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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Adapting the 1662 BCP for use outside of Her Majesty's Dominions
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut in another thread:
A retired clerical acquaintance who has filled chaplaincies in the Mediterranean assures me that his congregations routinely prayed (depending on their location) for the King of Spain or the President of the French Republic. And in Oman, the mixed Anglican congregation prays for Qaboos our Sultan. *end ot tangent*
I found this quite interesting, particularly the part about praying for the President of France. The 1662 BCP has occasionally been authorized for use in these United States, primarily for Evensong. And, of course, many people use it privately for their own personal praying of the Office. When it is use here, we generally do not say "O lord, save our president" in the suffrages, or refer to "Barack, our most gracious president" in the litany. In general the form used is "O Lord save the State". I must admit that I find it extremely odd to think of the president of a secular, laicist republic being prayed for in the exact same forms as an anointed Christian queen. I do think one can mention elected officials by name in the liturgical prayers, but I would think that the words used would need to be altered. After all, the President's political enemies won't consider him or her "most gracious". I think that "save the state" is probably the better form to use when one is in a secular state with an elected president. In the UK and other constitutional monarchies, as I understand the theory, the monarch is the symbolic head of the entire political and judicial system, and by praying for her one in effect prays for all. By contrast, the American president is explicitly not in charge of the legislative branch and often has to bargain with it! Likewise the judiciary is independent. Thus "save the state" is a more inclusive formulation. At any rate, how do, or would you adapt the 1662 BCP for use outside the UK and the Commonwealth Realms?
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
The CoI Prayer Book provides that, in the Republic, the following form be used:
Grant to The President of this State and to all in authority, wisdom and strength to know and to do thy will. and at the Communion service:
We beseech thee also so to direct and dispose the hearts of all Christian Rulers, that they may truly and indifferently minister justice, to the punishment of wickedness and vice, and to the maintenance of thy true religion, and virtue.
This, and the prayers for various presidents and sultans, would be inspired by 1 Timothy 2.2, which addresses us on this topic. The design of local constitutions would not be relevant here-- that of the president/sultan/grand duke as the head of state is the relevant factor, and a person rather than an abstraction is being prayed for. The Swiss, of course, have a plural head of state, which would be interesting to work out. And I suppose that any Anglican congregations operating in the old Papal States would have had to pray for the Pontiff.
I have heard the President of France (Chirac, at the time) prayed for at S Andrew's Church in Pau. Latin RC churches in Canada have a generic those in authority prayer, but the Ukrainians and Maronites mention the Queen by name, as do the Orthodox.
[ 21. October 2014, 00:36: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Perhaps something along the lines: O Lord, save our Nation gets to the substance of the prayer, and is of general application.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I find the idea of praying for 'the nation' rather than for the actual person, preferably by name, a bit abstract, less real. After all, even if you voted for the other candidate, once elected Barak Obama is the head of state.
Attending the equivalent of the CofE in a foreign state which had a president, who was by UK standards a dictator, it struck me as entirely reasonable that he should be prayed for. After all, even if one had little sympathy for him, he needed it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
If Paul could pray for Nero I can't see an objection to praying for any other head of state. I've always taken it as being an acknowledgement that they are open to greater temptation and have heavier duties than the rest of us rather than being an endorsement of the currently existing form of government.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
The Church of Ireland suffrage 'Guide and defend our rulers' seems suitable enough, even if part of me resents the concept of 'rule' in general. 'Guide and defend the governing representatives of your people' would be more to my taste, despite the problems with the scansion!
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I find the idea of praying for 'the nation' rather than for the actual person, preferably by name, a bit abstract, less real. After all, even if you voted for the other candidate, once elected Barak Obama is the head of state.
I like the practice of praying for the President by first name ("Barack our President", "George our President", etc.). I'm sure it's an inheritance from the pattern of praying for the Sovereign ("Elizabeth our Queen"), but it also serves to remind me that we all stand equal before God (to whom the above are just Barack, George and Elizabeth). Actually, in theory at least The People are sovereign in the US, not the President. So maybe Americans should substitute a prayer for the People in place of the one for the Monarch.
[ 21. October 2014, 18:07: Message edited by: Al Eluia ]
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Dogwalker
Shipmate
# 14135
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Posted
It seems to me this problem was solved 225 years ago, in Philadelphia.
From the 1789 US Book if Common Prayer:
quote:
A Prayer for the President of the United States, and all in Civil Authority.
