Thread: Host & Admin Day Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
Happy birthday to me, happy birthday to me, happy birthday dear me-eeeeeeeee


happy birthday to me!

Yes shipmates, 50 years ago today I came into the world to mark this auspicious occasion, today is to be HOST AND ADMIN DAY!

This is the day when hosts & admins get to enjoy themselves and anything can happen in the next 24 hours or so. (It might be longer. It depends how mu** we're enjoying ourselves). Brace yourselves for a bumpy ride!

Please note that the Eighth Day board will be a safe haven from the madness as they have chosen not to take part.

[ 18. September 2014, 05:56: Message edited by: Spike ]
 

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Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :
 
***** ******** Spike

Could be some light relief from the R*******um...
 

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Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :
 
***** Easter Spike

 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
Have fun and enjoy your day, Spike.

Since my school year are all hitting this auspicious event this year, * suppose * 'd better ponder my own marking of the occasion in about seven months time.
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
As an 8th Day host, * would take part, but * 'm not going to be around for the next 15 or so hours, and with another host on holiday it wasn't going to be easy to play H&A day.

***** ******** Spike.
 

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Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :
 
Woohoo - the word R*******um appears to have been asterisked

[ 18. September 2014, 06:42: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

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Crap spouted by kingsfold:
Woohoo - the word R*******um appears to have been asterisked

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The word what?

Anyway, have a good one Spike.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
What ****land is doing today. Although my eyes keep wanting to fill in the asterisks as "Redrum".

[ETA: ah crap, that's been spiked too?]

[ 18. September 2014, 07:09: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 

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Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on :
 
r - e - f - e - r - e - n - d - u -m

as has S - c - o - t


xpost

[ 18. September 2014, 07:11: Message edited by: Zoey ]
 

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Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
***** ******** Spike. Delighted this coincides with my 'annual leave day to myself just because * can' day lve the renamed titles on each board.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Life begins at ********fty!

***** ******** Spike!

(edited to add h-a-p-p-y b-1-r-t-h-d-a-y !!)



[ 18. September 2014, 07:18: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
What a good day to choose. Not just because it's your ********, Spike, but also because if all the ****s are going bananas today, we might as well all join in and make it one big crazy party.

Here's an ***l***/****t*** border crazy sign to add to the fun!
 

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Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 
He he! Let the fun commence! Hippy Bathday Spike!
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
A highly enjoyable anniversary to Spike, and a most pleasant H&A-tide! May none be hurt, even though some may hope to get away s-c-o-tfree.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
OK, hosts and admins, you really have gone for crazy this time - my picture won't load because it has certain numbers in it. Spike, it's all your fault, couldn't you have chosen to be born on a different day, or something?!
 

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Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
Felicitations, Spike.

* knew it was HnA day because the board told me to bugger off. Not a new experience, granted, but never so direct.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Unrestful, or what?!

(the sign declared that the border was closed 'for training')
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
You can still access the pic via Chorister's link, just need to click on its mini-version for prompt enlargement. - Yet, is all this bordering on insanity?
 

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Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 
* 've rather enjoyed the ****t*** r*******um thread but ne* posts are no* rendered almost unreadable by random asterisks. *ill these be removed *hen this 'Day' is over?
 

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Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :
 

quote:

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Crap spouted by Spike:
***** ******** to me, ***** ******** to me, ***** ******** dear me-eeeeeeeee

***** ******** to me!

Yes shipmates, ** years ago today * came into the *orld to mark this auspicious occasion, today is to be HOST AND ADMIN DAY!

This is the day *hen hosts & admins get to enjoy themselves and anything can happen in the ne*t 24 hours or so. (It might be longer. It depends ho* mu** *e're enjoying ourselves). Brace yourselves for a bumpy ride!

Please note that the Eighth Day board *ill be a safe haven from the madness as they have chosen not to take part.

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:*hat?: :brick*all:
 

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Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :
 
Well, let's see how this gets auto-edited, you weird bunch of lovable rascals. * mean, what is the meaning of all this jolly randomness? Have you all gone completely charming?

Depending on how that gets done, it could seem really rather abusive.
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
It appears they hate the double-u.
 

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Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
whatever.
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
Whence? Where? Why? Who? What? Whither?

Whatever indeed.
 

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Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
Life's difficult enough, so * 'll be back when the H&A have fin***ed having fun with the board
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Crap spouted by Roseofsharon:
Life's difficult enough, so * 'll be back when the H&A have fin***ed having fun with the board

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quote:

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Crap spouted by Spike:
***** ******** to me, ***** ******** to me, ***** ******** dear me-eeeeeeeee


***** ******** to me!

Yes shipmates, ** years ago today * came into the world to mark this auspicious occasion, today is to be HOST AND ADMIN DAY!

This is the day when hosts & admins get to enjoy themselves and anything can happen in the next 24 hours or so. (It might be longer. It depends how mu** we're enjoying ourselves). Brace yourselves for a bumpy ride!

Please note that the Eighth Day board will be a safe haven from the madness as they have chosen not to take part.

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Hail thee, festival day!


 

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Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 

quote:

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Crap spouted by Spike:
***** ******** to me, ***** ******** to me, ***** ******** dear me-eeeeeeeee


***** ******** to me!

Yes shipmates, ** years ago today * came into the world to mark this auspicious occasion, today is to be HOST AND ADMIN DAY!

This is the day when hosts & admins get to enjoy themselves and anything can happen in the next 24 hours or so. (It might be longer. It depends how mu** we're enjoying ourselves). Brace yourselves for a bumpy ride!

Please note that the Eighth Day board will be a safe haven from the madness as they have chosen not to take part.

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***** ******** Spike and have a nice day! You are a Friday's child.
 

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Posted by Ann (# 94) on :
 
Merry Birthmas Spike
 

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Posted by Cthulhu (# 16186) on :
 
MY VERY BEST W***ES
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Give it a rest Kelly. Besides, guess who has borrowed your axe for the duration.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
First of all, check the IP, second of all, eye will be nice and refrain from pressing the detonator on the theft prevention device * have installed on the axe.
For now.

***** ********, Spike!

[ 18. September 2014, 16:31: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
***** ******** Smike - have a lovely time !
 

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Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
Not sure where to post this but just had to say it...
After a tricky and tiring day * came onto the Ship and was thrilled to be told to bugger off and then find all this crazy stuff.
The only thing that * can't cope with is the comic sans script- it took me back to my teaching days when we had to use it. Not good.
Everything else to do with your H and A spree is just genius!
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Here's hoping it has been an auspicious day for you, Spike.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Hipy papy bthudthday Spike (as Owl would say),
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
* 'm afraid * won't be able to join in very much. Congratulations Spike and much fun to all!
 

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Oh, at least come and vote in the poll of polls.
 

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Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :
 
Holy hell people.

What next indeed.
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Are we going to auction off the Hostly Powers?

* soooo want to be the first Calvinist Host in Eccles.
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
What're you offering?

And, before you think Calvin is unusual, remember that we've had Quakers and worse.
 

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Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :
 

quote:

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Crap spouted by Ariston:
And, before you think Calvin is unusual, remember that we've had Quakers and worse.

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quote:

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Crap spouted by TheAlethiophile:

Mind you, even crisp packets tend to be noisier than Quakers!

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quote:

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Crap spouted by Barnabas62:
Didn't one of our resident Quakers Doublethink do some Eccles Hosting at one time?

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Yep.
 

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Yes, during the days of Laetare
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

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Crap spouted by Ariston:
What're you offering?

And, before you think Calvin is unusual, remember that we've had Quakers and worse.

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quote:

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Crap spouted by J***ie Jon:
…also a former member of the Church of ****land (Methodist at the time)

J***ie

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quote:

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Crap spouted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Are we going to auction off the Hostly Powers?

* soooo want to be the first Calvinist Host in Eccles.

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quote:

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Crap spouted by J***ie Jon:

quote:

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Crap spouted by Ariston:
What're you offering?

And, before you think Calvin is unusual, remember that we've had Quakers and worse.

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* think Babybear might dispute that title as well!! She was a Mystery Worship host and also a former member of the Church of ****land (Methodist at the time)

J***ie

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quote:

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Crap spouted by Caissa:
Have the 24 hours expired?

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Much like many interpretations of the Genesis creation account, "Day" cannot be assumed to refer to a literal period of 24 hours.

[ 19. September 2014, 14:19: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
* was precise about that deliberately and Eccles is officially a merger between Mystery Worship and Small Fire boards. Just as * was precise about her being Methodist although former CofS.

J***ie
 

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Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
* 'll be staying away until order is made out of chaos.
 

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Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
As you w***.
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
This is a bit late - was travelling home yesterday and today after holidays.

Hippie birdie, Spike.
 

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Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
oh, ***** ******** for yesterday!
 

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Posted by Bernard Mahler (# 10852) on :
 
Glad for Spike!
And splendid to know * 'm not the sole shipmate told to bugger off!
 

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Posted by TallPoppy (# 16294) on :
 
* 'll be pleased when all this nonsense is over. It might have been moderately funny for a bit for those of a robust disposition like me, but a dear friend of mine over on a private board has been genuinely hurt and upset. Where's the fun in that?

Tall 'disgruntled' Poppy
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Not a fan of H&A days myself, TP. But can offer no complaint if it mitigates the load for the deluded folk who operate this place.
 

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Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :
 

quote:

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Crap spouted by TallPoppy:
* 'll be pleased when all this nonsense is over.

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quote:

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Crap spouted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:

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Crap spouted by TallPoppy:
* 'll be pleased when all this nonsense is over.

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You're not alone.

This is all very "in". Too smug for my taste. See y'all later.

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Agreed. As my late mother used to say at yet another nine year old joke, "small things, please small minds."
 

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Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
Just to increase the rain on the parade, * also find this buggering about to be un*****-making.
 

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Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :
 
"bugger off, agingjb". You say, repeatedly. Eventually, * 'll get message.

