Ship of Fools: Ashing - thumb or finger?

Thread: Ashing - thumb or finger? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

This sounds suitably arcane for this board!

Whenever I have imposed ashes, I have done so with my thumb.

Last night, our recently priested curate used one of her fingers.

It made me think of 'the finger of God' writing in Belshazzar's feast.

Is there a 'correct' way to impose the ashes?

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

I didn't notice last night whether our priest used her thumb or finger. I did notice she'd done her nails in purple for Lent.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I use my thumb but I'm not aware of any rubric directing how it ought to be done!

Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :

I have absolutely no idea whether there is a "correct" way of doing this...but I used the index finger on my right hand yesterday. And in previous years I have used the thumb on my right hand...

Both ways gave me a very grubby fingernail...

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I didn't notice last night whether our priest used her thumb or finger. I did notice she'd done her nails in purple for Lent.

Well done her!

I had my nails done in gold for Christmas a couple of years ago. And very fetching it looked, I thought. (Although I don't think many members of the congregation had come across a bloke with gold finger nails before)

I use my thumb. It just seems awkward to use a finger.

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :

We had both. Celebrant was ashing with thumb and deacon with forefinger....

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

The Ash Wednesday liturgy of the Scottish Episcopal Church specifies, after the blessing of the ashes:

quote:
The celebrant then receives the imposition of ashes from another priest if one is present, otherwise the celebrant
imposes ashes on himself. After this the people come forward and kneel at the Altar rails. Holding the vessel
containing the ashes in his left hand, the priest dips the thumb of his right hand into the ashes and signs the forehead
of each in turn with the sign of the Cross saying...

So, in the SEC at least, using a finger would be badwrong and may possibly make St. Columba cry.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I didn't notice last night whether our priest used her thumb or finger. I did notice she'd done her nails in purple for Lent.
Well done her!

I had my nails done in gold for Christmas a couple of years ago. And very fetching it looked, I thought. (Although I don't think many members of the congregation had come across a bloke with gold finger nails before)

I use my thumb. It just seems awkward to use a finger.

Wait...is there anyone who takes this all the way and has green nail polish (a la Sally Bowles) for Sundays after Epiphany/Pentecost (Ordinary Time) and perhaps, if they are traditional catholics, even black nail polish for Good Friday? [Snigger]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I used my thumb to sign Father (and very boldly and prominently did I do it, too, to the edification of the faithful), but he ashed everybody else, and, IIRC, used his left thumb (he is left-handed)......

Ian J.

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

Those SEC rubrics are very precise compared with our RC ones, which just say:

quote:
Then the Priest places ashes on the head of all those present who come to him, and says to each one...

I've never heard of a priest ashing himself. When ashing alone, I'm used to having a laic do it.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

I find the thumb is easier to control, not to mention to clean!

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
[QUOTE]]Wait...is there anyone who takes this all the way and has green nail polish (a la Sally Bowles) for Sundays after Epiphany/Pentecost (Ordinary Time) and perhaps, if they are traditional catholics, even black nail polish for Good Friday?

In fact my rector had green on this past Sunday as well.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I didn't notice last night whether our priest used her thumb or finger. I did notice she'd done her nails in purple for Lent.
Well done her!

I had my nails done in gold for Christmas a couple of years ago. And very fetching it looked, I thought. (Although I don't think many members of the congregation had come across a bloke with gold finger nails before)

I use my thumb. It just seems awkward to use a finger.
Wait...is there anyone who takes this all the way and has green nail polish (a la Sally Bowles) for Sundays after Epiphany/Pentecost (Ordinary Time) and perhaps, if they are traditional catholics, even black nail polish for Good Friday?

I considered it. But the congregation was already starting to look at me a bit funny. (That's partly why I had to move to another part of the planet...)

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

That is why God created us created with that "opposable thumb"...

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.

What - without a mirror??

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I considered it. But the congregation was already starting to look at me a bit funny. (That's partly why I had to move to another part of the planet...)

You could always tell them that that's how they do things back where you came from - though the might not believe you.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.

And said 'Remember, thou art dust and to dust shalt thou return' to himself?

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Thumb always. Although we have had female priests, I don't remember being ashed by one (coincidence not intent). Can't say I've looked that closely at the hands of the men, but have never noticed nail varnish, or rings for that matter. Probably because, if I looked that closely while being ashed, I'd go cross-eyed.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

(Alright, now I have an image of someone using the middle finger. Probably not a good idea.)

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.

In the absence of any other priests, that's what one is supposed to do according to the rubrics of the American Missal.

