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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Oops: There goes my best intentions
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thednt
Apprentice
# 16248
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Posted
Went to Vigil Mass this evening at local Catholic church this evening (as an Anglican).
Took Holy Communion without thinking (ie not in Communion with the Catholic Church).
Priest gave me the deserved ticking off afterwards when he realised who I was (oops).
From a Catholic POV, is this a serious error I have committed?
To be honest, I was on auto-pilot as the words and rite of the Mass were in many ways similar to C of E worship.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Feb 2011
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
thednt, some topics on these boards are considered Dead Horses because they generate the same arguments every time and will likely not be resolved before the Parousia. Closed communion is one of them.
Thus I am transferring this thread to Dead Horses, and you can await replies to your query in the paddock.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
Many RC clergy I know struggle as much as we do with the state of Communion.
RC's accept our Baptism, and it is Baptism (not Confirmation) which is the pre-requisite for receiving the Eucharist.
This follows after a time of preparation for first communion. For those who are capable of understanding the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist is thus part of being able to receive the Sacrament.
For those of us who hold that same understanding (which at the end of the day I do - despite trying to hold a nice Anglican Via Media on the Real Presence my experience of the Eucharist compels me to accept it) it is doubly frustrating.
So I would apologise to the Priest. But assure him that I accept the Catholic Church's understanding of the Eucharist.
He would then be well within his rights to ask why you don't submit to the Holy See considering you have just taken the outward and inward action of one who is in full communion with the Church built on the Rock.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
On another note the official CofE view on who may receive is also not perfect - as it excludes anyone who may be excluded by their own communion. So a remarried RC is no more welcome at a CofE Altar than a RC one if you follow the rules.
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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thednt
Apprentice
# 16248
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Posted
I dunno.
I seem to have put someone's nose right out of joint. Should have gone to Wednesday Mass and missed that due to on site 18 hour call out.
Go today, after another day working and go on auto-pilot.
Probably sends the message that I am not right in the head.
I had made contact through the Ordinariate in Manchester. However, a full conversion looks likely.
Back tomorrow, 9am, apologise and say it was not intended etc.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Feb 2011
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by thednt:
From a Catholic POV, is this a serious error I have committed?
From a Catholic (ie. RC) perspective, you participated in a sacrament available only to members of the Church, without being one (in the full sense required). So, yes, an error about something which they consider rather important, and given that you knew that you weren't, by their rules, supposed to do it, and appeared to do so deliberately, a serious error.
From an Anglican point of view, it was a valid Eucharist, which is the Lord's Supper (not the property of any one denomination), and you are a bona fide member of the Lord's people, as much in communion with him as the Pope is. There's no theological reason for you not to receive communion whereever your own conscience permits - but politeness and charity to your fellow Christians are important, too, and give a case for abstaining where it would cause offence. If people in the congregation knew that you were Anglican, to my mind, that is a compelling reason not to receive. Of course, you weren't actually being uncharitable - you received without thinking that it might offend.
It seems to me that you should judge yourself as having committed (inadvertantly) a social faux pas. You didn't sin by the mere act of taking communion, but you did, wrongfully give offence to other Christians. Don't beat yourself up about it. Don't try to justify it. Apologise unreservedly, carry on going to that church, and don't do it again.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
From many (if not most) RC's point of view, what you did is really a business between you and your God. I know several RC priests who have no qualms giving communion to e.g. Lutherans. I think it is time to note that there is an increasing difference between what The Vatican says and what many a worthy priest / monk / layperson does "on the ground". In full conscience. In full communion with our brothers from other Christian denominations.
We aren't all Opus Dei types, you know ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
So welcome back to one of our masses whenever you feel it's right.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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thednt
Apprentice
# 16248
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Posted
I have to square things with the Parish Priest, as he knew I was Anglican.
