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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: January Book Group: "WITCHES ABROAD", by Terry Pratchett
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Happy New Year!
Our book this month is "Witches Abroad", by Terry Pratchett. It's raucous, thoughtful, and witty. For those familiar with Disc World, the Lancre witches are involved. There's a lot about Stories, and choices. And it's great fun.
Our tentative start date is January 20th. That can be moved if necessary. **Please let me know if you plan to participate.** Anyone can join at any time, even after the discussion's started. But having at least a vague idea of how many there'll be will help if we need to decide on moving the date. (Sounds like I'm planning a banquet! I'll chalk it up to watching a "Downton Abbey" marathon on PBS, right now.)
NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT POST SPOILERS OR HINTS ABOUT THE BOOK BEFORE I START THE DISCUSSION. OR about the rest of the series. That will give everyone a chance to discover and enjoy the book on their own. Thanks!
Next stop: Disc World! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
I love Witches Abroad! It has my very favourite Pratchett qoute!(Readers, you are going to have to guess, not for me to put up a spoiler)
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Tis also my favourite ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ceannaideach
Shipmate
# 12007
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Posted
My first ever Pratchett and still a firm favourite!
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"I dream of the day when I will learn to stop asking questions for which I will regret learning the answers." - Roy Greenhilt OOTS
Posts: 199 | From: Shakespeare's County | Registered: Nov 2006
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
I've found my copy in a box (one day we will have enough shelves to hold all my books) so I'll join in. Not read pratchett for ages as they are all in a box under the bed...
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Boadicea Trott
Shipmate
# 9621
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Posted
I'd be interested.
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
There was a time when it was my second favourite Pratchett. It may have been superseded by Good Omens or Hogfather. I'll have to reread it to find out.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I remember being very disappointed with Witches Abroad because I felt it wasn't up to the level of Wyrd Sisters (which is just edged out of first place of my favourite Discworld by Mort). That said it was still a Discworld book and still very enjoyable.
This'll be the first time I've re-read it since it came out in paperback (22-23 years!)
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Long time since I read it, so I've just ordered a second-hand copy.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I'm more of a City Watch man than a Witches man, but I'm interested.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
I was just thinking of this book the other day! Good excuse to re-read it.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Wild Organist
Apprentice
# 12631
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Posted
There's a fantastic CD set of a reading of it in German by Katharina Thalbach, (Total verhext, ISBN 978-3-86604-858-4) wonderful voice, and I don't even speak enough German to understand it ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Definitely one of my favourite books.
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Be very careful what you wish for. You might just get it.
Posts: 50 | From: West Sussex | Registered: May 2007
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I'm in. I like the witches almost as much as Captain Vimes.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
I've found my copy, which has not been read for years, so will join in as well.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Looks like this is going to be fun! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
My sister has a Discworld game: i'll see what she thinks about it. Still less than half way through the book I am leading the discussion of next month.....
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
I'll tentatively raise my hand. I've never done a book group before, here or IRL, so not sure if I'll have a lot to contribute, but happy to give it a go.
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
(bump)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
I found my copy, so I'm in.
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
We found (or rather didn't find) that our copy has gone missing, so we bought a new copy today - hardback no less!
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
Managed to see it in a charity shop a while back. Will definitely read it and the comments.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I'm in. I like the witches almost as much as Captain Vimes.
I was not aware that Vimes was fond of witches.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
balaam--
LOL. Though Sam can come to accept just about anybody, if he finds he can depend on them in a pinch.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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cattyish
Wuss in Boots
# 7829
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Posted
I quite like Witches Abroad. I'm partial to a New Cancie occasionally.
Cattyish, off to dig it out.
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...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Posts: 1794 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jul 2004
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cross eyed bear
Shipmate
# 13977
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Posted
I've just re-read my copy, so am in.
It not only struck me how much of the story I had forgotten over the last 15 years, but also how imho Pratchett's style has changed. I'd just finished reading "Raising Steam" before Witches Abroad.
Looking forward to the discussion!
