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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Following Orders (gamergate the Hell version)
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Would you explain then?
I find it perfectly understandable that some people have valid reasons to criticise some aspects of computer games, for example for the manner in which some of them portray women. Similar criticisms could be expressed in relation to other parts of the entertainment industry, and indeed western societies more generally. And, of course, we could have a serious discussion about the validity of those criticisms. Some people will find those criticisms unfair, that they reflect only a very small minority of games and people playing them, that the industry as a whole is improving and sorting out failings. And, that would be a reasonable discussion.
What I can't understand or comprehend is a reaction, even by a very small minority of people, that would be a criminal offense. Threats of physical assault or damage to property over criticisms of some aspects of some games is a response that I just can't fathom. And, certainly is a response that I can't imagine any reasonable person condoning.
Now, I admit not having followed this thread in detail. But, it seems to me that Wood's OP was basically a "WTF is this about?", similar to my paragraph above. Which has created a discussion that has mostly been reasonable, more or less following my first paragraph - with some discussion of related issues thrown in (there were a few points where things stepped beyond that, notably Alex getting all worked up about women oppressing and bullying him).
But, I still don't see why Ingo got so worked up about the issue. He stated he's no longer a frequent player of computer games, and has no direct current personal connection to the #gamergate issues. I find it difficult to believe that he's actually wanting to defend the actions of people who credibly threaten physical violence against someone else. But, he seems to have got himself worked up about something Wood had said, and I can't work out what that is - which is unusual as Ingo is usually tediously clear (in that I've understood him in his first sentance but he feels the need to spend another 3 paragraphs explaining the point in meticulous detail).
IngoB can of course speak for himself. But I'll try to explain why his reaction makes sense to me. Warning: rambling and some connections you may find difficult to follow ahead.
I was trying to find a thread from earlier this year - May? June? where IngoB posted some of his personal experiences of being the victim of RL violence. I think it may have been called Rape Culture, but it appears to have been moved to Oblivion and my google-fu is failing me at the moment. I'm not sure if you read it, but if not I think it might help you make more sense of his response.
Anyway.
I don't know IngoB IRL. I've never met him, I have no idea how he talks to or treats the women in his life. All I've got are words on a message board, which for all I know could be written by someone who is completely misrepresenting himself and what he thinks and feels or what his experiences have been etc. For all I know IngoB could be a woman.
I know that when IngoB first joined the Ship he got called to Hell a whole bunch of times. IIRC it was often for misogyny (either being a misogynist or coming across as one). Some of which was, IMO, caused by his adherence to the doctrines of the Catholic Church and the fact that there are (or were) a lot of Shipmates who view the doctrines of the RCC as inherently misogynistic.
I finally joined in on the umpteenth Hell call because it seemed to me that his tone was a little too aggressive for a lot of people to handle - he sometimes came across as if he was describing his own experiences in an objective scientific way while discounting the experiences of others. Which doesn't go over well with people who have had their RL thoughts, opinions, experiences, etc. dismissed as unimportant and not worth caring about.
I don't know if RL changed him or he just proved himself a generally decent human being on the Ship (and someone who tends to sound like he's being more aggressive than he really is; or someone whose bark is worse than their bite), but the Hell calls eventually tapered off.
In the US, IME, class trumps gender. In other words, IngoB and I might fight about gender sometimes and whether or not he's taking my point of view into account etc. But if we both belong to a class of people who seem to be being treated badly, then we will generally disregard our gender differences in favor of fighting a class war. It's like when siblings squabble and then unite because a neighborhood kid is teasing one of them.
IRL, I went to a high school where we had to worry about things like this happening. In the US the middle class is constantly telling the poor and working class that violence is never the solution to anything and is never acceptable.
And yet, when we don't act the way they want us to act, they use state-sanctioned violence on us.
But it's not criminal or illegal when they do it. Because. (Because they made the rules and don't necessarily want anyone who doesn't currently have power and money to obtain it).
As Doublethink said in the trolls thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I think we have all been rude in our time hence criminalising rudeness, would be to criminalise everybody. Which is unlikely to be of general benefit to society.
But rudeness and/or poor taste, are not the same things as making credible threats of violence.
If you threaten to run me over with a combine harvester, I am unlikely to believe you or fear you. If you publish my address and say you are going to come round my house with a hammer - I am going to be a lot more worried by your threat.
The cultural divide in the US right now is such that a rich white woman could have a poor black man thrown in prison for a very long time if she claimed that he looked at her funny.
I know the cases that have made the international news have been about the ridiculous application of the Stand Your Ground laws (Trayvon Martin and the like) but most Americans do believe that everyone is entitled to a certain amount of self-defense and that defending yourself against a credible threat is allowed.
I didn't read anything IngoB said as an approval of the tactics of a minority of gamers. But then you have this:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I can't believe how disappointed I am in this post.
Simply, no. Just no.
Yes, there are a few bad apples, but the proverb doesn't go "a few bad apples means everyone else is fine."
The majority of gamers not caring about this #gamergate nonsense (or even knowing about it and simply being better than that) is not a reason not to care about it.
And the fact that this vocal and toxic minority have made a big deal about wishing harm on someone like Anita Sarkeesian for daring to make YouTube videos that saying nothing other than women are often represented harmfully in video games, here are a few ways, suggests a nerve of some sort has been hit.
Much of this gamer culture has become a thing in the last decade, and when you get the young men who are supporting a movement that is founded by men who threaten rape and murder calling their victims "bullies" in the same breath and doing so in vast numbers, you have to think of other minority movements in history that gained traction in the same way.
With all that it implies about gamers and geek culture. And that's after Wood saying, in his opening post:
quote:
I came out of the experience finding it hard not to view "geeks" and "geek culture" as things worthy of anything but my contempt.
Who doesn't jump for joy when called upon to defend an entire culture that one belongs or has belonged to? Particularly when there don't seem to be any other members of that culture onboard the Ship?
And yet... What are the gamers and geeks supposed to do about the problems being caused by a small minority? Threaten violence to the gamers who are threatening violence to the women in tech? Create another twitterstorm by posting #notallgamers which, like #notallmen would probably get shouted down as 'men making it all about them when women are just trying to tell them about their experience'? Which, maybe they know something about, because maybe they listen to the women in their lives and those women have had similar experiences?
