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Thread: I fled the peace today

Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
# 10509

Posted

I fled the peace at our noonday Eucharist today.

This feels like more of an All Saints thread than an Ecclesiantics thread, but the only threads about the peace I've ever seen have been in Eccles, so here I am.

I'm usually fine with the restrained peace of a Sunday morning in the pews, shaking hands with a smile and a "peace be with you" with the people near me, and with the people for whom the peace is not complete without roaming up and down the aisles exchanging the peace.

And I had achieved a detente at our midweek service -- they have gotten out of the habit of rushing around hugging everyone forcibly at the peace, which I've always hated, and although they still all rush around and try to greet everyone, I have found that if I stay quietly in my place people will come up and shake my hand but not overwhelm me.

But today... I don't know. I haven't been to church all summer. And I've been through a bunch of religion-shattering experiences this spring, which resulted in me today feeling like an observer rather than a participant for most of the service.

And when the peace started, even though the first person to come towards me was our new rector, whom I love to pieces, I saw her outstretched hand, and I thought, I don't want to do this. So I shook her hand and tried to be civil (although I have a transparent face, so she's probably wondering what caused a look of horror to cross my face as she came up to me). Then I rushed out the side door and hid out down the hall until they were finished.

So, some questions:

Have you ever experienced anything like this? Had your usual reaction to the peace completely upended?

And whatever might be going on that caused this for me?

I don't think it would have happened at the Sunday service, which is more orderly, and where I'm protected by the pew from the rushers-about. This midweek service is conducted in an ad hoc chapel with chairs, and I always go into the peace a little fearfully at this service (I remember weeks and weeks in the past, when they were all aggressive huggers, of trying to hold people off with a straight arm, and being overwhelmed and hugged anyway). And all that fear seemed to rush back at me today, even though all my recent evidence is that it wouldn't be like that. But still I didn't want to stay, not even to stand and shake hands, which the rational part of my brain was telling me was all that would happen, and the rest of me was speaking back to that part of my brain and saying I don't even want to do that.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged

Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

Posted

The advice I heard for people who do not wish to shake hands or do any physical touching of others during the peace is to clasp one's hands in a prayerful position and nod or bow to indicate that you recognize them.

One of my churches prints an explicit instruction telling people to respect others with regards to the Peace. I think it is a good idea for churches to consider doing that as a gentle reminder.

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Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007 | IP: Logged

Japes

Shipmate
# 5358

Posted

One of the bonuses of being the organist is that I no longer have to dread the Peace, and is it going to be a bad reaction day. I tend to be messing around with music now if the very determined folk make their way to me on the grounds "We don't want you to feel left out.".

I had a particularly difficult few years where I had to remove myself completely from the building, and only returned when the next hymn has started, or I could hear the priest start again if it's a Said Eucharist.

I've used the hands in pocket technique, and the messing around finding the hymn one. I also smile and nod and say "Peace be with you". Which, works when people know you, I've discovered they don't work so well in a new place.

Worst experience had me writing to the vicar to explain why I couldn't tolerate masses of people around me trying to shake my hand or hug me, and he did deal with the worst offenders as well as doing a general reminder that the time for social chat was coffee time, not mid service.. Several of whom didn't get it, and tried suggesting I had "issues" that should be dealt with and they'd be happy to help me... I pointed out I had no such issues, but they'd find out they did if they carried on forcing themselves on me at the Peace.

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Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged

Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

Posted

Makes me want to climb the walls.

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Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

Posted

I'm generally not a fan and would struggle in a church that feels the need to do it every single week. As an introvert, I find it quite stressful and awkward, so if it seems that whoever is leading the service is about to ask us to turn around, I will normally nip out the back and hide in the loos for a couple of minutes.

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Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012 | IP: Logged

Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Have you ever experienced anything like this? Had your usual reaction to the peace completely upended?

No, but I don't tend to have reactions that pronouncedly. I like and approve of the Peace. However, I'm of a generation that was well into middle age before people started hugging each other all the time. So that doesn't come naturally to me. I'll put up with hugging those that insist on hugging me, but I don't do it spontaneously. I still squirm inside when some exuberant person I don't know all that well and don't feel comfortable with, leaps at me with their arms outstretched. But I assume they mean well and put up with it.

quote:

And whatever might be going on that caused this for me?

It's difficult to say because we've never met. Quite a lot of us hold back from enforced over-intimacy - particularly with those we don't actually know where we are with. You may just have that a bit more pronouncedly than the rest of us. Or it may be a symptom of something more serious that is inhibiting you from engaging with other people.