[ 20. September 2014, 11:13: Message edited by: agingjb ]
 

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Posted by Nanny Ogg (# 1176) on :
 
* 'll be glad when this so called fun is over. There are quite a few upset people on the "Waving not drowning" private board.

IMO it should also have been omitted from the prayer thread. Not good to have your prayer requests mocked or made insignificant by * and other stupid changes. Imagine how you would feel if you needed prayer for illness or the death of a loved one.

Next year, think first and keep the "fun" to appropriate boards and threads. The Hosts and Admins day is a great idea but the lack of sensitivity has ruined the fun this year.
 

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Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :
 

quote:

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Crap spouted by Nanny Ogg:
Next year, think first and keep the "fun" to appropriate boards and threads. The Hosts and Admins day is a great idea but the lack of sensitivity has ruined the fun this year.

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* normally enjoy the Festivals of H&As but not so much this year. Whatever the line is between cruelty/malice and wit and rough and tumble fun seems to have been crossed in places.

The 'Grievances' thread is ace
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
* guess some of this is "unintended consequences", Nanny Ogg. * 'm sure the point has got across - it certainly has to me.

A bit of knockabout daftness is something most of us enjoy, and one of our guidelines is 'don't be easily offended'. It's a significant part of the overall ethos here.

But * can appreciate that there are times and places. It may not be possible to insulate the folks who get hurt (rather than those who just take umbrage), but * 'm sure this H & A team will do some evaluating and see what we can learn.
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
It's only an inside joke if you keep yourself on the outside. Join in the chaos, get on my lawn you kids, and it will all make sense.
 

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Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
Telling people to suck it up sounds very much like what a bully says. What happens if we don't enjoy it?
 

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
* am struggling to understand why something that has been done pretty much annually for a decade, is suddenly a problem this year ?

ETA * think previous feedback had been that it was confusing if you didn't realise it was going on - hence on the last two occasions there being announcements on the front of the board and in The Styx.

[ 20. September 2014, 13:17: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 

quote:

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Crap spouted by Horseman Bree:
Telling people to suck it up sounds very much like what a bully says. What happens if we don't enjoy it?

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quote:

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posted by Doublethink:
* am struggling to understand why something that has been done pretty much annually for a decade, is suddenly a problem this year ?

ETA * think previous feedback had been that it was confusing if you didn't realise it was going on - hence on the last two occasions there being announcements on the front of the board and in The Styx.

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quote:

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From Nanny Ogg:
* 'll be glad when this so called fun is over. There are quite a few upset people on the "Waving not drowning" private board.

IMO it should also have been omitted from the prayer thread. Not good to have your prayer requests mocked or made insignificant by * and other stupid changes. Imagine how you would feel if you needed prayer for illness or the death of a loved one.

Next year, think first and keep the "fun" to appropriate boards and threads. The Hosts and Admins day is a great idea but the lack of sensitivity has ruined the fun this year.

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quote:

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by Huia:

quote:

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posted by Doublethink:
* am struggling to understand why something that has been done pretty much annually for a decade, is suddenly a problem this year ?

ETA * think previous feedback had been that it was confusing if you didn't realise it was going on - hence on the last two occasions there being announcements on the front of the board and in The Styx.

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For some reason changes made to the boards during H&A days have not appeared in the Waving Board in previous years, this year they have.

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• more of the changes have been universal and not board specific. Thus, they make differences to Waving as well as the normal boards.
• The ways they have been made this time play on insecurities that are common amongst people on "Waving not Drowning". Doublethink, you will know that with people who find social interaction difficult, that being negative about them there is detrimental to them. There are such people on waving, they tend not to come onto the main boards for just this reason. This is not to say the greeting can not be changed, but please be aware that it goes beyond those on the main board. People on "waving not drowning" would not be upset to be told "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" (* think that was a previous years one) or maybe "More f*** food yum yum!", but are to being told to "bugger off". The first two are general jokes the third they perceive as someone being directly rude to them personally.
• Thirdly the asterisks seem to have been chosen for sequences of letters used rather more often on Waving than previous years.
• Fourthly, mea culpa, by the time * had got around to spotting it, some shipmates were already hurt. Normally, as one of the few shipmates who is regularly on both, * manage to post a warning on Waving before this happens

quote:

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***** ****** ** ****:
***** ********* ****** ***** ** * ******** ******* ********

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quote:

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Crap spouted by Ariston:

quote:

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Crap spouted by Horseman Bree:
Telling people to suck it up sounds very much like what a bully says. What happens if we don't enjoy it?

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First, you put away the accusations of bullying. This has been going on for [* ]years.[/* ] And those of us who enjoy the break from the normal straitjackets and confines of po-faced respectability and Seriousness find this the best part of the Ship.

Second, * don't enjoy football at the local university. Every time there's a game, it mucks up the local traffic. So what do * do? * deal with it. * roll with the punches—and stay off campus for a bit. If this is causing you such insolvable existential distress, maybe you should have a look at that big green warning up top.

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quote:

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Crap spouted by Doublethink:
* am struggling to understand why something that has been done pretty much annually for a decade, is suddenly a problem this year ?

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quote:

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Crap spouted by Spike:

As all members of the private boards are shipmates, they will have seen the notice on the front page that it is H&A day. They will also have seen the the message appears on every board and * would hope that would be enough for them to realise that they are not being singled out.

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quote:

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Crap spouted by J***ie Jon:

quote:

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Crap spouted by Spike:

As all members of the private boards are shipmates, they will have seen the notice on the front page that it is H&A day. They will also have seen the the message appears on every board and * would hope that would be enough for them to realise that they are not being singled out.

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No! That assumption is wrong. A number of Waving have withdrawn from using the main ship. You have to have a specific link access Waving. Indeed there is no link from the Front page to Waving! Ι know Ι have tried when Ι have lost my bookmark. So people going to Waving are specifically not going via the main boards.

My personal order is to go to Waving and then from Waving to the main boards, not the other way around.

Jεngiε

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quote:

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Crap spouted by J***ie Jon:
Define Regular

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quote:

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Crap spouted by Spike:

quote:

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Crap spouted by J***ie Jon:
Define Regular

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At the very least, when you see something untoward happening on the board!

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quote:

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Crap spouted by J***ie Jon:
The pain was caused by the untoward which made what they felt was a safe place "unsafe". So they should check the main boards to see if we really meant the pain we caused or if we were just joking. Doesn't sound good does it!

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quote:

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Crap spouted by Doublethink:
* am concerned that your posts it makes it sound as if Waving is being used as a therapeutic space. (As for it being a 'safe' space - that may be true to an extent - but it is a non-encrypted site on the internet.)

If so, that is a problem - because there is not the infrastructure for that. Nor, as far as * know, either the insurance or the expertise.

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quote:

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Crap spouted by RuthW:
And has "Bugger off, _____" suddenly caused you all to behave as if Waving were Purgatory or Hell?

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quote:

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Crap spouted by Doublethink:
* am concerned that your posts it makes it sound as if Waving is being used as a therapeutic space. (As for it being a 'safe' space - that may be true to an extent - but it is a non-encrypted site on the internet.)

If so, that is a problem - because there is not the infrastructure for that. Nor, as far as * know, either the insurance or the expertise.

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quote:

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Crap spouted by lily pad:
Sorry, the term may be acceptable there and maybe it is just one more pond difference we have to put up with but it really has gone too far. Sometimes jokes just aren't funny.

Staying away for one day obviously didn't work. Have looked over the boards and not seen anything amusing. Instead, it seems like many have left for the duration. If there is something fun going on somewhere, please point me in the right direction.

Will be very glad to see the end of this round.

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quote:

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Posted by Ariston:
*snip* ...the normal straitjackets and confines of po-faced respectability and Seriousness...
*snip*
Look, we'll all get to go back to our usual hidebound, button-down, serious and respectable selves ready to drink weak tea and make polite conversation here in just a day or two. The inauthenticity and stultifying dullness of average everydayness will return, and we'll all continue on as if nothing had happened. It will be okay. * 'll put away the brimstone scented candles, SPK will lose his (delightfully abused) powers, and those of us who crave the chaos will start waiting for the next H&A Day to return.

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quote:

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Crap spouted by RuthW:
And has "Bugger off, _____" suddenly caused you all to behave as if Waving were Purgatory or Hell?

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quote:

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Crap spouted by deano:
Sounds to me like your [sic] saying H&A days allow H&As to ignore the rules of each board and treat them all like Hell; that you don't have to respect the principles of each forum.

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quote:

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Hence you can hand out personal attacks to shipmates in Waving Not Drowning because "hey! It's just a bit of fun!"

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You've lost me. Who made a personal attack and which individual has been personally attacked?

[ 20. September 2014, 19:39: Message edited by: Spike ]
 

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Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
This may related to a comment by itsarumdo on a thread "lacking proper directions...." (it's moved a few times so not sure where it is now!) asking if waving had moved.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
I sincerely hope everyone will enjoy the Host and Admin Talk Like A Pirate Brewfest Festival (no, wait, some of that is World of Warcraft) but I'm kind of looking forward to when things get back to normal, myself.
 

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Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
PS Hoppy Birfday Spike!
 

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Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
BWA HA HA HA HAAA HAAA!

quote:

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Crap spouted by deano:
This is no longer funny. In fact I would suggest that if a H&A does find the idea of deliberate upsetting people in that particular forum funny, then that H&A really needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:

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Posted by Ariston:
*snip* ...the normal straitjackets and confines of po-faced respectability and Seriousness...
*snip*
Look, we'll all get to go back to our usual hidebound, button-down, serious and respectable selves ready to drink weak tea and make polite conversation here in just a day or two. The inauthenticity and stultifying dullness of average everydayness will return, and we'll all continue on as if nothing had happened. It will be okay. * 'll put away the brimstone scented candles, SPK will lose his (delightfully abused) powers, and those of us who crave the chaos will start waiting for the next H&A Day to return.

