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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "I will pray for you"
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
or worse, "I will pray for your husband" as happened to us.
In an odd sort of way I welcome it - it sort of acknowledges that I have changed.
On the other hand, it directly challenges where I am - it says to me 'I'll fight this with weapons that I know will work and you will come to see the error of your ways'. It demonstrates a total lack of understanding of what it means to have rejected the concept of GOD.
What I feel - angry, upset, frustrated, almost impotent. I feel hopelessness and sadness that such statements reveal closed minds.
What do I do? So far I have left the statement hanging in the air, not wishing to challenge or confront a major plank in the faith of others. One day, perhaps, someone will catch me on the wrong foot.
I think these are amongst the worst experiences I have had. Far worse than the person who smiled sweetly or the person who asked "What about your eternal salvation".
Mrs Wuntoo (such a kind person!) says it is to be expected and it shows that people care.
Have others had this said to them?
What do you feel?
What do you do?
Note: about 8 people have said this to me - most of them in letters or emails. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Potoroo
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# 13466
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Posted
Yes, people have said this to me, along with such smug things as, "I know God will bring you back to him".
It made me angry, as it totally discounted the pain of many years in making my big decision to not follow God any more.
I usually said something firmly in response along the lines of, "Please don't say that / pray for me, as I have made my decision and am happy with it", or "as I didn't make this decision lightly."
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
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Bob Two-Owls
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# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Potoroo:
Yes, people have said this to me, along with such smug things as, "I know God will bring you back to him".
Me too, along with one rather petulant "I will pray that God crushes your arrogant spirit and brings you back to acknowledge his majesty on broken and bloodied knees" which I found rather amusing in a theatrical way. I simply replied that if God existed, was omnipotent, cared and wanted me then why did he ignore me when I was on the verge of leaving. It turns out I am probably (spiritually) deaf as well, apparently.
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TallPoppy
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# 16294
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Posted
Good assertive responses, Potoroo.
I cringe at the thought of MW's friends speaking to him in such a fashion, but Mrs W is wise. These people probably feel they are acting altruistically, and are perhaps just as well quietly ignored/tolerated.
(Unless we feel as brave as Potoroo, and can answer in an appropriately firm way!).
TP ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Papaver exaltatum
"Love comforteth like sunshine after rain"
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TallPoppy
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# 16294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
quote:
Originally posted by Potoroo:
Yes, people have said this to me, along with such smug things as, "I know God will bring you back to him".
Me too, along with one rather petulant "I will pray that God crushes your arrogant spirit and brings you back to acknowledge his majesty on broken and bloodied knees" which I found rather amusing in a theatrical way. I simply replied that if God existed, was omnipotent, cared and wanted me then why did he ignore me when I was on the verge of leaving. It turns out I am probably (spiritually) deaf as well, apparently.
Ummmm. I'm kinda struggling to be charitable with this one. Oh dear. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Honestly, you couldn't make it up.
TP
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Papaver exaltatum
"Love comforteth like sunshine after rain"
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Yes.
"I will pray for you" means 'I won't accept you as you are, I want you to change, so I will pray that you do'
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Garden. Room. Walk
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MrsBeaky
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# 17663
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Posted
Blimey, some people behave like complete idiots!
It depresses me when Christians use prayer as some kind of trump card or offensive weapon.
Can I ask a question though? Is it when people suggest they'll be praying with the implication that you'll "see the light and return" that's offensive? Or is it the fact that they offer to pray at all given the place you are now in that's offensive?
ISTM that a mutual friendship requires an acceptance of the things that are important to one another. I have a friend who has completely given up on Christianity/ Church. He is now very ill indeed and may well die. We have remained close despite our different faith positions. He knows we pray for him and although he rejects the idea of prayer he knows it's part of who we are and comes from our care and many years of friendship so he isn't offended. (We also do all we can to support him practically etc.)
As I said on the "What did your Christian friends say" thread, the "I'll pray for you" weapon is also used by some people in relation to other Christians who are felt to no longer be "sound"- I've had it said to me because of my own decisions.
As I say, some people just behave like idiots!
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Paul.
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# 37
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Posted
Telling someone you'll pray for them doesn't make the prayer any more or less effective. So if what you're really trying to do is communicate you care, so how about this:
Say, "I care about you."