So that's what I did as well.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
Those SEC rubrics are very precise compared with our RC ones

Funny how these things work out. I was just reading on Wikipedia that in the United Methodist Church, ashes are to be imposed only on the baptized.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:

quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
Those SEC rubrics are very precise compared with our RC ones
Funny how these things work out. I was just reading on Wikipedia that in the United Methodist Church, ashes are to be imposed only on the baptized.

I wonder if there is an inverse relationship between the specificity of the rubrics and the rigour with which they are enforced.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
(Alright, now I have an image of someone using the middle finger. Probably not a good idea.)

Potentially a penitential image though. Sort of a liturgical prostate check.

Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on :

Used my right thumb. Had to use my other fingers to push back hair in some cases so that I could ash forehead.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

Where was this thread earlier in the week? I'm new to this tradition, so found myself Wednesday holding the small cup of ashes asking myself precisely that question! Wish I'd thought to check the ever-helpful Ship for answers prior...

...agreed on the grubby fingernail...

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Circuit Rider: Had to use my other fingers to push back hair in some cases so that I could ash forehead.

Is the priest supposed to do that? I have rather long hair, and the few times I was ashed I pushed it back myself.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.
And said 'Remember, thou art dust and to dust shalt thou return' to himself?

Yes, indeed. Just like when he communicates, he says "The Body of Christ" to himself.

[ 21. February 2015, 03:42: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
(Alright, now I have an image of someone using the middle finger. Probably not a good idea.)
Potentially a penitential image though. Sort of a liturgical prostate check.

What a seminal thought.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
(Alright, now I have an image of someone using the middle finger. Probably not a good idea.)
Potentially a penitential image though. Sort of a liturgical prostate check.
What a seminal thought.

A phrase to frighten people with. Do you feel a sermon coming on?

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
This sounds suitably arcane for this board!

Whenever I have imposed ashes, I have done so with my thumb.

Last night, our recently priested curate used one of her fingers.

It made me think of 'the finger of God' writing in Belshazzar's feast.

Is there a 'correct' way to impose the ashes?

The custom in many anglophone countries of forming a visible cross on the forehead is just that - a popular custom. It is not presupposed by the rubrics, as far as I am aware. Therefore, if it is to be done, it is done according to whatever method is customary, I suppose.

If there's to be a discussion of what is "correct", then the point of the action is the imposition of the ashes: not the displaying of the ashes. In a number of places, it is still the custom to sprinkle the ashes on the top of the penitent's head.

A quick Google image search reveals woodcuts from missals depicting this, as well as recent popes receiving the ashes on this way.

Personally, I prefer this to a deliberately visible mark, and certainly to the adding of moisture to the ash to ensure that the mark lasts.

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

From my old blog, in more "black & white" times. Please forgive the judgemental tone.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

I ashed myself first, saying (so that the others could hear) "I am dust, and to dust I shall return." Then I ashed everyone else, baptized and unbaptized alike, using my right thumb. The UM rubric says to ash only the baptized, but I've never seen it enforced, not ever. But in effect for me it was only the baptized, since that's who turned up for the services.

I then forgot I had ashed myself, and got oily ashes all over the collar of my freshly laundered and carefully ironed surplice when I took it off. [Mad]

[ 23. February 2015, 20:07: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

We had an ecumenical ashing here, and I noted that my Colleague Of A Non-Episcopal Denomination™ ashed with the words "remember that you are but dust / and to dust you shall return / recall that grace triumphs over doubt" or somesuch. Basically it made me think that I'd been smacked on the shoelace with a wet thistle-seed and invited to sniff roses in the name of Gaia.

My mob got some traditional "turn away from sin and be faithful to Christ."

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Personally, I prefer this to a deliberately visible mark, and certainly to the adding of moisture to the ash to ensure that the mark lasts.

Or does this begin to resemble the wearing of a phylactery? You know: Matt 6:1 and all that. I wrestle with this question every year, and I note our bishop (who presided at my [his] pad this year) did in his homily, too.

Posted by Joan_of_Quark (# 9887) on :

What happens if a church/denomination practises sprinkling ashes on the head but also expects women to wear hats or veils?

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
What happens if a church/denomination practises sprinkling ashes on the head but also expects women to wear hats or veils?

I imagine the same as when women are baptised or tonsured: the head covering is removed for the action and replaced afterwards.

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Personally, I prefer this to a deliberately visible mark, and certainly to the adding of moisture to the ash to ensure that the mark lasts.
Or does this begin to resemble the wearing of a phylactery? You know: Matt 6:1 and all that. I wrestle with this question every year, and I note our bishop (who presided at my [his] pad this year) did in his homily, too.