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Is that really what you think about how the Ship runs most of the time? How sad.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RooK:
BWA HA HA HA HAAA HAAA!

quote:

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Crap spouted by deano:
This is no longer funny. In fact I would suggest that if a H&A does find the idea of deliberate upsetting people in that particular forum funny, then that H&A really needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

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This, from you? A demonstrated wind-up merchant on their last straw of being permitted to even be here? This is something you want to make a stand as having an important opinion about?

[Wipes tear from eye.]

Just made the whole thing worthwhile, really.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:
I can state categorically that no changes were made to any of the private boards and that no individual was targeted on any of the private boards.

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In that case I apologise for m remarks above.

But where have the complaints come from?
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The welcome message across all boards, including the 8th Day, was changed to 'Bugger Off ...' which is what seems to have caused the offence.
 

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Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :
 
Sigh.
On every board on every page there is a message in the bar under the board title.
Mine currently reads >>Hello, Patdys [log out]

It for a time read 'bugger off Patdys'.

What distresses me is the comma.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Nobody's talking about banning anyone, deano.

I have been ill this last month and a half, so haven't been able to join in the fun, but my perception of this year is that it has much LESS aggressive than it has in years past . Hell, the first year it happened I got my avatar changed to a nude pole dancer. Nobody paid attention to a damn thing I actually posted for two days!

I understand that the the people on Waving Not Drowning were probably pretty alarmed at what seemed like random personal attacks in a board that they in fact pay for, unlike the rest of us. I am so used to recognizing the automatic format changes as being universal that it didn't even phase me when I saw them. I hope at least that issue is cleared up.

The origin of H/A Day is good to recap-- in celebration of her 10, 000 post, and in frustration at several complaints about hostly tyranny in the face of what is actually a pretty moderate hosting style compared to some boards, Erin decided to show us what the world would be like if things were really arbitrary. So, we celebrate H/A Day to celebrate Erin, first off, and second to celebrate the fact that this is a well-moderated board where people have an unusual latitude to speak their mind.

An us v. Them attitude on either side of the debate is unhelpful, imo-- the ship needs h/a's to run smoothly, the ship needs shipmates to run at all. As Lyda said, I think the hope of the Adminosphere, every year, is that the Shipmates will find ways to join in with the silliness and have fun with us.

[ 20. September 2014, 21:08: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :
 
I think the host and admins should send chocolate to all the shipmates to honour our contributions to the ship.

I am happy to co-ordinate the receivership.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Tell you what, instead we will give everyone free membership to a message board! :
You get a membership, and you get a membership, and you get a membership...
 

---

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :
 
You got me at membership.
Be well lethal leporid.
 

---

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
I think my favorite H&A day was definitely before I was a host. Ariston (?) and I were given the right and obligation to crusade. I think I was trying to persuade people to worship... I'm not sure what, and his had something to do with upside down and bicycles. (I guess we know who was the better crusader.) This time on the other hand, I was rather tired from having a 1 month old baby so didn't do as much even though as a host I could have gotten away with doing quite a bit. I take this as evidence that indeed Ariston is right that it's all what you put into it.
 

---

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
My favorite was the year Sarky ordered me to call someone to Hell, so I Pmed Nonprofiteer to play and we had a great time slanging each other. Boy, does that date me!
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
That. Is. genius.
 

---

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
Doublethink -- the traffic would usually be at least 5 posts per day and, to my memory of the time, various Wavers mentioned the diffence between Waving and the main boards during H&A

Huia
 

---

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Odd then, because there were definitely language filters last time, I think the word church was one of them - I don't know what anyone else remembers ?

ETA Was it last H&A that the prefiew / edit messages were changed ?

[ 20. September 2014, 22:55: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 

---

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Yes, we changed the "edited by" message to "post buggered about with by," and censored the word "pope."
 

---

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
I think we've used the censor option on every one of the H&As Days. Usually to pick up words that are being well used at the time, the "I'm sick of hearing about ..." reaction. I'd be surprised if 'church' hasn't been censored more than once.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Last year was mayhem. This year was cake by comparison.
And IIRC we changed " pope" to deliberately screw with the discussions about the papal elections.

[ 20. September 2014, 23:00: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
Hmmmmm cake ... I'm hungry now and I've only just had my breakfast.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Have at it, Alan.

Just one last thing to say--above all I think we need to recognize and respect our roots in a satire magazine. The orign of the Ship lies in the idea that laughter brings light, and smartass is strength. That is all.
 

---

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
Wow. That is pink. My daughter would love it!
 

---

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
Having said my bit, I really enjoyed the quotes file being bounced around between boards. I caught up on some wonderful quotes I'd either missed or forgotten about.

Huia
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Every couple of months I do that. We have an impressive legacy.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Last year, it wasn't just that we censored the word pope (along with a few others), it was that the pope announced his resignation within a couple of hours of us censoring the word pope.

And yes, it really did happen in that order.

Now, let me say something more generally...

I've enjoyed some H&A days and not others. That's been both before I was a Host and now that I am one. I enjoyed last year's. I didn't enjoy this one.

The reason for that is largely me. I was already having a tough week. I had noticed some H&A discussion about having the H&A day but hadn't paid much attention, so I wasn't aware that the day was coming up so soon. So it caught me by surprise in the way it catches most Shipmates by surprise.

It was okay for a little while, but then the asterisking of individual letters took off, and I found it more than I could tolerate.

So I left.

No-one seems to have particularly noticed that I wasn't here. I did do a sort of semi-Host: I logged in once, and I read some Hell threads briefly without logging in, but the place survived without me for a bit. I just knew that I wasn't in a very good place to handle it.

But I knew it would blow over in a couple of days. I also knew that I would know when to come back because there'd be an announcement at the top of the forums letting me know when it was over.
 

---

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo
It was okay for a little while, but then the asterisking of individual letters took off, and I found it more than I could tolerate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
Keeping 8th Day as a mischief-free sanctuary was a good idea , so yes I can see that having the 'bugger off' logo encroaching there would have been problematic for some.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

An us v. Them attitude on either side of the debate is unhelpful, imo-- the ship needs h/a's to run smoothly, the ship needs shipmates to run at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
I've enjoyed some H&A days and not others...I enjoyed last year's. I didn't enjoy this one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
... The origin of H/A Day is good to recap-- in celebration of her 10, 000 post, and in frustration at several complaints about hostly tyranny in the face of what is actually a pretty moderate hosting style compared to some boards, Erin decided to show us what the world would be like if things were really arbitrary. So, we celebrate H/A Day to celebrate Erin, first off, and second to celebrate the fact that this is a well-moderated board where people have an unusual latitude to speak their mind. ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JFH:
I have a different question:
Where's the New System/Order®'s score board?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

An us v. Them attitude on either side of the debate is unhelpful, imo-- the ship needs h/a's to run smoothly, the ship needs shipmates to run at all. As Lyda said, I think the hope of the Adminosphere, every year, is that the Shipmates will find ways to join in with the silliness and have fun with us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
I've enjoyed some H&A days and not others...I enjoyed last year's. I didn't enjoy this one.

---

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that.

I appreciate that everyone's sense of humour differs and mine is probably not on the same wavelength of many on here, but I was rather enjoying the Scottish referendum thread in Purgatory but then, as the referendum reached its climax, so much of the thread had been asterisked that it was almost unreadable. I spent a lot less time on here as a result. I'm not sure what the point of a discussion board is if one isn't able to read it.

Anyway, that's my twopenn'orth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

An us v. Them attitude on either side of the debate is unhelpful, imo-- the ship needs h/a's to run smoothly, the ship needs shipmates to run at all. As Lyda said, I think the hope of the Adminosphere, every year, is that the Shipmates will find ways to join in with the silliness and have fun with us.

---

If there's anything that creates an us vs them attitude to reinforce the power and authority of the H/As it would have to be the host & admin day. That's ok the powers that be say it is so, but let's not kid ourselves it's anything but a bit of self-indulgent power games for the H/As at the "expense" (the price of free membership of Sof apparantly) of the shipmates.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

An us v. Them attitude on either side of the debate is unhelpful, imo-- the ship needs h/a's to run smoothly, the ship needs shipmates to run at all. As Lyda said, I think the hope of the Adminosphere, every year, is that the Shipmates will find ways to join in with the silliness and have fun with us.

---

If there's anything that creates an us vs them attitude to reinforce the power and authority of the H/As it would have to be the host & admin day. That's ok the powers that be say it is so, but let's not kid ourselves it's anything but a bit of self-indulgent power games for the H/As at the "expense" (the price of free membership of Sof apparantly) of the shipmates.

---

 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
As a shipmate I really love and look forward to H&A days, so please don't assume or say that all shipmates don't like H&A days, because quite a few of us do.
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
This reaction is the price H&As pay for H&A days. It happens every time, but this time the reaction was stronger due to the nature of some of the H&A "fun" on boards that should have been exempted. Suck it up.

You are going to have to defend yourselves during and after every H&A day.

If you don't want to deal with the fall out from H&A days, you know what the answer is don't you?
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
One point: I come onto the Ship via a saved "favourite" direct to "current active threads". Coming this way I had no advice that the H&A Day had begun, and initially got quite upset by some of the comments I read.

Next time, could things be arranged so that one gets a warning about the Day on any page one opens?
 

---

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starbug:
For people in a certain headspace (in my case. stressed and exhausted), the Ship was a no-go area for several days - at a time when I needed it.. Why is this necessary? I don't know of any other discussion boards that does this.

---

quote:

---

The Ship is not an adequate stand-in for counselling services

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

---

Crap spouted by deano:
Sounds to me like your [sic] saying H&A days allow H&As to ignore the rules of each board and treat them all like Hell; that you don't have to respect the principles of each forum.

