Ship of Fools: To Vest or Not to Vest

Thread: To Vest or Not to Vest Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

My community has an ecumenical sunrise service on Easter each year that rotates between the three participating churches. This year it is our turn to host, and the Church of God preacher is preaching. However, my church is in charge of the service and music.

I want to vest as normal. It's a service at our church and that's how we roll. However, no one else will be vested, except that the acolytes will vest if I do. Should I, since it's at our place and the host church designs and leads all the service except the sermon? Or should I not since the other pastor(s) won't be?

Vesting the visitors isn't an option, since I own my own vestments and the church has only a few small ones for the kids who are acolytes.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

Since vesting is what you do at your church, go ahead and do it. Maybe communicate with the other pastors beforehand to let them know what you're planning. Who knows--maybe they have Geneva gowns and surplices gathering dust in a closet somewhere. [Smile]

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :

We always vest when hosting ecumenical events and leave it to the others to choose what they do- more often than not its a mixture some vested in cassock/Geneva gown and some in just a suit and tie

Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :

I cannot imagine that the other clergy will somehow take offense, or see vesting as a boast that would create unnecessary tension. In fact, I do not recall any ecumenical events I have ever attended where the clergy did not dress in their usual attire. Besides, part of the fun of ecumenical gatherings is satisfying curiosity about different traditions.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

We have had a series of ecumenical services on the Lenten Tuesdays. The practice is that clergy wear what they would wear at their own church, and that the host church provides the service (sermon by someone from one of the other churches).

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
We have had a series of ecumenical services on the Lenten Tuesdays. The practice is that clergy wear what they would wear at their own church

That's always been my experience as well. If you're hosting, you do what you normally do - whether that be a full set of robes or jeans and T shirt - but you allow all visiting ministers to "do their own thing" as well. It's usually educational for all concerned!

(The only time we didn't follow this principle, we spent ages discussing exactly WHAT people should wear. As the venue was the local RC shack, the more evangelical ministers found themselves being pressured into robing. One dug his heels in and refused and decided to spend the service sitting with the congregation, whilst the rest of us were seated at the front. We then spent more time than necessary afterwards, trying to explain why he hadn't been sitting with us. It was a god-awful mess. Never again!)

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

I would always vest at an ecumenical service my church was hosting. It's not as if the minister at the local Gospel Hall would turn out in Cassock, Cope and Stole to make me feel at home if was being held at his gaff, is it?

Personally, I think that ecumenical services are, generally, pretty rubbish and mostly serve to suck the life blood out of the churches which contribute to them by producing bland, lowest common denominator rubbish which is supported by enough people, three times a year to make them viable, but which do nothing for the life of the Church or churches. This might change if the local traditionalist Catholic told them that it was important that they went to the local free-flowing praise service at the Baptist Church and tried to work out which bits weren't their cup of tea and which bits were theologically problematic and vice versa. But that never happens. If we experienced one another worship we might learn to understand it, even if we didn't love it. So my advice is to frock up and not worry too much what your colleagues do.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Vest away - but keep a sense of humour about how silly we are!

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Should I, since it's at our place and the host church designs and leads all the service except the sermon? Or should I not since the other pastor(s) won't be?

Of course you should vest. Isn't the point of such gatherings that people be exposed to other traditions?

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

Then vest I shall!

Out of fairness I haven't (and wont) vest when visiting them unless specifically asked.

Thanks for the help.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Personally, I think that ecumenical services are, generally, pretty rubbish and mostly serve to suck the life blood out of the churches which contribute to them by producing bland, lowest common denominator rubbish which is supported by enough people, three times a year to make them viable, but which do nothing for the life of the Church or churches. This might change if the local traditionalist Catholic told them that it was important that they went to the local free-flowing praise service at the Baptist Church and tried to work out which bits weren't their cup of tea and which bits were theologically problematic and vice versa. But that never happens. If we experienced one another worship we might learn to understand it, even if we didn't love it.

The best ecumenical services I have been a part of have been exactly those. In a previous parish, we had a really good Churches Together group, consisting of two C of E churches, a Methodist church and an RC church. We developed the habit whereby who ever was hosting the service had the freedom to do it in their own "style". Everyone learned from one another about the similarities and differences in our worship and everyone really enjoyed the services.