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"One false step in my direction, you'd better believe in the resurrection" Stillgoe & Skellern's "Mrs Beamish"
Posts: 120 | From: Southern Germany | Registered: Jul 2008
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gustava
Apprentice
# 15593
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Posted
Still waiting for a print copy but have listened to a copy on CD so I'm in.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Apr 2010
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
having read witches abroad for the first time in ages, I'm now rediscovering the rest of my Pratchett books (I don't have all of them) which means i'll probably have to re-read Witches Abroad again when it comes to question time!
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Wind up your keyboards, folks.
**********DISCUSSION STARTS HERE.**********
Feel free to pick and choose questions, and talk about topics of your own. This isn’t a school quiz. There aren’t any right or wrong answers.
--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?
--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?
--Disliked characters, scenes, lines?
--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?
--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?
--What do you think happens to Lilith?
--Which characters would you like to hang out with?
[ 20. January 2015, 08:12: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?
Yes. I've read a lot of them, though I think some are better than others and I don't agree with everything he says.
--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?
In this book: I like the way Magrat's character is developed. I also want to be Granny Weatherwax when I grow up (although I'm really more like Magrat).
I really liked the Thing With The Bulls (Nobody ever talked about it again. At least, not in front of the men.)
And the scene where Granny fleeces the card sharpers... and the Episode of the Flabberghast... well, nearly all the journey.
Absolute favourite line in the whole book: 'The trouble about small furry animals in a corner is that, just occasionally, one of them's a mongoose.'
--Disliked characters, scenes, lines?
I thought Gollum's cameo appearance was unnecessary. Pratchett has sent up 'The Lord of the Rings' so many times...
--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?
Depends whether you are the Hero or the Villain, and how happy you are with your role, surely? But the whole book is an argument against stereotyping. People are more complicated than that. And life just happens; any resemblance to a Great Narrative is coincidental.
--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?
Ninjing. Cosmic harmony, inner one-ness and the possibility of knocking an attacker's kidneys out through his ears. What's not to like?
OK, OK - it's not magic. I did like Nanny's frank exchange of views with Mrs Gogol. 'I got to admit though... sometimes, just one pin... but only when there ain't no alternative.'
--What do you think happens to Lilith?
I think she's still in the mirror trying to Find Herself.
Being stuck inside a mirror looking for a piece of your soul is quite a common trope, but I don't think anyone else has done 'Is this a trick question?' - that was a clever idea.
--Which characters would you like to hang out with?
The guy who was handing round the jug of rum at the carnival. And Mrs Pleasant, if she invites me to dinner.
No, not the witches. Best admired from a safe distance...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
Who do I want to hang out with? Human!Greebo. Wrowwll!
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
My favourite lines? To paraphtase (as the book is downstairs) "The vampite has been known to rise from the grave and the crypt, but never from the cat"
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
I think the first Pratchett I read as it came out in paperback was Equal Rites.
I think the three witches are Pratchett's best creations. Granny Weatherwax especially, although she's not the same without Nanny Ogg to offer a running commentary. She's developed somewhat - I think she'd be a bit more worldly-wise about foreign parts by the time of Tiffany Aching.
Best line: 'Is this a trick question?'
It looks like the moral of Witches Abroad is 'beware of stories', but of course it is a story itself (and the good guys win): the real moral is tell better stories, being more aware of what the stories leave out.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
--Which characters would you like to hang out with?
...
No, not the witches. Best admired from a safe distance...
Is there a safe distance? If necessary however far they'll come. - That is not explicit in the book, but it is implicit in the story.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?
I've them all upto Wee Free Men, mostly in order. I slowed and then stopped for a while and now I plan to catch up again.
quote:
--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?
Character? Granny Weatherwax.
Scene? the showdown with Mrs Googol.
Line? too many but I like the postcards Nanny sends home.
quote:
--Disliked characters, scenes, lines?
The Duc doesn't do a lot.
quote:
--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?