---

Yep, you've got it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thyme:
But my impression was that fewer shipmates than previously took part this time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
WTF? It's just another version of April Fools, the lord of misrule, carnival or any other "let's turn the rules upside down and have a great time" holiday. Power games my foot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
One point: I come onto the Ship via a saved "favourite" direct to "current active threads". Coming this way I had no advice that the H&A Day had begun, and initially got quite upset by some of the comments I read.

Next time, could things be arranged so that one gets a warning about the Day on any page one opens?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
This reaction is the price H&As pay for H&A days. It happens every time, but this time the reaction was stronger due to the nature of some of the H&A "fun" on boards that should have been exempted.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think in other contexts, management people get drunk, and slag off their customers; very healthy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starbug:
For people in a certain headspace (in my case. stressed and exhausted), the Ship was a no-go area for several days - at a time when I needed it.. Why is this necessary? I don't know of any other discussion boards that does this.

---

If that is how you express your relationship to the Ship, then I think you are over-dependent on it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
So if not H&A Days, what then? Nothing, ever, would seem to be the answer in some quarters.

There seem to be two world views: one - an ancient one - that every order must embrace an element of anarchy so that balance is maintained. Two - which seems to me the more modern - is that no, consistency must be maintained at all times.

While there are a great many institutions, structures and authorities in the world I hope are being lawful 100% of the time,I'm not minded to include a bunch of volunteer moderators in there. This 'power' that is talked about - what is it? To offer the opportunity to people to be offended - or not; to react - or not; to join in - or not.

I'm not a great one for the boisterous prank myself, but I am entirely in favour of what it represents (it's just that I do rebellion differently).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
the H&A's ought to create a private board where they can have their own little "slag fest" and be as silly and anarchic as they want, away from "customers"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
WTF? It's just another version of April Fools, the lord of misrule, carnival or any other "let's turn the rules upside down and have a great time" holiday. Power games my foot.

---

That really is not the case at all. April Fools is between peers, and Lord of Misrule / Carnival is for all, but the plebs dominate and get to mock the establishment. There is no real world equivalent of a lighthearted party where the rulers get to let their hair down and wreak havoc among the ruled, and for good reason. What H&A day really is, its nature and its purpose, is still exactly the same as when Erin created the first one (see Kelly's description above).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JFH:
I have a different question:
Where's the New System/Order®'s score board?

---

I won.

Not sure what or how, but I did.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
While there are a great many institutions, structures and authorities in the world I hope are being lawful 100% of the time,I'm not minded to include a bunch of volunteer moderators in there. This 'power' that is talked about - what is it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
we get to express our hatred of the H & A, again it seems very healthy to me. It's a kind of hate-sauna, where all the toxins pour out, and leave one refreshed and ready to go.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
It is the power to be judge and jury, king and police, critic and censor, of this community.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JFH:
I'm expecting Eutychus to announce the winner (and the prize) soon!

---

Expect the results next H&A "day", or check the scoring applicable to Mornington Crescent
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
the H&A's ought to create a private board where they can have their own little "slag fest" and be as silly and anarchic as they want, away from "customers"

---

You think there isn't one?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JFH:
I believe the difference in these perceptions affect what stance people take to the dynamics of the H&A days. I'd guess it also affects what you think the Ship could and should be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JFH:
I believe the difference in these perceptions affect what stance people take to the dynamics of the H&A days. I'd guess it also affects what you think the Ship could and should be.

---

In German I would talk of "die normative Kraft des Faktischen" (the normative force of the de facto). Whatever someone's opinion of their role may be, its social status is ultimately determined by what they can do, and actually do. A servant king is a type of king, not a type of servant.

"When great men rule, subjects know little of their existence. Rulers who are less great win the affection and praise of their subjects. A common ruler is feared by his subjects, and an unworthy ruler is despised. ... How carefully a wise ruler chooses his words. He performs deeds, and accumulates merit! Under such a ruler the people think they are ruling themselves." (Dao De Jing 17)

---

But a consumer has and always will have the power of the feet, the capacity to leave and reject the service offered.

Also, if there's one environment that's proved to me that taoist rulers wouldn't work in practice, it's the Ship.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
H&A days must make quite a bit of work for the H&As!

Let them have their fun I say. It's never for long
 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
Though rather more time is spent being facilitator and prompter and party-giver and nanny and mopper-up, is it not?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
I knew Ken. We didn't agree politically, but we did theologically. Can we have a traditional day to celebrate and remember him?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
It is the power to be judge and jury, king and police, critic and censor, of this community.

---

Though rather more time is spent being facilitator and prompter and party-giver and nanny and mopper-up, is it not?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lucia:
I don't see the H&A as rulers but more as people who give their time and effort to ensure that this is a place that basically works well most of the time. I don't see the responsibility to read all the posts and check all the links as a position of privilege! Sounds like a pain in the a*** to me! And I appreciate that they do it and I don't have a problem with them occasionally reminding us what it could be like if they really were arbitrary and uncaring. To me it just highlights that in general they do a good job but it is easy to take that for granted.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
My question then is why, if you have the ability to have an H&A day everyday on you r won private board, do you need to let it spill out onto the public boards? What is the point?

---

Because we can and because it's fun

quote:

---

One of the points is to honour a former Shipmate called Erin.

I never knew her. She was before my time. I don't think I'm alone. Is it right that a few Shipmates who did know her are able to enforce a tradition that other more recent Shipmates might find nonsensical and offensive? Orange Order much?

---

quote:

---

I knew Ken. We didn't agree politically, but we did theologically. Can we have a traditional day to celebrate and remember him? If not, why not?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
H&A days must make quite a bit of work for the H&As!

Let them have their fun I say. It's never for long

---

• It was really fun
• It was a bit meh this year compared to other years
• Too busy to take part this year, but may be next time
• Not in the mood this year so took some Shore Leave. Hopefully will feel in the mood next time
• Not in the mood this year so took some Shore Leave. How dare you disrupt the Ship
• H&A day is the worst thing ever. I hate it and it should never be allowed to happen again.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thyme:
But my impression was that fewer shipmates than previously took part this time.

---

I'll be the first to admit that come H&As Day I'm usually off for a while and let my colleagues have their fun. It's just not me. So, I can't really comment on how many people got involved.

This year there was a thread on the Scottish Referendum that I was particularly interested in. It was noticable how many of us came up with imaginative ways of avoiding the censored words to make our point. Which was kind of fun, both in finding ways to that and appreciating the cleverness of others. I didn't really read many other threads, but it wouldn't surprise me if Shipmates were doing the same there.

Which I think is a way of asking "what do we mean by participation?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:
Marvin runs an agony aunt column in Hell.

---

It may have been hellish in nature, but it was actually in All Saints. It was part of the whole "let's put a Hellhost into an AS Hosting slot" joke that the Admins (Spike, primarily) pulled that year.

The joke was on them - I stayed in AS for quite a while after the H&A Day had finished! Then I had my stint in Heaven, and now I'm an Admin myself .

H&A Days do seem to have quite a habit of discovering new Hosts for us. If I were SPK, I'd be watching with trepidation for the next Hostly resignation announcement...
 

---

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Also, I don't get why the H&A days have to be started without warning.

I get that some people view them as fun. People are different and entitled to that view, but why the need to start them unaaounced?

Would it cause a problem if the day was announced a week in advance. Then we would all have the chance to read about it and decide to keep away or participate.

I suspect there is no reason except "because we can".

More likely is that the H&As also know that if they did announce it they would get a weeks worth of posts complaining about it as well as the complaints during and after, and that quite a few people wouldn't stay around to watch the "festivities".

If your victim isn't around then bullying isn't as much fun.

---

And I refer you to this post. If we announced it a week in advance we'd get the same. Some Shipmates would complain whilst others would use the prior warning to come up with something suitably creative that they can run with.

The Admins started posting warning about H&A at the top of the board and on FB after some Shipmates specifically asked. There may be other things that can be done to make sure everyone is better informed. We'll see.

Tubbs

[ 22. September 2014, 16:24: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
 

---

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Last year Marvin used his mighty Admin powers and changed my title to "Ship's broken porthole". I loved it and I bought it!

Thanks again, Marvin.
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
If your victim isn't around then bullying isn't as much fun.

---

quote:

---

Should women be allowed into the R&A Golf Club?

Of course not, sez me. To paraphrase one of the house elves in Harry Potter, women have no business having fun on the golf course when there is housework to be done and husbands teas to get on the table.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
There may be other things that can be done to make sure everyone is better informed. We'll see.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by agingjb:
I keep out of the way. It's their board, not mine. And I've learnt a lot about the SoF culture.

Two points: a request for prayer is not using the SoF as a stand-in for counselling services, and it's an independent resource which it is a pity to lose for for several days.

And, anyone considering shelling out for a private board should be very clear just how their board might be affected, even if the effect is no more than peripheral on the look and feel.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
While there are a great many institutions, structures and authorities in the world I hope are being lawful 100% of the time,I'm not minded to include a bunch of volunteer moderators in there. This 'power' that is talked about - what is it?

---

It's the power to restrict or allow expression of thought and sentiment. It is the power to judge what is appropriate and what not. It is the power to restrict membership and ban. It is the power to structure and organise these boards as one sees fit. It is the power to be judge and jury, king and police, critic and censor, of this community.

Of course, in a sense what happens on a bulletin board is intrinsically insubstantial. But people find meaning and value in anything they do repeatedly and enthusiastically, and create belonging out of thin air.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
WTF? It's just another version of April Fools, the lord of misrule, carnival or any other "let's turn the rules upside down and have a great time" holiday. Power games my foot.

---

That really is not the case at all. April Fools is between peers, and Lord of Misrule / Carnival is for all, but the plebs dominate and get to mock the establishment. There is no real world equivalent of a lighthearted party where the rulers get to let their hair down and wreak havoc among the ruled, and for good reason. What H&A day really is, its nature and its purpose, is still exactly the same as when Erin created the first one (see Kelly's description above).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Also, I don't get why the H&A days have to be started without warning.