As a matter of interest, do you also feel irritated and uncomfortable by people with feely voices who give you the impression they are determined to project their emotion into your living space, as though somehow, if they can get you to feel what they feel and think you ought to feel, that you will therefore love them and agree with them? If so, I don't think that's abnormal either.

The points at which to get worried, is if you find yourself feeling superior to those that they hug one another, if you find yourself thinking they don't realise an inner truth about human relationships that you do realise.

quote:

I don't think it would have happened at the Sunday service, which is more orderly, and where I'm protected by the pew from the rushers-about. This midweek service is conducted in an ad hoc chapel with chairs, and I always go into the peace a little fearfully at this service (I remember weeks and weeks in the past, when they were all aggressive huggers, of trying to hold people off with a straight arm, and being overwhelmed and hugged anyway). And all that fear seemed to rush back at me today, even though all my recent evidence is that it wouldn't be like that. But still I didn't want to stay, not even to stand and shake hands, which the rational part of my brain was telling me was all that would happen, and the rest of me was speaking back to that part of my brain and saying I don't even want to do that.

I can't so much comment on this as I don't know your congregation, but one thing I would say, is this, and I think it's important.

I think you need to speak to your rector and explain to her exactly what happened, and why you suddenly rushed off. You say you love her to bits. I think therefore, you owe it to her to explain that 'it wasn't her'. Also you're one of her flock. She needs to know you have this anxiety. Also, she may turn out to be the one person who could enable you to start working through this.

And don't do this by writing a letter. That's OK for advice, or something you want somebody to be able to keep and refer to. But it's the wrong way of dealing with face to face issues between you and X. It is wrong for the person with the problem and is very difficult for the recipient. This needs to be talked.

Come what may, though, one doesn't have to switch suddenly from being a quiet, retiring, reserved person to an ebullient hugger, shouter and back-slapper. There's plenty of space in between these extremes to move around in.

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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008 | IP: Logged

Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

Posted

And so there should be. We should, too, be challenging this assumption that nobody could possibly object to being hugged. YMMV but in British culture- even its depraved post-Diana me-oriented sympathy-tweet and teddy-bear tied to railings bastardised form- it's a huge invasion of space. You wouldn't assume you could get away with it anywhere else (and if you were unfortunate enough to be a media sleb, you could in the current climate get into pretty serious trouble if you made a habit of it), so why are we embarrassed to confront it in church?

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008 | IP: Logged

mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

Posted

I struggle with people when I'm on a downer, and sometimes hide/pray in the toilet if the service is going very badly for me.

At my bro-in-law's 'installation' service in charge of a new church, I found myself in the unusual position of avoiding the peace with a close family member who has not spoken to me for getting on a year. Unlike my normal 'peace' reticence, this was perhaps useful - it reminds me that our relationship / peace is broken, and that this should not be.

The fact of the 'should not be' gives me no resources to change the situation in this instance. But it is as well to be reminded of a truth sometimes, and thinking about it now perhaps I could have shaken his hand and wished him peace, even as he wishes me harm. I don't know - it would take resources of grace which would need to come from Elsewhere.

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bib
Shipmate
# 13074

Posted

I will only shake hands with people either side of me and the person behind and in front. I've always felt there is no need to go dashing up and down the aisles greeting all and sundry. if someone approaches me I will often just nod my head and say hello or good morning. I would much prefer if we didn't pass the peace at all. I don't remember it happening at all in the 60s and then it appeared out of the blue without any by your leave. Who said we must have it?

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Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007 | IP: Logged

Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108

Posted

I don't intend to invalidate anyone else's experience, only to state my own, but I find these threads often become one-sided, so: a confession. I love the passing of the peace.

I'm usually with at least one close friend. My typical method is to shake the hand of whoever is a stranger in my pew first, hug anyone who is a particularly close friend/mentor of mine or whom I know likes hugging, shake the hands of a few more people in the pews around me, then return to my seat. I remain standing, shake anyone else's hand, and generally look peaceful.

It is an invasion of privacy and, as anyone on this thread can attest, can be quite triggering for an embrace to be forced on anyone. The Church should not be perpetuating the notion that other people own your body.

At the same time, the Peace goes a long way toward recognizing the importance of the worshiping community rather than the worshiping individual.

And, of course, it provides a useful stretch-break between the liturgy of the word and the liturgy of the table.

Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012 | IP: Logged

Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

So, some questions:

Have you ever experienced anything like this? Had your usual reaction to the peace completely upended?

And whatever might be going on that caused this for me?

Since you asked--

IANAP, but your reaction sounds very similar to my reactions right after I've gone through major hell psychologically. Things I used to be able to endure are suddenly unendurable. Like having a psychic bruise you can't bear people to get near. Take the unusual over-reaction as a sign that you are still healing, and be gentle with yourself.

And start plotting out strategic toilet breaks.

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Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged

Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

Posted

The peace isn't my favorite part of the liturgy either. I wish it could be confined to shaking the hand of the person next to you, smiling, saying "peace," and then being seated. Alas, every church I've served has been a touch feely parish that reveled in the passing of the peace. Changing that wouldn't be worth the effort or even possible. So, I wade into the congregation making sure to shake hands with everybody and hugging those who insist on being hugged.

However...

At my last parish, one of the wardens had two very attractive daughters. Both were older than me but by less than 10 years. The older one lived in another town and only came to church when her family visited her parents. When she did come to church, it was her purpose to hug and occasionally kiss everybody she knew. The first time she hugged and kissed me on the cheek I thought, "This touchy feely thing isn't always bad." Next time, she came to me, held out her hand, and said, "I know you don't like hugs." True enough in most cases. Couldn't very well say, "No, but in your case..."

Not the purpose of the peace, I know. [Hot and Hormonal]

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Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006 | IP: Logged

no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

Posted

I'm hugging Beeswax for certain if ever we meet -- okay not! I am on the same page about it. Announcing "Peace be with you" and the people responding "and also with you", is sufficient. You get 4 to 6 handshakes or greetings max. It should not be a social time, and it often is.

I think I posted in the past about a clergy who thought everyone should be hugged, and she nabbed the first time, and it troubled me throughout the balance of the eucharist and thereafter. I avoided it subsequently initially by avoiding the next one (it was at a church committee multiday thing), though did the hand out thing after. It is distracting when you must think about avoiding someone when thoughts should be elsewhere. A commandment along the lines "thou shalt not burden others with thy person" is required I think.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010 | IP: Logged

Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
At my last parish, one of the wardens had two very attractive daughters. Both were older than me but by less than 10 years. The older one lived in another town and only came to church when her family visited her parents. When she did come to church, it was her purpose to hug and occasionally kiss everybody she knew. The first time she hugged and kissed me on the cheek I thought, "This touchy feely thing isn't always bad." Next time, she came to me, held out her hand, and said, "I know you don't like hugs." True enough in most cases. Couldn't very well say, "No, but in your case..."

Not the purpose of the peace, I know.

You're not the first to recognize the problem!

quote:
Originally posted by Clement of Alexandria, "The Instructor," c. 150-215
"And if we are called to the kingdom of God, let us walk worthy of the kingdom, loving God and our neighbour. But love is not proved by a kiss, but by kindly feeling. But there are those, that do nothing but make the churches resound with a kiss, not having love itself within. For this very thing, the shameless use of a kiss, which ought to be mystic, occasions foul suspicions and evil reports. The apostle calls the kiss holy.

When the kingdom is worthily tested, we dispense the affection of the soul by a chaste and closed mouth, by which chiefly gentle manners are expressed.

But there is another unholy kiss, full of poison, counterfeiting sanctity. Do you not know that spiders, merely by touching the mouth, afflict men with pain? And often kisses inject the poison of licentiousness. It is then very manifest to us, that a kiss is not love. For the love meant is the love of God. “And this is the love of God,” says John, “that we keep His commandments;” not that we stroke each other on the mouth."

Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012 | IP: Logged

Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
# 10509

Posted

Thanks, all for sharing your experiences and ideas.

Enoch, thanks for the advice to talk to my rector. I don't usually react or notice the kind of overly emotional feely talking invasion you're describing, but I'll keep reflecting on what you've said.

Bostonman, my attitude towards the peace is usually pretty much like yours, which is why this was so surprising to me. I've occasionally avoided the peace at the midweek service before by strategically needing to visit the bathroom, but never with such an unexpectedly visceral reaction.

Lamp Chopped, I think you've pinpointed it. I hadn't realized how much trauma there is under the surface, both from things that happened this spring, but also stretching back years (this spring was like the eruption of a lot of stuff that I now see had a long history, in more ways than I realized at the time) but now that you've raised it as a possibility, I'm, like, "Oh! Yes!"