O LORD, our heavenly Father, the high and mighty Ruler of the universe, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers upon earth; Most heartily we beseech thee, with thy favour to behold and bless thy servant The President of the United States, and all others in authority; and so replenish them with the grace of thy Holy Spirit, that they may always incline to thy will, and walk in thy way. Endue them plenteously with heavenly gifts; grant them in health and prosperity long to live; and finally, after this life, to attain everlasting joy and felicity; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
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If God had meant for us to fly, he wouldn't have given us the railways. - Unknown
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dogwalker:
[QB] It seems to me this problem was solved 225 years ago, in Philadelphia.
From the 1789 US Book if Common Prayer:
And the 1928 one as well. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
like the practice of praying for the President by first name ("Barack our President", "George our President", etc.). I'm sure it's an inheritance from the pattern of praying for the Sovereign ("Elizabeth our Queen"), but it also serves to remind me that we all stand equal before God (to whom the above are just Barack, George and Elizabeth). Actually, in theory at least The People are sovereign in the US, not the President. So maybe Americans should substitute a prayer for the People in place of the one for the Monarch.
Back at our old parish, we used to pray weekly for "George, our president; John, our governor, and Elizabeth, our mayor." Elizabeth our mayor was also parish administrator of the large RC student parish. On one occasion she had reason to attend our Sunday service (someone she knew was being baptized, confirmed, or ordained; I can't remember which). She later wrote a letter to the rector and vestry telling how deeply moved it was to hear that we prayed for her by name every week in church.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I noticed that despite the overwhelmingly American demographic at the recent provincial conference of the Society of Catholic Priests, no concession was made to them in the choice of prayer book: all offices were 1962 BCP and all Masses were traditional language BAS (and used Eucharistic Prayer A, the '62 prayer book canon, rather than the Scoto-American prayer B which would be more familiar to our guests). The officiants all prayed for "Elizabeth our Queen," even though in most cases this was not true in the "literal, grammatical sense." (And of course, the British expats would have noticed the different, more euphonic answer to "Give peace in our time, O Lord").
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
I noticed that despite the overwhelmingly American demographic at the recent provincial conference of the Society of Catholic Priests, no concession was made to them in the choice of prayer book: all offices were 1962 BCP and all Masses were traditional language BAS (and used Eucharistic Prayer A, the '62 prayer book canon, rather than the Scoto-American prayer B which would be more familiar to our guests). The officiants all prayed for "Elizabeth our Queen," even though in most cases this was not true in the "literal, grammatical sense." (And of course, the British expats would have noticed the different, more euphonic answer to "Give peace in our time, O Lord").
Where was it held? That unequivocally determines for which head of state those attending should be praying.
[ 29. October 2014, 07:57: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Oh, it was in Toronto: it wasn't the choice of head of state that I found noteworthy, but the grammatical person. But it wasn't the first time I'd heard a priest pray "for our Queen" on behalf of his congregation even when not a subject himself, and I have no better suggestion to offer for how to handle such a situation.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
When on my annual mother-schlepping pilgrimage to Florida, I had occasion to attend a TEC outlet in New Smyrna Beach, where a Canadian priest was supplying that Sunday. Working more from memory than is advisable for the clergy, she prayed for "Elizabeth our Queen" then, catching herself, "George our President."
On the way out I told her that she need not have corrected herself, but could have simply used "Elizabeth our rightful Queen" to cover all geographical circumstances.
As a minor tangent, perhaps more related to the Flags thread, a dinner guest on Friday recounted her teaching days in Malaysia and when she first heard the priest bidding prayers for Abdul our Sultan.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
Oh, it was in Toronto: it wasn't the choice of head of state that I found noteworthy, but the grammatical person. But it wasn't the first time I'd heard a priest pray "for our Queen" on behalf of his congregation even when not a subject himself, and I have no better suggestion to offer for how to handle such a situation.