Wood and some of the other posters on that thread seem to be long on criticisms but short on solutions. And it's the assumption of bad faith that probably annoys the most.
(Although I have to say that IngoB's post did not come across as particularly angry to me - I mean he may have been sitting on the other side of his computer turning red with rage but in my world that's just the way people talk sometimes).
Did that make any sense?
If not, just watch Muppets Most Wanted. Or read this.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Which part?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I was trying to find a thread from earlier this year - May? June? where IngoB posted some of his personal experiences of being the victim of RL violence. I think it may have been called Rape Culture, but it appears to have been moved to Oblivion and my google-fu is failing me at the moment. I'm not sure if you read it, but if not I think it might help you make more sense of his response.
The Rape Culture thread included some posts that raised adminly concerns, and it was removed from the boards. Which is why you couldn't find it. Ingo did not post on that thread (another Shipmate did, however post experience of RL violence), so you are mis-remembering something. Which, it seems likely, would result in your mistakenly reading something into what Ingo said on the #gamergate thread.
quote:
I know that when IngoB first joined the Ship he got called to Hell a whole bunch of times ... but the Hell calls eventually tapered off.
I think because most people who Ingo rubbed up the wrong way with his debating style got bored of banging their head against a brick wall. Although there are plenty of things within the Catholic Church to find objectionable (there are also plenty of things in all other churches to find objectionable) I don't recall any times Ingo was called to Hell because of Catholic beliefs, rather the calls were about how he would express his beliefs. Most people come here to discuss issues, we tend to take badly to people who come across as exclusively here to teach (there is value in that, of course, because if we're to discuss something we need to understand it, and that may need someone to teach), especially when they do so in a rather pompous and condescending manner. But, Ingo isn't going to change and we all have better things to do.
quote:
In the US, IME, class trumps gender.
But, Ingo is German. Wood is British. I know both of these are true, because I have met both of them. So, US expectations are irrelevant. Even more so as, to the extent that class still exists in Europe, both Wood and Ingo would be in effectively the same class (white, male, similar age, university educated with higher degrees) and also in a similar class to the gamers and others who are the subject of discussion on the #gamergate thread.
So, if I've understood your long rambling post, your main points in trying to explain Ingo's inexplicable outburst are based on:
- Something you thought he'd said on a thread that has long since been pulled. In which you were mistaken, attributing something someone else said to Ingo (who never posted on that thread).
- An assumption that US issues with class, race etc apply to a discussion between two Europeans.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
IRL, I went to a high school where we had to worry about things like this happening.
Just noting that this link didn't seem to work correctly for me. It went to the Baltimore Sun, but then came up with a message that it couldn't direct me to the particular story.
I'm unsure as to why. Is there a paywall involved?
orfeo
Hellhost
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It's a story about some students arrested over a fight in the cafeteria, to which the police were called to restore order. Quite why that is relevant to the #gamergate thread or what Ingo posted there is entirely unclear. Even if we accepted the premise that everyone in the world is basically American with all the cultural baggage and issues that entails, it's difficult to see the relevance of a fight in a school cafeteria.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The Rape Culture thread included some posts that raised adminly concerns, and it was removed from the boards. Which is why you couldn't find it. Ingo did not post on that thread (another Shipmate did, however post experience of RL violence), so you are mis-remembering something. Which, it seems likely, would result in your mistakenly reading something into what Ingo said on the #gamergate thread.
And yet I don't think I'm mistakenly reading into what Ingo said on the #gamergate thread. I think I'm correctly reading things that others are mistakenly reading into.
I may have the thread title wrong, but I'm fairly sure that Ingo did post somewhere about reaching the age of sexual maturity and having to be wary of random violence. Ingo is free to show up and tell me that I'm wrong and he did no such thing. But as much as I'm willing to admit that sometimes I'm human and fallible and wrong, I'm not really in a place where I'm going to accept a thread being removed for adminly concerns as proof that something never happened.
quote:
quote:
I know that when IngoB first joined the Ship he got called to Hell a whole bunch of times ... but the Hell calls eventually tapered off.
I think because most people who Ingo rubbed up the wrong way with his debating style got bored of banging their head against a brick wall. Although there are plenty of things within the Catholic Church to find objectionable (there are also plenty of things in all other churches to find objectionable) I don't recall any times Ingo was called to Hell because of Catholic beliefs, rather the calls were about how he would express his beliefs. Most people come here to discuss issues, we tend to take badly to people who come across as exclusively here to teach (there is value in that, of course, because if we're to discuss something we need to understand it, and that may need someone to teach), especially when they do so in a rather pompous and condescending manner. But, Ingo isn't going to change and we all have better things to do.
A) Isn't that what I just said?
B) How can you simply accept that Ingo does these hateful things with these hateful rhetorical strategies and yet still belongs in the Catholic communion without calling him out on it?
quote:
quote:
In the US, IME, class trumps gender.
But, Ingo is German. Wood is British. I know both of these are true, because I have met both of them. So, US expectations are irrelevant. Even more so as, to the extent that class still exists in Europe, both Wood and Ingo would be in effectively the same class (white, male, similar age, university educated with higher degrees) and also in a similar class to the gamers and others who are the subject of discussion on the #gamergate thread.
And as I said at the beginning of my post:
quote:
IngoB can of course speak for himself. But I'll try to explain why his reaction makes sense to me.
In other words, I'm trying to make sense out of his behavior from my perspective as an American. I am not trying to tell either of them why or how or whatever they are motivated to say and do the things they say and do - I'm simply trying to make sense of it given my knowledge of the world. In which case, my knowledge of how things work in the US is relevant, because it colors how I look at the exchange.
Also, Mary Doria Russell, _The Sparrow_:
quote:
He stopped talking, deeply embarrassed. Giuliani could never understand the price scholarship boys paid for their education: the inevitable alienation from your uncomprehending family, from roots, from your own firs person, from the original "I" you once were.
Yeah, the lie that class doesn't exist anymore. They've managed to feed that one to a lot of Americans too.
quote:
So, if I've understood your long rambling post, your main points in trying to explain Ingo's inexplicable outburst are based on:
- Something you thought he'd said on a thread that has long since been pulled. In which you were mistaken, attributing something someone else said to Ingo (who never posted on that thread).
- An assumption that US issues with class, race etc apply to a discussion between two Europeans.
Oh, yeah. The outburst (which, frankly, it's a stretch to call an outburst) was based on those things.
Now, where's that brick wall.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Even if we accepted the premise that everyone in the world is basically American with all the cultural baggage and issues that entails, it's difficult to see the relevance of a fight in a school cafeteria.
It's called compulsory schooling.
We're regularly required to show up to a place where violence is likely. And violence (of the state-sponsored kind) is also likely if you don't show up.
You want us to see how your social security net and other programs are superior while ignoring the actual problems we're facing on a day-to-day basis.
It's difficult not to see the relevance.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
B) How can you simply accept that Ingo does these hateful things with these hateful rhetorical strategies and yet still belongs in the Catholic communion without calling him out on it?
He has been called out on it. Repeatedly. It avails naught. He has insulated himself with a double-wrapping of his own arrogance and nothing can get through.
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
It's difficult not to see the relevance.
Not for me.
[ 22. October 2014, 03:34: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
My favourite bit was when he said he was ignoring me so now I could talk to the void.
The void being defined as "everything other than Ingo," presumably.
That's all I have to say.
[ 22. October 2014, 06:15: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I don't think I'm mistakenly reading into what Ingo said on the #gamergate thread. I think I'm correctly reading things that others are mistakenly reading into.
A load of people read what Ingo wrote and formed a conclusion. You read the same posts, formed a completely different conclusion about Ingo. You think you are not mistaken in your reading. Well, I don't think I'm mistaken either. But, at least I'm willing to accept that I may be mistaken (which, of course, doesn't mean you're right - we could both be wrong).
quote:
I may have the thread title wrong, but I'm fairly sure that Ingo did post somewhere about reaching the age of sexual maturity and having to be wary of random violence ... I'm not really in a place where I'm going to accept a thread being removed for adminly concerns as proof that something never happened.
I can't prove something never happened. I can say that IngoB never even posted on the Rape thread, let alone posted what you remember him saying. If you don't believe me, tough. Because I can't show you the thread. Maybe one of the other Admins could corroborate my statement (if they can be bothered to).
Of course, Ingo could have said what you've claimed on another thread. But, given that he's usually reluctant to base his arguments on personal experience (prefering cold hard logic and objective data) I would be surprised if he'd done so.
quote:
A) Isn't that what I just said?
No, you said Ingo was called to Hell for the (perceived) misogyny of the Catholic Church. I said he was called to Hell because his posting came across as arrogant, rude and condescending, and that he seemed incapable of accepting any other viewpoint as being valid. He came across as someone with all the correct answers and his duty in life was to teach us.
quote:
B) How can you simply accept that Ingo does these hateful things with these hateful rhetorical strategies and yet still belongs in the Catholic communion without calling him out on it?
As has been said, he was called out for it. That's what the Hell calls were all about.
quote:
I'm trying to make sense out of his behavior from my perspective as an American. I am not trying to tell either of them why or how or whatever they are motivated to say and do the things they say and do - I'm simply trying to make sense of it given my knowledge of the world. In which case, my knowledge of how things work in the US is relevant, because it colors how I look at the exchange.
Surely trying to make sense of an exchange between two non-Americans would be easier if you tried to put yourself in their shoes. Because the exchange didn't happen from an American perspective, but a European one. If your knowledge of the world doesn't extend beyond the borders of America then that's your problem. It's also a problem easily solved - you ask questions. Like "this exchange doesn't make sense from my American perspective, what am I missing?" ... though in this case you'll have got an equally perplexed response from Europeans because Ingo's reaction didn't make sense to us either!
quote:
Oh, yeah. The outburst (which, frankly, it's a stretch to call an outburst) was based on those things.
No, my points were not about the outburst, but about your reaction to it. I know Ingo seems to think everything is all about him, you don't need to join him in thinking it's all about him. In this case, it's about you.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Even if we accepted the premise that everyone in the world is basically American with all the cultural baggage and issues that entails, it's difficult to see the relevance of a fight in a school cafeteria.
It's called compulsory schooling.
We're regularly required to show up to a place where violence is likely.
...
It's difficult not to see the relevance.
We have compulsory schooling too. And, many people will testify that British schools are not free of violence either.
So, you claim it's relevant. Because there is violence in American schools, therefore it's OK for a small number of gamers to credibly threaten violence against others?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
My favourite bit was when he said he was ignoring me so now I could talk to the void.
The void being defined as "everything other than Ingo," presumably.
That's all I have to say.
I'm pretty sure that referred to at least one or two video games. Not that having basic knowledge of video games, or the capacity to google, would be required to make snide remarks about how rude he is for ignoring you on a thread about video gaming.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by An die Freude:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
My favourite bit was when he said he was ignoring me so now I could talk to the void.
The void being defined as "everything other than Ingo," presumably.
That's all I have to say.
I'm pretty sure that referred to at least one or two video games. Not that having basic knowledge of video games, or the capacity to google, would be required to make snide remarks about how rude he is for ignoring you on a thread about video gaming.
I like you. You're funny.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
I may have the thread title wrong, but I'm fairly sure that Ingo did post somewhere about reaching the age of sexual maturity and having to be wary of random violence ... I'm not really in a place where I'm going to accept a thread being removed for adminly concerns as proof that something never happened.
I can't prove something never happened. I can say that IngoB never even posted on the Rape thread, let alone posted what you remember him saying. If you don't believe me, tough. Because I can't show you the thread. Maybe one of the other Admins could corroborate my statement (if they can be bothered to).
Of course, Ingo could have said what you've claimed on another thread. But, given that he's usually reluctant to base his arguments on personal experience (prefering cold hard logic and objective data) I would be surprised if he'd done so.
I have no god in this race, but I think I know what thread saysay is referring to. I believe I read that same thread. It was one that turned into being about men's stories of experiencing violence, probably from starting out about the #notallmen controversy or something similar.
If I am thinking of the right one, it had amongst other things IngoB writing an example of how men are subjected to male violence and for example how a woman would be able to notice men's constant caution on the way they look whenever they meet someone in the dark, carefully spotting to see whether it was one or several persons and of what gender. This is meant for thread recognition, not to support saysay's point - but I am pretty sure I've read the same thing from IngoB, albeit I too cannot find it on either ship or Google.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Now this is all sorted out, I don't think bringing this up is very fair on Ingo.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I expect there is a Scale of Motifications available to RCs on which having your character defended by saysay ranks somewhere around sisal underwear.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
I think also if either Ingo or me were interested in starting a Hell call, we'd have done it.
And yeah, that's a bit rich after I got in a cheap parting shot about an aspect of the exchange (if you can call it that) that amused me, but, well. Nobody's perfect.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by An die Freude:
I have no god in this race
Even the atheists are joining in!
quote:
, but I think I know what thread saysay is referring to. I believe I read that same thread. It was one that turned into being about men's stories of experiencing violence, probably from starting out about the #notallmen controversy or something similar.
I've just had a quick look through threads from around the period in question (April-July this year). In addition to the rape culture thread there was "men being abused by women" thread, which (again) Ingo didn't post on. There was a thread on porn where we were treated to some very dull posts by Ingo on the internet viewing habits of men (apparently we don't watch internet videos all the way through, but scroll back and forth looking for the bits that particularly titilate us. I never knew that), and some comparisons between porn and boxing/martial arts (as in both are forms of entertainment where voyeristic audience members watch people getting physical with each other). Those posts almost sent me to sleep.
But, I could find nothing like what has been reported here on any thread in Oblivion with a likely looking subject for those few months. Feel free to look at older threads if you think it was before April.
Needless to say an argument based on something you think someone said when you can't find a source for that is not very compelling. Especially when it isn't actually all that relevant anyway. Regardless of someone's history, there is no excuse for lashing out at someone else in Purgatory.
Now, would you believe me if I said I do have things that need doing? OK, they're the tedious parts of work - but I guess you might have figured that out.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
Ingo has never struck me as someone who needs someone else to argue his corner or hold his coat. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Given that Ingo is German, the title is poor taste at best and deeply offensive at worst! An apology would be in order.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Ingo has never struck me as someone who needs someone else to argue his corner or hold his coat.
Certainly not.
But also he is evidently not playing this game either, and that is both admirable and suggests that the point of this thread is moot. quote:
Given that Ingo is German, the title is poor taste at best and deeply offensive at worst! An apology would be in order.
Tubbs
I don't think saysay had a clue about Ingo's nationality. I think he wanted to talk about the exchange and felt people were ordered to take it here.
The guy might have stuff to apologise for but not that, although it is pretty unfortunate.
[ 22. October 2014, 11:38: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Who's on first?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Who's on first?
What's on second, I hear.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Ingo has never struck me as someone who needs someone else to argue his corner or hold his coat.
Certainly not.
But also he is evidently not playing this game either, and that is both admirable and suggests that the point of this thread is moot. quote:
Given that Ingo is German, the title is poor taste at best and deeply offensive at worst! An apology would be in order.
Tubbs
I don't think saysay had a clue about Ingo's nationality. I think he wanted to talk about the exchange and felt people were ordered to take it here.
The guy might have stuff to apologise for but not that, although it is pretty unfortunate.
Indeed. I still can't tell whether or not Alan's been called to Hell or what? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Sorry, for not noticing the Ship reference one and going straight for a real life one. My bad. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
I still can't tell whether or Alan's been called to Hell or what?
Sorry, for not noticing the Ship reference one and going straight for a real life one. My bad.
Tubbs [/QB]
I thought I was being called to Hell.
Yeah, look at me, making it all about me, but come on! It's only the second time I've ever had a Hell call and the first time the caller didn't even know who I was!
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
This could be like, the one-size-fits-all hell call. Anyone longing for a hell call of their very own could glom on to it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I am Spartacus.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I know you are missing the UKIP thread, but its closure is no excuse for shitting all over this one.
Get to the point. Whatever it is.
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by An die Freude:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
I may have the thread title wrong, but I'm fairly sure that Ingo did post somewhere about reaching the age of sexual maturity and having to be wary of random violence ... I'm not really in a place where I'm going to accept a thread being removed for adminly concerns as proof that something never happened.
I can't prove something never happened. I can say that IngoB never even posted on the Rape thread, let alone posted what you remember him saying. If you don't believe me, tough. Because I can't show you the thread. Maybe one of the other Admins could corroborate my statement (if they can be bothered to).
Of course, Ingo could have said what you've claimed on another thread. But, given that he's usually reluctant to base his arguments on personal experience (prefering cold hard logic and objective data) I would be surprised if he'd done so.
I have no god in this race, but I think I know what thread saysay is referring to. I believe I read that same thread. It was one that turned into being about men's stories of experiencing violence, probably from starting out about the #notallmen controversy or something similar.
If I am thinking of the right one, it had amongst other things IngoB writing an example of how men are subjected to male violence and for example how a woman would be able to notice men's constant caution on the way they look whenever they meet someone in the dark, carefully spotting to see whether it was one or several persons and of what gender. This is meant for thread recognition, not to support saysay's point - but I am pretty sure I've read the same thing from IngoB, albeit I too cannot find it on either ship or Google.
For what it's worth, I remember it too. He was having an exchange of views with RuthW. I think it was on the thread that grew out of the Elliot Rodger shootings/stabbings - but I have no idea what the title of that thread was.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
For what it's worth, I remember it too. He was having an exchange of views with RuthW. I think it was on the thread that grew out of the Elliot Rodger shootings/stabbings - but I have no idea what the title of that thread was.
I think this is what you're looking for.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I don't think saysay had a clue about Ingo's nationality. I think he wanted to talk about the exchange and felt people were ordered to take it here.
The guy might have stuff to apologise for but not that, although it is pretty unfortunate.
Oh, for fuck's sake Wood. You started the thread, which means presumably it's a topic you're interested in. Since you replied to at least one of my posts, I'll assume you read it, and possibly also the other posts I made on the thread. It's not that difficult to figure out that I am not a man.
And I did know IngoB was German. I apologize for the thread title and any insult that was given.
And now you want me to watch a video so I can understand what you're talking about?
You're making me a libertarian.
(And I hate you for it.)
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I don't think saysay had a clue about Ingo's nationality. I think he wanted to talk about the exchange and felt people were ordered to take it here.
The guy might have stuff to apologise for but not that, although it is pretty unfortunate.
Oh, for fuck's sake Wood. You started the thread, which means presumably it's a topic you're interested in. Since you replied to at least one of my posts, I'll assume you read it, and possibly also the other posts I made on the thread. It's not that difficult to figure out that I am not a man.
And I did know IngoB was German. I apologize for the thread title and any insult that was given.
And now you want me to watch a video so I can understand what you're talking about?
You're making me a libertarian.
(And I hate you for it.)
I'll apologise for not realising you weren't a man. But you don't get to call me on issues of reading composition.
[ 22. October 2014, 22:50: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Or even comprehension. Stupid phone.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
But you don't get to call me on issues of reading composition.
Can we call you on issues of writing composition? Oh wait, it's your phone. You know what they say about a workman and his tools.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
For what it's worth, I remember it too. He was having an exchange of views with RuthW. I think it was on the thread that grew out of the Elliot Rodger shootings/stabbings - but I have no idea what the title of that thread was.
I think this is what you're looking for.
I never followed that thread, so missed those comments. Though the post Ruth linked to doesn't really support the original assertion of being subject to random violence - Ingo quite clearly states that part of being subject to violence related to his identification with particular groups, and when he stopped being so visibly identified as a member of those groups and hanging out in certain places the threat of violence receded.
But, I still don't see the relevance. Unless, of course, you want to say that if you clearly identify yourself as a critic of some aspects of computer games then it's OK for you to be subject to violence (real, and credible threats of real, violence rather than playing a multi-player fantasy game where your character will face violence from roaming bands of orcs).
It's an interesting argument. If you live in a culture where violence is common - whether that's in US school cafeteria or punks walking the streets of German cities - that makes violence acceptable. saysay, is that really what you are claiming? And, if not, what relevance does Ingo's past, or random fights in school cafeteria, have?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
This thread is decidedly weird.
As was the Purgatory thread, where apparently stating explicitly and loudly why you are angry about something / somebody results in the complete mystification of some people why you are angry about something / somebody.
So, let's clear that up, if we can...
I wouldn't call myself a gamer, usually, but by the standards of SoF I'm probably about as good a representative of gamers as you are going to get.
Wood wades in and launches a grand attack on gamers and gamers culture (and potentially geekhood for good measure) based on #Gamergate's mistreatment of some feminists. I spend a good many posts explaining patiently why that is about as sensible as attacking Christianity over Fred Phelps. (A comparison that I incidentally explicitly made on the thread... presumably adding to the total mystification of some.)
Lo and behold, quite a number of people do get it. And not just my usual fans. But not Wood, oh no. Because there are the #Gamergate idiots, apparently everybody who likes to exercise their hand-eye coordination with a computer has a problem and we absolutely must get to the bottom of it. He insists, being very disappointed in me.
At which point I tell Wood that he is being an annoying idiot in just barely Purgatorial terms. Apparently failing, since we get some hostly action which de facto shuts down further dialogue. But not before Alan gets in a post or two about how all this is so terribly mystifying. Somehow.
Anyway. Gamers are enough of my crowd and gaming is an important enough part of my life (in particular of my past life) that I feel protective of this community. I know enough of these people, of who they actually are and what they actually do, to know that Wood is simply talking out of his ass in projecting #Gamergate onto them. The gamers that I know and have known - and I have known some up to semi-professional levels because once upon I time I was good enough to hang with that crowd - simply have no more to do with #Gamergate than any other grouping of mostly young men dedicated to a high performance activity. Let's say in a soccer club.
Anyway, we are talking here about perhaps a couple of hundred people that I have personally known socially over the years, from the dudes that hosted a dozen of us for a cool two day LAN party in their parents summer house with accommodation, beer and pizza free of charge - when I was barely out of high school - to my colleague now who is the Director of our Neuroimaging facility, a top student of Noah Chomsky, my senior in several ways and a console game fiend. Heck, the nine year olds around here are having these lengthy discussions of Minecraft mods... Gamers. Good people. Not Gamergaters.
So, well - fuck off, Wood. And presumably - fuck off, Alan, too. Though while I think Wood is being a dickhead, I just have no idea what Alan's problem is. He seems to have somehow lost his reading comprehension and is blaming me until I can find it for him again. Weird.
[ 23. October 2014, 00:05: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though the post Ruth linked to doesn't really support the original assertion of being subject to random violence - Ingo quite clearly states that part of being subject to violence related to his identification with particular groups, and when he stopped being so visibly identified as a member of those groups and hanging out in certain places the threat of violence receded.
And yet there are those who argue that being identifiable as a woman puts you in that group, thus giving you the choice between being identifiable as a woman and being subject to that sort of threat.
quote:
It's an interesting argument. If you live in a culture where violence is common - whether that's in US school cafeteria or punks walking the streets of German cities - that makes violence acceptable. saysay, is that really what you are claiming?
In a way. Thus far I have heard absolutely no one defend the real and credible threats to these women gamers. Mostly people seem to be fighting over what the fight is actually about.
However, self defense is allowed and is not usually described as 'violence.' But given that people describe violence differently, as well as what constitutes a credible threat of violence, as well as what constitutes a reasonable amount of self-defense, it leads to a certain amount of confusion.
For example, I once walked out of my apartment to find a black woman walking down the street towards me. She was holding a pipe, using one hand to bang it against the open palm of her other hand. She asked me if I was scared of her, if I thought she was going to attack her. I said I hoped she wasn't, but the way she was holding and banging the pipe concerned me, because I didn't know if it meant that she was about to attack someone, or if she was trying to make sure people knew that they shouldn't mess with her. Someone else might have called the cops and reported her for menacing or some such.
Thus, as I said earlier, in the US a poor black man can be arrested for looking at a rich white woman wrong if she reports that she was threatened. However, most reasonable non-racist people would not conclude that a black man simply looking at a white woman was in some way threatening her. Not that they would have the opportunity, because our criminal justice system is so broken, but that's a tangent.
Many of the both male and female gamers I have known have gotten impatient with some women claiming that they're being threatened when their peer group does not agree. Not knowing Ingo, I attributed his reaction to a similar impatience.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
This thread is decidedly weird.
That's something we can agree on.
Now for the rest ...
quote:
I wouldn't call myself a gamer, usually, but by the standards of SoF I'm probably about as good a representative of gamers as you are going to get.
And, bythe same standards Wood himself confessed to being a gamer - in his case D&D rather than video games, but there are (I think) some similarities.
quote:
Wood wades in and launches a grand attack on gamers and gamers culture (and potentially geekhood for good measure) based on #Gamergate's mistreatment of some feminists. I spend a good many posts explaining patiently why that is about as sensible as attacking Christianity over Fred Phelps. (A comparison that I incidentally explicitly made on the thread... presumably adding to the total mystification of some.)
Lo and behold, quite a number of people do get it. And not just my usual fans. But not Wood, oh no. Because there are the #Gamergate idiots, apparently everybody who likes to exercise their hand-eye coordination with a computer has a problem and we absolutely must get to the bottom of it. He insists, being very disappointed in me.
Of course, Woods OP was an attack on the minority within the gamer community (and, he himself suggested that such a label may not be appropriate anyway) active in #gamergate and similar. And, yes there was an attack on large parts of the rest of the gamer community for letting this happen largely unchallenged. I can entirely see why Wood was disappointed in your response.
You introduced Phelps to the discussion. Let's look at that analogy. We all agree that Phelps was a nasty piece of work, unrepresentative of the Christian faith, and frankly a disgrace to the Church and to Christ. And, because of all the publicity he got his actions were reflecting badly on the rest of us - we were getting branded as homophobic, lunatic bigots because that was the face of "Christianity" that Phelps got on the TV screens. The response of other Christians was to quite vocally stand up and say "he doesn't speak for us", counter protests where Phelps and his family turned up as well as considerable internet chatter (long running thread here included).
Compare that with your description of gamers. They're only interested in the game. They're unaware of #gamergate, their response to hearing about it is "huh? what? where?" and "who gives a shit". Which was exactly (as I read it) the point of Woods initial criticism of gamers - that the decent majority were silent and apparently uninterested when a vocal minority was dragging the entire industry and their leisure activity through the mud.
You'd even admitted that one of the main focuses of the criticism of games, the portrayal of women, had validity quote:
you get your scantily clad "trophy women" with big boobs in some games.
. You just simply dismiss it as not that important.
And, you wonder why Wood was disappointed in you?
quote:
At which point I tell Wood that he is being an annoying idiot in just barely Purgatorial terms.
barely Purgatorial?
You pull a statement from the OP four pages before that sat there providing context to the argument Wood was making (ie: that a) Wood had background in the gaming industry, albeit it not computer games, and b) that the sort of reaction shown in #gamergate isn't new) and misquote it back as being the motive for his reaction to a minority within the community that he still has connections with. You think it's OK in Purgatory to accuse someone of posting solely to have their outrage (which you clearly consider misplaced, as though it's OK for a minority of people to credibly threaten physical harm to others and for the majority to stand quietly aside to let this happen) affirmed? And, you feel it's OK to make that accusation based on a misquote of something said four pages before? Really?
quote:
Apparently failing, since we get some hostly action which de facto shuts down further dialogue.
Yes, well that'll happen. Not surprisingly Wood took a personal attack on him personally and responded (he probably should have responded in Hell, but we're none of us perfect - I probably should have brought my spat with saysay to Hell as well). The hosts did what hosts do and told everyone to quit or take it to Hell.
quote:
But not before Alan gets in a post or two about how all this is so terribly mystifying.
Though my posts followed your continuence of the argument with Wood, after the hosts told you to stop it. One thing I find mystifying is how you got away without someone mentioning Commandment 6.
Frankly, I am still mystified how you can appear to dismiss the #gamergate and related stuff so easily, as though it isn't an issue that the gamer community shouldn't be actively countering. I was even more mystified when saysay tried to explain it, because that made even less sense than your original statements.
quote:
Gamers are enough of my crowd and gaming is an important enough part of my life (in particular of my past life) that I feel protective of this community.
Then you should be joining Wood on the barricades and declaring that #gamergate etc is damaging the gamer community and rallying the community to expose this minority as the unrepresentative bad apples that they are, rather than let the world think they represent a large constituency within the gamer community.
quote:
So, well - fuck off, Wood. And presumably - fuck off, Alan, too. Though while I think Wood is being a dickhead, I just have no idea what Alan's problem is. He seems to have somehow lost his reading comprehension and is blaming me until I can find it for him again. Weird.
Actually, though I find your position incomprehensible (see above) my biggest problem is probably with saysay, who seems to be living in an entirely different universe (without, apparently, the excuse of spending too many hours immersed in some computer generated fantasy land)
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Compare that with your description of gamers. They're only interested in the game. They're unaware of #gamergate, their response to hearing about it is "huh? what? where?" and "who gives a shit". Which was exactly (as I read it) the point of Woods initial criticism of gamers - that the decent majority were silent and apparently uninterested when a vocal minority was dragging the entire industry and their leisure activity through the mud.
Does this mean that viewers of movies and TV shows need to take interest in whatever shenanigans take place on the production lot? Just wondering.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Actually, though I find your position incomprehensible (see above) my biggest problem is probably with saysay, who seems to be living in an entirely different universe (without, apparently, the excuse of spending too many hours immersed in some computer generated fantasy land)
Ah. I see. I should have taken your "would you explain" question as disingenuous based on your reputation as a hateful tricky bastard intent on keeping us all under Colonial Rule.
Won't make that mistake again.
(And you're wrong - I do spend too much time in the computer generated fantasy land of the Ship).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
[...] your reputation as a hateful tricky bastard intent on keeping us all under Colonial Rule.
One of the more interesting accusations leveled against Alan recently. Though I have been chafing under many yokes lately, that of Alan's Colonial Rule is not one of them.
I would be interested to know more.
[ 23. October 2014, 02:07: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I wouldn't call myself a gamer, usually, but by the standards of SoF I'm probably about as good a representative of gamers as you are going to get.