As you suggest, I'll be kind to myself, and I'll just plan to nonchalantly need to visit the bathroom right around the middle of the service. Oh my, that's right when the peace happens? What a coincidence!

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged

Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

Posted

Good luck with that one. If you get tired of the bathroom, I find that a heavily bandaged finger or hand works well, or an arm in a sling. [Devil]

Alternately, cough into a hankie and say, "I really don't want to give anyone a bug."

More seriously, though--you can let it be known that your doctor prefers you not to get too close to others due to medical problems (trauma IS a medical problem) about which you'd rather not go into detail, being a very private person and not wanting to burden others with your affairs, don't you see? That's no lie--I'm sure your GP/shrink/whatsit would advise avoiding the situation. And once you get it firmly into the heads of the worst offenders that there are mysterious unknown medical reasons (fragile bones? radiation therapy? who knows?), you can live in peace again.

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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged

betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

Posted

I'm sure there was a huge thread on this subject about 6 months ago, but I can't find it.

As I think I said at the time, I'd ban it tomorrow.

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And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013 | IP: Logged

Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Good luck with that one. If you get tired of the bathroom, I find that a heavily bandaged finger or hand works well, or an arm in a sling. Alternately, cough into a hankie and say, "I really don't want to give anyone a bug."

More seriously, though--you can let it be known that your doctor prefers you not to get too close to others due to medical problems (trauma IS a medical problem) about which you'd rather not go into detail, being a very private person and not wanting to burden others with your affairs, don't you see? That's no lie--I'm sure your GP/shrink/whatsit would advise avoiding the situation. And once you get it firmly into the heads of the worst offenders that there are mysterious unknown medical reasons (fragile bones? radiation therapy? who knows?), you can live in peace again.

[off topic] I love the Ship. [/off topic]

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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

...As you suggest, I'll be kind to myself, and I'll just plan to nonchalantly need to visit the bathroom right around the middle of the service. Oh my, that's right when the peace happens? What a coincidence!

It's either that, or take up playing the organ! [Smile]

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Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006 | IP: Logged

ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

Posted

Hmmm.

I understand both the people who want to be huggy and the people who don't.

You could always say "peace be with you" to your immediate neighbors and then kneel down and pray silently for the rest of the time. [Smile]

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Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
# 10509

Posted

From my experience with other postures of "I am not participating at this time", that would lead to concerned hands on my shoulders and being talked to for twice as long to check that I'm OK, along with perhaps a "Oh, I just need to give you a hug quickly, because I see that you don't want to participate extensively right now."

Whoops, is my cynicism showing?

Thankfully (and rather amazingly, come to think of it), no-one has followed me out the door and down the hall when I've escaped that way. Hey, I'm feeling better already: thank God for small mercies like this.

That's interesting: the peace at this service, while a big hullaballoo in which everyone tries to greet everyone else, is actually perceived by people as being strictly circumscribed in space and time (that is, besides not chasing me down the hall, also no-one ever tries to catch up on the missed peace after the service. Phew).

[ 05. September 2014, 22:14: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged

Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965

Posted

I like the passing of the peace too. But though I am in general a touchy huggy person I do as I was taught as a child and stand still and shake the hands of all those in arms length. Without walking anywhere.

I don't really mind if other people want to wander about though. (My congo has large number of people from Carribbean & Africa and now that permission seems to have been given to be a bit less strait laced they have embraced the wandering about with gusto.)

What I loathe though as it seems so liturgically wrong is when epode will hug or kiss the people they know well and shake hands with those they don't. It's the passing of a sign of peace, not a meet and greet.

And for those who live without partners or children it may be the one bit of physical contact with another human being.

(Sorry AR, think sidetracked from your OP. Sorry to hear about your experience, others have posted sensible responses, I hope they help. Your rector sounds like she will be understanding.)

[ 05. September 2014, 22:50: Message edited by: Yangtze ]

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Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged

Cameron PM
Shipmate
# 18142

Posted

My parish priest views it as some sort of annual treaty of Versaille renewal so it's absolutely "imperative" that he hops up and down through the church shaking hands with the women and the willows. It's just not my style. I don't know why I wasn't at peace before shaking hands.

I just don't do it, plus, I'm the organist as well so I just glance over and nod at my aunt or my cousin this and that, then start an air.

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Posts: 59 | From: Talamh an Eisc | Registered: Jun 2014 | IP: Logged

Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

Posted

Yangtse:

quote:
What I loathe though as it seems so liturgically wrong is when epode will hug or kiss the people they know well and shake hands with those they don't. It's the passing of a sign of peace, not a meet and greet.