Creating an artificial mish-mash from all the traditions present is just a recipe for bland, inoffensive tosh.

In another parish, one of our sister churches in the local Churches Together was Elim Pentecostal. My lot (slightly on the "high" side of middle of the road) loved going to the Elim. They had great fun with the service, secure in the knowledge that it only happened once every couple of years. "I wouldn't want this every week, vicar, but it makes a nice change, every now and then."

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

Callan's point reminds me of the Lent services of my childhood. On Wednesday nights during Lent, the Anglican, Baptist and Methodist church would join together for a service, rotating around the three venues.

At our Anglican church, they got compline. At the Methodist church, they got a typical Methodist service and at the Baptist church they got a typical Baptist service.

Before each one, the person leading would explain anything which might be unfamiliar.

I absolutely loved it as a 7 year old child! It was a peek into completely different worlds and nurtured a lifelong love of enjoying different kinds of worship.

The other stipulation was that the preacher for the evening was someone who wasn't from that church. But they preached in their usual style - hence we had full-on impassioned Welsh Baptist preaching at compline!

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Personally, I think that ecumenical services are, generally, pretty rubbish and mostly serve to suck the life blood out of the churches which contribute to them by producing bland, lowest common denominator rubbish which is supported by enough people, three times a year to make them viable, but which do nothing for the life of the Church or churches. This might change if the local traditionalist Catholic told them that it was important that they went to the local free-flowing praise service at the Baptist Church and tried to work out which bits weren't their cup of tea and which bits were theologically problematic and vice versa. But that never happens. If we experienced one another worship we might learn to understand it, even if we didn't love it. So my advice is to frock up and not worry too much what your colleagues do.

I am sorry that your experience of ecumenical services has not been good. They are hard work, as otherwise they can fall into a mess. The same with ongoing ecumenical relationships.

We have services for the Lenten Tuesday evenings, one at Pentecost and another in Advent as well as the Palm Sunday procession. The service is provided by the host church, and a visitor preaches. In effect you get each of the church's Evening Prayer with some add-ons - close to the beginning of each, representatives of each participating church light an individual candle from a large one to show our unity in Christ, for example.

I do not know the response of the other churches, but a recent survey of our congregation showed that 85% of respondents (and there was a high response rate) considered that the ecumenical relationship with our neighbours was important or very important in the life of the parish.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

You could always follow this advice on what to wear [Two face]

[ 31. March 2015, 11:11: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

All local ministers (ordained or lay) were invited to the recent licensing of the new priest-in-charge at our local charismatic-evo C of E town centre parish. The invitation made it clear that all were welcome to vest/robe according to the custom and practice of their church, which seemed to me to be a very sensible way of doing it. No-one would therefore feel pressured or out-of-place.

Alas, I was unable to attend, but I would have worn cassock, cotta, and Blue Scarf......

Ian J.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

Bless you, LeRoc, for that thread. I'm still laughing ten minutes later.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

As far as ecumenical services not being good, my only complaint is when we start tripping around in DH territory, when really there's no reason to even go there. We're gathered to celebrate the risen Christ or to say thank you to God for all his blessings, not bash some group because they believe or act differently. It's very uncomfortable. And since I feel a certain amount of responsibility for what is said from the pulpit of my pastoral charge, I get a wee bit antsy when the visiting preacher starts in on something with which I just cannot agree. If these folks want to preach this from their own pulpits, have at. Just not mine.

Posted by Teilhard (# 16342) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
My community has an ecumenical sunrise service on Easter each year that rotates between the three participating churches. This year it is our turn to host, and the Church of God preacher is preaching. However, my church is in charge of the service and music.

I want to vest as normal. It's a service at our church and that's how we roll. However, no one else will be vested, except that the acolytes will vest if I do. Should I, since it's at our place and the host church designs and leads all the service except the sermon? Or should I not since the other pastor(s) won't be?

Vesting the visitors isn't an option, since I own my own vestments and the church has only a few small ones for the kids who are acolytes.

In such a situation: vestments, yes, as per your tradition ... but perhaps toned down a slight bit, as necessary and possible ... ???

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
My community has an ecumenical sunrise service on Easter each year that rotates between the three participating churches. This year it is our turn to host, and the Church of God preacher is preaching. However, my church is in charge of the service and music.