One thing that did surprise me was how similar the wording is between the Catcholic and old-ASB rites I used to use in the C of E. Yes, this was my first Catcholic Mass.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Feb 2011
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thednt
Apprentice
# 16248
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Posted
So, I went along for 9am Mass, said my apologies, stated it was a mistake and unintentional, did not take Mass this morning and all sorted.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Feb 2011
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Intrepid Thurifer
Shipmate
# 77
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Posted
I don't care what the exclusive Roman Catholic Church teaches, if I ajm at a Cathilic mass I take communion just as I would at any other church
Posts: 142 | From: Melbourne Australia | Registered: May 2001
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thednt
Apprentice
# 16248
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Posted
For me, it's about respect.
If I go into a house/church and I know something is against the house rules, I don't do it out of respect for my hosts.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by thednt:
For me, it's about respect.
If I go into a house/church and I know something is against the house rules, I don't do it out of respect for my hosts.
AIUI, the only absolute prerequisite is baptism. If there's no Anglican (or Lutheran, etc) service which you can reasonably attend at that time, there's no problem. In our experience, RC priests tend to be very liberal in the application of this test.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
When I lived abroad, I regularly attended Mass at a Catholic church and sung in the choir there.
Wishing to be a respectful Anglican, I didn't receive communion. The other members of the choir, however, thought this was being rather bizarre and over-scrupulous ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Scotus
Shipmate
# 8163
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Posted
Edward Green has hit the nail on the head. Receiving communion at in the Catholic church is
quote:
the outward and inward action of one who is in full communion with the Church built on the Rock.
The OP made a genuine mistake which is fair enough, and it sounds like s/he may, praise God, be on a journey towards full communion with Peter.
Receiving communion is an ecclesial act, not an individual one - it signifies and effects our intimate union with Christ whose Body we receive and to whose Body we belong. Whilst it is true, even from a Catholic point of view, the Body of Christ comprises all the baptised, nevertheless the reality is that the bond of full communion which should exists between the entire people of God has been damaged by human sin. Full communion implies sharing the revealed faith and accepting the authority of the church given to it by Christ, as well as sharing in sacramental communion, and the first two things are a pre-requisite of the third. To put it another way, it is inconistent for someone who does not hold the Catholic faith and submit to the authority of the Catholic church to receive its sacraments.
Posts: 422 | From: Diocese of Brentwood | Registered: Aug 2004
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
When I lived abroad, I regularly attended Mass at a Catholic church and sung in the choir there.
Wishing to be a respectful Anglican, I didn't receive communion. The other members of the choir, however, thought this was being rather bizarre and over-scrupulous ...
For me, that begs the question of how much it's possible for a person to participate in a religion's rituals while still identifying with another religion or denomination.
Supposing the awkward talking point among the choir leads you to decide, one day, that you will take communion after all. What then? Will the priest say anything about it? Or will he just let it go?
Supposing the priest did say something about it. How would you respond if he asked you to go through the RCIA ceremony? Would you say, "I can't do that - I'm an Anglican"? Supposing you did go through the RCIA ceremony? Would that mean that you had ceased to be an Anglican? Or would it mean that you are now both a Catholic and an Anglican at the same time?
To be honest, I don't really understand why a person who regularly participates in Catholic ceremony but not Anglican ceremony would continue to self-identify as Anglican, unless (a) they are an academic in the field of Anglican theology (or perhaps just consider themselves to be well-read on Anglican history), or (b) they have a significant number of living or deceased friends or relatives who are Anglican.
You can swap "Anglican" and "Catholic" round in that last paragraph, or replace them with names of any other two religions or denominations, and I think the same thing applies.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
When I'm at a Catholic mass I naturally feel sad that our divisions prevent me from receiving the Sacrament, but I would never dream of going up and taking it. Even if the priest was a flaming liberal and straight-up told me I could receive, it just wouldn't feel right sneaking into the temple by a back alleyway instead of striding through the main gates with confidence.
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
If I am at a Catholic mass I take communion just as I would at any other Church - and the dear Catholic friends I attend with encourage me to do so.
The priests never comment.
<typo>
[ 13. March 2011, 04:25: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
To be honest, I don't really understand why a person who regularly participates in Catholic ceremony but not Anglican ceremony would continue to self-identify as Anglican, unless (a) they are an academic in the field of Anglican theology (or perhaps just consider themselves to be well-read on Anglican history), or (b) they have a significant number of living or deceased friends or relatives who are Anglican.
In my case, the reason I didn't go to an Anglican church was because the nearest one was a two-hour train journey away.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
If I am in an RC church and anyone there knows me, I don't go forward because I don't want to risk distressing anyone during their worship. If no one knows me (I'm traveling, the only church around is RC), I fully participate in the worship because no one will be distressed and I am sure God is not at all offended by my participating.
The last RC church I visited was a tourist site in a tourist town, communion followed a publicly advertised concert, nothing in the bulletin or said up front suggested a closed communion (in a tourist attraction church I would expect an announcement if they cared because outsiders can't be assumed to know insider rules), most people went forward and the priest served everyone both bread and wine.
I guess there are a lot of local variations these days!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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ButchCassidy
Shipmate
# 11147
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Posted
Belle Ringer- exactly.
I am a Protestant but have lived in a Catholic hall of residence for 2 years. I participate fully in the Mass: I read readings, sing in choir etc. But when it comes to receiving communion, I get a blessing.
1 Corinthians 8 is IMO exactly for this situation. I know that God infact allows me to receive communion. But "not everyone knows this" (v7). And if I did receive, "the exercise of my freedom would become a stumbling block to the weak" (v9), ie some people would be angry, and it would destroy the beneficial power of that Mass for them. "So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge" (v11). To me it makes little difference whether I receive or am blessed in any case.
I think the trickier one is when I am leading prayers, and I must chant aloud the Hail Mary. When I am in my seat I can stay quiet and silently pray to God "to aid their prayer". When leading the Hail Mary however, I say the words but inwardly pray to God that their prayers to Mary will be answered by Him.
I do not believe praying to Mary is a sin as such, as it is in a Christian spirit; more an error of knowledge. If it was a sin, I would have to refuse I suppose, and incur some stumbling block to others..
Posts: 104 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The last RC church I visited was a tourist site in a tourist town, communion followed a publicly advertised concert, nothing in the bulletin or said up front suggested a closed communion...
Except the fact that it was a Roman Catholic church, that is.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by thednt:
I have to square things with the Parish Priest, as he knew I was Anglican.
If he knows you're an Anglican, why did he give you the sacrament?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Yeah, I might be old-fashioned or putting barriers up where they don't exist anymore but I would not receive in an RC church under any circumstances. If you aren't RC, you aren't to receive. As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter who knows and who doesn't know. I know I am not RC and until something changes on their side or mine, I don't want to make it an issue.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by thednt:
I have to square things with the Parish Priest, as he knew I was Anglican.
If he knows you're an Anglican, why did he give you the sacrament?
If it's like my mom and dad's RC church, the priest may not have actually administered communion. Their priest gives the sacrament to laity who then administer communion. The priest then sits behind the altar and watches. Unless he got up and went running down to stop someone (which wouldn't be...well...nice and orderly), he really couldn't except by telling people before hand or after.
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The last RC church I visited was a tourist site in a tourist town, communion followed a publicly advertised concert, nothing in the bulletin or said up front suggested a closed communion...
Except the fact that it was a Roman Catholic church, that is.
When a church of any denomination invites the general public in a tourist area to a non-worship event such as a concert, the church is intentionally filing its hall with a mixture of various Christians and agnostics.
If it adds to the advertised event some activity it wants to restrict to just members, it will say so. Intentionally invited outsiders can't be expected to know in-group rules they are not told, and many (most?) non-Catholics including agnostcs don't know RC rules. Why would they?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Intentionally invited outsiders can't be expected to know in-group rules they are not told, and many (most?) non-Catholics including agnostcs don't know RC rules. Why would they?
Did you know the rule?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
On a tangental note; I went to an RC nuptial mass, out of respect I didn't take communion but out of habit I participated in the mass and said the relevant responses -because they were, then anyway, the same as the Anglican ones. This lapsed RC (who is a very unpleasant person anyway) made it clear she disapproved of me saying the responses-it was my belief that it was just taking the bread and wine when I didn't believe in transubstantiation that was the problem-not saying the words of the mass.
Is it wrong to "participate" in the mass in any way if you're not an RC?
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
On a tangental note; I went to an RC nuptial mass, out of respect I didn't take communion but out of habit I participated in the mass and said the relevant responses -because they were, then anyway, the same as the Anglican ones. This lapsed RC (who is a very unpleasant person anyway) made it clear she disapproved of me saying the responses-it was my belief that it was just taking the bread and wine when I didn't believe in transubstantiation that was the problem-not saying the words of the mass.
Is it wrong to "participate" in the mass in any way if you're not an RC?
No, your lapsed RC friend(?) doesn't know what he's talking about.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
When a church of any denomination invites the general public in a tourist area to a non-worship event such as a concert, the church is intentionally filing its hall with a mixture of various Christians and agnostics.
Yes, most certainly.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
If it adds to the advertised event some activity it wants to restrict to just members, it will say so. Intentionally invited outsiders can't be expected to know in-group rules they are not told, and many (most?) non-Catholics including agnostcs don't know RC rules. Why would they?
If a person doesn't know the rules, I don't think it would be seen as a big breach. But since you know them, it is different. I'm not RC. I'm Lutheran. If I am in A RC church, I don't participate in the Eucharist, because I know that I shouldn't. You also know that you shouldn't.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Intentionally invited outsiders can't be expected to know in-group rules they are not told, and many (most?) non-Catholics including agnostcs don't know RC rules. Why would they?
Did you know the rule?
I didn't go forward, and then when I saw the guy was serving both bread and wine figured I had misunderstood the denomination of the church but it was too late to respond. Checked the bulletin, not a clue what denomination or whether communion is open or closed.
Later someone confirmed my initial guess it was Catholic.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I wouldn't take RC Mass, because I know they have a rule where you can't take it if you're not RC, and so I respect their rule.
However, if it is not an RC church, but another kind of church which is very 'high', such as high Anglican, I have no idea how to tell if I am supposed to take it or not. I once accompanied someone to a high church service, and at the Mass, I explained to the priest that I can't take it because I'm not Catholic (I was confused and thought it was a Catholic church) and he asked my background and then said I could take it. But I was aware that the church understanding of the wine and wafer might be different from mine, so I was confused about why I was allowed to take it.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter: From many (if not most) RC's point of view, what you did is really a business between you and your God. I know several RC priests who have no qualms giving communion to e.g. Lutherans. I think it is time to note that there is an increasing difference between what The Vatican says and what many a worthy priest / monk / layperson does "on the ground". In full conscience. In full communion with our brothers from other Christian denominations.
We aren't all Opus Dei types, you know
So welcome back to one of our masses whenever you feel it's right.
Quite the opposite actually. The generation that would be so inclined to deliberately profane the sacrament are retiring or dying off and being replaced with young, orthodox clergy who will not. Eucharistic unity is the end point of true ecumenism not the starting point as it is the single most visible sign of true unity in faith. No serious theological argument can be made otherwise.
To encourage another to commit sacrilege is unconscionable.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
If I am in an RC church and anyone there knows me, I don't go forward because I don't want to risk distressing anyone during their worship. If no one knows me (I'm traveling, the only church around is RC), I fully participate in the worship because no one will be distressed and I am sure God is not at all offended by my participating.
I don't think God is offended by worship either, but that's not the same as receiving communion. Not all worship is receiving communion. I think God knows what's in our hearts, but that should make us more humble and careful of what we do. Because we may not agree with the "house rules", so to speak, and we may think it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. But God knows if we know what the host's "house rules" are or not, and I believe it matters to God whether we care about respecting our hosts and neighbours too, so if in the long run God doesn't ding us for doing something we think doesn't really matter, he may ding us for our attitude towards our neighbors and toward the things they hold important. Basically, it's the Golden Rule.
quote:
The last RC church I visited was a tourist site in a tourist town, communion followed a publicly advertised concert, nothing in the bulletin or said up front suggested a closed communion (in a tourist attraction church I would expect an announcement if they cared because outsiders can't be assumed to know insider rules), most people went forward and the priest served everyone both bread and wine.
I guess there are a lot of local variations these days!
This sounds odd to me. I've lived in tourist areas, and I've gone to churches that received tourists and that sometimes held public concerts.
What time was this concert? What sort of concert was it?
Whenever I've seen or been to a concert at a Catholic church it's been in the evening, like they usually are at the theater, which normally is much too late for Mass. Daily Mass is usually in the early morning, midday, or afternoon and Sundays are taken up by Mass all morning and midday so in my experience it would be unusual that a Mass would follow a public concert.
Most bulletins in Catholic churches in this country are just for parish announcements and to list phone numbers, Mass & confession times, etc. It's in the so-called "missalettes" in the pews with the order of Mass and the readings that you'll find the statement, either at the front or the back, from the bishops on who may receive communion.
When distributing communion priests are acting on good faith and wouldn't stop anyone unless it was pretty obvious something was fishy. This goes for Catholics too, mind you. You're not supposed to receive unless you've gone to Confession and are in a state of grace but most priests (as far as I've seen) don't ask each communicant as they come up to receive whether they went to Confession last Saturday or not.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
p.s. to what I wrote above:
I think we're all liable to self-deception so it isn't enough to tell yourself, "God knows what's in my heart, he knows what I meant to do" because he sure knows it better than we know ourselves.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Intentionally invited outsiders can't be expected to know in-group rules they are not told, and many (most?) non-Catholics including agnostcs don't know RC rules. Why would they?
Did you know the rule?
I didn't go forward, and then when I saw the guy was serving both bread and wine figured I had misunderstood the denomination of the church but it was too late to respond. Checked the bulletin, not a clue what denomination or whether communion is open or closed.
Later someone confirmed my initial guess it was Catholic.
I would have thought that, given you know that some churches have closed communion, and you didn't know what kind of church this was, the reasonable thing to do would have been to not go forward, out of respect for the church if it happened to be one that had a closed communion. Err on the side of not offending and all that.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I wouldn't take RC Mass, because I know they have a rule where you can't take it if you're not RC, and so I respect their rule.
However, if it is not an RC church, but another kind of church which is very 'high', such as high Anglican, I have no idea how to tell if I am supposed to take it or not. I once accompanied someone to a high church service, and at the Mass, I explained to the priest that I can't take it because I'm not Catholic (I was confused and thought it was a Catholic church) and he asked my background and then said I could take it. But I was aware that the church understanding of the wine and wafer might be different from mine, so I was confused about why I was allowed to take it.
Happened to some friends of ours in a church in north Queensland. They are RC and saw a sign for Mass. Went on Sunday, found out the words of the liturgy a bit unusual, while the ritual was that they only experienced at the highest of High Masses. At the end of the service they found out it was Anglican.
Back to my earlier post. AIUI, if I cannot attend an Anglican service, I may attend an RC one. This usually happens on holidays at a village where Anglicanism has never been heard of. We go and talk to the priest beforehand, explain as best we can (our French and Italian don't run to technical theological terms) that we approach the Mass much as they do; yet to receive a knockback.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
To be honest, I don't really understand why a person who regularly participates in Catholic ceremony but not Anglican ceremony would continue to self-identify as Anglican, unless (a) they are an academic in the field of Anglican theology (or perhaps just consider themselves to be well-read on Anglican history), or (b) they have a significant number of living or deceased friends or relatives who are Anglican.
In my case, the reason I didn't go to an Anglican church was because the nearest one was a two-hour train journey away.
Yes - but that doesn't answer the question of why you don't become a Catholic.
Not saying it's wrong that you don't; it's just that I don't really understand it. Then again, the fact that I don't rate denominational allegiance that highly may itself be a result of my partially Evangelical background.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Although in the distant past participation in the sacred mysteries was limited to those who were of the 'household of the Faith' anyone may now ,if they so wish ,attend both the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The mass is divided into these two parts. The first part (Liturgy of the Word) is in a sense evangelistic and directed towards all.The second part (Liturgy of the Eucharist) is really for those who are in some way committed.