I enjoy a touchy-feely peace, too. But I understand hugging people whom you know would welcome a hug from you and giving a little space to those whom you don't know as well. If I don't know their tolerances, I'll offer a gentle hand, a greeting and a smile. I know that there are those like folks up-thread for whom a little contact goes a long way. The only thing I'd have trouble with would be someone picking and choosing only their friends to greet warmly while giving really cursory greetings to others.

Another thing that bugs me is to receive the peace from someone who won't take a moment to look me in the eye while doing so, but is already looking past me to find their friends. Those folks often seem to be the types that mistake the peace for coffee hour and a chance to catch up on the latest. [Roll Eyes]

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Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged

Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341

Posted

I do not like the service screeching to a halt so everyone can make the rounds. I especially dislike the hugging. I find it invasive and over the top. A handshake with the people next to me and behind and in front of me is plenty. I've gone to several churches (ECUSA) and all of them have made a big production out of the peace. I am not a touch-phobic or unaffectionate person but I do not like feeling forced into sharing affection I may not feel.

It wasn't like this in the ECUSA churches I attended growing up in the dark ages (1960s). The rector said "The peace of the Lord be always with you" and the congregration responded "and also with you." That was sufficient then, and IMO is sufficient now.

I'm between churches. I'd like to find one where the peace doesn't devolve into a meet and greet, as was stated up-post.

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Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged

ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

Posted

Thank goodness that it's not part of our liturgy and/or practice. We have many abused (and one or two abusers ) in the church and given some of the comments from women on this and other threads, I think that the peace can amount to an invitation of groping for some people. Mrs M who is a very kind, gentle and pastoral soul, hates the matiness of it all.

I absolutely abhor it (I don't welcome invasion of my personal space anyway) and I think it's theologically suspect. You shouldn't even get to church if there isn't peace between you and someone. Show the sign if you must when you first meet, not halfway through a liturgy.

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009 | IP: Logged

ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

Posted

I take what's said above about avoiding it - but it is very hard and some people are very persistent. I've found that sitting head down in prayer and/or reading the bible is no deterrent to hardened peace givers.

A gropers charter? perhaps. But it can mean an unsafe environment for some, and rejection for others which makes them feel that God doesn't care if the church doesn't. Who's gonna hug the tramp, the family who are very "different", the single older man, the stranger, the prostitute .... yep we have them all.

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009 | IP: Logged

Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068

Posted

I am one of the churchwardens and we sit at the back, so having passed the peace with those around me I go and stand at the back table where the elements are waiting to be brought up. Thus I can avoid the general free-for-all and make sure two people (if not we as churchwardens) are ready to take up the elements.

If people approach me then I will smile and respond, but I've given up joining in the scrum. My fellow churchwarden generally disappears into it. What is irritating me more and more is that people (including the clergy) are still chatting and greeting when the organist starts playing the next hymn...so I start singing loudly!

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Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006 | IP: Logged

chive

Ship's nude
# 208

Posted

I try to sit somewhere at least three pews away from anyone else although that's easier during a weekday mass. I call this my peace exclusion zone. I then kneel with my head in my hands during the peace. I try to simultaneously give off 'deeply prayerful' and 'don't fucking come near me' vibes at the same time. I've also spoken to the more promiscuous paxers in the congregation and told them never to touch me.

Yes, that may be overkill but I cannot handle the peace. I have PTSD. Being touched by strangers freaks me out. Not in an 'I don't like this' way but in a 'this will probably cause a panic attack and leave me so shaken I won't be able to go to work tomorrow' way.

I understand the point of the peace but I just can't cope with it and if a congregation is really inclusive as opposed to just mouthing of about it they need to learn that people have their fuck ups, disabilities, oddnesses etc and they should respect it.

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Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

Abigail
Shipmate
# 1672

Posted

As the most introverted of introverts I probably should hate the whole idea of the peace, but when done in a reasonable way I do quite like it these days. When I first started attending church 20 or so years ago I really couldn't cope with it at all and would sit in my seat, eyes down, unable to move. I gradually progressed to standing up and smiling, though still rooted to the spot, and then slowly found myself able to join in in the 'expected' way.

These days, due to the way things are done at my church (which I have described here - http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=007970;p=5#000202 - if I've done it correctly) I endure it rather than enjoy it.

But the point above about it possibly being the one bit of physical contact with another human being is a good one - that's pretty true for me and although I often feel awkward with physical contact there are times when I really welcome a hug during the peace.