As a U.S. citizen acting as precentor at Evensong in St Mary's Cathedral, Edinburgh, you can bet I chanted "O Lord, save the Queen," as it was not my own Office but that of the place.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Of course, and although "the Queen" doesn't raise the same question of wording, I expect the rationale would be the same.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Relatedly, we have recently trialled using the BCP instead of Common Worship + bits from the Roman Rite in Trad language at our 8am service. The main objection has come from a couple, one of whom is a practicing RC (who nonethless receives the sacrament), who primarily object to the Collect for Her Majesty on the grounds that she hasn't done enough to prevent unspecified changes to the law with regard to faith and morals. I'm trying to think of a constructive response to this and not entirely succeeding!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Relatedly, we have recently trialled using the BCP instead of Common Worship + bits from the Roman Rite in Trad language at our 8am service. The main objection has come from a couple, one of whom is a practicing RC (who nonethless receives the sacrament), who primarily object to the Collect for Her Majesty on the grounds that she hasn't done enough to prevent unspecified changes to the law with regard to faith and morals. I'm trying to think of a constructive response to this and not entirely succeeding!
The Collect is not intended to be a reward for the Queen in return for satisfactory performance: it prays the heavenly Father to replenish her with the Holy Spirit, endow her with heavenly gifts, etc. If she hasn't done enough, it is perhaps owing to their insufficient participation in those services using the collect! Or, perhaps, to the limitations which constitutional monarchies place on sovereigns. They could also pray more fervently for public authorities and, dare I suggest it, involve themselves in the electoral process, for the Queen does as she is advised by her ministers. If they don't like the advice, they could change the ministers.
You could even refer to the Queen's Xmas message, which has always featured perspectives reflecting her Xn beliefs-- occasionally with more purpose than that which we get from our bishops.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The Collect is not intended to be a reward for the Queen in return for satisfactory performance: it prays the heavenly Father to replenish her with the Holy Spirit, endow her with heavenly gifts, etc. If she hasn't done enough, it is perhaps owing to their insufficient participation in those services using the collect! Or, perhaps, to the limitations which constitutional monarchies place on sovereigns. They could also pray more fervently for public authorities and, dare I suggest it, involve themselves in the electoral process, for the Queen does as she is advised by her ministers. If they don't like the advice, they could change the ministers.
You could even refer to the Queen's Xmas message, which has always featured perspectives reflecting her Xn beliefs-- occasionally with more purpose than that which we get from our bishops.
That gets a ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) , especially the bit "it is perhaps owing to their insufficient participation in those services using the collect!"
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
... British expats would have noticed the different, more euphonic answer to "Give peace in our time, O Lord" ...
My Better Half has re-set several sets of responses to accommodate the response in the Canadian Prayer Book ("and evermore mightily defend us").
In the case of the responses by Martin Neary*, he e-mailed his re-working to the composer, who gave it his blessing.
* which are probably the only ones we do (apart from D's own ones) whose composer is still alive.
eta: I find "because there is none other that fighteth for us ..." more euphonic, but we can agree to differ.
[ 03. November 2014, 14:55: Message edited by: Piglet ]
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alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I suppose it could just be the familiarity factor, but it always sounds like quite a lot of syllables to me!
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
... Besides, there are many countries in which unfortunate citizens would rather pray for The Queen than for their own sorry ruler.
I am one of said citizens.
Honoured though I am that you should feel that way about my sovereign, if that is how you feel, doesn't that mean that your own ruler needs your prayers?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
... Besides, there are many countries in which unfortunate citizens would rather pray for The Queen than for their own sorry ruler.
I am one of said citizens.
Honoured though I am that you should feel that way about my sovereign, if that is how you feel, doesn't that mean that your own ruler needs your prayers?
Good question. I always pray for those in authority as a group. But I do think an individual in authority can go so wrong that it is no longer appropriate to pray for him. Or at the very least, if an individual can no longer pray for him, he should be allowed that space.
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My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
But I do think an individual in authority can go so wrong that it is no longer appropriate to pray for him. Or at the very least, if an individual can no longer pray for him, he should be allowed that space.
You first statement, of course, cannot be true, witnessed by the statement by Our Lord from the Cross and by the Protomartyr Stephen at his stoning. From a practical matter, the prayer for the individual in authority is more of a prayer for the Office—and by metonymy the structure and people intended to be served by that office—than it is for the individual currently holding it.
Your second statement, of course, is completely sensible. I have enemies I feel to be so execrable that I cannot hold them in my mind at all with Christian charity, miserable sinner that I am.
[ 03. November 2014, 20:00: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
I suppose it could just be the familiarity factor, but it always sounds like quite a lot of syllables to me!
That's exactly what it is: when I first learned various sets of Responses, those were the words set, and when I moved here I had to sort of "un-learn" them and get used to the other version.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
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