I guess the point here is that if you try to squeeze people into a pre-determined narrative then you end up being the bad guy even if you think you're doing good. But I like stories and I think we all use them to make sense of the otherwise chaotic world. I think Pratchett thinks so too, and uses them as such, just not in this book.
quote:
--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?
By this stage, Pratchett has established that magic, whilst powerful and useful, is often more of a harm than a hindrance. Granny is the epitome of the idea that a real magic user should spend their time trying not to do magic, except when they really need it, and then watch out!
quote:
--What do you think happens to Lilith?
I think she wakes up from a bad dream, sighs and falls back to sleep on a feather bed, with fluffy down-filled pillows.
quote:
--Which characters would you like to hang out with?
Possibly Magrat. Definitely not Granny.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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cross eyed bear
Shipmate
# 13977
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Posted
-Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?
The first Terry Pratchett I read was Equal Rites, which I picked up by accident from the library when I was about 12-13. It was unlike anything I had ever read before, and I loved the premise of the story. I think I've read them all over the years, some bought, some from the library, some of the earlier ones from my best friend from schooldays, whose dad always bought the newest Pratchett . My favourites tend to be those featuring the witches.
--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?
I loved the scenes with the vampire trying to get into the hostel windows, and eventually meeting Greebo (I agree, "...has never returned from the cat" is one of my favourite lines, too). Not only is it visually very funny, the humour is heightened by the fact that the witches don't have a clue what has just happened.
I'm fascinated by Granny Weatherwax's character - as Nanny says, someone who would naturally be nasty, but follows her duty to be 'good'. Someone who is clearly has a powerful gift for magic, but chooses to not always use it.
--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?
There are certain story frameworks which are used again and again, sometimes with a twist. Pratchett has taken this a level further. Real life is not a story, and is messy. Trying to control real life and contain it in stories is messy too. It has side effects (such as the 'stories' happening in the woods, which I think was 'leakage' from the big story in Genua). Crucially, controlling and containing doesn't allow the characters to really live.
--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?
Magic in the Discworld is a force, and a gift which certain people have. It is the same force/gift for each of the three, but is practised in different ways. Lilith's has gone to her head. She seems to have believed it gave her either a right or a duty to control others, because she could. This could be what is behind her assertion that she is the 'good one'. At first I wasn't sure whether she really believed this or not. Lilith uses her magic to control people and events until everything around her is crafted and contained into a story she authors. However, although she believes she is in control, the magic has taken control of her and she has lost herself.
Mrs Gogol has the same force/gift, but coming from a different culture to our three witches (and indeed Lilith), practises it in a different way. This had shades of universalism for me -same force, different ways of practising.
Mrs Gogol also runs the risk of being overcome by her magic, hence Granny's assertion that she can't decide which side Mrs Gogol is on. This is particularly evident in the standoff between Granny and Mrs. G at the ball. The magic nearly overcomes her, but once Granny wins power from her, crucially, Mrs Gogol is able to accept that
she needs to let go in order to be let go.
Granny clearly has a strong magical gift. I believe in one of the other books, she is compared to the Discworld legend Black Aliss who, crucially, 'went bad' as she was overtaken by the magic so strong in her. I think this is behind Granny's choice not to use pure magic that often, although she clearly can when she has to (the fire trick, hypnotising Magrat, borrowing minds). Although she only uses pure magic when there isn't really an alternative, she creates the same effect with another type of magic, headology. This involves people believing certain things, and by believing things, they become true. The effect of this is that people become the magic themselves - rebuilding the old woman's cottage; giving Granny clothes and chutney; choosing not to do certain things because of the belief of what may happen. Granny uses herself as the 'magic' and knows exactly who she is.
--What do you think happens to Lilith?
Either she is still in the maze of mirrors trying to find herself, or she gradually disippates into many reflections until there is nothing left of her
--Which characters would you like to hang out with? I don't think I'd like to hang out with any of them!