I get that some people view them as fun. People are different and entitled to that view, but why the need to start them unaaounced?

Would it cause a problem if the day was announced a week in advance. Then we would all have the chance to read about it and decide to keep away or participate.

I suspect there is no reason except "because we can".

More likely is that the H&As also know that if they did announce it they would get a weeks worth of posts complaining about it as well as the complaints during and after, and that quite a few people wouldn't stay around to watch the "festivities".

If your victim isn't around then bullying isn't as much fun.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patdys:
As part of the in crowd, I received a commemorative bottle of gin with the date and time of commencement a week before.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What the hell is this "establishment" and "rulers" stuff? What you have here is a bunch of fucking volunteers who don't get paid a cent and have to put up with everybody's crap. And they're pulled from the general population of SoF posters (to which they return when they retire). And in fact, they continue to post as ordinary shipmates whenever they are not carrying out their extra duties at the mo.

There is no THEY in this. That isn't an establishment. That isn't "rulers." That's some of US attempting to have a good time with the rest of US, in spite of the inevitable misunderstandings/blowback from others of US.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What the hell is this "establishment" and "rulers" stuff? What you have here is a bunch of fucking volunteers who don't get paid a cent and have to put up with everybody's crap. And they're pulled from the general population of SoF posters (to which they return when they retire). And in fact, they continue to post as ordinary shipmates whenever they are not carrying out their extra duties at the mo. ... Damn, it's like trying to make coffee for a churchful of people who all take it a different way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why not make constructive suggestions (I saw a few on this thread) instead of just bitching?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
One of the points is to honour a former Shipmate called Erin.

I never knew her. She was before my time. I don't think I'm alone. Is it right that a few Shipmates who did know her are able to enforce a tradition that other more recent Shipmates might find nonsensical and offensive?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
Damn those originally selfless volunteers, getting drunk on the terrible power of internet domination and grinding us minions beneath their flaming stiletto heels.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What the hell is this "establishment" and "rulers" stuff? What you have here is a bunch of fucking volunteers who don't get paid a cent and have to put up with everybody's crap. And they're pulled from the general population of SoF posters (to which they return when they retire). And in fact, they continue to post as ordinary shipmates whenever they are not carrying out their extra duties at the mo. ... Damn, it's like trying to make coffee for a churchful of people who all take it a different way.

---

We are all equal here. It's just that some are more equal than others... If this is indeed a community, then given the absence of its owner-king it is de facto governed by a two-tier oligarchy.

If you want to legitimise this in terms of "people power", then you could try introducing democratic structures. If you think it works just fine, then I guess leave it as it is. But stop pretending that H&A governance is like brewing coffee. It just isn't. The current SoF setup has been called a "benign dictatorship", including by the H&As themselves.

---

No, it's not an 'oligarchy' because it's not the case that power resides permanently with the same people. In some respects your analysis is correct, but in that crucial respect it is wrong.

Oligarchies involve ties such as wealth or family that ensure the 'in crowd' always remains the same. This is not the case with hosting. I had no ties with any of the existing Hosts when I was invited to become one. People are asked to be Hosts based on their suitability for the job.

I'm not sure what democratic processes you have in mind. Do you want to vote for who the Admins or Hosts are? Have election campaigns? I can predict that everyone would be heartily sick of such a process before long, given how FREQUENT the turnover of Hosts actually is (turnover not being a word terribly consistent with oligarchy), with several changes per year, and that it wouldn't make much difference overall.

If you want direct participation in decision-making, then I'll just point out that that is not 'democracy'.

[ 22. September 2014, 22:22: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Votes in the Styx for whether Shipmates should be planked. No wait, no planking without prior recourse. Therefore, trials with witnesses and consulting council so that the accused can properly defend themselves before being planked. Debates about whether the proper criterion is whether the accused could have, should have, or did know that they were posting like a jerk.

A proper constitutional committee to review whether we want to be governed by the 10 Commandments or not, to be reconvened every 6 months to take account of the views of newcomers who are otherwise forced into servitude to the despotism of those who have come before them.

Proper anonymous voting for proposals for new boards. Votes on the proper procedures for anonymous voting. Who gets to vote? Is campaigning allowed on the day of the vote? Committees formed to settle these questions. Threads in the Styx complaining that the committees are formed of an in-crowd.

Votes for the appointment of Hosts and Admins (or is this like voting for judges: seems like a good application of democracy, but turns out to be a really crap idea?). Recall elections whenever a Host or Admin does something unpopular.

Investigation of whether the idea of having Hosts and Admins at all is too in-crowd and anti-democratic. Constitutional committee to investigate running the Ship as a collective.

H&A Days to be put to a vote prior. Endless threads in the Styx about how "I didn't know an H&A Day vote was coming up." Timing of votes for H&A Days to be put to a vote prior. Endless threads in the Styx about how "I didn't know an H&A Day Vote Timing vote was coming up." Timing of Votes for Timing of Votes for H&A Days to be put to a vote prior. Threads in the Styx...

Ship ceases to need to appeal for financial support, as Simon discovers that the threads in the Styx are running a perpetual motion machine. Day of celebration declared. Threads in the Styx about how the day of celebration interfered with the normal running of the boards. Perpetual motion machine runs amok.

Careful policing of anarchy so it doesn't offend anyone. Creation of Despotic Anarchy board so that those who like Despotic Anarchy can do it whenever they like without bothering anyone else. Accusations that the Despotic Anarchy board is the haven of the most in of in-crowds, and people who might like a spot of anarchy feel intimidated from joining in.

There's so much that could be improved about the Ship.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I'll say this for this thread: it's just like the olden cranky days on board, and gives me a warm & fuzzy feeling. Some things never change.

[ 22. September 2014, 23:16: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Autenrieth Road,

That was beautiful.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
That... That... Damn, two days of bickering was well worth that post. Thank you, AR.
 

---

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
comet, thanks for your extensive comments. The effort is much appreciated, but you are barking up the wrong tree. If I wanted to critique the Ship's governance, then I would do that. My point here is that H&A day highlights, indeed caricatures, what one could critique about the Ship's governance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
It is also needlessly disruptive to the regulars, and generally unattractive to visitors (the rare Ariston excepted).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

The reaction to H&A days seems to be getting more aggressive each time you hold one. Tough. It's the price you pay.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Why not restrict it to the H&As private board if it's such a tiny little thing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
No, it's not an 'oligarchy' because it's not the case that power resides permanently with the same people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Oligarchies involve ties such as wealth or family that ensure the 'in crowd' always remains the same. This is not the case with hosting. I had no ties with any of the existing Hosts when I was invited to become one. People are asked to be Hosts based on their suitability for the job.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
okay, darling, so if I'm reading you right, what you're saying on this thread is, in effect, "I'm not criticizing ship governance, but if I was..."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
which is different how, exactly?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
Frankly, I don't give a sheep's fart if you criticize the ship's governance, but then engage in the debate. don't shrivel up and tell me you weren't criticising.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
you want a more democratic process.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
2. unattractive to visitors. fucking PROVE IT. 'cause I can come up with 18,000 reasons why you're wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
IngoB, I actually have a giant throbbing soft spot for you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
but then listen to what has been said.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
accept it as a necessary evil for having the kind of board you want the rest of the year.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
No, it's not an 'oligarchy' because it's not the case that power resides permanently with the same people.

---

That's not part of the definition of oligarchy, or indeed of any human form of government. For rather obvious reasons.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
I want no more H&A day. I also would appreciate more democracy, sure, and I find the attempts to make it appear impossible hilarious. I should really keep these posts for the next time somebody talks about Church governance...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Nor can I think of a single example of a message board that I've seen which selects its administrators and moderators in any other fashion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Louis XVI, July 1789, letter to the National Constituent Assembly?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patdys:
Is it time for the annual lent thread yet?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Nor can I think of a single example of a message board that I've seen which selects its administrators and moderators in any other fashion.

---

Louis XVI, July 1789, letter to the National Constituent Assembly?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
The nearest thing I can think of to your proposals is Wikipedia, and I restate my allegation of drowning in bureaucracy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
I think complacency with its oligarchic status quo "because it works" is odd, even a bit sad. I do think it would be fun if an ultramontanist traditionalist fought a people's revolution here, just for the sweet fucking irony of it all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
I looked at other websites (I know, I was surprised too. Some of them were actually quite good)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
That you think the Ship is in any sensible way comparable to the entire nation of France shows me you've abandoned your analytical skills for the sake of an ideological complaint that somehow you're not as important on the Ship as you'd like to be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
This place can't be turned into a formal co-operative without transfer of formal ownership away from Simon.

---

quote:

---

IngoB: Let us say Natthew is not a host. I as a Shipmate think he would be really great as a host. What can I do about making him a host? Petty much fuck all.

---

I'm sure if you thought Natthew would make a great host, you could send a PM to the Admins alerting them to this, and this would be taken into account?

(PS You could do the same thing if you really hated Natthew )
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
This place can't be turned into a formal co-operative without transfer of formal ownership away from Simon.

---

Well, clearly after H&A day we now have the "making shit up about what IngoB wants" day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Not that I actually have thought about how to do that, since I wasn't actually intending to do anything about the governance of this place at the moment. Really. Honestly. Swear to God. Would somebody listen, please?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
This place can't be turned into a formal co-operative without transfer of formal ownership away from Simon.

---

Well, clearly after H&A day we now have the "making shit up about what IngoB wants" day.

Let us say Natthew is not a host. I as a Shipmate think he would be really great as a host. What can I do about making him a host? Petty much fuck all. Let us say Natthew is a host. I as a Shipmate think he is doing a really bad job. What can I do about stopping him? Slightly more than fuck all, namely I can whinge here.