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The older I get the less I know.

Posts: 505 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged

IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

Posted

One easy solution is to go to a Latin (Tridentine, 1962er, Extraordinary, Old Usage, ...) mass. The sign of peace will then be this happening up front in the sanctuary, and only this.

Interestingly though, the peace has been an occasion for strife forever, and the Tridentine "blink and you will miss it" solution was actually a break with tradition to restore some sanity. A short and (as far as I know, and I do not know much about liturgy and history...) accurate summary is given here.

Personally, I'm all for the reintroduction of kissing a pax-brede! [Big Grin]

The one good thing I have to say about the modern "handshakes with everybody in reach" pax is that children from about four to twelve years old tend to love it, and that it often is pretty much the only time they get engaged with mass.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004 | IP: Logged

Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
From my experience with other postures of "I am not participating at this time", that would lead to concerned hands on my shoulders and being talked to for twice as long to check that I'm OK, along with perhaps a "Oh, I just need to give you a hug quickly, because I see that you don't want to participate extensively right now."

Sadly, not even Christianity can exclude stupid (albeit kind and stupid) people from participating. Even more sadly, when people are being stupid in different ways from the kinds of stupidity we can put up with (or the kind of stupidity we perpetrate ourselves) it can be very annoying - like inappropriate touch, words, or liturgical responses. Of course, I have a vested interest in saying this. If the practice and ceremonies of Christianity didn't allow stupid, insensitive and clumsy people to take part I wouldn't've had anything to do either as a lay perrson or a minister.

I've certainly had my moments of 'fleeing' church in various ways (and not just particular elements of the liturgy) - metaphorically and physically. IMO, it's natural and maybe even useful for reflection and re-assessment.

From your OP it sounds like there's a whole lot of other stuff going on apart from a sudden aversion to shaking hands or to people being inappropriately nice during worship. But as you say, it's not All Saints. So I'll stick with suggesting you're maybe having a kind of de-construction of your religious experience of worship at the moment - which is probably no bad thing; though it may actually be quite disturbing and upsetting for now.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP: Logged

Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

Posted

Exactly Chive!

There have been times in the past when it's taken most of my energy just to be at church, let alone pass the peace.

Fortunately the church I attend now only has the passing of the peace sometimes and then it is a handshake, rather than a hug.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002 | IP: Logged

MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228

Posted

I - and I expect many other Aspies - cringe at the sign of the peace.

My usual strategy is to find someone with whom I am very comfortable (usually someone I have known for 30 years), and then engage them in a conversation, so that I miss out on all the other greeting. Occasionally someone who is aware of my discomfort will come and volunteer to be the "shield person" (not with a literal shield, although that would be a great idea).

I find unsolicited touch quite offputting. In any case, I am often very stressed at the start of church, and it takes time to wind down and relax. That is not a good time to be loading the stress of social interaction onto me.

Moral: church is often unsafe for Aspies, and also for people with misophonia (people bring hot drinks into church, and sometimes stir them noisily before the service has quite begun; that is like giving me an electric shock).

Overall, I find Sundays one of the most stressful days of the week because of church. Yet the meditation group in the evening - where 5-7 people sit together in total silence for 30 minutes - is great: no triggers.

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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade

Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005 | IP: Logged

deano
princess
# 12063

Posted

I don't think anyone actually likes it. From reading the thread it seems most folks put on fixed grins, offer a quick handshake to a few people roundabout and mutter "peace be with you".

Fair enough. I do exactly the same. I'm usually the Crucifer at church, so it tends to be quick handshakes with the Rector, accolytes etc.

If it were scrapped tomorrow I don't there would be many tears shed in my church and probably from many others.

How did this detested piece of the service come about? Has it always been in services or is it a modern thing?

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006 | IP: Logged

Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I'm usually the Crucifer at church, so it tends to be quick handshakes with the Rector, accolytes etc.

What? You don't do liturgical embraces? [Ultra confused]

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged

deano
princess
# 12063

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I'm usually the Crucifer at church, so it tends to be quick handshakes with the Rector, accolytes etc.
What? You don't do liturgical embraces?

What the [insert Hellish language of choice here] are liturgical embraces?

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006 | IP: Logged

Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
# 10509

Posted

Anselmina says: a kind of de-construction of your religious experience of worship at the moment

Yes, I think that's accurate. I hadn't thought in those words. This kind of thing is why I was interested to volunteer to cohost with Schroedinger's Cat the Eighth Day proposal for those who have lost their faith. I haven't lost the core of what's important to me, and I'd even call what I have faith and assert firmly that I'm a Christien. But it bears no resemblance to anything I've ever absorbed either consciously or subliminally about what faith is.

