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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: English Use/Prayerbook Catholic Parishes in the US
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KevinL
Apprentice
# 12481
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Posted
English Use or Prayerbook Catholic Parishes in the U.S. (hell, why don't we include Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand as well). Go!
Posts: 35 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Mar 2007
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KevinL
Apprentice
# 12481
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Posted
Thanks Prester John!
Posts: 35 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Mar 2007
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Are you referring to what is known as the Anglican Use?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Many, but not all Anglican Use RC parishes, are now part of the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter. As I understand it, Our Lady of the Atonement, San Antonio has become stranded in the Anglican Use because their high number of members who were not formerly Anglicans (rather, cradle Roman Catholics) means that they don't fit the established criterion for admission to the Ordinariate. Thus they continue as Anglican Use under the jurisdiction of the Archbishop of San Antonio. By contrast, the former Anglican Use flagship of Our Lady of Walsingham, Houston is now the flagship parish of the Ordinariate.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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KevinL
Apprentice
# 12481
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Posted
Amanda, no, but thank you for the link. I was specifically thinking of parishes that identify as English Use (so looking to Sarum more than the Tridentine form of the Mass) or as Prayerbook Catholic (prayerbook vs. missal and, well, I find this a bit harder to describe: the giveaway in my mind, though it isn't limited to prayerbook catholics and neither is it absolutely indicative, is cassocks and full anglican surplices on a celebrant).
This page claims to give a primer, but I'm not sure I agree with the definitions/examples.
LSK, that is a very interesting observation. Other than who has ordinary jurisdiction, is there significant differences between being Anglican Use under a diocesan bishop and being in the ordinariate?
Also, in regards to Prester John's post, is it the general understanding in TEC that English Use and/or Prayerbook Catholic implies at least Rite I and preferably BCP '28? Are there any that use Rite II?
Posts: 35 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Mar 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KevinL:
Amanda, no, but thank you for the link. I was specifically thinking of parishes that identify as English Use (so looking to Sarum more than the Tridentine form of the Mass) or as Prayerbook Catholic (prayerbook vs. missal and, well, I find this a bit harder to describe: the giveaway in my mind, though it isn't limited to prayerbook catholics and neither is it absolutely indicative, is cassocks and full anglican surplices on a celebrant).
I don't know what 'English Use' means in an American context, but in England I would take it as shorthand for a sort of Percy-Dearmer-influenced catholicism. That means, unadorned Prayer Book rite (1662), or by extension one of the later rites such as Common Worship (with no Popish frills); decently-furnished altar with two candles; servers in albs (probably with apparelled amices); celebrant in alb and (amply cut) chasuble. For the celebrant to wear a surplice would be a concession to a smaller or poorer parish which couldn't afford full vestments. But on other occasions than the eucharist, it would be definitely full surplices and not short cottas.
Such a tradition has been largely subsumed in the C of E by Vatican2 influenced Roman Catholicism, but its recognisable features survive in the majority of cathedrals.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KevinL:
LSK, that is a very interesting observation. Other than who has ordinary jurisdiction, is there significant differences between being Anglican Use under a diocesan bishop and being in the ordinariate?
I think the main difference is that the BCP canon is not used in the liturgy. Most Anglican Use places seem to use the Roman Canon (i.e. Eucharistic Prayer I).
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I don't know what 'English Use' means in an American context.
Certain Anglican priests converting to Catholicism were given permission to celebrate mass using a rite based on the Book of Common Prayer with "Popish frills". See this MW report.
[ 23. January 2015, 17:13: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
"Prayer Book Catholic" in Canada tends to mean something different than in England. IME, it usually describes any Anglo-Catholic parish that uses the BCP as opposed to the BAS, which was something of a fault line in the movement here. I was once at the induction of a new priest who proclaimed his pleasure to be serving in a parish of the Prayer Book Catholic tradition. The next time I visited there, the prayer book introit psalm had been replaced with a Roman-style single verse and antiphon, and the Gospel procession with proclamation to the north.
For an American example, St John's in the Village in Baltimore has a substantial exposition of what English Use means to them. In Canada, the rector emeritus of St Thomas's Huron Street in Toronto stood in that tradition, but under his successor the rite is something of a house blend and incorporates a good deal more of Ritual Notes.
