quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Healey Willan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Go to the RSCM (Royal School of Church Music) for advice.

If nothing else, they sell copies of Merbecke and the Missa de Angelis which have been adapted to the words in Common Worship.

They publish at least a dozen different settings - there's a newish one by Peter Nardone (Mass of St Cedd) and others that are tuneful (Philip Godfrey Mass of St James seems to be well received).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Healey Willan.

---

YMMV but our experience is not for congregational singing - to which our congregation would add listening.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Healey Willan.

---

AKA the Second Communion Service in the Hymnal 1940? In regular use at my shack (1928 words, of course ).
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Depends on the service:

For family service we use something called The Wiltshire Service by Richard Shephard (sometimes using an alternative Gloria); family service uses simplified confession, eucharistic prayer as recommended for a liturgy with significant number of children, etc.

The rest of the time the routine is:
Advent - Parish Mass Dom Gregory Murray
Christmas-Epiphany & Easter - Harold Darke in F
Lent - Addington Service/ Byrd Mass for 4 voices
Ordinary Time - Grayston Ives for Rite A of the ASB/ Wiltshire Service

Where it is an either or the deciding factors are (a) other service music and (b) choir numbers.

But there are plenty of churches out there who do the Murray week in, week out - I can even think of one that does the same Alleluia and gospel responses throughout the year - not surprising since they don't vary eucharistic prayer either.

Of course, we also have full choral Matins once a month as the main service, plus a full Evensong is now established.
 

---

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
We tried the Wiltshire Setting on Sundays 1.3 and 5 for a while, but generally it was not popular. There are quite a few tricky patches for a congregation to manage. I liked the manner in which the Lord God, Lamb of God in the Gloria were thrown into the sharp contrast they are.

On those Sundays, we now use another English setting which is much more popular. It is just so easy to sing and logical as well. Sing it once and you know it. It came to us without a name.

Sundays 2 and 4 see the Dudman - again straightforward and easy for a congregation.
 

---

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:


Anyone use Missa da Angelis or Merbecke for their congregations week on week?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liturgylover:
We tend to rotate our settings by season, and include DGM (which everyone seems to love!).

The other ones we use are
- Thorne, Mass of St Thomas,
- Paul Inwood (The Gathering Mass, I think)
- Lourdes Gloria
- Peter Jones Coventry setting
- Missa de Angelis Kyrie

All easy to sing and popular

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
Grateful for help so far received. Thanks.

But wouldn't that St Anne Mass if used at Westminster (RC) cathedral have the RC texts which arent Common Worship?

Lugg

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Not Missa de Angelis, but Communion Service IV in the Hymnal 1940 is the Gregorian Missa cum jubilo. We use it during penitential seasons.

---

Missa Marialis: a festival service for the Holy Eucharist / adapted to the American liturgy and harmonized for accompaniment ; plainchant edited by Charles Winfred Douglas.
Douglas, Winfred.
New York: H.W. Gray Co., sole agents for Novello & Co., c1915.

 

---

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
Grateful for help so far received. Thanks.

But wouldn't that St Anne Mass if used at Westminster (RC) cathedral have the RC texts which arent Common Worship?

Lugg

---

I attend the Saturday 6.00 pm vigil Mass at Westminster Cathedral, engagements permitting, which is most weeks.

Their in-house booklet of the settings used, including the St. Ann's Mass, contains the RC texts as authorised a couple of years ago and which are presently in use.
 

---

Posted by Magersfontein Lugg (# 18240) on :
 
I thought that the texts would not work for Common Worship, but I'd be interested to know of publication details for the CW version you say you have seen Leo. Thanks.

So many choices, so many ideas.

I take it Gregory Murray is well used.
Which is most popular after that do you think - its just that we dont want to use a version few churches use. Our people come and go so we want something they could well find somewhere else.

lugg
 

---

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :
 
Murray is by far the most popular congregational setting round here in North London, with the Thorne Mass of St Thomas perhaps a distant second.
 

---

Posted by Magersfontein Lugg (# 18240) on :
 
Thanks liturgylover

This website claims the Mass of St Thomas is 'arguably' the most widely sung setting in the UK. But then the website is by the composer

Anyone else recommend this setting as a good alternative to Dom Gregory Murray
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Thorne's Mass of St. Thomas is used regularly here, too. The congregation know it and join in well.

As an alternative, for variation, our Director of Music has written his own setting - it has taken a while to catch on, but now the congregation seem to accept it almost (but not quite) as much as the Thorne.

Appleford ('Apple Pie') seems to have dropped completely out of the repertoire - it was the most popular version 20 or so years ago.
 

---

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
Thanks liturgylover

This website claims the Mass of St Thomas is 'arguably' the most widely sung setting in the UK. But then the website is by the composer

Anyone else recommend this setting as a good alternative to Dom Gregory Murray

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
I thought that the texts would not work for Common Worship, but I'd be interested to know of publication details for the CW version you say you have seen Leo. Thanks.

---

It was revised in 2011 for the beatification of John Henry Newman and the new Roman mass. This is it.
 

---

Posted by Magersfontein Lugg (# 18240) on :
 
I think thatb is a RC setting, Leo. The texts are different in the RC modern mass to those of Common Worship.

It seems from what people have kindly written that the Thorne Mass is the one to go for.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
It was written before the new translation.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
There is a setting that Peter Hurford did for Series III which can be adapted fairly easily. Just try not to morph into Pop goes the weasel during the Gloria
 

---

Posted by TomM (# 4618) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
I think thatb is a RC setting, Leo. The texts are different in the RC modern mass to those of Common Worship.