And you can pray or not and the other person doesn't need to know.
[directed at the thread in general not the previous post specifically]
[ 11. December 2014, 11:58: Message edited by: Paul. ]
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
On the other (my) side of the fence, I now tell people (Christian and atheist) that I will light a candle for them at my home. They can take it however they wish but it is meant to say 'I care for you in your difficult situation and I will think of you'.
((My fundamentalist friends might be provoked, of course, as candles are of the devil. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) ))
I do see a value in prayer but do not see it as making a difference to a person's physical state, for example. With reference to the post above, prayer as a group identity-making / support idea seems to me to be fine. But when people say they will pray for me within the context of their learning of my rejection of faith, then what Boogie said ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) .
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Caissa
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# 16710
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Posted
My thoughts are that if someone wants to pray for someone or something more power to them. I am sure that it is an important part of their mental health.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
My thoughts are that if someone wants to pray for someone or something more power to them. I am sure that it is an important part of their mental health.
To put it unkindly, I think prayer is a waste of their time.
More kindly - isn't prayer a running away from reality and therefore harmful? Or, at least, not developmentally good?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
Too late to edit.
I should have said that prayer can be a running away or that part of prayer is a running away from reality (IMO).
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Caissa
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# 16710
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Posted
I am not sure that "running away from reality" is correlated with bad mental health.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
But cannot it be correlated with a lack of development in mental health? Not bad, just not 'better'?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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JoannaP
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# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
Telling someone you'll pray for them doesn't make the prayer any more or less effective. So if what you're really trying to do is communicate you care, so how about this:
Say, "I care about you."
And you can pray or not and the other person doesn't need to know.
Coming from the other side of the fence, I have a friend who is very anti-Christian (she wants to be de-baptised) and who has health problems. As well as supporting her, I pray for healing for her as I do other friends but I feel a tad guilty about it as I am not sure how she would react if she knew. Praying for her and ensuring she does not realise feels a bit sneaky somehow. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Prayer provides, in my opinion, comfort (at most) to someone. It may comfort the pray-er, and is entirely within their right and need to do so.
The second part of this however is telling another person that they are being prayer for. Might this have almost nil to do with the prayed for person and everything to do with the person praying? The praying person comforting themself? In this line of thinking the praying person needs to consider whether they are meeting their selfish need or really do have the other person in mind I think.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
It depends how you define "mental health. This links to WHO's definition.
http://www.who.int/features/factfiles/mental_health/en/
Thank you Caissa.
I think that supports my contention. That praying can hold back a full realization of potential (whilst helping to cope, perhaps, with normal stresses of life) and also may not facilitate making a contribution to a person's community).
I am trying to think through what I felt when, some years ago, our grandson was very seriously ill and many people around the world were praying for him and for us. If this occurred today, with my present beliefs, I guess I might feel the same as I did then. So very grateful for people's concern, care and love yet not believing that it would persuade GOD to take the cancer away. (As a family, we were not confused by the fact that our grandson's treatment was successful whilst another child in the ward died - saddened for the other family, of course, but we did not for one moment think (as some do) that the prayers of so many people were responsible for our blessing and, for the other child, people were not praying hard enough.)
Got to rush off - will be back if I've been clumsy or unkind.)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
MarkWuntoo:
Are you really saying that having someone say that they will pray for you is quote:
amongst the worst experiences I have had
.
If so, and assuming I've not totally misread you, that is a degree of over-sensitivity that I cannot even imagine.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
MarkWuntoo:
Are you really saying that having someone say that they will pray for you is quote:
amongst the worst experiences I have had
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If so, and assuming I've not totally misread you, that is a degree of over-sensitivity that I cannot even imagine.
I am, within the context of sharing my change of belief with my evangelical / fundamentalist friends. It seems to deny and devalue my journey. It does not accept me as I am but wants me to be something else (of course, I realise that they want something better for me).
It’s time to share one of these contexts; perhaps it will help to explain my negativity.