PD will no doubt have something to add. On an old computer I had saved an essay by him on "Anglican Use" (as he called it in an American context), but it seems not to have survived on my hard drive ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ 23. January 2015, 21:35: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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KevinL
Apprentice
# 12481
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Posted
ldjjd, it seems to me that they would. all of this has been very interesting and edifying; my original question was for churches not in the ordinariate or under another Roman Catholic arrangement, but I have appreciated the breadth of the responses.
Posts: 35 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Mar 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Prayer Book Catholic here has much the same meaning as I gather in the US. Originally it meant 1662 BCP with very few, if any, changes or additions. It now means A Prayer Book for Australia (1995), and normally the Second Order for the Eucharist The only addition is to add the Agnus Dei, but then again almost everyone does that. For some reason, it was not included. Many A-C places will add an Angelus at the end.
There is a local variation. In a traditional low-church Sydney parish in the 50's, I grew up with a strict following of the 1662 BCP. That tradition has continued in many Sydney parishes, save that many would now use An Australian Prayer Book (1978). So we have Prayer Book Evangelicals.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KevinL:
English Use or Prayerbook Catholic Parishes in the U.S. (hell, why don't we include Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand as well). Go!
I'm wondering if St. Michael and St. George in Saint Louis might be something that would fall under this description: all three of their Sun. morning Eucharists are Rite I; Sung Decalogue on the Sundays in Lent; Litany in Procession; strong emphasis on the English cathedral tradition in their choral program.
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KevinL:
LSK, that is a very interesting observation. Other than who has ordinary jurisdiction, is there significant differences between being Anglican Use under a diocesan bishop and being in the ordinariate?
Although I see that the topic here is not Anglican patrimony in the Roman Catholic Church, to answer KevinL's question, liturgically the remaining Anglican Use parishes operating under the Special Pastoral Provision for North America promulgated by the late Pope JPII use the Book of Divine Worship, which is essentially the 1979 BCP with the exception of the Eucharistic Prayers, which are all the EPs available in the Novus Ordo Missae.
By contrast, a more traditional and conservative liturgy has been developed for the national Ordinariates, closer to 1662 or 1928, but again with the Eucharistic Prayers coming from the Novus Ordo, though I assume the language of these has been conformed to the idiom of the traditional BCP lineage, i.e. Elizabethan style formal English. The Ordinariates are also allowed use of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in Latin. I am not sure if they are authorised use of the Novus Ordo MIssae in its entirety, but I believe that in the (English) Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham, the Ordinary stated an expectation that the Ordinariate liturgy was to be used for Sundays and principal feasts/solemnities, but that the Novus Ordo could be used for weekday ferial masses. It's a strange situation in England, where the Ordinariate clergy were largely using the Novus Ordo as C of E clergy before they swum, and now are having to use a far more BCP-based Eucharistic Rite that they never used when in the C of E. However, the rite was promulgated for all the Ordinariates worldwide, and elsewhere the former Anglican clergy were using more typically Anglican liturgies, and of course the laity were worshipping with these liturgies, in contrast to the Anglo-Papalist situation in England. Also, North American Anglican Use parishes that came into the Ordinariate had, of course, been using the BCP-derived Book of Divine Worship. The latter was, in fact, initially allowed in the various Ordinariates until their new common liturgy was completed. I don't know, but I suspect quite a few Ordinariate parishes may now be using the EF Latin Mass, though this largely defeats the notion of Anglican liturgical patrimony.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
The Ordinariate Parishes are still able to celebrate the Novus Ordo Missae rite in English as well as Latin, and they can celebrate the Extrordinary Form in Latin as well. The Ordinariate Use has all kinds of optional prayers, but the basic intention is to leave the door open either to a 1662-ish celebration though with a Roman Eucharistic Prayer and certain other Roman Mass texts missing from the 1662 prayer book added in their usual places; or an English Missal-esque type Mass that adds the Extraordinary form Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and Offertory Prayers in English to the Novus Ordo Mass. The rubrics in all cases are to be Novus Ordo but done in as Tridentine a style as possible (think Brompton Oratory, but with Anglican Patrimony ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ).
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Lietuvos writes:
quote:
I don't know, but I suspect quite a few Ordinariate parishes may now be using the EF Latin Mass, though this largely defeats the notion of Anglican liturgical patrimony.
None of the Canadian congregations seem to be doing so, after a quick scan of their websites and bulletins. I have seen some Latin bloggers wishing that it be so although I am not certain why, as the EF seems to be easily found in urban areas here.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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