Is it possible to increase my abilities without having to wrest control of this website from Simon's hands? I sure as heck think so. Not that I actually have thought about how to do that, since I wasn't actually intending to do anything about the governance of this place at the moment. Really. Honestly. Swear to God. Would somebody listen, please?

But I sure expect that one could come up with some decent ideas if one wanted to. And if that very thought is so threatening as to activate the full blown "the Ship is the best of all possible maritime vessels" defence, then that to me is worrisome.

---

• Most Shipmates like or don’t mind H&A day. Some of them even enjoy it! A lot. Maybe it could be shaken up a bit. On it. (I’m ignoring Deano as his metamorphosis into the defender of the vulnerable doesn’t quite ring true when compared to his posts elsewhere).
• Find ways doing things like of H&A in a way that have less impact to the parts of the Ship that exist below the plimsoll line . On it.
• Improve the notification process for H&A. Particularly for the parts of the Ship that exist below the plimsoll line. On it.
• Never do H&A day again. No chance.

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
That you think the Ship is in any sensible way comparable to the entire nation of France shows me you've abandoned your analytical skills for the sake of an ideological complaint that somehow you're not as important on the Ship as you'd like to be.

---

Actually, I was mockingly comparing you to Louis XVI. And not because you are a king, but because you appear to think that "it has always been thus" is a valid argument concerning governance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Is it possible to increase my abilities without having to wrest control of this website from Simon's hands? I sure as heck think so.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
I want no more H&A day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
That you think the Ship is in any sensible way comparable to the entire nation of France shows me you've abandoned your analytical skills for the sake of an ideological complaint that somehow you're not as important on the Ship as you'd like to be.

---

Actually, I was mockingly comparing you to Louis XVI. And not because you are a king, but because you appear to think that "it has always been thus" is a valid argument concerning governance.

---

Kindly don't mockingly compare me to anyone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
You know, your own ad hominem was right there. See above, first in the series of quotes. I think it is considerably more insulting than my oblique (and hopefully mildly amusing) reference to a French king being surprised by revolution.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
H & A Admin Days seem to be the height of self-indulgence.

---

quote:

---

IngoB: There's nothing that stops one from adjusting election laws to get rid of most problem cases, e.g., "at least one year on the Ship, at least 500 posts, at least one post within the last year."

---

That worked so well on Wikipedia. No political bickering there
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Marvin, I appreciate your honest words that cut through some of the bullshit.

---

quote:

---

A few comments: There's nothing that stops one from adjusting election laws to get rid of most problem cases, e.g., "at least one year on the Ship, at least 500 posts, at least one post within the last year." If you don't trust the people left after such cuts to avoid obvious trolls in majority votes, then you are more cynical than I am.

---

quote:

---

I think an election day would be fun, as it happens:

---

quote:

---

I sure would be interested in hearing a fresh sales pitch or ten about making SoF a better place.

---

quote:

---

I would imagine more something like a pool of candidates, which gets filled through a steady "democratic" process and depleted by H&As restocking their ranks when needed. Say a thread where people can suggest names and if someone reaches a certain threshold number of "seconded" votes their name goes into the candidate pool for a time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
There's an argument that they are self-indulgent, yes. There's also an argument that the people who are indulging spend about 363 days of the year doing a lot of pretty selfless work for other people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
I would imagine more something like a pool of candidates, which gets filled through a steady "democratic" process and depleted by H&As restocking their ranks when needed. Say a thread where people can suggest names and if someone reaches a certain threshold number of "seconded" votes their name goes into the candidate pool for a time.

---

let's think this through a bit. Have you ever run for office? I have. well, sort of; on the small level. boards of directors and all of that. you need thick skin. even well meant, having people talk publicly and cast votes about you feels personal. if you win, then great: "you like me, you really like me!" but if you don't win? it kind of sucks.

one of the things brought up on this very thread, in the OP even, has been that people don't want to feel insulted or hurt.

and when you have an election, there's bound to be people who don't win. And they may not have anything wrong with them. Let's face it, as has come up on this ship many times - the "in-crowd" dynamic around here is usually based on writing skills. I know some really brilliant writers who's politics are complete suckass bullshit. (hell, I'm related to at least one) but those great writers can win the day because they are the text-based forum equivalent of the pretty girls at school.

then you have the really brilliant mind with lots to offer who maybe can't express themselves in anything less than a Tolstoi-sized post; perhaps they express themselves in a way that often makes people think they are judging, criticizing, or condemning. This person may be exactly the right person for the job, but they manage to piss off a dozen people before breakfast every day. That person will not be elected.

and really? that shit hurts. It makes you want to stay away. because even if it ain't personal, it feels personal.

And here on the ship we decided eons ago that we hate popularity contests. I'm all for this. We've skirted this in the past with various events and it made me decidedly twitchy.

Thing is, I may be a raging bitch but most of you who know me know it comes from a place of love. (well, and annoyance) I don't actually want to see anyone get kicked in the teeth or feel unwelcome.

not here. this place is too special.

In the real world, I feel democracy is a bit of a necessary evil. it's slow, cumbersome, messy, painful, and it fucking works. someone wants to put themselves out there for a beating, have at it. But it will never be me, not on a big level. and if choosing hosts were based on a public discussion of various people's merits and a public vote, I never would have been a host.

you see, deep down, I'm a big fat squawking chicken.

on another note, one thing the H&As have going for them is they have to read fucking everything. the rest of us, thanksbetogawd, do not. because of that, they can get a feel for different posters in a way that we won't, unless we somehow enforce that everybody reads everything, including the boring bits. there are little jewels of posters that are not as loud and brash and noisy as you or I, but have something really valuable to contribute. us loud fuckers drown them out. But the powers that be have to read it all; they notice.

they also have agreed to uphold an agenda not completely their own. So they have to take into account what is the best for the ship. us peons can vote simply based on our mood and our favorites and not what will keep this joint afloat.

Now, all of that being said, I can see a test run, on perhaps 8th Day, of popularly elected hosts, at some point. I will not be taking part, but if it is a contained element and won't actually effect the overall spirit of the ship; maybe there's a place for that.

I want to address the H&A Day kerfluffle, too, but I'll have to wait until my work break. there's only so much slacking I can get away with around here.

PS - Dear Ingo. You are a dirty, dirty boy. Keep it up.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:


Based on the feedback so far, it seems that:

• Most Shipmates like or don’t mind H&A day. Some of them even enjoy it! A lot. Maybe it could be shaken up a bit. On it. (I’m ignoring Deano as his metamorphosis into the defender of the vulnerable doesn’t quite ring true when compared to his posts elsewhere).
• Find ways doing things like of H&A in a way that have less impact to the parts of the Ship that exist below the plimsoll line . On it.
• Improve the notification process for H&A. Particularly for the parts of the Ship that exist below the plimsoll line. On it.
• Never do H&A day again. No chance.

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
In order to abandon H&A day, I believe it would not only be necessary for H&A to believe it should be done, but for Simon to believe so as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But that's the thing. It's not about making SoF better in one or more of the ten different ways those people would put forward, it's about making it better in the way Simon has put forward. His site, his vision.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
That person will not be elected. and really? that shit hurts. It makes you want to stay away. because even if it ain't personal, it feels personal. ... you see, deep down, I'm a big fat squawking chicken.

---

quote:

---

IngoB: I have been around for a decade, so I have some experiential evidence that Simon actually exists. Including that time when he nearly threw me overboard. But he sure has been pretty ninja grey eminence of the Deist vibe about sharing his vision for this place.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
OK people, I'm slow, but not that slow. This is a Monty Python sketch, right? Right?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Think of H&A Day as a sacrament instituted the first time by Simon through the alligator in whom he had invested his power, which has been handed over through her ordained sucessors, and through which he still works our salvation. We don't need to understand all of it, parts of it may even seem to be undemocratic or —gasp— immoral to us, but in the end it will all work out to our best.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Think of H&A Day as a sacrament instituted the first time by Simon through the alligator in whom he had invested his power, which has been handed over through her ordained sucessors, and through which he still works our salvation. We don't need to understand all of it, parts of it may even seem to be undemocratic or —gasp— immoral to us, but in the end it will all work out to our best.

---

If it turns out that Simon's vision for SoF has been to mould hanky-wringing liberals into a spitting image of the RCC, with conservatives waging guerrilla warfare of enlightened laissez-faire against it, then I for one don't care whether this is a prank or a work of art, evil or good. It would be so unspeakably epic, a breathtaking tour de force in social manipulation, irony so deep that it would form a wormhole right into the Holy of Holies, with God saying "peek-a-boo".

Or it's just a bloody bulletin board and people are just being people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Six pages of this stuff? Incredible. I'd been away and was briefly baffled and irritated while trying to figure out what was going on. Then I saw "Bugger off, Stercus Tauri" at the top of the page and laughed till I farted. Can it be that certain people are taking all this too seriously?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
H & A Admin Days seem to be the height of self-indulgence.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
I think an election day would be fun, as it happens:

---

Much like a H&A Day, some would love it and some would hate it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
Based on the feedback so far, it seems that:

• Most Shipmates like or don’t mind H&A day. Some of them even enjoy it! A lot. Maybe it could be shaken up a bit. On it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
(I’m ignoring Deano as his metamorphosis into the defender of the vulnerable doesn’t quite ring true when compared to his posts elsewhere).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Six pages of this stuff? Incredible. I'd been away and was briefly baffled and irritated while trying to figure out what was going on. Then I saw "Bugger off, Stercus Tauri" at the top of the page and laughed till I farted. Can it be that certain people are taking all this too seriously?

---

Put this way, this thread will not last longer than the H&A that caused it. Unless anyone has anything on topic to add, this thread will shortly be closed.

Tubbs

---

quote:

---

IngoB: If it turns out that Simon's vision for SoF has been to mould hanky-wringing liberals into a spitting image of the RCC, with conservatives waging guerrilla warfare of enlightened laissez-faire against it, then I for one don't care whether this is a prank or a work of art, evil or good.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
Based on the feedback so far, it seems that:

• Most Shipmates like or don’t mind H&A day. Some of them even enjoy it! A lot. Maybe it could be shaken up a bit. On it.