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"One false step in my direction, you'd better believe in the resurrection" Stillgoe & Skellern's "Mrs Beamish"
Posts: 120 | From: Southern Germany | Registered: Jul 2008
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
I've read just about all the discworld books. I feel that the most recent aren't up to the standard of the earlier ones - not really surprising in light of Terry Pratchett's medical condition. I've just bought - and read and enjoyed - his guide to the folklore of the Discworld which shows how prevalent some stories really are.
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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cattyish
Wuss in Boots
# 7829
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Posted
--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?
I think I've read them all except some of the peripheral and non-Discworld ones. This one I had skim read before, so this was a nice chance to revisit it in a bit more detail.
--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?
"The invisible people knew that happiness is not the natural state of mind, and is never achieved from the outside in."
"It is almost impossible to develop decent swordsmanship when you seem to have run into a food mixer that is biting your ear off."
--Disliked characters, scenes, lines?
I don't exactly dislike Casanunda, but I wish he'd turned up in a few earlier places so he could be established as a more rounded character. He could have woken up in the sleeping castle, shaken a few bits of ivy out of his beard and promised to pursue the evil witches in return for a kiss from the princess.
--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?
How can you not manipulate and change a story? As soon as a new person hears or reads a story it has new significance.
In fiction, a story needs certain attributes in order to survive. It needs to be engaging, not put people off with inconsistent patterns and go somewhere satisfying. Not everyone wants a happy ending, but an ending is important to get a story into print.
In journalism you're not really telling everything, just what you hope your readers/ listeners/ watchers will engage with.
I'm not sure that our lives are really stories at all. There's not really a neat arc to real life. There are few real endings because someone is still getting on with it.
--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?
I tend to see this as a bit like talking about, well, any career. Plumbing for instance. Lilith would buy the most expensive shiny fittings and then use a hammer to make the old infrastructure fit them. Granny Weatherwax would do a basic job which would hold water for centuries. Magrat would do endless research and then just not quite make her work as solid as Granny's. Nanny Ogg would call in a relative to do the work while smoking a pipe and supervising.
--What do you think happens to Lilith?
Her essence is stuck in the mirrors, so her body is left to die.
Possibly.
--Which characters would you like to hang out with?
I like Nanny Ogg's cookbook, but I'm not sure I could stand the smell of smoke for long. Magrat is probably more my type, though she's tougher than me. Granny Weatherwax would thoroughly intimidate me. Lilith is just no fun. Ella doesn't get to do anything of her own choosing until the carnival, when she just gets swept along in the crowd and doesn't really institute anything to indicate her underlying character. Probably I'd end up in the kitchen mixing something for Mrs Pleasant. Greebo can come in and have some fish heads.
I was thinking about the tendency of human beings (Magrat for instance) to seek far-off wisdom and thought I might lack that tendency. Then I realised that my favourite wise teacher lived 2000 years ago in forn parts. Maybe it is universal. Does anyone just seek wisdom locally?
Cattyish, away to dream of cat-faced blokes in leather.
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...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Posts: 1794 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jul 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?
I hadn't read Witches Abroad before. I've read a bunch of Terry Pratchett books. Some are better than others, and there's a tendency to run a subseries into the ground with too many books.
--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?
Granny is fun to watch from a distance but I didn't really connect with any of them. Granny is too selfish, Magrat is a combination of too timid and insistent on making wrong decisions. I did have a small moment of sympathy for the wolf.
--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?
I found the whole concept of stories odd. I was wondering how much Terry Pratchett was feeling trapped in the Discworld saga with demands from readers to continue them. I enjoyed the concept of the power of stories, but there didn't seem to much value given to the positive side of stories. There's some odd similarity with this book and the Sondheim "Into the Woods". There's a power in considering stories as traps, but there are a lot of repeating stories in Discworld.
--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?
I enjoyed Mrs. Gogol's power of cooking. Granny's vs. Lilith is somewhat about how the actions corrupt an abstract intent. My own feeling about magic is that Magic is like Theater in that you do it by restricting the complexity and richness of your universe to make an artificial creation. That seemed to be the case in the stories as frozen patterns that impose themselves in this book.