It seems from what people have kindly written that the Thorne Mass is the one to go for.

---

If I remember rightly (I don't have a copy to hand) the only correction you need to make to St. Anne is to turn sins into sin in the Agnus Dei.

The other texts are the ecumenical texts, which were then shared by CW and the Missal.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Of course, I forgot the bl**d**g obvious:

A Community Mass by Richard Proulx (Rite A ICET texts) has 3 versions of the Kyrie, 2 of the Agnus Dei.

Its almost endlessly flexible, with everything from unison congregational lines to quite complex harmony lines; and has also been properly scored, mainly for brass and percussion but also strings, with 5 variations, plus organ. Published by OUP who have a hire service for the orchestral parts if you don't want to buy them.
 

---

Posted by Magersfontein Lugg (# 18240) on :
 
Ah! Thats interesting l'organist. Thanks for that.

I was wondering how it - or others compares with Dom Gregory Murray. - Would it do, say as festival and Murray for Ordinary or...

What do you (kindly) suggest
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
There is a lot less of the Proulx if you just do the unison congregation part, but you can expand on it far more than the Murray.

I think it all boils down to how you want to use said setting. For my part, I wouldn't be happy with having one setting only for use every Sunday of the year - and congregations have far more capacity for learning and retaining music than some musicians give them credit.
 

---

Posted by Magersfontein Lugg (# 18240) on :
 
So given the ones we talked about l'organist (or anyone else!) how'd you divide them in the church year.
E.g. Murray for general green season...

Thank you so much
 

---

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
I have yet to see a setting of the new texts that is nearly as gracious, or gently inspired, as Willan's Missa de S. Maria Magdalena (or several other settings, for that matter). Perhaps in time... However,

Of the settings in Lift Every Voice and Sing II, my choir and I chose David Hurd's Gloria (no. 241) and Grayson Warren Brown's Sanctus (no. 255) to introduce a few years ago. They are fetchingly melodic and have worn well. I'd put them up against anything in the Hymnal 1982.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
How to divide?

Well: I'd choose something simple for Advent/Lent - say the Addington Service, or Merbecke, or similar.

For Festivals: go for it - Haydn, Mozart, Schubert if you can do it well.

Eastertide/Christmastide - go for something like Grayston Ives.

There should always be space for something simply like Byrd's Mass for 4 voices.

If you feel congregation won't join in wait until its warmer and have a morning session (with free coffee, cake, etc) for congregation and choir to get together to learn new music.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
The church I visited yesterday used a setting by How.

It does have a choir bit but this can equally be sing by the congregation.

The repeated refrain 'Glory to God in the highest' sounds a bit desperate after the 4th repeat.
 

---

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
Martin How wrote that setting for a confirmation service. He figured there would be a lot of visitors unfamiliar with the setting normally used, so the idea was that it could be led by the choir with easy responses for the congregation.
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Although Merbecke is popular amongst (very) old timers, it is actually rather difficult for newcomers to sing at first / second / third hearing (if they get that far).

'Repeat after me' settings are much better in this respect, not just for the mass, but also for eg. responsorial psalms.
 

---

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:


The repeated refrain 'Glory to God in the highest' sounds a bit desperate after the 4th repeat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:


The repeated refrain 'Glory to God in the highest' sounds a bit desperate after the 4th repeat.

---

Refrain Glorias are the work of the Devil.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The Gloria in excelsis is not constructed with a recurring antiphon; it's a hymn of adoration with a mini-litany in the middle. The refrain Gloria thus results in deformation of the text.

And quite often, the refrains are the only thing the laity are allowed to sing, taking the greater part of this hymn of praise out of their mouths entirely.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Our parish church choir would be quite happy for the congregation to join in with anything they wanted.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The Gloria in excelsis is not constructed with a recurring antiphon; it's a hymn of adoration with a mini-litany in the middle. The refrain Gloria thus results in deformation of the text.

And quite often, the refrains are the only thing the laity are allowed to sing, taking the greater part of this hymn of praise out of their mouths entirely.

---

quote:

---

'only the dear late Father Chantry-Pigg and I knew this, and now I alone am left to ensure the maintenance of the true faith against the barbarians'

---

 

---

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
Well, of course the faith doesn't stand or fall depending on what sort of Gloria setting is used.

I'm not going to apologize, however, for disliking refrain Glorias. They're dumb and patronizing.
 

---

Posted by Saviour Tortoise (# 4660) on :
 
After 18 years as Director of Music at my church (CofE CW Order 1 - good choir) I'm coming to the conclusion that there simply isn't a completely satisfactory answer to this conundrum.

We're currently using Macmillan's "Galloway Mass" (complete with refrain Gloria so detested by Fr Weber, above ). Before that we tried the Nardone "Mass of St Cedd" for a bit. Before that Peter Aston, Anthony Greening and Alan Wilson. In my youth I sang the Shephard "Addington" and Rutter. I've researched loads more.

It's very difficult to find something musically satisfying for the choir, enjoyable for the regular congregation, accessible to visitors, not cheesy, not boring, etc. etc. (add your own criteria here.) Plus, people's tastes are legitimately different. So whatever you pick, some people won't like it much, and they'll be stuck with it every week. (Unless you alternate between two.)

Every choice is compromised. The Macmillan we're using at the moment is pretty good, I think. Macmillan is a "Proper Serious Composer", and a man of deep faith, and he seems very aware of all of the above issues and tries to hold them in tension, but the whole project of trying to write a congregational setting of the Mass is, I think, a bit of a compromise.

We break it up a bit by using a choir-only setting of the Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei every other week.
 

---

© Ship of Fools 2016


UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0