---

How do you know? Why not have a poll on it? Then you will have proper numbers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patdys:
As part of the in crowd, I received a commemorative bottle of gin with the date and time of commencement a week before.

---

Doesn't longevity and number of posts count for anything? Where's my Bombay Sapphire?



 

---

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Also, I don't get why the H&A days have to be started without warning.

---

"But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36, NRSV)

Alongside other interpretations of H&A days - a demonstration of true arbitrariness, an irruption of pagan misrule - I offer mine: an example of the disruptive power of the kingdom of God. Parables about it point to the suddenly changed nature of the established order. H&A days are a foretaste of the WTF to come.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patdys:
As part of the in crowd, I received a commemorative bottle of gin with the date and time of commencement a week before.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
This is a Monty Python sketch, right? Right?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
It seems the day is fun but the debate afterwards, not so much.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
The Admins know what people think because the Admins have been required to read every single post on this thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patdys:
and to annoy the shit out of RooK.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr Curly:
The Writers Block thread still AWOL in Heaven

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
Also: mind-reading powers. It's a setting in the Control Panel, probably a leftover from Erin's time in the CIA.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr Curly:
The Writers Block thread still AWOL in Heaven

mr curly

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr Curly:
The Writers Block thread still AWOL in Heaven

mr curly

---

That thread has been shuffling along for a year and a half now. It's worn a groove in the carpet. NaNoWriMo dawns. Perhaps, as Rook suggests, a new - and perhaps more topic/discussion-oriented thread?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patdys:
and to annoy the shit out of RooK.

---

A nobler sentiment has never been uttered. Pardon me while I adjust your profile to reward you.

---

First, that is definitely worth an organ fund contribution. (done).

May I please have my avatar back when you have finished wiping with it. I don't recognise myself.

I would be very happy to keep your addition to my title but am happy to lose the iron wannabe at some point in the future if you like.
 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
It'd be nice if there was a distinction between the hilarity of H&A day and earnest hostly wisdom for us shipmates, just so we don't waste hostly time here discussing it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It takes a brave person to risk the wrath of the Hellhosts by opening a TICTH thread. Or, one in tune with the mood of the board to realise it's the right time. Still probably brave to open it though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:

I find that on SoF it is incredibly difficult to feel a part of the community. I don't feel that I am more than a bystander on the fringe after nine years and frequently go back into lurker mode for weeks or months when it all gets a bit too cliquey.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
.... just because there is a perceived lack of response to someone doesn't mean that someone isn't making an impact.

---

Absolutely!

I know someone who has made about 10 posts in all their time on the Ship, but they read it all as evidenced by the things they chat about on the phone!

Stalker? Not at all, a friend - just a quite private person who enjoys the Ship but doesn't want to share their thoughts with the world.

I doubt if they feel 'part of the community' but they clearly don't need to.


 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
I would second lilBuddha's observation. I would always stop to read one of your posts whether it was on a Board I was hosting or not.

As for in and outness - hard to say: there are whole Boards and topics on the Ship were I feel outer than a distant asteroid in orbit round Pluto.
 

---

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
As for in and outness - hard to say: there are whole Boards and topics on the Ship were I feel outer than a distant asteroid in orbit round Pluto.

---

Absolutely. It's probably the same for a large number of people here, for different reasons. I suspect, for example, that posters such as orfeo and mousethief have regular "WTF?" moments at something like the decluttering thread, if they go near it at all. *Pauses to cherish mental image of both those posters armed with rubber gloves and feather dusters*

I post in very few areas because in most of them I feel like a squeaking mouse in the battery of the big guns. But I read loads, have learnt loads, am always learning more and appreciate the very high quality of discussion there is here, from the vast majority of posters. Bob, I echo what others have said about you - I think of you as a regular and would always stop to read when I see your name. It's very hard to tell how other people perceive you, particularly from behind a computer screen.

I see H&A days as a necessary part of things here. I don't enjoy them and I don't want to play, but other people do so I just keep a low profile until things settle back down. Who knows, if I were a host or admin and had to read every darned thread, whether I felt like it or not, I might feel the urgent need to scream and throw my food around from time to time.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nenya:

I post in very few areas because in most of them I feel like a squeaking mouse in the battery of the big guns.

---

I know I'm a squeaking mouse among the big guns - but I squeak nonetheless! Sometimes this wee mouse give the elephants pause for thought - it's rare, but never mind.


 

---

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
there are whole Boards and topics on the Ship were I feel outer than a distant asteroid in orbit round Pluto.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

So, in summary, for technical accuracy you should have said "I feel outer than a distant Kuiper Belt object beyond the orbit of Pluto".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
It's always difficult to come into an established community where people know each other and not feel that you're an outsider - especially when family bonds are involved - but that's just life.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Although for the most part I agree with what you say, AR,

---

Huh? I didn't make any statement that could be agreed with or not. I observed that my own experience is different from Bob Two Owl's, despite having almost equal and lengthy time on the Ship, and wondered what contributes to us having such different experiences.

In particular, I deliberately did not say that there is or isn't an in-crowd.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
? Also, because I made it clear that I knew you didn't say that. What you said fit my perception of my own experience on the Ship-- I am also sorry if the word " agree" wasn't suitable.

Not sorry for the rest, as it was an observation if my own which I made clear wasn't aimed at anyone.
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Ok, thanks, now I understand what you meant by "agree". Thanks for explaining.

I wasn't asking you to feel sorry for or retract any of what you posted after the opening sentence; I just didn't understand the opening sentence.
 

---

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
"Fitting in" is a nebulous quality.

I've been here a long damn time, and there are vast sections of The Ship where I fit in about as well as a mustelid in a cat show. Despite this, I like the sense of being able to discuss ideas with an array philosophical and sociological participants. At least theoretically - my discussion time has been consumed by raising kids lately, so I only really have time to engage in meta-topics (pursuant to administration).

Regardless, my point is that many of us are unlikely fits in this collective puzzle, but the trick is focus on the ways in which we engage and not get too fussed about the ways in which we don't.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
True.

i went through a phase where it felt like the only time anyone directed a comment at me was when they had a chance to correct me, laugh at me, or scold me. The truth was that I was just deciding that the few people who pretty consistantly did this had opinions that were more valuable than the many who didn't. That would be my own fault, would't it?
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
That is hilariously wrong Kelly, and you should know better.

Yeah, I know, how am I just so funny?
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
yeah, yeah, yeah...
 

---

Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :
 
Even though I once met my best friend on the Ship I've long since decided that looking for "community" (whatever the hell that is) on a bulletin board is a recipe for disappointment.

But then that may just be me. I've been trying for a year to break into friendship circles in my local church with little success.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
The problem on the ship is nobody thinks they are in the "in" group. So everyone is trying to join a fictional group.

Most people probably have some views on who is "in", but if you asked the "in"-individuals if they were "in" they would deny it completely and suggest other names.

Jengie

[ 27. September 2014, 18:59: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 


You might be onto something, Jengie. As Anne Lamott says, we are a weird species.

I smile because I was remembering when someone told me that, as an Admin, I automatically qualified as In. They said this about 2 hours after I had suggested something to the H/A's and been completely shot down in glorious technicolor flames. I was still grouchy about it, and felt like saying " yeah, tell them I'm in."
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
DO not feel sadness, Kelly; I do not even rate the in-crowd amongst my own internal voices, so...
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
I think more useful than using a term like in-crowd which no-one thinks they're in, is to say what are behaviors that someone who sees in what they're calling an in-crowd, see in that group? And what is wanted to be different? That those behaviors don't happen? That the person who sees this as an in-crowd gets included? Something else?

For example, a behavior might be "some people's posts get answered a lot, but my posts don't, and I want them to be." Or a behavior might be "there's a group of people who make jokes and laugh at (with) each other's jokes, but the jokes don't make sense and aren't funny to me, and I wish they'd stop." Or a myriad other possibilities.

Even though no-one in the perceived in-crowd think they're in an in-crowd, or feel like they're "in", that doesn't make it a fictitious group. There still might be a group of people with common ties that some people feel hard to make sense of or to participate in in the way they'd like.
 

---

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
Briefly, back when I was hosting All Saints I felt part of a community. To assist that feeling, over the years I met quite a few people. Some of those people are now my friends and I interact separately with them on other social media.

But the ship as a community? Nah, I gave up on that idea a long time ago. Some threads are informative, fun, or useful (or all three). I participate in those but ignore all the rest. Doing this has freed up hours of my time to do other things, such as reading. Sleeping, too.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Well in that case everyone has a different set of behavioural markers and the subset of members of Ship of Fools who satisfy everyone's behavioural markers is zero.

Remember Ken won shipmate of the year award while banned.

Jengie

[ 27. September 2014, 20:33: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

---

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
But if you're looking at behaviours, you're only looking at one part of the story - the other part is people's perceptions.

We've recently had quite a to-do in our meeting, which included accusations of an "in-crowd". Now, it's true that someone, who has since left, was running a private discussion group on the side, which was unhelpful, and this same person tended to use language such as "inner circle". But many people in this group weren't aware that there was an issue, and didn't see themselves as different from others. Of those long-standing members who weren't in the group, some felt excluded and others (like me) didn't give a toss (except when they realised others were hurt by it).

We had a series of special meetings to discuss it all. At the first one, some people said they felt excluded, but not all of them were actually aware of the private discussion group. People who'd chosen never to attend a single business meeting (held monthly and listed in the newsletter) said things like: "I don't know how decisions are made", or "I don't know how people get chosen for jobs". One person said: "I don't even know who my Overseer* is". Her Overseer went up to her afterwards and reminded her that she'd phoned her only the week before to tell her about the meeting. Well, at least she got an apology.

