Ship of Fools: pcc secretary

Thread: pcc secretary Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by recklessrat (# 17243) on :

Hi all,

I am about to become PCC secretary. Does anyone have useful hints/tips they could pass on, please?
All advice gratefully received. Thanks!

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :

You mean, other than 'Don't!'

Mrs. S, ex-PCC secretary and never going back [Devil]

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

I'd probably agree with the "Don't" but then it might not be all bad.

A suggestion is to introduce something from the Quaker Business Method [I was Clerk to my local meeting for a while] and at the end of a discussion prepare a draft minute and ask if that is okay - yes, it takes time BUT it saves oodles of time next meeting where folks can't argue about a minute!

Talk to the PP first but if they agree it will save you no end of angst.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Remember that none of it is that important. Don't let it get to you. And never think of the PCC members naked.

Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :

Hi recklessrat.
There are some really good internet resources and various diocese have their PCC secretary handbooks online. There are also books and so on giving the rules and regulations of PCCs which are sometimes useful to have access to if any queries around procedures arise.

Remember that while minute taking is often a large part of the role there are other responsibilities, I don't say this to scare you but hopefully to give you a confidence in your new role as an office bearer.

Good luck!

Choccie (also an ex PCC secretary)

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

Been secretary of various groups in my ignorant youth, not of PCC.

All I know is *I* cannot take minutes and participate in the discussion, both at once. Trying to do both in a meeting is frustrating and means neither is done well.

Also, people come up with lots of additional duties they assume is the secretary's job. Be ready to fend off assumptions you are the dumping ground for work.

(Assumptions come from the work environment where the word "secretary" means "makes phone calls, writes correspondence, reviews and improves correspondence and articles and speeches written by the bosses, files and retrieves papers, fetches coffee, and other duties as assigned", a lot more than "takes minutes" which is how the committee position is described when recruiting.)

Advices I have read, but I don't know if everyone agrees, are: (1) keep the minutes short, one page if you can, people will be pleased not to have to sit through detailed minutes review; (2) be sure to name people in the minutes and what they did, not just state what was discussed or decided; people like to be recognized and like to hear their name. (#2 may contradict #1.)

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

Just do what you're supposed to do and don't let anyone interfere. Ensure agendas are prepared and circulated in advance of the meeting, along with any supporting documents. Also, record the minutes accurately - i.e. what was discussed and what was decided, not what the Vicar, or anyone else, think should have been discussed and decided.

If you're not sure what your role involves there's information on the Church of England's website.

Posted by recklessrat (# 17243) on :

Thanks all. I thought that 'don't' might come quite high up there!! I esp like the suggestion of mentioning Pcc members by name in minutes, there's a few I can think of who would like that! Naked though - terrifying!

I've been told I can be secretary without becoming a proper Pcc member and I think that's what will happen. I guess this may limit my scope for actual input into meetings? I probably need to check diocesan stuff surrounding being a trustee etc - I'm not sure what the deal is with that.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by recklessrat:
I've been told I can be secretary without becoming a proper Pcc member and I think that's what will happen. I guess this may limit my scope for actual input into meetings?

Probably if you are there you can toss in your 2 cents on occasion. I've showed up at (not PCC) committee meetings and been asked what I think. Non members don't vote, is all.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by recklessrat:
... I've been told I can be secretary without becoming a proper Pcc member ...

That's probably the easier option - that way you can concentrate completely on recording the minutes of the meetings without having to think what your own opinion (and how you'd express it) might be.

I have no experience as a PCC secretary, but for several years I've been the Recording Secretary (a post with a small honorarium) for the local Anglican Cemetery Committee, which looks after the two Anglican cemeteries in St. John's.

I don't have to have any input apart from taking minutes and distributing them, and my usual practice is to type them up as soon as I get home from the meeting and e-mail them to the Committee chairman, who makes whatever amendments he thinks fit, sends them back to me and I send them on to the members.