There are rules in the Catholic Church about who may actually receive the Sacred species and these rules apply to those who are (card carrying) Catholics as well as to those who are not.Nowadays with a practice of practically everyone going to communion it is not always known by casual observers that not all of those who claim to be catholics are automatically allowed to take Communion.Whether they do or not is another matter.With catholics coming and going from one parish/Mass centre to another most priests have little idea of who some of the communicants are,,but would simply assume that they are communicants in good faith.
To my mind ,if this is the case, there is no great harm done, though the rules are still there to be found out by those who are interested in taking an active part in the church community.
BTW ,one does NOT take or receive Mass.One takes or receives Communion. One can attend Mass,celebrate Mass, participate in Mass,assist at Mass, hear Mass,but one does not TAKE Mass (in the sense of receiving communion).
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
To be honest, I don't really understand why a person who regularly participates in Catholic ceremony but not Anglican ceremony would continue to self-identify as Anglican, unless (a) they are an academic in the field of Anglican theology (or perhaps just consider themselves to be well-read on Anglican history), or (b) they have a significant number of living or deceased friends or relatives who are Anglican.
In my case, the reason I didn't go to an Anglican church was because the nearest one was a two-hour train journey away.
Ricardus may find that the distance factor is a possible (by RC canon law) justification for receiving the Sacrament, providing that he has an understanding of the Eucharist analogous to that of the RCC.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
This sounds odd to me. I've lived in tourist areas, and I've gone to churches that received tourists and that sometimes held public concerts.
What time was this concert? What sort of concert was it?
Whenever I've seen or been to a concert at a Catholic church it's been in the evening, like they usually are at the theater, which normally is much too late for Mass.
I've walked in to Mass at my church before and been surprised by a 'special musical guest' that was more a concert than a worship, complete with folks coming just to see the musical guest.
Being Episcopalian and a fluffy version at that, my priest at such events has always made a point before the Liturgy of the Eucharist began to remind everyone we've got Open Communion at our shack.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
To be honest, I don't really understand why a person who regularly participates in Catholic ceremony but not Anglican ceremony would continue to self-identify as Anglican, unless (a) they are an academic in the field of Anglican theology (or perhaps just consider themselves to be well-read on Anglican history), or (b) they have a significant number of living or deceased friends or relatives who are Anglican.
In my case, the reason I didn't go to an Anglican church was because the nearest one was a two-hour train journey away.
Ricardus may find that the distance factor is a possible (by RC canon law) justification for receiving the Sacrament, providing that he has an understanding of the Eucharist analogous to that of the RCC.
Exactly. It's not so much the distance, but great difficulty of attending a Eucharist of your normal church. If it's an ordinary Sunday, but the Anglican church down the road only has a service on the 4th Sunday of the month (quite common in much of Europe) a quiet chat to the RC priest will almost certainly see you in. But do take the trouble to have the chat and don't make a presumption.
And in answer to other posts, it's very easy to be an Anglican and adhere to Anglican teachings, yet attend an RC church regularly without swimming across. Many Anglicans would accept much Roman teaching, but not such matters as the magisterium, the Immaculate Conception, and a range of other matters - just like our Eastern Orthodox friends in fact.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by thednt:
For me, it's about respect.
If I go into a house/church and I know something is against the house rules, I don't do it out of respect for my hosts.
That would be my take on it, too.
The food on offer in the 'house' may be as nutritional and tasty as any I might find in my own place. But knowing that the head of the household has directed I not be fed at his table, leaves me, I feel, with no choice but to refrain from pushing myself forward. Both out of acknowledgement of the house-rule and out of self-respect.
Just my personal feeling.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
If we don't go to Communion, what is our proper posture? From my understanding, it is to kneel throughout the time that the Blessed Sacrament is being carried about or distributed. But this would very likely block the movement of others in the pew who do wish to go to Communion. So one must at least get up and move into the aisle to accommodate them.
I've sometimes attended RC masses in which going to Communion = going with the flow, and any nonconformist gets looked at funny. If this was the case in your experience, perhaps your defense is that you didn't want to be a stumbling block (perhaps literally).