It's certainly worth thinking about.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

I've heard others say that if we all ash together and then wipe it away as we leave (or shortly thereafter), we're not in danger of crossing Jesus' words on this. The thinking is that it's a symbol in which we all participate, no one being any better or any worse than anyone else who also participates. Then if we remove the mark after the service as we go back out into the world no one knows that we're fasting.

That's about how I feel about it, but I'm open to the idea of sprinkling ash on the head instead.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
We had an ecumenical ashing here, and I noted that my Colleague Of A Non-Episcopal Denomination™ ashed with the words "remember that you are but dust / and to dust you shall return / recall that grace triumphs over doubt" or somesuch. Basically it made me think that I'd been smacked on the shoelace with a wet thistle-seed and invited to sniff roses in the name of Gaia.

My mob got some traditional "turn away from sin and be faithful to Christ."

I thought it was the other way round - 'Remember' being the trad. words and 'repent' being fairly new.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.
And said 'Remember, thou art dust and to dust shalt thou return' to himself?
Yes, indeed. Just like when he communicates, he says "The Body of Christ" to himself.

Or "The Body of Christ, which was given for me, preserve my body and soul unto everlasting life."

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
The custom in many anglophone countries of forming a visible cross on the forehead is just that - a popular custom.

If not a cross, what symbol would be appropriate? A check mark? I can imagine the priest going down the line, thinking, "Check . . . check . . ." [Biased]

My personal feeling about going out into the world with ashes on is: It's a personal choice, but please don't go on TV with the ashes on as Bill Donohue of "The Catholic League" (TM) did on Fox News.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Slightly tangential, but does anybody know if ashes are given in any way in the diocese of Milan, since the Ambrosian rite does not observe Ash Wednesday and begins Lent on the first Sunday?

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Slightly tangential, but does anybody know if ashes are given in any way in the diocese of Milan, since the Ambrosian rite does not observe Ash Wednesday and begins Lent on the first Sunday?

I have googled la Cattedrale di Milano - so far without success. Where's Forthview? He may be your man!

Posted by TomM (# 4618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Slightly tangential, but does anybody know if ashes are given in any way in the diocese of Milan, since the Ambrosian rite does not observe Ash Wednesday and begins Lent on the first Sunday?

I'm fairly sure it doesn't occur at any point in the Ambrosian Rite. However, I believe there are a number of churches in the diocese that follow other rites - IIRC, I was told about a Dominican use church, which presumably would keep Ash Wednesday, as their rite follows the Roman Calendar in this regard.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TomM:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Slightly tangential, but does anybody know if ashes are given in any way in the diocese of Milan, since the Ambrosian rite does not observe Ash Wednesday and begins Lent on the first Sunday?
I'm fairly sure it doesn't occur at any point in the Ambrosian Rite. However, I believe there are a number of churches in the diocese that follow other rites - IIRC, I was told about a Dominican use church, which presumably would keep Ash Wednesday, as their rite follows the Roman Calendar in this regard.

According to the Italian Wiki here..., the ashing occurs on the first Sunday of Lent, or preferably the Monday after. The Lenten disciplines then begin on the following Friday, oddly [Confused]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Interesting. Interesting also is the fact that Mass is not celebrated on any Friday in Lent. Would that also apply to any feast day (e.g. Annunciation) that fell on a Lenten Friday, or to a Requiem or similar?

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Interesting. Interesting also is the fact that Mass is not celebrated on any Friday in Lent. Would that also apply to any feast day (e.g. Annunciation) that fell on a Lenten Friday, or to a Requiem or similar?

Particularly interesting as it shows that some curtailment of the celebration of the Eucharist on the weekdays of Lent isn't just a Byzantine peculiarity. I've never explored other rites on this point before.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Going back to the OP and then tangenting slightly, does anyone know anything about the recent history of ashing. Leo, I suspect you might know more about this.

Ashing has become almost universal these days and seems to have become popular and asked for. It's in one of the Common Worship books though it is optional. That, though, doesn't give the answer to Leo's question because it doesn't give detailed instructions about how it is to be done. But I don't recall it until about 20-25 years ago. Normal practice before then was simply to mark Ash Wednesday with a Communion Service, often in the evening for the benefit of those at work.

Have Catholics of the Roman variety always had this, or did it come in with Vatican II? Did any Anglo-Catholics have it, and if so what was it's legal status?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Going back to the OP and then tangenting slightly, does anyone know anything about the recent history of ashing. Leo, I suspect you might know more about this.

Ashing has become almost universal these days and seems to have become popular and asked for. It's in one of the Common Worship books though it is optional. That, though, doesn't give the answer to Leo's question because it doesn't give detailed instructions about how it is to be done. But I don't recall it until about 20-25 years ago. Normal practice before then was simply to mark Ash Wednesday with a Communion Service, often in the evening for the benefit of those at work.

Have Catholics of the Roman variety always had this, or did it come in with Vatican II? Did any Anglo-Catholics have it, and if so what was it's legal status?

I don't know much about RC practice but my C of E experience of about 50 years chimes in with yours. My 'Prayer Book catholic' church in the 1960s merely had a Sung Eucharist on Ash Wednesday - no ashing.

Ashing seemed to be the preserve of 'very high' churches and I first experienced it in 1969 at a 6.30 am High mass in Christ the Savior Ealing.

Now some evangelicals do it and there is a rite for it in the Methodist book.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Have just got back from the Middle East where I did not follow Ship of Fools.
As has been said Lent in the Ambrosian rite begins on the First Sunday of Lent and ashes are imposed either on the Sunday or it is apparently more correct liturgically according to the rite to have them imposed on the Monday following. The Sunday in Lent always has at least a semi festive character. Ashes may be placed on the forehead or sprinkled on the crown of the head

This is a custom in the RC church going back well over 1000 years.Before Vatican 2 and the liturgical changes the ashes would be imposed either at the morning Masses or at the 'popular' devotions like Stations of the Cross in the evening.The standard words were 'Memento,homo,quia pulvis es et in pulverem reverteris' Remember,man,that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return. In the last 25 years these are often changed to' Repent/Turn away from sin and believe the Gospel'

Not all churches within the area of the archdiocese of Milan follow the Ambrosian rite.It can/may be followed,however throughout the ecclesiastical province of Milan and up to the Ticino/Tessin area of Switzerland.

On Ash Wednesday I was in Abu Dhabi where there is basically one Catholic church for the 90000 Catholics there.After three Masses in the morning there were about 1500 people at the first of the eight Masses to be celebrated in the evening.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
leo: Now some evangelicals do it and there is a rite for it in the Methodist book.

I was ashed in a Baptist church once.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

The RC practice of ashing on the first day of Lent dates back to the late 10th century. I'm pretty sure it was never interrupted (the BCP retained the name for the day, but not the practice of imposition).

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

I had hoped to get to the Maronite cathedral to experience "Ash Monday" this year, but I've been buried under assignments.

As others have noted, Ash Wednesday has long been a fixed part of the Roman Rite. I too am curious about what Anglican churches did on the day - and even more so in Holy Week - before the new generation of liturgical books sanctioned it.

PD has reported that in the days before the ASB, many relatively moderate parishes borrowed from the English Missal when they would never use it entire. (I hoped to link to, but can't find, his post outlining the "spectrum" of ways it could be used, from essentially filling in the Sanctus and Agnus Dei at one end, to replicating the entire Roman Rite in the vernacular at the other).

I would suspect - but would welcome corroboration - that Ash Wednesday would have been one of those occasions when parishes not otherwise inclined to look to Rome would have had to go mining from the missal.

Nowadays, of course, it's hardly a party marker. In childhood, I attended an Ash Wednesday service at the local United church. We were invited to write down some wrong we wished to see righted in the world (starving African children and the like) on little slips that were gathered and burned for the imposition of Ashes (which my mother had forbade me, being RC, to receive there).

The Anglican Catholic Church of Canada, which reprints monographs of the old Cowley press at Bracebridge, publishes a book for "The Liturgy of Holy Week" supplementary to the prayer book of Elizabeth II, which I have seen used in A-C parishes which follow that book exclusively, but nothing for Ash Wednesday. I couldn't tell you the provenance of the rite (pdf) we use, but it comes at the very end of Mass after communion.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

The brief blurb on the SEC website indicates that the existing liturgy, dated 1967, replaces an older liturgy from 20 years before that had apparently become "out of date", presumably (but not explicitly stated) due to Vatican II. My impression, judging from the early authorisation of ashing and the appearance of many piskie churches, is that wee piskies have been a bit more Catholic that the average English Anglican for quite some time.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Slightly tangential, but does anybody know if ashes are given in any way in the diocese of Milan, since the Ambrosian rite does not observe Ash Wednesday and begins Lent on the first Sunday?
I have googled la Cattedrale di Milano - so far without success. Where's Forthview? He may be your man!

As you see from subsequent posts - there you have it folks!

My signature varies as and when, but my present signature is the two Italian formulae for the imposition of ashes. I have just made a small correction to make it coincide with the official text. In our language quoted from memory - Remember you are dust and to dust you shall return. Repent and believe in the Gospel.

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