Several years ago I learned that Greek pistis in the NT would be better translated "trust" rather than "belief", and I keep trying to remember to do a thorough-going re-experiencing of all the places where "belief" is used, replacing it with "trust", and thinking it would make those passages work better for me and my own experience of faith. But yesterday (the day after fleeing the peace) I realized, hell no, I don't trust God or Jesus, at least not in any of the ways I think I've absorbed about what that trust is supposed to be about.

If I could figure out how to frame that as an All Saints thread I would. My inability to do that is another reason I'm interested in the Eighth Day proposal, because there I feel this kind of discussion would fit in and I wouldn't have to figure out how to make any sense of it enough to make it some sort of query, which I think is what stops me from posting in All Saints.

But if you have any All Saints-y type advice or observations, I'd love to hear it. PM me if you prefer.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged

Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How did this detested piece of the service come about? Has it always been in services or is it a modern thing?

It's a modern thing that was suddenly inflicted on us at some point during the era when I'd stopped going to church. I came back and found it in place.

I'm guessing a liturgical embrace is a holy hug.

Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How did this detested piece of the service come about? Has it always been in services or is it a modern thing?
It's a modern thing that was suddenly inflicted on us at some point during the era when I'd stopped going to church. I came back and found it in place.

It's actually very, very old, because it's a liturgical bit that's shared between the Eastern and the Western church.

In many Orthodox churches, the peace is shared by the clergy with each other in the altar, and by no one else. Those are typically parishes where the congregational responses are sung by the choir or a chanter, and woe be to any mere parishioner who decides to join in.

But parishes that have congregational singing also generally have congregational sharing of the peace. The usual form is a handshake with two (Greek) or three (Russian) air kisses, while exchanging the appropriate greeting for the liturgical season.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged

Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I'm usually the Crucifer at church, so it tends to be quick handshakes with the Rector, accolytes etc.
What? You don't do liturgical embraces?
What the [insert Hellish language of choice here] are liturgical embraces?

It's certainly not something that merits that kind of language!

Look here at 57:13 through 58:00 and LEARN!

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged

Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

Posted

I wonder sometimes about the reach of culture in this. In anglophone churches the default seems to be uneasiness which can manifest itself in over-eagerness; but in Spain and in Portuguese congregations in Canada, I have found the Peace is exchanged in a warm and non-threatening manner. I am concluding we just can't do it.

Normally I attend an 8.30 or 8.00 where it is much less likely to happen and, when it does, it is usually without the coffee-hour aspect. Sitting a distance from others helps. Still, small children really like it, and don't seem to bring agendas of insanity to it, and somehow bring the grace which adults simply do not seem to be able to do.

And even this getting-on-in-years males has twice been groped during the Peace. This is one of the most inappropriate venues for being butt-squeezed. While I am impervious (while angry) to such things, knowing that there are everywhere parishioners who have had bad experiences, I cannot imagine the distress this must cause them. It seems to be rather more widespread than we would like to think and clerical friends of mine have experienced inappropriate over-enthusiasm.

Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

Posted

Pox tecum! from IngoB's link! [Killing me]

My practical prophylaxes and responses to mashers during the Peace are these.

1. Take a place at a distance from the crowd.
2. Don't position myself with my back to the wall or where I can't step back from the masher.

3. I never allow the masher to hug me, even if it turns awkward for both of us. I can't be hugged if my hand is stuck straight out at their torso.
4. If the masher attempts to maneuver past my hand to consummate the "wrestler's clinch," I move my out-thrust arm and hand to intercept them.
5. If that doesn't work, I step back.

6. If in a parish not my own, after I have shaken the hands of those immediately surrounding me, I sit down.
7. Each and every time—without exception—I sit down after I have shaken hands.
8. Even if I see another person hot on the heels of my most recent hand-shaker, I still sit down. Even if it's the priest.
9. Then I stand up to greet this new potential masher.
10. The act of standing up actually clears space around me. I'm in motion, generally in the direction of the one approaching me; they can't approach too closely until I've finished unfolding my body to a standing position. By that time my hand is well extended, protecting my personal space.
11. This repeated standing up and sitting down for each identifies me as someone slightly odd; it sets people a little off balance.