People who, over the years, have declined any attempt to give them a 'job' in the meeting announced that they didn't really feel part of things and disliked the fact that a small group of people (i.e. the ones who say "yes" when asked to do a job) "seem to run everything." Go figure.


*Not as scary as it sounds. No whips are involved.
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
[cross-posted]

Everyone may well have a different set of markers, but for each individual person who posts feeling out of the in-crowd, talking about what behaviors are meant and what the person would like to be different could lead to a more fruitful discussion than the usual "there's an in-crowd" "no there isn't" way these things go.

[ 27. September 2014, 20:51: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
QLib, what you describe sounds like what I mean by fruitful discussion. Your meeting got beyond the label "in-crowd" to find out that people felt excluded and didn't like it, and what they felt excluded about. It may be that all the same people will continue ignoring business meetings, forgetting that they've been personally asked to a business meeting, and saying "no" to any opportunities to get involved, and not only that but will keep on feeling excluded, but at least the rest of you now can see what the complaint is, what contributes to the complaint, and in an informed way decide if there's anything you want to change or not.

What you say about perceptions relates back to what I originally said to Bob Two-Owls: I wonder why he and I, both nine year veterans of the Ship, have such different experiences and/or perceptions and/or reactions to the Ship? But without knowing much about what he means by "in-group", I have little traction for coming to any answer to that question.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nenya:
I suspect, for example, that posters such as orfeo and mousethief have regular "WTF?" moments at something like the decluttering thread, if they go near it at all. *Pauses to cherish mental image of both those posters armed with rubber gloves and feather dusters*

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
QLib, what you describe sounds like what I mean by fruitful discussion. Your meeting got beyond the label "in-crowd" to find out that people felt excluded and didn't like it, and what they felt excluded about. It may be that all the same people will continue ignoring business meetings, forgetting that they've been personally asked to a business meeting, and saying "no" to any opportunities to get involved, and not only that but will keep on feeling excluded, but at least the rest of you now can see what the complaint is, what contributes to the complaint, and in an informed way decide if there's anything you want to change or not.

What you say about perceptions relates back to what I originally said to Bob Two-Owls: I wonder why he and I, both nine year veterans of the Ship, have such different experiences and/or perceptions and/or reactions to the Ship? But without knowing much about what he means by "in-group", I have little traction for coming to any answer to that question.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
QLib, what you describe sounds like what I mean by fruitful discussion. Your meeting got beyond the label "in-crowd" to find out that people felt excluded and didn't like it, and what they felt excluded about. It may be that all the same people will continue ignoring business meetings, forgetting that they've been personally asked to a business meeting, and saying "no" to any opportunities to get involved, and not only that but will keep on feeling excluded, but at least the rest of you now can see what the complaint is, what contributes to the complaint, and in an informed way decide if there's anything you want to change or not.

What you say about perceptions relates back to what I originally said to Bob Two-Owls: I wonder why he and I, both nine year veterans of the Ship, have such different experiences and/or perceptions and/or reactions to the Ship? But without knowing much about what he means by "in-group", I have little traction for coming to any answer to that question.

---

I used to work with a man who had been a flyer in the Canadian Navy, who claimed that a good way get noticed, and thus become one of the "in crowd", was to get court martialled - once. More than that was unhealthy. Perhaps, if you want to join the "in crowd" on the Ship, a Hell call will do the trick. For myself, being an occasional visitor and spectator works well enough.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
QLib, what you describe sounds like what I mean by fruitful discussion. Your meeting got beyond the label "in-crowd" to find out that people felt excluded and didn't like it, and what they felt excluded about. It may be that all the same people will continue ignoring business meetings, forgetting that they've been personally asked to a business meeting, and saying "no" to any opportunities to get involved, and not only that but will keep on feeling excluded, but at least the rest of you now can see what the complaint is, what contributes to the complaint, and in an informed way decide if there's anything you want to change or not.

What you say about perceptions relates back to what I originally said to Bob Two-Owls: I wonder why he and I, both nine year veterans of the Ship, have such different experiences and/or perceptions and/or reactions to the Ship? But without knowing much about what he means by "in-group", I have little traction for coming to any answer to that question.

---

I used to work with a man who had been a flyer in the Canadian Navy, who claimed that a good way get noticed, and thus become one of the "in crowd", was to get court martialled - once. More than that was unhealthy. Perhaps, if you want to join the "in crowd" on the Ship, a Hell call will do the trick. For myself, being an occasional visitor and spectator works well enough.

---

Oh deary me no. Being part of the in-crowd is like being a lady or intelligent, if one has to tell people about it then one isn't!!!!! Of course if you try too hard you're obviously just not "in-crowd material" either. A little obsequiousness to the H&As is welcome of course but don't take it too far.

Best to affect a certain je nais se quoi, an incrowd, whatever could you be on about dear chap? Oh you feel excluded, good heavens! I wonder what's wrong with you 'cos I don't .

Oh and Deano, surely you're so out you must be almost in, keep up the unrest !

Evangeline, who wouldn't want to be a part of any incrowd that would accept her
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
You know what makes me feel out of the in crowd? That damn thread in All Saints called, "Your inbox is full." What the heck? Some people have sixty PM's and those are just the ones they saved?! In all these years, I think I've had ten PM's and half of them were Hell calls.

I feel like I'm well part of the community, though. The cranky, bitter old cat lady, but part of the community nevertheless. Everyone is! Even if you're a shy one who just pops out from time to time in Heaven to contribute to a 'what's your favorite color,' thread, we see you and we might be watching for more.
 

---

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
Well said, Twilight. it takes all of us to be community. If we were to be as selective as some people think we are, we become a clique. I don't want clique, I want community. including the crazies and a shy ones and the crackpots and the blowhards and the screamers (*takes a bow*) and the cat ladies.
 

---

Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
...I want community. including the crazies and a shy ones and the crackpots and the blowhards and the screamers (*takes a bow*) and the cat ladies.

---

It's late, 01:18, and I got in from w*rk about 20 minutes ago. I was skimming this thread dopily as I ate my dinner and read "blowjobs" instead of "blowhards". My picture of Comet's vision of community was momentarily, er, surprising.
 

---

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
You know what makes me feel out of the in crowd? That damn thread in All Saints called, "Your inbox is full." What the heck? Some people have sixty PM's and those are just the ones they saved?! In all these years, I think I've had ten PM's and half of them were Hell calls.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
My picture of Comet's vision of community was momentarily, er, surprising.

---

Well, she did say she is a screamer, so perhaps not far off anyway.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
You know what makes me feel out of the in crowd? That damn thread in All Saints called, "Your inbox is full." What the heck? Some people have sixty PM's and those are just the ones they saved?! In all these years, I think I've had ten PM's and half of them were Hell calls.

---

No Hell calls in the few I've received, but two PM senders have been banned, and one has died.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
My picture of Comet's vision of community was momentarily, er, surprising.

---

Well, she did say she is a screamer, so perhaps not far off anyway.

---

dirty, dirty people. naughty. stand in the corner and think about what you've done.

would you prefer, "thrower of temper tantrums"?
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
This thread has now lasted 2 weeks.

It's instructive to notice how much of that time actually involved H&A Day being in force.

[ 01. October 2014, 23:12: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Yeah.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yeah.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
My picture of Comet's vision of community was momentarily, er, surprising.

---

Well, she did say she is a screamer, so perhaps not far off anyway.

---

dirty, dirty people. naughty. stand in the corner and think about what you've done.

---

<shuffles shamefacedly to corner>
(but might have chuckled once more to myself )
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
I did know we have a decluttering thread, but I've never read it. I'm terrified that if I look in it I'll start feeling bad about myself.

---

hmmmm,


It's worse than that, much much worse!





You will find yourself ... wait for it ...


... it's very hard to say the word in polite company ...


shhhhhhhhhhhhhh


....





shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh





...

d**lut******!


...


ahhhhgggghhhhggh


...

This is a painful activity, only to be taken on by the hardiest of souls and not to be taken lightly at all.



Best to keep well away
 

---

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I'm still trying to figure out various people's definitions of in-crowd, for those who think there is one. I might define in-crowd differently, but that doesn't really matter. Call it "[annoying] Group X as perceived by poster Y [who keep me from getting what I want out of the Ship]" if that helps. (I add the bracketed parts because generally the subject of in-crowd seems to come up in that context, rather than simply neutrally to say, "A, B, and C are in the in-crowd, but I don't mind at all.")

From Evangeline's latest post, I'm wondering if for her the definition is "the Hosts and Admins who get to dictate what happens on the Ship, plus anyone who says they agree with the Hosts and Admins." And it seems to me that one reason it's a problem to some posters that there's such a group is that sometimes they dictate things that not all Shipmates like.

But correct me if I've read this wrong, Evangeline. And I don't know if this is anyone else's definition of in-crowd.

Sometimes I think some posters' definition of in-crowd is "there's a group of posters who respond to each others posts and laughs at each others jokes and post a lot, and I barely get responded to at all."

Trying to think what other kinds of definitions of in-crowd I deduce from posts about in-crowds...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Can you set me straight on your definition of an in-crowd?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Can you set me straight on your definition of an in-crowd?

---

Wouldn't you have to be a member of an in-crowd to understand the definition?

---

quote:

---

A group of people who know the specifics or details about certain things such as games, programs, chatboxes and forums.

---

quote:

---

Popular kids

---

quote:

---

people who hang out with the popular people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thyme:
It's like being friends with Royalty. Those who are don't talk about it. So you never really know.

---

Except the present Prime Minister, of course. Who happily discusses his meetings with the Queen.

I wonder if RooK purrs?


 

---

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 
Ah but that's the point Boogie, the current PM is not a friend of Royalty, he only gets to see her 'cos he's the PM, big difference.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I wonder if RooK purrs?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I wonder if RooK purrs?

---

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