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Although what alogon says about kneeling when the Blessed Sacrament is being carried about,the most common practice on this side of the pond is that people sit when Communion is being distributed. There isn't usually any problemabout those who wish to get past those who are not going to communion.
I wonder what those who are not actually members of the Catholic church (in communion with the pope) do ,if they go to an orthodox church ? If they try to approach the altar there,there might be problems.If I am correct the priest should know that the communicant is orthodox and will not give communion otherwise.
I do understand that western christians in general and Anglicans in particular may feel comfortable in a catholic church,more so that in an orthodox church,but they are missing somrthing important,namely being in full communion with those around them,assuming that they are in full communion with the rest of the Catholic church.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
In my experience, there are so many people who don't go up to receive communion, that not receiving is not looked at as being unusual, and staying behind in the pew is pretty normal.
In the U.S. it's normal to kneel at the Agnus Dei and afterwards through Communion, except in dioceses where the bishop has asked for a different posture. Where people kneel through communion, if someone wants to pass you to go up and receive, you simply get up or sit for a moment, let the person or people pass, and then kneel again.
At any given Mass there are plenty of Catholics who, for whatever reason, will not go up to receive communion. The traditional thing to do in that situation (and at other times) is to make an act of Spiritual Communion . That's a very old-school, traditional thing to do.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Geneviève
Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098
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Posted
My experience here in the US has been that it depends on the RC diocese and/or the community as to whether communion is open to all Christians. I don't receive if I know I am not welcome--I don't want to give offense and I find the attitude offensive.
OTOH, I have received communion--known to the priests--in one diocese. I have received communion (or would be welcomed) in every Jesuit community I've known.
All of which seems to mean, in response to the OP, that the rule or the application of the rule varies quite a bit. In the case of the OP, you did the right thing to apologize if the priest was so upset. But a sin???? Have you offended God? I rather imagine God is offended by the all the rules the various Christian denominations have set up to exclude each other.
[ 26. March 2011, 01:49: Message edited by: Geneviève ]
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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)
Posts: 4336 | From: Eastern US | Registered: Feb 2005
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Geneviève: My experience here in the US has been that it depends on the RC diocese and/or the community as to whether communion is open to all Christians. I don't receive if I know I am not welcome--I don't want to give offense and I find the attitude offensive.
OTOH, I have received communion--known to the priests--in one diocese. I have received communion (or would be welcomed) in every Jesuit community I've known.
Quelle surprise...
quote:
All of which seems to mean, in response to the OP, that the rule or the application of the rule varies quite a bit. In the case of the OP, you did the right thing to apologize if the priest was so upset. But a sin???? Have you offended God? I rather imagine God is offended by the all the rules the various Christian denominations have set up to exclude each other.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Of course it's not a sin to receive communion if you believe yourself to be in a state of grace and to have prepared yourself by being in communion with your fellow sisters and brothers in the faith.
However,if you doubt the truth of what the church proclaims and are not in communion with your brothers and sisters and you know that you are not in communion with them and you know that you are not in communion with the understanding of the church,why go forward to receive
communion ?
All that notwithstanding ,the Catholic church (not just memebers of the Jesuit order )offers
communion to those baptised Christians who share its faith in the eucharist and who are for one reason or another deprived of the ministrations of their own clergy.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Of course it's not a sin to receive communion if you believe yourself to be in a state of grace
I'd say it's a sin to think you're in a state of grace. God's call, not mine.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
A 'state of grace' does not mean that one thinks one is perfect,but rather that one is not aware of having committed a mortal sin.
Without knowledge and awareness of the seriousness of sin,one cannot commit a mortal sin and therefore one is in a 'state of grace'.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I suspect that few--if any--people die in a state of grace, with everything taken care of.
That helped make me a universalist.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Oh. Since I think the distinction between "mortal" and "venal" (sp?) sins is to say the very least questionable, I'm probably not the best person to ask.
Also the Orthodox understanding of sin, not being based on Roman (or any other) law, acknowledges the possibility of sins "committed in knowledge or in ignorance" and even sins that we're not aware of committing. This is because our understanding of sin is the "falling short of the mark" understanding, not "intentionally breaking the law".
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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