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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Congregational Settings of the Eucharist
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
We use Common Worship (modern language) at our worship, and for some time we have used the music of Gregory Murray.
Now we'd like a change.
What we'd like is:
a) Nothing complicated
b) Using Common Worship texts
c) Music readily available, and preferably in a version too which could be given to some in the congregation.
We don't have a choir as such, but do have some singers who will lead worship from the front sometimes.
Thoughts and ideas very welcome, please.
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
We tend to rotate our settings by season, and include DGM (which everyone seems to love!).
The other ones we use are
- Thorne, Mass of St Thomas,
- Paul Inwood (The Gathering Mass, I think)
- Lourdes Gloria
- Peter Jones Coventry setting
- Missa de Angelis Kyrie
All easy to sing and popular
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
The most commonly used in Australia is the Dudman setting which congregations find simple. However,our choir gets a litle bored with it because it isn't challenging enough.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
We use the Dudman for Sung Eucharists - as bib says, it is widely used in Aust, and is easy for a congregation. I'd be surprised if it did not fit your Common Worship, most of the text would be identical.
For Choral Eucharists, we used use an English Folk Mass - fairly sure that this is the one at the back for NEH. Again, it is easy for the congregation. I am not sure where such sections as the Gospel Acclamation, Eucharistic Acclamation and Doxology come from. For some time now, we have been using another English setting, very logical, and easy for the congregation but with a bit more interest for the choir than the Dudman.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Go to the RSCM (Royal School of Church Music) for advice.
If nothing else, they sell copies of Merbecke and the Missa de Angelis which have been adapted to the words in Common Worship.
They publish at least a dozen different settings - there's a newish one by Peter Nardone (Mass of St Cedd) and others that are tuneful (Philip Godfrey Mass of St James seems to be well received).
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Healey Willan.
YMMV but our experience is not for congregational singing - to which our congregation would add listening.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Go to the RSCM (Royal School of Church Music) for advice.
If nothing else, they sell copies of Merbecke and the Missa de Angelis which have been adapted to the words in Common Worship.
They publish at least a dozen different settings - there's a newish one by Peter Nardone (Mass of St Cedd) and others that are tuneful (Philip Godfrey Mass of St James seems to be well received).
Thanks for this l'organist. I'm sure that could well be a good way to do it.
However, I was wondering what 'grassroots' opinions are - what works in your church, kind of thing. (rather like what GeeD just posted).
Anyone use Missa da Angelis or Merbecke for their congregations week on week?
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
I am sure that some local musicians have composed some really good work for their own congregations. As curiosity ... suggests.
But! We have people come and go at our church and don't want to do that but rather use something people arriving may have heard of before or people going may find elsewhere. Also a setting thats bright and encouraging.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Healey Willan.
YMMV but our experience is not for congregational singing - to which our congregation would add listening.
Indeed, YMMV.
Willan is the default mass setting when there is no choir at Our Lady of Hardwork.
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
Thanks - Could I ask -
Is it a good, and easy to learn, setting, silent acolyte?
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Healey Willan.
AKA the Second Communion Service in the Hymnal 1940? In regular use at my shack (1928 words, of course ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ).
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Depends on the service:
For family service we use something called The Wiltshire Service by Richard Shephard (sometimes using an alternative Gloria); family service uses simplified confession, eucharistic prayer as recommended for a liturgy with significant number of children, etc.
The rest of the time the routine is:
Advent - Parish Mass Dom Gregory Murray
Christmas-Epiphany & Easter - Harold Darke in F
Lent - Addington Service/ Byrd Mass for 4 voices
Ordinary Time - Grayston Ives for Rite A of the ASB/ Wiltshire Service
Where it is an either or the deciding factors are (a) other service music and (b) choir numbers.
But there are plenty of churches out there who do the Murray week in, week out - I can even think of one that does the same Alleluia and gospel responses throughout the year - not surprising since they don't vary eucharistic prayer either.
Of course, we also have full choral Matins once a month as the main service, plus a full Evensong is now established.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
We tried the Wiltshire Setting on Sundays 1.3 and 5 for a while, but generally it was not popular. There are quite a few tricky patches for a congregation to manage. I liked the manner in which the Lord God, Lamb of God in the Gloria were thrown into the sharp contrast they are.