Good luck! [Smile]

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :

When I was PCC secretary, our vicar's wife was also on the committee. We'd be wombling along in the approved Anglican manner, towards the end of the agenda, and then - quite suddenly - she would fish some papers out of her capacious handbag and completely derail whatever discussion we were having [Eek!]

Those days are gone, but what we have now is a situation where sub-committees discuss issues and report back, in theory for the PCC to rubber-stamp.But no - the PCC insist on then chewing over the whole boiling lot AGAIN [Mad]

thus completely negating any time-saving achieved [Mad]

Mrs. S - and breathe ....

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

The old saying is that the perfect committee has just three members, one of whom is off sick and another of whom is away on holiday.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

There are, as suggested upthread, people who are utterly agenda-blind. This is not just a PCC phenomenon- these menaces can pop up anywhere. If you can, as soon as you feel comfortable in doing so, assert the importance of sticking to what is on the paper, and getting through it reasonably efficiently, you will be doing the PCC a great service.
It depends, of course, on the nature of your relationship with your chair (PP), but do not forget that yours is potentially a very influential position, for good or ill. Remember that Stalin and his imitators were all 'General Secretaries'!

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

quote:
Originally posted by recklessrat:
Thanks all. I thought that 'don't' might come quite high up there!! I esp like the suggestion of mentioning Pcc members by name in minutes, there's a few I can think of who would like that! Naked though - terrifying!

I've been told I can be secretary without becoming a proper Pcc member and I think that's what will happen. I guess this may limit my scope for actual input into meetings? I probably need to check diocesan stuff surrounding being a trustee etc - I'm not sure what the deal is with that.

There are advantages in the PCC Secretary not being a voting member. You can be seen as there to record accurately and impartially. I don't think you'd be a trustee unless you were a full member of the PCC. Trustees are legally responsible and can be made personally liable for their decisions - which is why things need to be done properly.

Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :

Cultivate your predecessor, if he or she is still around. I took over from one of the matriarchs of the parish when I became PCC secretary. She had resigned some time before and someone else had taken the job on, but the matriarch wasn't fully satisfied with her and at one point they had a fight (though fortunately by phone). The new secretary eventually resigned and the matriarch took over again as acting secretary, as no one else wanted the job. I foolishly thought that this would be a good and self-sacrificial thing to volunteer for, and made a point of deferring to the matriarch when I started and asking her advice, which worked pretty well.

I can't give you any more sage advice as some weird stuff blew up - it was a fairly dysfunctional parish - not long afterwards and we left the church so I had to resign, but good luck!

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

When I was in the same role, I took my laptop to the meeting and had a template ready in which to type the minutes as the meeting progressed. I used styles in Word to manage numbering, motions and resolutions.

If I was happy with them then I would set them to email as soon as I was next connected to the internet. If I felt they needed polishing then I would leave them until I had a little time.

While I sent mine directly out to the whole membership, there is something to be said for passing them to the chair first, especially if you are not a member. The chair then takes responsibility for the accuracy of the minutes.

Posted by recklessrat (# 17243) on :

Thanks all, that's really helpful stuff. My predecessor is still around, and my relationship with the chair is reasonable, so that's something. There has been some funny business in the past, but not so much, I think, these days. I have been promised plenty of files from my predecessor so some nice bedtime reading for a while...!

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

Re approval of minutes...

Send the draft minutes to the Chair and Churchwardens for them to check. Then send them out with the agenda of the next meeting with clear instructions that all corrections should be sent to you BEFORE the meeting. At the meeting, the minutes are then just accepted.

That way, you should hopefully avoid the deeply frustrating (yet commonplace) situation where you spend half an hour discussing corrections to minutes of a meeting most people won't even remember. By the time you've done that, everyone is ready to give up and go home.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
When I was in the same role, I took my laptop to the meeting and had a template ready in which to type the minutes as the meeting progressed. I used styles in Word to manage numbering, motions and resolutions.