12. If I'm a regular at the parish, I tell those I'm closest to (definitely not the repeat masher-huggers) that I prefer to only shake hands.
13. Then when I merely bow to those I've spoken to, they get the point and stop approaching to shake my hand and bow back.
14. The mashers will never get it.
15. I don't really care if they take offense.

16. I fortunately am acolyte at a parish where the liturgical kiss is performed similar to Amanda B. Reckondwythe's and IngoB's links. This ceremonial is easy to bear because the only body touching is two hands on the corresponding elbows, and two hands lightly on the corresponding upper arms. We must be 'Russian', for we are of the two-bob variety, while the 'Greeks' in Amanda's video bob once only.

17. And, with Augustine the Aleut, I always greet children. Always before the adults who may be milling around. It sets the adults in their secondary place and reduces the potential for mashing behavior.

[ 06. September 2014, 16:44: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged

Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
# 10509

Posted

What is going on when I am using words from international conflict like "detente" in my description, and The Silent Acolyte has to have a 17-step procedure to deal with it? I usually find the Pauline epistles frustrating and difficult to understand, but gosh we could use a strongly worded missive from St. Paul on how to express the idea that we are at peace with each other.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged

agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555

Posted

Doesn't St Paul already tell us to respect scruples that we do not share?

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Refraction Villanelles

Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011 | IP: Logged

Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
# 10509

Posted

I'm not sure that helps us here. To try it in Pauline language:

If I hug someone who doesn't want to be hugged, do I not then offend their scruples? But if I refuse a hug from someone who thinks hugging is important, do I not then offend their scruples? So whether I hug or whether I do not hug, someone's scruples are offended. Ah, wretched self, who will deliver me from this body of contradiction?!

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged

The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

Posted

Indeed, what is going on?

The reasons are manifold:

1. There is a manifest lack of awe in worship today. We treat the synaxis, the divine service, sacred mysteries, the holy supper, the transcendent conversion of mundane things into Holy Things—have I made my point?—as though we were at a school assembly, a sporting contest, parade.

These, now, are the only times when we civically assemble. Inaugurations are out: we gather around the tee vee in our bathrobes to watch the leader of the free world assume office. But then, we don't even gather around the tee vee any more. We solipsistically gaze into our hand-held devices in an omphaloskeptic haze of unknowing.

As a society we know longer how to gather, let alone gather with reverence. But, we sure know how to tweet and text like demons.

2. We provide inadequate, nay, appalling training for priests, who behave no better than their flock, for they, too, have rent and gas bills to pay and so descend to the vulgar lever of the ones they are called to instruct (vide supra for conclusive testimony).

3. There is a general debasement of social intercourse, where policemen whom I have never seen before and will likely never see again, address me by my Christian name, when I can only reply saying, "Officer", or by using the surname displayde on their uniform. It is becoming a society where every one is supposed to be friendly and welcoming.

4. When we don't capitulate to this agressive 'friendliness' we are treated as a kook, asocial at best, sociopathic at worst, when seen it's probably wise to take the children in hand.

5. But, woe betide the person who merely touches a child in their charge on the shoulder, the priest or layperson who comforts a grief-stricken parishioner with a welcomed hug in a private moment of consolation or counseling.

Then the entire apparatus of the "Safe Church" and "Protect the Children" Culture comes swiftly down on the offender like the Hammer of God.

Touching behavior we would not tolerate, that the culture views as positively criminal, in schools, hospitals, in the rector's office, in counseling settings, we embrace with an ignorance of the spiritual damage the behavior wreaks.

ETA: AR, "Whether I hug..." [Killing me]

Two emoticons in one day!

[ 06. September 2014, 19:31: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001 | IP: Logged

Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I don't think anyone actually likes it. From reading the thread it seems most folks put on fixed grins, offer a quick handshake to a few people roundabout and mutter "peace be with you".

Not many people like going to the dentist, either. But it is an important discipline. The peace is a powerful reminder that there is a coming time when resentments will end, that those we hate we will one day learn to love (even if they went on earth to Westboro Bappo) and that there will be that reconciliation that is eternal and beyond comprehension.

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004 | IP: Logged

georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294

Posted

Those of us 'of a certain age' can emulate the (probably mythical) elderly lady whose response to 'Peace be with you.' was 'I don't do that sh*t!'

They'll think you're a crank, but maybe they already do anyway. [Big Grin]

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You can't retire from a calling.

Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006 | IP: Logged

The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

Posted

An important discipline, indeed, Zappa. Yet, I still break out in rousing song: