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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Weak or no faith but still active at Church?
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
This is me.
My faith in God is very weak, small, shaky - I doubt just about everything. But I still have a position at Church. I still attend every Sunday. I have told no lies, the Minister knows where I stand, faith-wise but is happy with my work and not worried about my lack of faith (I think she thinks it's just a phase - maybe it is)
I love the people and sense of community - that's what keeps me there.
My Dad was the same towards the end of his life - and he was the Minister! Once retired he never stopped attending Church - it had been his life and he wasn't giving up on it just because he'd pretty much given up on God.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I'm in the same place in life, Boogie. Questioning many things. Crossing my fingers while reciting the Creeds. If the church could come into the 21c., I would be pleased. We need a new Social Gospel.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
No sure what your denominations are. None of us are likely exactly at the same place, but your posts resonate with me. I have many less answers now than in the past. I think a lot of times I have listened to people who seem much more certain with a certain envy, and have hoped that I might obtain some of it.
However, I'm coming around to the idea that it doesn't matter as much what I precisely hold to be true or believe. More important is what I do, both in the rhythm of daily routine, and in accord with comforting and comfortable practices and words.
I do kind of object to the title of this thread in terms of "weak". I'm not sure it is a weak position when it has been sorely tested. Can the commitment be strong with some level of reasoned non-acceptance, grave doubts or not caring about the belief/faith part? Why not? I should assert that this may be a strong position, and perhaps a very sensible one.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I am Anglican.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think a "weak faith" doesn't mean a weak person, or a weak commitment to this position. It just means that it is maybe more tenuously held, more open to change, less dogmatically stuck to.
I think this can be a strong position.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Hi Boogie
I can identify with your OP - I lost my faith entirely for several years, and kind of clung on to church (just about) over most of that time - mostly from bloody-mindedness and a sense of duty.
During that time I talked with an old minister who said something like 'whatever comes back, won't be the same as what you lost'. I thought that was a well-meant platitude - but it turned out to be very. very accurate.
What I lost didn't work / wasn't true in me any more, if it ever was. What came back is hard-won, and I can testify to it strongly - it really is *my* witness, FWIW.
Your OP is *your* witness. All this is excellent IMV, since we are not pretending to anyone else's witness. Even 'I miss feeling like such-and-such for this-and-that reason' - is a true witness.
Church is still a struggle, a duty, and often somewhat orthogonal if not actually in antithesis to my faith, but there we are.
All the best.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I'm sorry - I am sure I sound like a right smug twat. I didn't mean it like that, but hey. Sorry.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I'm sorry - I am sure I sound like a right smug twat.
You didn't come across that way at all imo - simply exploring your experience, which is what we are here for, I think.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
More important is what I do, both in the rhythm of daily routine, and in accord with comforting and comfortable practices and words.
This resonates with me. I find the old hymns especially comforting, even 'tho I don't believe many of the ideas they convey any more.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I find the old hymns especially comforting, even 'tho I don't believe many of the ideas they convey any more.
I find it helpful to remember that there are drinking song lyrics to many of them. Or at least this is what I've been told. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
I'm not sure I'd self-describe as having a weak faith, although in GLE terms I probably do and always have had, as I've never really been able to do the whole emotional throw-yourself-all-in kind of thing (which may just be a false perception of where others are at, of course).
Currently I'm in a weird place where I still have a fundamental belief in God/Jesus/Spirit, but struggle with a lot of the peripheral stuff/cultural outworkings of that around 'church' and 'faith' that appears to be considered axiomatic but just doesn't actually tie up.
This leads to a weird duality. On the one hand, I'm very involved (provide extensive IT support to the church office; heavily involved in organising and delivering the music side, and in leading services; sucked in to all kinds of other stuff as Someone Who Can). On the other, I don't entirely feel that I belong, or that I fully subscribe to what I suspect others assume I do. Resisting the urge to say "But that's all just bollocks, really, isn't it?" in meetings gets harder as time goes by!
I sometimes think that being closely involved and also in that mental space is actually kind of helpful, in a disturbing way. It certainly helps one re-evaluate which bits actually matter, and what is ultimately frippery, even if it doesn't necessarily help resolve the conflict between where the time and energy gets spent and those conclusions ...
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
This leads to a weird duality. On the one hand, I'm very involved (provide extensive IT support to the church office; heavily involved in organising and delivering the music side, and in leading services; sucked in to all kinds of other stuff as Someone Who Can). On the other, I don't entirely feel that I belong, or that I fully subscribe to what I suspect others assume I do. Resisting the urge to say "But that's all just bollocks, really, isn't it?" in meetings gets harder as time goes by!
Yes - me too. I am heavily involved in AV, visuals and I'm also worship co-ordinator (!). Yet, especially during prayers, I find myself thinking 'utter nonsense, does no-one think before they pray?'
I have been asked to lead a house group. I told my minister that I might not be the best person but she said 'It doesn't matter'. Maybe she's trying to re-convert me?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I have been asked to lead a house group. I told my minister that I might not be the best person but she said 'It doesn't matter'. Maybe she's trying to re-convert me?
Or maybe she wants to de-convert the others?!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Resisting the urge to say "But that's all just bollocks, really, isn't it?" in meetings gets harder as time goes by!
This.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I'm not sure where I fit. I have a completely incoherent set of beliefs (yes, Jesus rose from the dead; yes, the communion elements are the body and blood of Christ; yes, I believe Jesus was divine as well as human, and not just a particularly inspired person; no, I don't believe in God). After 15 years of every Sunday attendance, I've become utterly sporadic in the past year. I've spent the past 10 years in a Christian study/formation group that it turns out was a spectacularly bad fit for me wrestling with my faith, although I didn't realize that until it all fell apart at the end and I was trying to pick up the pieces for myself.
mark_in_manchester's "what you get back will be different from what you lost" is really helpful to me. I think I could do some useful reflection to really acknowledge all that I've lost, and to acknowledge what I have now, even if now is a work-in-progress and quite confused.
It's weird to go up against a whole movement of "you must believe in Christ to be saved" and "it's really important to think the correct things about the Trinity" and "[metaphorical pat on the head] God is there even if you can't sense him [and if you ever stop going about faith all wrong, you'll sense God's presence]." I feel like "NO! All these things you're saying just don't make any sense to me! And if it's all about deeper meanings, then quit trying to explain them as if they're logical words, and excuse me while I go elsewhere and work on deeper meanings elsewhere, because your deeper meanings are way too wrapped up in specific words that seem to make specific claims, that I can't hear the deeper meanings."
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I have an history of heavy involvement, but we switched parishes (Anglican) because the previous one closed up. The prior 2 priests and 1 bishop were fine with my involvement. I told them that I allowed that it all might be true or false and that it wasn't really up to me and that I was okay either way. They all seemed to think it was acceptable. With the new, and after some extremely challenging life events, I have one particular stumbling block now: I cannot believe that prayers ever change any part of the reality of the world. They only help us cope. Which brings me right back to the comfort part. The question there leads logically to question all miraculous claims. Thus, I have become indifferent about promises of eternity, and all the rest. I just know I am happier when I go to my weak-faith heretic-I-am social-club. Is it required to believe? I think we're suggesting to each other it is okay as we are.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
I have an incoherent set of beliefs too, and irritatingly, they change all the bleedin' time. The more I think about what I might believe, the less I actually think I do believe. It's like a ghost - if I look directly, it disappears. Today, I probably believe in the existence of Jesus. He might have been divine. You could probably sum my faith up as "There might be something in it." I don't believe that prayer changes anything (though I think there might still be a point in it, in terms of orientating ourselves towards the good and useful), I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, and probably not in God, at least not in a loving and powerful God.
I am involved in church quite a bit. I play piano once a month, and sometimes organise music for services. Most of my friends, and all my close friends, come from church. I go to homegroup and a theology book group, both of which I find much more, er, encouraging than church services.
I'm sort of happy to continue doing music as some people seem to find it helpful to their worship - that probably sounds smug as no one's business. I don't mean it to be - if I didn't think I was doing something useful, I'd stop.
Church is where my friends are, and where, sometimes, I hear something challenging / encouraging / etc. But my overriding feeling about it is irritation - it seems like a club, it's smug and self-satisfied, and doesn't pay attention to people's suffering, and the crap bits of life.
I haven't told my rector any of this, or about my now almost total lack of faith. What would be the point? I think he might feel obliged to talk me round, and I don't want that.
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Jemima the 9th
quote:
The more I think about what I might believe, the less I actually think I do believe.
This has a lot of resonance, although for me it still comes back full circle to a) actually, yes I do believe in a historical Jesus, and that the NT claims about him are true and b) "God" is still the best explanation for "life" that I've got.
Where it starts to break down/get tricky is in how that faith is expressed and worked out, and I get bogged down in seemingly unresolvable conficts, e.g. 'church' being a good and necessary thing as a means of encouragement and support, yet 'church' also becoming a massive time-suck and end-in-itself that totally undercuts what it should be. Plus some other GLE imponderables and false yet inescapable dichotomies ("full-time service/living by faith" vs. "secular job living as Christian and using skills outside of work (but never having enough time)", or "minimal living, extravagant giving vs. prudent marshalling of resources for the future", or "If I *really* believed then wouldn't I do X, but I can't bring myself to as it's insane?" and many more).
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
....and I get bogged down in seemingly unresolvable conficts, e.g. 'church' being a good and necessary thing as a means of encouragement and support, yet 'church' also becoming a massive time-suck and end-in-itself that totally undercuts what it should be.
Yes! Oh dear Lord, yes.
I find leaving my evo upbringing is also tricky. The ideas that God has a plan for your life (nope) and wants a personal relationship with you (no, don't think so) just seem daft and self-centred.
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Keeping on doggedly attending church can get you through the bad times - I think it's normal for people's faith to fluctuate throughout life, so the structure is there for a reason.
It also helps to attend a fairly liberal church, so that nobody expects you to believe every last word in great detail, anyway.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Keeping on doggedly attending church can get you through the bad times - I think it's normal for people's faith to fluctuate throughout life, so the structure is there for a reason.
It also helps to attend a fairly liberal church, so that nobody expects you to believe every last word in great detail, anyway.
OTOH, it can end up replacing any faith, and asking the real questions about what you do believe. You end up with faith in the church and the system, not in God. I know, for some people, when the church then fails them, they are lost.
It can be helpful to keep up the processes and the frameworks. But it can also be dangerous. IMO, faith in people and human institutions is asking for trouble.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
My appearance at church is limited to the decreasing number of occasions when I am asked, and agree, to play the keyboards. I get very uncomfortable and this now overides any desire that I had to facilitate other people's worship. This year's carol service will probably be my last attendance. A bit sad, really.
But this leads me to say .....
Sitting in the dentist's chair this morning I pondered on boxing and formular one racing. Well, you do, don't you? It seems that these activities, for me, are rather like attending church. Inside of me, I disagree with both 'sports'. Boxing is potentially harmful and formula one is wasteful of world resources. They both may have their 'up-side' but I still feel rather guilty and hypocritical when I watch them on the box.
That's how I feel in church - it has it's up-side for many but for me I feel hypocritical at being there. Some might say I should attend simply as a spectator - but I find it hard to do that when I so strongly disagree with some of the stuff going on there. It is difficult to leave my brain at the door which is what I feel I should do. And on the few occasions that a preacher has said something horrendous (and others have readily agreed) I've let them have my views in no uncertain terms, which is rather cheeky, I suspect.
So, I am active at church occasionally but that is about to end.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
This year's carol service will probably be my last attendance. A bit sad, really.
A bit sad in the 'end of an era' way maybe?
But you could think of it as the start of a new era too ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Yes.
And also that my desire to assist people in singing as a way of enjoying being together can no longer be fulfilled because of my own hang-ups. If only I could be a spectator. To be fair, the church would be happy with that, I think, but I have always been one who wears his emotions on his sleeve.
I suppose I could stand up in the middle of worship, announce my lack of belief and put it to the vote as to whether I should play the keyboards. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) Maybe not. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The CofE in particular seems to have a long history of using choristers and organists who aren't necessarily believers. It doesn't seem to be a huge problem, and no one requires a long explanation from the musician who's an atheist. The congregations don't normally discuss the nature of each other's faith anyway.
I once heard of an organist who used to read the Sunday newspaper during the sermon. He was probably hidden in a little nook, but maybe it was common knowledge that he wasn't there for spiritual enlightenment!
Admittedly, I've never knowingly been in this situation, but I currently attend Evensong and I often wonder how many of the choristers are believers. Certainly, the posters on the wall outside advertising for more singers make no mention of faith.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The CofE in particular seems to have a long history of using choristers and organists who aren't necessarily believers. It doesn't seem to be a huge problem, and no one requires a long explanation from the musician who's an atheist. The congregations don't normally discuss the nature of each other's faith anyway.
I once heard of an organist who used to read the Sunday newspaper during the sermon. He was probably hidden in a little nook, but maybe it was common knowledge that he wasn't there for spiritual enlightenment!
Admittedly, I've never knowingly been in this situation, but I currently attend Evensong and I often wonder how many of the choristers are believers. Certainly, the posters on the wall outside advertising for more singers make no mention of faith.
My guess is that most will be Christians in the more amateur surroundings of a parish choir, less so in cathedrals, colleges and perhaps parish churches that aspire to that sort of standard.
Atheist choir member is where I am, although for about 23 of my 28 years in this choir I was a Christian choir member. I haven't actually told many people that I'm now an atheist but I think the news has got around (telling the indiscreet parish administrator no doubt helped!). Certainly since I stopped taking communion a couple of years later nobody has ever asked me why. The only people who refer to my lack of faith are those I have told personally.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
Shipmate
# 2515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...
I once heard of an organist who used to read the Sunday newspaper during the sermon. He was probably hidden in a little nook, but maybe it was common knowledge that he wasn't there for spiritual enlightenment!
...
Only once? You obviously don't know many organists!
Posts: 695 | From: Bronteland | Registered: Mar 2002
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
I know one of the local Catholic churches has a Jewish organist who is reputably quite strict about using the right music for the occasion (the church is very pretty and extremely popular for weddings).
The local university church took a survey a few years ago over the course of several weeks of those attending services and found a not insignificant percentage of the regulars were atheists (they included the choir for the survey though there possibly a handful of us in the congregation proper). I think the organist worships Bach.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...
I once heard of an organist who used to read the Sunday newspaper during the sermon. He was probably hidden in a little nook, but maybe it was common knowledge that he wasn't there for spiritual enlightenment!
...
Only once? You obviously don't know many organists!
No, I don't. But you make my point for me: being a Christian obviously isn't a requirement of the job in many mainstream circles.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
I think the organist worships Bach.
We all do. There's a footnote to the First Commandment allowing it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
I think the organist worships Bach.
We all do. There's a footnote to the First Commandment allowing it.
"Allowing"? Shouldn't that be "Mandating"?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
I think the organist worships Bach.
We all do. There's a footnote to the First Commandment allowing it.
But how many do a series of recitals over the course of a year of all Bach's organ works? and then put them online? That is serious devotion.
Getting back to the matter at hand, only about half the choir take communion (though there are reasons other than being atheist for not taking communion).
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Thanks for this thread.
I'm a lay reader and have been running on empty for a few years now. I have tried to tell my vicar but it is remarkably difficult to do so (difficult to find time for a confidential talk, and difficult to say what I mean when we do meet). So far, any attempt I've made to back out of my current role has just been interpreted as "Aravis doesn't want to preach next month as she's busy at work, but after that will be fine".
I preach slightly under once a month, and also play the organ once or twice a month. I am happy with the organ playing.
We are not short staffed at present in the parish, and all services can be covered without me preaching at all. However, the church in which I normally preach really likes my sermons. I have always had positive feedback - not just "good sermon" but often detailed discussions of how something I have said has particularly helped or interested them. This is still happening and I don't know how.
This church is also happy with the vicar's sermons, but less happy with other people who preach there.
I think I will have to back out for now as January is going to be very stressful for several reasons. There won't be time to see my vicar in the next couple of weeks. I shall probably have to ask if someone else can do my sermon in January and explain in more detail when I get a chance.
By the way - I know there are a few Ship members who know me IRL and are aware of my user name. If you come across this post please would you not discuss it with others - thank you. I need this to be a safe space. If you want to PM me that's up to you, though be warned I may or may not reply!
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
'Running on empty' is a good way of putting it Aravis.
I am a worship leader so don't have the sermon to do - but it's amazingly easy to lead worship and yet not worship yourself ![[Frown]](frown.gif) These days I make as many excuses as I can - so only end up doing a couple of services a year (which a dear friend helps me to prepare).
Today we had the local school choir taking part in the service and the orchestra from the same school. Two Muslim children were with them and their parents came, which was good to see.
I was on AV and very busy, which is my favourite role - no time for thinking. But I did wonder what the Muslims thought of it all!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
By the way - I know there are a few Ship members who know me IRL and are aware of my user name. If you come across this post please would you not discuss it with others - thank you. I need this to be a safe space. If you want to PM me that's up to you, though be warned I may or may not reply!
I would emphasise this across all of this board and for everyone. Some people are talking about situations that are delicate or personal. Nothing read on this board should be mentioned or discussed with anyone else, including the poster, without their specific permission.
Thank you.
Schroedingers Cat
Faithfree host.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I'm an atheist from indifferent religious stock. I will very occasionally attend a wedding or funeral in Church. So, I'm not in the target demographic for this thread.
I did have the experience of going to a high school run by Jewish secular humanists. They created their own group, complete with meetings and school system. It's not a super vigorous organization but it does hang on.
The reason I mention it, is the question; what happens when you are of weak or no faith but still attending church and most or all of the rest of the assembly feels the same way? Does that make it easier or worse? I suspect it looks a little like that group I met in High School. Is your faith free church attendance in tension with the faith of others in church? Or would it be pointless for you if the rest of the assembly was also faith free?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
By the way - I know there are a few Ship members who know me IRL and are aware of my user name. If you come across this post please would you not discuss it with others - thank you. I need this to be a safe space. If you want to PM me that's up to you, though be warned I may or may not reply!
I would emphasise this across all of this board and for everyone. Some people are talking about situations that are delicate or personal. Nothing read on this board should be mentioned or discussed with anyone else, including the poster, without their specific permission.
Thank you.
Schroedingers Cat
Faithfree host.
I am sorry to contradict you, but this is a public board. While it would be a kindness to honor Aravis's request, confidentiality is most certainly not a feature of public discussion boards. If shipmates do not want private information to become public knowledge, they should not post it in public.
Ruth
Admin
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
Boogie, have you come across Brian Mclaren's four stages of spiritual growth (simplicity, complexity, perplexity, humility)? I've found it a very helpful way of describing my spiritual journey - you may be the same.
You're vey lucky to have such a secure minister - a lot of churches are built around the first two stages, and don't know what to do when people start having doubts. Honestly, I'd probably say that other people could do with your doubts as much as you could do with their faith.
Anyway, here he is talking about it. Take it or leave it, as it's a good long lecture (and many of us have heard enough sermons to last a lifetime), but it might be useful. Link
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
As an atheist at University I ended up in the Folk Mass music group for a couple years at the local RC Church that catered to the student population. (There is a thread in DH that has discussed much of the actual "music" involved.) I would be polite and reverent to respect the beliefs of others, but didn't take communion (even when I had baked the bread) and didn't kneel for prayers.
The reason was about relationships: I did it to support my two roommates, though their situations were very different. But because I had a clear non-religious reason for going, the religious details (and quality of the songs) really didn't matter. There was a small community that grew around the group, and while they seemed accepting of me, I never quite felt as though I belonged there. But in other circumstances I could see where the social aspects could be very important to some people.
Would I do the same thing now, years later and much further along my journey? I might if there was a reason for it.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Thank goodness I've found this Board!
I don't really know what I believe. And my big problem is that I am really interested in science, particularly cosmology, astro-physics and astronomy, not that I understand it all, (quantum mechanics really messes with my head!) and I just can't see how God, Jesus or any of the beliefs manifested by my very evangelical church fit in.
I would love to talk (email) any Christian scientists of the above persuasions - does many one know one who would oblige, or are there any on the Ship?
I go to this Evangelical church because the people are lovely, loving and friendly. I don't go to Sunday church, but do go to a women's group and a home group. Leader of the home group knows roughly how I feel, but keeps praying for me!
I think I want to believe, there is a fear inside me that if I don't, if I reject it all, something awful will happen - probably hell. Comes from becoming a Christian in a VERY fundie church, having had a remarkable Damascus Road experience. Can't explain that either, but do I want to???
Its all muddled in my head, so please excuse this muddled post. But perhaps that's what this Board is for?
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Nicodemia - welcome to the board. And it is for people who accept their lack of certainty!