My wife does this, it's a good idea provided you remember to update the date of the current meeting!

A useful point is to clearly indicate any agreed "Action Points" and who is to action them.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Re approval of minutes...

Send the draft minutes to the Chair and Churchwardens for them to check. Then send them out with the agenda of the next meeting with clear instructions that all corrections should be sent to you BEFORE the meeting. At the meeting, the minutes are then just accepted.

Yes. Another thought: send out the (checked) Minutes asap after the meeting, as a stimulus to action ... then send them again just before the next meeting, as an aide-memoire (easy with email). Then no-one can possibly say, "I didn't see the Minutes". Probably not necessary though if meetings are (say) monthly, but useful if they're three- or six-monthly.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
I don't think you'd be a trustee unless you were a full member of the PCC. Trustees are legally responsible and can be made personally liable for their decisions - which is why things need to be done properly.

And if you're a paid Administrator (which I presume you're not, but some churches have them) then you cannot legally be a Trustee.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
A useful point is to clearly indicate any agreed "Action Points" and who is to action them.

Also - include a date by when the action should be done.

It may also help to have all uncompleted action points listed in summary at the end of the minutes. Only remove an action point when it has been done.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

It is worth being clear if the minutes are intended to be a record of the discussiojn, or just the agreed out come of the discussion. Outcome and action points are a lot quicker and easier to do, but less useful if you later need to be able to check if such and such a point was raised.

If you need to record the discussion, you might find the SBARD format useful.

Situation: Roof is crumbling
Background: We have 2p and Mrs Wharfendale is sentimentally attached to the north gable where her husband's ashes were mounted in a decorative truss
Analysis: Miss Carterpoll helpfully outlined the resuls of the architects survey, they suggest either corrugated iron roof part exchanging the raw materials of the old roof to pay for it or selling the soul of Mr Wharfendale to Satan thereby funding an English Heritage approved restoration. Mrs Wharfendale placed her objections to the latter plan on record.
Decision: PCC agreed to have a corrugated iron roof, but the decorative truss containing Mr Wharfendale's ashes will be salvaged and attached to the new roof. Actions: Vicar to arrange.

[ 17. March 2015, 16:00: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

So - although it's been a collective decision - the Vicar will still get all the flak ... [Devil]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Mrs Wharfendale is sentimentally attached to the north gable where her husband's ashes were mounted in a decorative truss.

Sounds very painful, surgery is clearly the only option.

Posted by recklessrat (# 17243) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

Situation: Roof is crumbling
Background: We have 2p and Mrs Wharfendale is sentimentally attached to the north gable where her husband's ashes were mounted in a decorative truss
Analysis: Miss Carterpoll helpfully outlined the resuls of the architects survey, they suggest either corrugated iron roof part exchanging the raw materials of the old roof usefulfor it or selling the soul of Mr Wharfendale to Satan thereby funding an English Heritage approved restoration. Mrs Wharfendale placed her objections to the latter plan on record.
Decision: PCC agreed to have a corrugated iron roof, but the decorative truss containing Mr Wharfendale's ashes will be salvaged and attached to the new roof. Actions: Vicar to arrange.

that's great!

Thanks all for your help.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

I realised I mssed out R !

It should go:

Situation
Background
Analysis
Recommendation (Miss Catterpol thinks we should sell Mr Wharfendale's soul to Satan as the renovation will be far more aesthetically pleasing.)
Decision

It originated in the nuclear industry I think spreading to military and then health settings. It is intended to convey information quickly, and be clear about what opinion is needed. Trying to get away from hint and hope, when for example a healthcare assistant says to the sister "Mr Anderson is looking a bit peaky" when they mean, would you please come and do his physical obs I think he is going steadily bluer.

[ 19. March 2015, 11:15: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Mrs Wharfendale's objections might then be properly noted next to the recommendation rather than in the analysis section.

[ 19. March 2015, 11:16: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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