Some months ago I made contact with a friend who I had not met for 50 years. We originally had been together (GLE’s) as National Servicemen. We arranged to meet in a motorway café. In order to save embarrassment, I had ‘warned’ him that I no longer was a believer. As I had initiated the meeting I insisted on buying the coffee. I was mystified why my friend clung close to me whilst our partners went to find a table. We rejoined as a group and not a single word was said about my change of beliefs – fair enough. When we continued our journey up the motorway Mrs Wuntoo told me that my friend’s wife had opened the subject of my non-belief in GOD whuilst we bought the coffee. She apparently stated that they would pray for me. It felt as if my friend had made sure that he kept me away from our partners so that his wife could 'have a word'. It could, I suppose, have been their way of saying they cared for us. But the fact that they did not feel able to enquire of me directly, only to ask Mrs Wuntoo, made me angry and seems to demonstrate a lack of care.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
MarkWuntoo:
Well I'm not denying that your friend was pretty bad at handling personal relations, but I'm afraid you just have to take that on the chin.
My history is Jehovah's Witnesses to Conservative Reformed to mainstream Anglicanism. My best "friend" in the JWs stopped talking to me at all which was a pity but not the end of the world. I would've liked more chance to talk him out of the horseshit he believed, and am sad he died a hopeless alcoholic who became so obnoxious his own family was relieved when he croaked.
people are very weak in many ways. Some of my evangelical friends are still good friends, but they are intelligent evos and know where I'm at so we talk about other things.
Quite a few people in sects find it hard to have relationships with people who are not just like them, and the narrow sects act as a filter so that you can join knowing everybody's basically the same. If you then leave, which of course you should, quite a few will not be able to handle it.
Why not just move on to a new set of friends? If someone insists on haranguing you about your current stand, you can always try telling them to fuck off.
But honestly, if that's the worst that happens to you, you have a pretty charmed life. Maybe you just need to toughen up. I recommend a dose of Albert Ellis!
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
You did notice this, didn't you? quote:
... within the context of sharing my change of belief with my evangelical / fundamentalist friends.
Having been 60 years a Christian it is immensely saddening that life-long friends can act in this way.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Mark Wunto:
Well I think that I have tried to attend to what you are saying. And it may just be that I find it easier to accept that some friendships are based on shared affection whilst others are based on shared involvement in specific cause. I'm not saying these are the only two. But the second type tends to fade if you leave the cause, just like you lose close colleagues at work when you retire.
Maybe I (wrongly?) see something we have in common. I really like being in the sort of close community that fundy sects create. And a lot of it is good, but the foundation is shaky. My wife, on the contrary, isn't all that bothered.
But I've stopped looking and found new friends, although I'm still a practising christian.
Unlike you I felt little desire to convince my former fundy friends of the error of there ways. It's usually a waste of time, and it makes them feel threatened because you probably can come up with arguments that will make them a bit insecure. Sadly, they won't like you for that.
If you're trying to keep their friendship by undermining their naive beliefs, then I think that is going nowhere good.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
obviously you know your friends Mark Wuntoo, and I do not, but in general for that type of fundamentalist Christian, and other types come to that, if they care about someone they pray for them. So it seems to me that saying they will pray for you means saying they still care about you although you are no longer a Christian.
If I were your old friend I would pray for you though I am no fundamentalist. I know that my atheist friends care about me without them having to pray for me to prove it, and similarly I can care about them without having to not pray for them to prove it. As long as your friends' motives are kind within their own worldview, I see nothing to object to so strongly.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
... So it seems to me that saying they will pray for you means saying they still care about you although you are no longer a Christian.
So why did they not say it to me?
In hospitals and elsewhere it is common practice for a Christian minister to ask 'Can I pray for you?'. And Christian nurses have been taken to task for pressurising patients in this way. Seems good practice to me, even though the contexts are rather different.
And I did mention that Mrs Wuntoo suggested this could be an honourable motive by my friends. Doesn't make it any easier to accept. Give me time, I will grow out of it, perhaps.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
[cross-posted]
It's not clear to me in some of this discussion whether what is being discussed is:
someone saying "I'll pray for you" for some general reason,
or what what is being discussed is:
someone saying "I'll pray for you" specifically around faith such as meaning "I'll pray for you to recover your faith" or "I'll pray for you that you won't go to hell" or whatever.
[ 11. December 2014, 19:32: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
As far as myself - it's the latter I have wanted to address (but with illustration / qualification in my last post). Perhaps it is the confusion you have noted that has made me a bit cross, even defensive.
thank you.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Potoroo
Shipmate
# 13466
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Posted
Autenrieth Road, I think what is meant is the latter.