Wait, I thought you didn't get into gaming much these days? Am I the only World of Warcraft addict here? (Maybe that's not enough to be a "gamer." God knows I encounter people on WoW who seem to do nothing else but level up ten million characters.)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
saysay: quote:
...your reputation as a hateful tricky bastard intent on keeping us all under Colonial Rule.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
[...] your reputation as a hateful tricky bastard intent on keeping us all under Colonial Rule.
One of the more interesting accusations leveled against Alan recently. Though I have been chafing under many yokes lately, that of Alan's Colonial Rule is not one of them.
I would be interested to know more.
Erm... wasn't it meant as a joke? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
Didn't seem it to me; the exchange between AC and saysay felt a little heated, and frankly saysay is generally pretty angry and borderline-incoherent, so I have trouble telling.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, bythe same standards Wood himself confessed to being a gamer - in his case D&D rather than video games, but there are (I think) some similarities.
These communities certainly have some overlap, but they are also far from identical. For one thing, the D&D community is much, much smaller. Furthermore, Wood has not identified himself as being a computer gamer, and I'm not sure that he would call himself a D&D gamer. I'm not re-reading the entire thread to see if he ever did. But from the OP we just know that he did contract work for this community, which is a rather different thing. (Though it likely indicates some familiarity with these games.)
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
You introduced Phelps to the discussion. Let's look at that analogy. We all agree that Phelps was a nasty piece of work, unrepresentative of the Christian faith, and frankly a disgrace to the Church and to Christ. And, because of all the publicity he got his actions were reflecting badly on the rest of us - we were getting branded as homophobic, lunatic bigots because that was the face of "Christianity" that Phelps got on the TV screens. The response of other Christians was to quite vocally stand up and say "he doesn't speak for us", counter protests where Phelps and his family turned up as well as considerable internet chatter (long running thread here included).
I had never consciously heard of Phelps until I started frequenting SoF. I very much doubt that he played a major role in shaping perceptions of Christianity even in the USA, but certainly not in Europe. It is good and proper that some people took up the case against him. It is also complete tosh to wish for the entirety of Christianity to bother about him. Heck, even the pope doesn't need to be on every Christian agenda every day. The vast majority of Christians had not fucking clue that Phelps even existed, and that is perfectly fine.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which was exactly (as I read it) the point of Woods initial criticism of gamers - that the decent majority were silent and apparently uninterested when a vocal minority was dragging the entire industry and their leisure activity through the mud.
Except they don't. Not that they don't dive into mud with abandon, but they are simply not big enough to drag the juggernaut of gaming anywhere. They are a fart in cyberspace, perhaps bigger and stinkier than others but not more. And there's a lot of really bad stuff out there on the internet. #Gamergate is not some super-expectional badness that should shock us all by its novelty. Again, I am a gamer - at least more than Wood and I'm guessing you. But #Gamergate barely registered. In fact, the only thing that I did eventually remember was having watched Sarkeesian's videos before, presumably because of having read some article in the (online) press.
Now, if you would focus on saying that the gaming community has a problem because feminist critique doesn't particularly arrive, then that would have been a reasonable point. Because the juggernaut of gaming stomps happily onward ignoring those impulses, too. But it is precisely not #Gamergate that matters. And anyway, it is not really true either. The direction of travel has been shifting, quite likely simply because there are more and more women in gaming. If you play a recent popular game like say Dota 2, then you will find a good number of non-bullshit female heroes.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
You'd even admitted that one of the main focuses of the criticism of games, the portrayal of women, had validity quote:
you get your scantily clad "trophy women" with big boobs in some games.
. You just simply dismiss it as not that important. And, you wonder why Wood was disappointed in you?
It is not so important because it is in fact not that common, and where it occurs it is for the most part a kind of game score. Yes, that is a problem, because, yes, it objectifies women. But no, it is not a deep problem, because quite frankly if you replaced the trophy woman with big boobs by dropping a hat that your character can wear then you would be way more successful as software publisher. (No, I'm not joking, getting cool, special hats is a complete obsession for Team Fortress 2 players - which is a really big game.) Yes, there is some lazy sexism but it is just not something that somehow is crucial to gaming. Also see my point about gaming stories being "pulp fiction" barely hiding the games' challenge mechanics, for the most part. And my point about stories being tuned for player identification with the character, players who until recently were in the vast majority men. Etc. In fact, I said many things about this, I did not at all simply dismiss it as unimportant.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
You pull a statement from the OP four pages before that sat there providing context to the argument Wood was making (ie: that a) Wood had background in the gaming industry, albeit it not computer games, and b) that the sort of reaction shown in #gamergate isn't new) and misquote it back as being the motive for his reaction to a minority within the community that he still has connections with.
From the OP: " I was active on internet forums during this time, and by the time I quit, I was sick of it, and the thing that burned me out more than anything else, the thing that absolutely soured me and robbed me of any enjoyment was the behaviour of the fans. ... I came out of the experience finding it hard not to view "geeks" and "geek culture" as things worthy of anything but my contempt." That's not some statement about professional insight, that's a statement about emotional bias. Well, at that point I came to the conclusion that this was exactly what was shaping Woods reaction to #Gamergate.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
You think it's OK in Purgatory to accuse someone of posting solely to have their outrage (which you clearly consider misplaced, as though it's OK for a minority of people to credibly threaten physical harm to others and for the majority to stand quietly aside to let this happen) affirmed? And, you feel it's OK to make that accusation based on a misquote of something said four pages before? Really?
I paraphrased the OP quite accurately, if of course in an attacking manner. I have distanced myself multiple times from any threats that were made, and indeed explicitly sided with Sarkeesian on concrete details of her critique - which presumably would put me onto #Gamergate's shit list. What I have said on the thread in many ways is the following, to quote myself from that thread: "These are apparently some gamers doing nasty things. By all means, condemn them for that, but don't pretend that they are representative or a majority." That does not tell people to simply shut up, does it now? I do not have the agenda that you were - and still are - reading into my posts.
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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though my posts followed your continuence of the argument with Wood, after the hosts told you to stop it. One thing I find mystifying is how you got away without someone mentioning Commandment 6.