On those Sundays, we now use another English setting which is much more popular. It is just so easy to sing and logical as well. Sing it once and you know it. It came to us without a name.
Sundays 2 and 4 see the Dudman - again straightforward and easy for a congregation.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
Anyone use Missa da Angelis or Merbecke for their congregations week on week?
Our local Cathedral uses Merbecke (if memory serves) but that's obviously with the 1982 Scottish Liturgy rather than Common Worship. It's easy enough to pick up and they provide music for the congregation.
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
We are actually using Dudman one month and the Schubert setting the next month with quite a deal of congregational acceptance. We tried adding the Philip Aston, but the cong wasn't impressed as it is a bit more difficult. Some years ago we were also using the Salisbury quite happily, but it hasn't been looked at recently.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
The Lincoln Setting by Malcolm Archer
I have never sung it but I heard it on Radio 4 one Sunday morning and liked it sufficiently to look it up on line. It seems to be within the abilities of the average congregation. It sets the words of Common Worship, Order One.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Not Missa de Angelis, but Communion Service IV in the Hymnal 1940 is the Gregorian Missa cum jubilo. We use it during penitential seasons.
We have a Russian ordinary that we use for festive occasions; our default on green days is Willan.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
We tend to rotate our settings by season, and include DGM (which everyone seems to love!).
The other ones we use are
- Thorne, Mass of St Thomas,
- Paul Inwood (The Gathering Mass, I think)
- Lourdes Gloria
- Peter Jones Coventry setting
- Missa de Angelis Kyrie
All easy to sing and popular
We have used the Lourdes and Coventry Gloria in the past with no problem. I think there may be more than one Inwood setting, but we sing the Gathering Mass now (in the new translation version) with piano and/or guitar and minimal prodding necessary.
[code]
[ 26. November 2014, 20:40: Message edited by: John Holding ]
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The copy of the MacMillan Mass that I own has a Gloria - check it out with Boosey & Hawkes who publish.
Or are you thinking of the music he wrote for the papal mass?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
The St Anne's mass is lovely and is used by Westminster Cathedral at its Saturday 6pm mass. Beautiful and easy to pick up.
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
Grateful for help so far received. Thanks.
But wouldn't that St Anne Mass if used at Westminster (RC) cathedral have the RC texts which arent Common Worship?
Lugg
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
Grateful for help so far received. Thanks.
But wouldn't that St Anne Mass if used at Westminster (RC) cathedral have the RC texts which arent Common Worship?
Lugg
Our copy has the Common Worship text.
I suspect that it was originally written for the new trans. of the RCs but adapted by music sellers.
I could check the publisher and whatever else is printed on our music copies of you want.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Not Missa de Angelis, but Communion Service IV in the Hymnal 1940 is the Gregorian Missa cum jubilo. We use it during penitential seasons.
Missa Marialis: a festival service for the Holy Eucharist / adapted to the American liturgy and harmonized for accompaniment ; plainchant edited by Charles Winfred Douglas.
Douglas, Winfred.
New York: H.W. Gray Co., sole agents for Novello & Co., c1915.
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
Grateful for help so far received. Thanks.
But wouldn't that St Anne Mass if used at Westminster (RC) cathedral have the RC texts which arent Common Worship?
Lugg
I attend the Saturday 6.00 pm vigil Mass at Westminster Cathedral, engagements permitting, which is most weeks.
Their in-house booklet of the settings used, including the St. Ann's Mass, contains the RC texts as authorised a couple of years ago and which are presently in use.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
I thought that the texts would not work for Common Worship, but I'd be interested to know of publication details for the CW version you say you have seen Leo. Thanks.
So many choices, so many ideas.
I take it Gregory Murray is well used.
Which is most popular after that do you think - its just that we dont want to use a version few churches use. Our people come and go so we want something they could well find somewhere else.
lugg
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
Murray is by far the most popular congregational setting round here in North London, with the Thorne Mass of St Thomas perhaps a distant second.
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
Thanks liturgylover
This website claims the Mass of St Thomas is 'arguably' the most widely sung setting in the UK. But then the website is by the composer
Anyone else recommend this setting as a good alternative to Dom Gregory Murray
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Thorne's Mass of St. Thomas is used regularly here, too. The congregation know it and join in well.