I would probably relate to your position - evangelical by belief, and with a whole lot of interest in science, especially the nature of reality. I actually have a blog post prepared about the real nature of reality, which is quite disturbing.
So I would be happy to discuss - either here or by PM/email/etc
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Nicodemia, you might find John Polkinghorne's biography interesting. He apparently takes questions through that site, but it's old so I'm not sure how linked in everything is now.
[ 17. December 2014, 15:21: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am a Christian who is a scientist - what did you want to ask ? (Though not a physics / space sciencey type o scientist.)
[ 21. December 2014, 13:03: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Well, that was interesting.
Our service today was the annual Covenant Service (I had forgotten or I would have thought twice about going)
The Promises we make are deep and wide ranging.
I decided to say it and commit what I know of myself and my faith (which is not much) to what I know of God (which is not much and not at all Trinitarian) so I said it all, except the last three lines.
I don't feel a cheat or a fraud for doing this, in fact I feel rather pleased that I've been able to come to some sort of internal compromise.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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parm
Shipmate
# 9287
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Well, that was interesting.
Our service today was the annual Covenant Service (I had forgotten or I would have thought twice about going)
The Promises we make are deep and wide ranging.
</delurk>
Whereas it was our covenant service recently, and I spent the whole service feeling completely miserable and like a fraud - especially as I was the one Doing The PowerPoint that week. I mouthed along with the words and took Communion despite feeling that there's no way that I should because I simply didn't mean it. I'm still on the rota for a whole bunch of stuff, and really don't feel able to easily step back from it - I've never really spoken to anyone at church about the fact that my faith is completely threadbare and so I'm terrified that should I ask to step away there'll be endless gossiping and probably an effort to try and 'win me back' (although far less so at my current church than others).
Our congregation is mainly elderly, life-long Methodists and our minister doesn't show much interest in the pastoral side of his role. The idea of attempting to explain the mess of doubt, mental illness, anger, resentment and exhaustion I feel to these people just feels completely alien to me - it's easier to put up a front (even though it's grinding me down further and building more resentment).
Sorry, that turned into more of a rant than I expected. I'll go back to lurking now.
Posts: 98 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Apr 2005
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
parm:
Hope you realise from this Board that you are not alone. Discovering that was, for me, a major first step out.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by parm:
Whereas it was our covenant service recently, and I spent the whole service feeling completely miserable and like a fraud - especially as I was the one Doing The PowerPoint that week. I mouthed along with the words and took Communion despite feeling that there's no way that I should...
...I'll go back to lurking now.
Hi Parm, thanks for sticking your head up!
I have similar feelings, like I can cross my fingers or skip some of the stuff as a simple pew warmer, but feels wrong to be presenting or teaching what I'm not sure I agree with. I was on an Attract Newcomers committee but it felt internally wrong to try to entice people to a church I wouldn't personally recommend!
And yes to sometimes taking communion when I don't think it's right. Once I sat alone in a back pew and the preacher came back to bring communion to me there! When there's no easy way to quietly step aside, I go through the motions as a courtesy, a way of being non-disruptive.
Even if there aren't clear (or any) answers, knowing you are not alone can be reassuring!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
I don't really know what I believe. And my big problem is that I am really interested in science, particularly cosmology, astro-physics and astronomy, not that I understand it all, (quantum mechanics really messes with my head!) and I just can't see how God, Jesus or any of the beliefs manifested by my very evangelical church fit in.
I would love to talk (email) any Christian scientists of the above persuasions - does many one know one who would oblige, or are there any on the Ship?
I have a PhD in theoretical physics (perturbative quantum chromodynamics), and my MSc was in quantum field theory, with a minor in general relativity / cosmology. I switched fields during my postdoc years and I am now a Professor in computational neuroscience at a decent UK university. My speciality is parallel computing applied to large scale complex systems.
I'm also an adult convert to Christianity, after an agnostic / atheist / apathetic upbringing in a highly educated but thoroughly secular family, and after a couple of years heavily into traditional Soto Zen (where I was the meditation instructor for beginners in the end).
I'm not exactly known as a wilting flower of doubt-ridden faith on these boards, I guess... Feel free to PM / email me any questions you might have, or ask here I guess (though this might drag the thread off-topic too much).
Alan Cresswell is another professional physicist who is probably known to you as Shipmate.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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