Well, the hosts correctly judged that I was not continuing the "personal attack", i.e., that I was not banging on about the emotional bias that Wood appears to have in this matter due to his trauma with the D&D fans. Because, well, I wasn't doing that. (In fact, I even could have discussed Wood's trauma further if I had wanted to, just without explicitly claiming it as bias. Eliab allowed that. But I didn't.)
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Frankly, I am still mystified how you can appear to dismiss the #gamergate and related stuff so easily, as though it isn't an issue that the gamer community shouldn't be actively countering. I was even more mystified when saysay tried to explain it, because that made even less sense than your original statements.
I said nowhere that it is wrong to counter #Gamergate, quite to the contrary. I merely pointed out that this is not a defining problem of gaming, as Wood tried to present it.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Then you should be joining Wood on the barricades and declaring that #gamergate etc is damaging the gamer community and rallying the community to expose this minority as the unrepresentative bad apples that they are, rather than let the world think they represent a large constituency within the gamer community.
I happen to think that feeding trolls is stupid, and that fighting heavily armed trolls should be avoided if one can. Starve them off oxygen, and watch them go to sleep and die. If the Vatican had issued a daily bulletin contra Phelps, do you think that Phelps would have minded? I bet he would have celebrated that with a bottle of champagne! It is one thing to stage an appropriate counter-protest if Phelps tries to land in your vicinity, it is quite another to try to wage a publicity campaign against him. That would just have given him the air time that he craves.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Wait, I thought you didn't get into gaming much these days? Am I the only World of Warcraft addict here? (Maybe that's not enough to be a "gamer." God knows I encounter people on WoW who seem to do nothing else but level up ten million characters.)
Naw, you probably are a gamer. It's actually a big part of my point that there are so many gamers. Anyway, I'm currently racing towards 300 hours of play time in Crusader Kings 2. But there was a time when I had to make a conscious decision between playing / developing games, and actually studying / working. And, well, occasionally sleeping. Studying / working and occasionally sleeping won, but it was a close call...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I had never consciously heard of Phelps until I started frequenting SoF. I very much doubt that he played a major role in shaping perceptions of Christianity even in the USA <snip>
Based on what? You don't live here, you don't have to deal with co-workers reacting to news about Phelps and associating it with your religion. Ignorant, self-righteous jackass.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I had never consciously heard of Phelps until I started frequenting SoF. I very much doubt that he played a major role in shaping perceptions of Christianity even in the USA, but certainly not in Europe. It is good and proper that some people took up the case against him. It is also complete tosh to wish for the entirety of Christianity to bother about him. Heck, even the pope doesn't need to be on every Christian agenda every day. The vast majority of Christians had not fucking clue that Phelps even existed, and that is perfectly fine.
Well, you were fortunate not to have encountered Phelps and his band of adventurers. I can only remember one occasion when his loathsome group was mentioned in conversation outside church/Ship settings, but it is (IME) generally accepted by many people that Christians (evangelical Christians in particular) are Phelps-like loonies. Perhaps it's much more of a problem for Evangelicals than it is for Catholics, but Phelps (and some others) have made it very difficult for Evangelicals to be respected because of association by many non-Christians with the lunatic fringe. Of course, we're not going to spend every waking hour campaigning against Phelps et.al., but it's not something we can dismiss with a simple "so what?".
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which was exactly (as I read it) the point of Woods initial criticism of gamers - that the decent majority were silent and apparently uninterested when a vocal minority was dragging the entire industry and their leisure activity through the mud.
Except they don't. Not that they don't dive into mud with abandon, but they are simply not big enough to drag the juggernaut of gaming anywhere.
I never claimed the #gamergate group were dragging gaming anywhere (anymore than Phelps etal are dragging the Christian church anywhere), but the are dragging the perception of gaming through the MUD.
quote:
Again, I am a gamer - at least more than Wood and I'm guessing you. But #Gamergate barely registered.
I wouldn't claim to be a gamer. I sometimes play CivIV (single player mode, offline) but that's about it, especially as I can't get my copy of Baldurs Gate to run on my computer. I do enjoy playing board games, but that needs someone to play against.
I hadn't heard the specific #gamergate tag, nor would I have recognised any of the names raised in the Purg thread. But, I was aware of threats against critics of some games, the OP of the thread wasn't entirely new to me. Maybe there had been previous things on the Ship, or Facebook, maybe I'd read something on the technology pages of BBC News, maybe it had had a mention in Big Bang Theory (computer, and board, gaming has been the feature of several story lines) maybe I'd heard something in relation to cyber-bullying. I don't know, but it had registered somewhere in my brain that there were people who had been threatened by gamers because they'd criticised aspects of some games.
quote:
I happen to think that feeding trolls is stupid, and that fighting heavily armed trolls should be avoided if one can. Starve them off oxygen, and watch them go to sleep and die.
Well, there are trolls and there are trolls. Some seek attention, and not feeding them is enough for them to get bored. Others are nasty bits of work who will actively pursue an agenda regardless of whether they get a reaction, in which case they need to be exposed to hard light of day and petrafied.
Besides, from what I've seen the people issuing credible threats are not what I would call trolls anyway. They're nasty, brutish, bullies. Ogres, if I was being kind. And, there are times when you need to fight a band of fully armed ogres, you just need to make sure you're doing so within a group with the right equipment and skills. I've played enough games to know you don't get the big treasure without a fight against some monster or group of bad guys.
.
[yes, I know. I should have used Preview Post, then my code wouldn't have been so badly screwed]
[ 23. October 2014, 05:06: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
The reason why I stopped posting regularly on Ship of Fools all those years ago is because I came to a realisation that arguing on the internet was making me into a horrible person in a way that it never has with someone like Alan. That realisation hit me again last night.
It doesn't matter how right I believe I am, if I can't say anything without behaving like an asshole, I shouldn't.
So for my sanity's sake I'm taking another break from the forum. Sorry.
[ 23. October 2014, 06:59: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961
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Posted
I'm sorry to hear that, Wood. Don't take too long as you are one of the few posters I enjoy reading partly because of the even-handed way you discuss issues.
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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.
If only.
Posts: 1660 | From: A Fleeting moment | Registered: Jul 2004
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