I also found the voodoo of Mrs. Gogol an uncomfortable stereotyping of a complicated religion. Arguably all of Discworld is irreverent, but this had it's own stereotypical view.;
--What do you think happens to Lilith?
I don't know. She may get lost in the mirror forever. She may trick someone chancing upon her to swap places and return for a sequel like the Master in Dr. Who. Or maybe she decides that stories are too much like looking at your reflection in a mirror and she doesn't want to do that again.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
I've just finished my re-reading, but am not quite ready to answer the questions yet. This is because the thing that is sticking in my mind is the fate of the coachmen and the footmen. It is unlike Pratchett's usual dealing with death. We get introduced to a decent bunch of men (no names, which was a bad sign, according to Diana Wynne Jones' analysis in "The Tough Guide to Fantasyland"), who are then subverted by Nanny Ogg in a fairly traditional style for narrativium. Then they are stamped into the floor by Lilith, without so much as a visit by Death, whom we know to be in the vicinity. Nanny and the others should have known the sort of thing likely to happen to those who cross Lilith from the incident of execution. Only Ella shows any reaction to what happens to them. The witches ignore what she says.
Having read all of Pratchett's Discworld books, this incident did jar. Even thieves seared by dragons get a proper reception in the hereafter.
My mind is currently too stuck in the world of the neatly wrapped sandwiches, the lonely bride, and the scrunched carapaces to comment further.
[ 22. January 2015, 12:55: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Jane R
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# 331
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Posted
Yes! You're absolutely right, Penny. That scene has always disturbed me, so much so that I skimmed over it this time which is probably why I didn't mention it.
Palimpsest: quote:
There's a power in considering stories as traps, but there are a lot of repeating stories in Discworld.
That's true: there's the 'Death Takes a Holiday' plot, the 'Captain Vimes Saves The Day' plot, the 'Odd Couple Fall in Love' plot... this was a fairly good example of the 'Granny Weatherwax Rearranges The Universe To Her Satisfaction' plot, I thought. I'm not fond of 'Death Takes a Holiday' - I think he works better as a running joke in someone else's story. Of the stories where Death has a major role, The Hogfather is the one I liked most.
I take your point about voodoo, but I think you are overlooking a couple of things:
1. This book was published (checks original date), good grief, over 20 years ago. In that time the way we think and talk about race issues (and voodoo) has changed quite a lot. Worth bearing in mind when you are considering the way the Genuans are portrayed.
2. I am not so sure as you that Mrs Gogol is meant to be a stereotype. Yes, Granny Weatherwax beats her in the grand confrontation scene at the end - but Granny can beat anybody when she puts her mind to it (including her own sister). And it seems to me that what the book is actually ridiculing is the way British tourists behave when they're abroad - stereotyping the locals, complaining about the food, sending silly postcards home... if you look at the conversation between Mrs Gogol and Nanny Ogg when they meet for the first time, Mrs Gogol flings the popular stereotype of witches back at Nanny and basically gives as good as she gets. We know Nanny and Granny aren't stereotypical witches, so the logical conclusion (if this conversation is anything to go by) is that Mrs Gogol isn't meant to be a stereotype either and there's more to voodoo than dolls and zombies.
Certainly, when I read it for the first time, I interpreted it as a challenge to the stereotyped Western view of voodoo.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Eigon
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# 4917
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Posted
The scene with Greebo and the vampire was the reason our cat got his middle name (Cathcart Greebo MacMole) - because he did actually manage to kill a bat.
And I used to hang out with someone like the witches - my gran was as close as you could get in this world to a cross between Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg! But then, she was from Lancashire, too, and the witches are basically old ladies from Lancashire - just look at old episodes of Coronation Street with Ena Sharples and Minnie Cauldwell sitting in the snug at the Rovers' Return!
I was always more of a Wet Henne myself.
I loved the postcards home, too - exactly what older ladies on holiday used to do (and may still do!).
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
I was also coping with having watched Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey concurrently with reading - he may be referencing Nordic filmography, but their Death has a lot in common with Pratchett's, doesn't he?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Wild Organist
Apprentice
# 12631
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Posted
Selective replies to Golden Key's questions, as some I have no answer to.