As an alternative, for variation, our Director of Music has written his own setting - it has taken a while to catch on, but now the congregation seem to accept it almost (but not quite) as much as the Thorne.
Appleford ('Apple Pie') seems to have dropped completely out of the repertoire - it was the most popular version 20 or so years ago.
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
Thanks liturgylover
This website claims the Mass of St Thomas is 'arguably' the most widely sung setting in the UK. But then the website is by the composer
Anyone else recommend this setting as a good alternative to Dom Gregory Murray
I think it would also be interesting to know if there is any alignment between mor/catholic churchmanship and mass setting. I have always been surprised when some relatively high anglo-catholic churches use paraphrase hymns for their mass settings, and similalry the number of more moderate parishes where traditional settings seem to rule.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
My theory is that (with many exceptions, especially the obvious 'shrines' like ASMS) most anglo-catholic churches are in the backstreets* and short of resources like professional organists and good choirs. MOTR churches tend to be the parish churches of country towns and middle-class suburbs.
*Although of course ASMS is in a back street, but not a typical one.
[ 06. December 2014, 16:01: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
Regardless of musical resource they would all have some form of congregational mass setting.
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
I think thatb is a RC setting, Leo. The texts are different in the RC modern mass to those of Common Worship.
It seems from what people have kindly written that the Thorne Mass is the one to go for.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
There is a setting that Peter Hurford did for Series III which can be adapted fairly easily. Just try not to morph into Pop goes the weasel during the Gloria ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
I think thatb is a RC setting, Leo. The texts are different in the RC modern mass to those of Common Worship.
It seems from what people have kindly written that the Thorne Mass is the one to go for.
If I remember rightly (I don't have a copy to hand) the only correction you need to make to St. Anne is to turn sins into sin in the Agnus Dei.
The other texts are the ecumenical texts, which were then shared by CW and the Missal.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Of course, I forgot the bl**d**g obvious:
A Community Mass by Richard Proulx (Rite A ICET texts) has 3 versions of the Kyrie, 2 of the Agnus Dei.
Its almost endlessly flexible, with everything from unison congregational lines to quite complex harmony lines; and has also been properly scored, mainly for brass and percussion but also strings, with 5 variations, plus organ. Published by OUP who have a hire service for the orchestral parts if you don't want to buy them.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
Ah! Thats interesting l'organist. Thanks for that.
I was wondering how it - or others compares with Dom Gregory Murray. - Would it do, say as festival and Murray for Ordinary or...
What do you (kindly) suggest
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
There is a lot less of the Proulx if you just do the unison congregation part, but you can expand on it far more than the Murray.
I think it all boils down to how you want to use said setting. For my part, I wouldn't be happy with having one setting only for use every Sunday of the year - and congregations have far more capacity for learning and retaining music than some musicians give them credit.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
So given the ones we talked about l'organist (or anyone else!) how'd you divide them in the church year.
E.g. Murray for general green season...
Thank you so much
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
I have yet to see a setting of the new texts that is nearly as gracious, or gently inspired, as Willan's Missa de S. Maria Magdalena (or several other settings, for that matter). Perhaps in time... However,
Of the settings in Lift Every Voice and Sing II, my choir and I chose David Hurd's Gloria (no. 241) and Grayson Warren Brown's Sanctus (no. 255) to introduce a few years ago. They are fetchingly melodic and have worn well. I'd put them up against anything in the Hymnal 1982.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
How to divide?
Well: I'd choose something simple for Advent/Lent - say the Addington Service, or Merbecke, or similar.
For Festivals: go for it - Haydn, Mozart, Schubert if you can do it well.
Eastertide/Christmastide - go for something like Grayston Ives.
There should always be space for something simply like Byrd's Mass for 4 voices.
If you feel congregation won't join in wait until its warmer and have a morning session (with free coffee, cake, etc) for congregation and choir to get together to learn new music.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Martin How wrote that setting for a confirmation service. He figured there would be a lot of visitors unfamiliar with the setting normally used, so the idea was that it could be led by the choir with easy responses for the congregation.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Although Merbecke is popular amongst (very) old timers, it is actually rather difficult for newcomers to sing at first / second / third hearing (if they get that far).
'Repeat after me' settings are much better in this respect, not just for the mass, but also for eg. responsorial psalms.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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