If someone really cared for me as an individual, surely they would listen to what I was saying: that saying they are praying for me to come back to God is offensive.
Then of course they could still pray whatever they wanted in private, but I wouldn't know about it and so be offended.
[ 11. December 2014, 19:38: Message edited by: Potoroo ]
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Potoroo: ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think if we could focus on the "I will pray for you" to return into the fold, that might make it easier for everyone.
There is probably a valid separate thread about whether asking to pray for people in general can be considered offensive. If anyone wants to start that, feel free.
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
When I said I would pray for Mark Wuntoo if he were my old friend, I meant in a general way for God to bless him.
Of course some of your friends may have honorable and kind motives and others not, and in the case of ones you were seeing after many years, there may be no follow on. But if there are friends you've been close to and want to stay friends with, I would think that both they and you would need to cut each other some slack. I have different ideas from you about what is offensive, but if I were your friend, I would try to avoid doing something you found offensive. Equally I hope you would try not to take offence if you knew I did not intend to cause it.
Only in that way, it seems to me, can friendship survive between people with very different outlooks.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Regardless of the motive of the "I will pray for you", if my response is along the lines of "I'd rather you didn't, thanks" I would hope that that request would be respected.
[ 11. December 2014, 22:45: Message edited by: Pre-cambrian ]
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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ChastMastr
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# 716
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Posted
I'll say in my own case that I can't really well pray, "God, please bless/help/take care of/etc. everyone and everything in this and every other possible universe, except for Person X. Don't help him." I'm sorry, but that's a request I simply can't comply with.
That said, I think that going up to someone whom one knows does not believe in the same faith anymore, and telling them that you're praying for them to come back, has a very very high chance of being basically passive-aggressive emotionally manipulative bullshit, or at least coming across that way. I think there are cases where it would be OK, depending on the people involved, but those would probably be rare.
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the famous rachel
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# 1258
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Posted
It appears I am odd. I would quite like a way back into the fold in some ways. I just can't find one. If someone had a working hotline to God (prayer) which would find that way for me, I might be quite grateful. I just don't currently believe that they do. In the process of falling away from church etc, I believed in the back of my mind that God would eventually ride to my rescue, cut through my ever-failing search for a theology which not only chimes with my heart but make some sort of sense to my head, and bring me back to himself. So far he hasn't, which doesn't really surprise me in the place I now find myself, since I no longer believe that is the sort of thing he does, if he exists. However, I think I'd like to be proved wrong, and if someone wants to try and help me with that, then I am perhaps grateful but not hopeful!
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
You might want to try a Quaker meeting in the unprogrammed tradition.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
Thanks Doublethink. I have thought about trying a Quaker meeting, but am unconvinced of my own ability to sit still! Without something tangible to focus on, I am a rather fidgetty, restless sort of a person. If I could give my hands something to do, I might cope, but I'm not sure how Quaker meetings feel about crochet!!
Best wishes,
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
Along the same lines as Doublethink. Meditation/Contemplative Prayer might be the way in.
See The Julian Meetings
Crossposted with the famous rachel
[ 16. December 2014, 08:29: Message edited by: Thyme ]
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the famous rachel:
Thanks Doublethink. I have thought about trying a Quaker meeting, but am unconvinced of my own ability to sit still! Without something tangible to focus on, I am a rather fidgetty, restless sort of a person. If I could give my hands something to do, I might cope, but I'm not sure how Quaker meetings feel about crochet!!
Best wishes,
Rachel.
It is generally acceptable to read devotional literature, bible - theology book etc. You could use a rosary without comment I would think. Or take in a mandala image.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It is generally acceptable to read devotional literature, bible - theology book etc. You could use a rosary without comment I would think. Or take in a mandala image.
Interesting - I didn't know that! I had imagined that it would be usual just to sit there with nothing to focus on except the silence.
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Most quakers will tell you it takes years to get to a point where you are 'centered' for a whole hour - I can manage about 15 minutes myself. There are often leaflets for people in meeting for the first time.
FWIW I the only time I have heard of an elder challenging someone, apparently years ago, someone had come in and was sitting in the meeting reading a newspaper. The elder stood and said to them - friend, that is not our custom.