Lilith is left to run for eternity, searching for her original self. (This is, of course, lost inside the mirrors.) She will have no respite, and will never find herself, since this is stated in the narrative, that mirror magic may give something, but it takes more away, like most evil. I feel sorry for her, and hope that, at some point in her unending run, she may find a space, a personal purgatory in which she is offered the choices Granny originally offers, and accepts them.
My fave line is
"Vampires have risen from the dead, the grave and the crypt, but have never managed it from the cat."
Its understatement and dead-pan treatment just tickles my funnybone and makes me laugh, even as I type it for this.
Who I wd like to hang out with: all three witches are formidable as regards detecting bullsh*t, so I'd better not say any of them. Someone wanted Greebo as human. I'll take him as cat, sitting on my lap after his meal of fish heads, purring and going to sleep. My mum and dad had 3 cats, and my life doesn't permit me to have one at the moment. So any cat wd be welcome, especially one who could provide his own entertainment ;-)
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Be very careful what you wish for. You might just get it.
Posts: 50 | From: West Sussex | Registered: May 2007
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ArachnidinElmet
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# 17346
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Posted
I wasn't going to join in on this thread (although am reading/lurking) as my copy is in storage, but I've found the audio version with Sheila Hancock sat on my DVR, recorded from Radio 4 last year. If I get to listening to it in the next couple of days, I'll report back.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
You can explain things by saying that this was written 20 years ago (In the last century!) but it still needs explaining or hand waving which ruins the magic. I'm chewing on why one stereotype bothers me (and you'd have a hard time arguing Mrs Gogol isn't a magical Negro ) and another one like the three witches 3 doesn't. I think in part it's because he's weaving the witch stereotype into something richer and odder, and he's not doing that much of that with Mrs. Gogol although he is with Baron Samedi.
I think the last time Pratchett bothered me was when he was talking about Chinese pawnbrokers. It may be that I'm an American hypersensitive to racial stereotypes while the British are too busy with class to give a lot of time to racism.
Again, my point with the stories is that it seemed like he was talking about the hazards of his own unique way of weaving folklore and stories together. It seemed like he was complaining about the limitations of doing so. I may be over-reacting to the Alzheimers as well which probably didn't factor in as a "trapped by a frozen memory. Still it seems quite hostile to fictions.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Paul.
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# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
... you'd have a hard time arguing Mrs Gogol isn't a magical Negro
I'll have a go ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
For me, the essence of the magical negro trope is that it's a character with special powers (sometimes subtle, sometimes blatent) who exists primarily to help the white hero in their journey. They appear from nowhere and conveniently melt into the background when their job is done.
Mrs Gogol is none of that. She has agency. She has an agenda. She has a backstory and reasons for her actions that are nothing to do with helping the protagonists. She has her own path and gods help you if you get in the way. The fact that there's a showdown with Granny Weatherwax shows that.
I agree she may not be the most fully drawn in terms of personality but she's no cardboard cut-out either.
So, for me, she's only a magical negro in the most literal sense. And in a world where magic is real being literally magical isn't being the kind magical that the trope refers to. She doesn't show up and do something only she could do (in order to rescue/inspire/educate the white hero), there's at least four other characters that can do what she does (whether they would choose to is another matter).
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I think the last time Pratchett bothered me was when he was talking about Chinese pawnbrokers. It may be that I'm an American hypersensitive to racial stereotypes while the British are too busy with class to give a lot of time to racism.
[tangent]Funnily enough, I was reading that exact passage last night, if you mean in Night Watch, and to my eyes he's taking a dig at the old movie stereotype of funny things behind the scenes at a random oriental business (see "One of our Dinosaurs...", for a considerably more obvious example, rather than being racist in any particular way. After all, Thief of Time takes it firmly out of all the old king fu movies, and Monkey. I'll forgive the remark about Brits as you've made a dig back at Americans and, besides, you may be right. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) [/tangent]
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
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