I am also aware of someone who managed to start an argument in a quaker meeting - which is kind of an achievement in itself - by convention, you do not answer or argue with another persons testimony. Also, if someone stands to speak you don't interuppt them.
So when this debate started with people answering one another's testimony, one of the more experienced friends waited for a speaker to finish and then stood up - but then continued to stand in silence for 15 minutes. Thereby allowing the meeting enter back into worship.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I have often told atheist friends I'd pray for them. Not for them to return to the fold, however. But for their lumbago, their job situation, whatever. I told them this makes me feel better. This is in addition to offering to do whatever is within my power to help them.
It's never been rebuffed.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Potoroo
Shipmate
# 13466
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Posted
That's because you obviously care for them, no strings attached, MT. Whatever their spiritual or non-spiritual preferences.
A completely different proposition to the OP, and to the type of judgemental 'prayer' that made me angry.
[ 17. December 2014, 07:52: Message edited by: Potoroo ]
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
Posts: 2778 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think the difference is what prompts the comment. I tell people on twitter that I will pray for them, even when they are convinced atheists, because it is my appropriate response. But it is only when someone says "This has happened and it sucks and I hurt". An offer to thing and pray, or with hugs or whatever, is valid and always accepted.
It is when someone says "I realised today that I am gay" or "I have left the church", or anything else that is seen as a positive by the poster (or commenter) to then respond with "I will pray for you" is abusive and hurtful. It isn't necessarily meant as such, so sometimes I will say "I will pray that you find the right path" or similar, an acknowledgement of a transition, and the pain that this might be causing, but also positive hope for the new direction.
It is not my place to tell people then must be in a particular situation. It is my place to rejoice with people when they rejoice, cry when they cry, and seek to let them see a God they may not recognise in me.
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
..... I told them this makes me feel better. This is in addition to offering to do whatever is within my power to help them.
It's never been rebuffed.
And neither should it be. I like your stance. It set me thinking. For me to say to my (evangelical) friends who say they will pray for me, meaning pray for my 'return from falling away', 'If it makes you feel better ...', would be as provocative as I feel their statement is to me (but I'd like to say it ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) ). And, of course, these friends are unlikely to add your helpful comment!
I am still working through my anger on this one. But you may have helped me to see the error of my ways. Perhaps if I could say to myself 'well it makes them feel better and it does no harm' is better than thinking 'you are wasting your time, mate, don't bother'.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
Playing devil's advocate for a moment... for those evangelicals who truly believe that anyone outside the fold (however defined) is going straight to hell for all eternity without passing go or collecting £200, then if they care for you it is (to them) utterly urgent that they find a way to reconvert you and prayer is always going to be, to them, part of how they do that. Of course it comes across as passive-aggressive and patronising to you, but if one accepts their viewpoint for a moment, not to do it would be pretty unkind as well. Particularly as some evangelicals have some pretty screwed up notions of how prayer works ("I didn't pray for him hard enough... he's headed for Hell... it's all my fault"). From within that mindset, not praying for you is a bit like not trying to persuade an alcoholic to go to AA. The alcoholic may insist that they neither need nor want your help, but that in no way makes you wrong to try and persuade them to go along to the meetings...
None of which is going to make anyone feel any better, but I spent enough time in that world to try to understand the prayer offerer's point of view, and how it could be genuinely motivated by love...
Best wishes,
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Rachael - I get your point, but it is more like an alcoholic calling someone doing AA to come back to the drink. The point being that this is what people have been in, and have got out of. Maybe they are wrong to have got out of it, but they cannot be persuaded back by being told that they are wrong.
The might be persuaded back by being listened to, but having their concerns listened to. Not by being told how good church is. I know how crap church is, and how good. I have chosen to avoid the crap and sacrifice the good. It needs something more to get me back.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
Acknowledging Rachel's point, there is still an important distinction between praying for someone to have a specific outcome that you think is best, vs. praying for the outcome that is best for them even if you don't know what that is.
As an example, I met briefly with one of my extended family members last night, who is facing a lot of emotion as she goes through a major transition period: out of work, angry the death of her husband some years go, and facing an empty nest with no children around for Christmas for the first time. If I were to pray for her (or whatever equivalent process I might use) it would be easy to pray for "fixes" to specific pieces of that: a good job near her house, children having the opportunity to come home, relief from anger, etc. But that assumes that these really are the best solutions for her, and that may not be the case. So instead I would pray that she be guided to her highest and best good; to discover the next step on her journey; for healing, courage, clarity and strength; etc. I don't pretend to know what is best for her, or what help she needs at each moment, but can still pray that she gets what she needs.
I have no problem with someone praying that way for me - it's how I would do it for myself. The first way, however, could be a lot more offensive if they were praying for something that I didn't want to have happen: it's praying to force others to fit our images of what their life should be like, rather than for what is right for them.
So perhaps an appropriate response to "I will pray for you" would be something like, "Yes, I would appreciate if you would pray for me to have clarity of mind / discernment / a supportive environment / a new opportunity / or whatever." That changes the dynamic. True, it might not change what they end up praying for, but you have at least made a specific request, and perhaps it will give them pause to think for a moment.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
The alcoholic may insist that they neither need nor want your help, but that in no way makes you wrong to try and persuade them to go along to the meetings...
Mmmmm. Not at all sure. And therefore not at all sure about your 'support' for evangelical beliefs.
If the alcoholic is not harming anyone, do I have the right to interfere? (It may be impossible for alcoholics not to harm people, I don't know.)
I am not harming anyone by my non-theism. Except, maybe I am harming my loved-ones who may be looking forward to spending eternity with me ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) (fortunately, Mrs Wuntoo and I sorted that one out many years ago by agreeing that heaven is not about that.)
I have been there so do understand the arguments of the evangelicals. But it's still abusive if they make something of it by informing me. I really don't mind if people pray for me so long as they don't tell me. It really is a waste of their time ...
Ah, yes of course, I have to tell them to stop because they are wasting their time and they should spend their time productively because not to tell them would be unkind of me. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I believe AA teaches that the alcoholic will only come to AA on his or her time. After hitting rock bottom, for many. People in the alcoholic's life are advised to attend to their own business and avoid either supporting or nagging about the alcoholic's disease.
So although someone might be praying that the alcoholic will find AA, s/he shouldn't link that with also directly adjuring the alcoholic about AA. And I think AlAnon would teach that efforts trying to control or change the alcoholic's path are better spent working on our own paths.\
[ETA: to make the point explicit: I think that trying to create an analogy between someone's praying for someone to come back to faith, and someone trying to persuade an alcoholic to go to AA, is flawed. Unless perhaps people wish to argue that the person praying should pray silently in their chamber and allow the person prayed-for to take care of themselves.]
[ 17. December 2014, 18:10: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
OK - fair enough - the nuances of my alcoholism analogy may be off, but actually in some ways that only strengthens the analogy. I'm sure plenty of people screw up when trying to help the alcoholics in their lives, but that doesn't mean they aren't doing the best they can come up with for the people they love. Similarly, plenty of evangelical Christians screw up trying to help those of us who have stepped away from their path, but not all of them are necessarily manipulative, passive-aggressive bigots. As they see it, they are doing the best they can for the people they love over what they truly believe is the single most important issue in the universe.
Now, I've given up on trying to hold together in my head a picture of a God worth worshipping who also sends people to eternal punishment. I can't do it, as it turns out. I don't think I ever really could, and I don't quite see how anyone manages it long term. But assuming they do, really, truly and honestly believe in both the mansions of heaven and the fires of hell and the necessity of some absolute decision for the gospel, how do we really expect them to behave if those that they care about seem to turn away from the gospel? Particularly in the context of an evangelical culture which puts huge emphasis on speaking up for Christ.
Of course, it would be more tactful of them to pray fervently but silently, to maintain friendships in an unconditional fashion. Of course, there are actually a hundred better tactics than the aggressive "I will pray for you to repent and return to Christ". But these people are only human. And as far as I am concerned, it turns out they don't have a hotline to the divine to check how to do things right.
I'm not saying the "I will pray for you" bunch are doing something right. They're not. I'm just saying that assuming they are not doing what they are doing out of genuine love and affection is unfair.
I'm sure most of you have read this Terry Pratchett quote before. It describes the faith I never really had, perfectly. But if people do have that faith and are trying to live it out, I have to have some respect for that, even if the outworking of that leaves me embarrassed, upset or frankly pissed off.
Best wishes,
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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