I want to vest as normal. It's a service at our church and that's how we roll. However, no one else will be vested, except that the acolytes will vest if I do. Should I, since it's at our place and the host church designs and leads all the service except the sermon? Or should I not since the other pastor(s) won't be?

Vesting the visitors isn't an option, since I own my own vestments and the church has only a few small ones for the kids who are acolytes.

One of the Methodist Churches I serve hosted an ecumenical service for the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity. The churches in our Churches Together group range from independent charismatic evangelical through to Roman Catholic. I wore cassock and bands, which is what I would normally wear there for services of the word and it seemed perfectly appropriate.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Alas, I was unable to attend, but I would have worn cassock, cotta, and Blue Scarf......

Ian J.

Scarf with a cotta? Not a surplice?

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

If it was a con-evo place as Bishops Finger describes, I'd make a special point of wearing a cotta [Snigger]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Just so. I do possess a surplice, but the cotta is the usual attire at Our Place (for servers, and for ministers at non-Eucharistic services).

So there.

[Razz]

Ian J.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
In such a situation: vestments, yes, as per your tradition ... but perhaps toned down a slight bit, as necessary and possible ... ???

I'll resist the urge to go with chasuble and maniple, then. Actually, I was thinking choir dress, since it's not a Eucharist.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

So that'll be cassock, cotta and biretta?

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Then vest I shall!

Out of fairness I haven't (and wont) vest when visiting them unless specifically asked.

Thanks for the help.

That seems precisely the right way round to me. Your church, your service = your vesture.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
So that'll be cassock, cotta and biretta?

No, more like cassock, surplice, and scarf. Alas, I have no ecclesiastical headwear.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

There you go. Does seem a bit pricey for what it is, though, but I suppose that's Wippell's for you. I'd imagine any reasonably talented tailor might be able to run one up for you (or knit you something close enough ).

[ 31. March 2015, 22:51: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

No, no, no. If you're going to buy any ecclesial headwear it really must be a saturno, or Papal cowboy hat as it's otherwise known.

Or you could try this, which I think is called a caput casei.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

I do like to pull for the Packers...

Actually, though not a hat I could wear in a seevice, I wouldn't mind having a Parson Brown hat.

ETA: what about a fez? I could wear a fez. Fezzes are cool.

[ 01. April 2015, 00:02: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

A wee bit pricy, Albertus, but so delightfully obscure. I must have one!

[ 01. April 2015, 00:12: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Or Lock's will do you a smoking cap which could look very smart with robes- even dearer than the canterbury cap but pleasingly eccentric and you can have a burgundy one when they make you a bishop.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Canterbury caps are not worn inside - and it should be ordinary cloth (woollen) in summer, velvet in winter.

No, if our friend wishes to be properly vested, as opposed to dressed, it has to be a biretta.

Are you a Canon? If so, you can wear a mozzetta as well.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Are you a Canon? If so, you can wear a mozzetta as well.

I understand that Canons may also have a red pom-pom on their Biretta.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Are you a Canon? If so, you can wear a mozzetta as well.

Alas, no. Just a simple country parson.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Canterbury caps are not worn inside - and it should be ordinary cloth (woollen) in summer, velvet in winter.

No, if our friend wishes to be properly vested, as opposed to dressed, it has to be a biretta.

Are you a Canon? If so, you can wear a mozzetta as well.

Blessed Percy informs us that a cleric could wear a coif if they feel the cold, but I should note that an academic cap of their university would be more appropriate than a biretta, unless of course they are graduates of a European university which provides for birettas for their graduates.

But I would also challenge the supposition that Canterbury caps are only to be worn outdoors; I have seen the late +++Michael Ramsey wear a Canterbury cap indoors and his undoubted eminence creates a legitimate use, should one have been needed.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

What about if you have a Swedish or Finnish doctorate? Then you can wear one of these splendid things. Worth doing just to get one, I'd say.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
If it was a con-evo place as Bishops Finger describes, I'd make a special point of wearing a cotta

Point taken - I might even break the prejudice of a lifetime and wear a yard of lace with it.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

By all means vest. Often times in ecumenical services you will find various traditions represented in the vestments they use. Celebrate the diversity as will as the unity.

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

For many years the churches in our area of town had an ecumenical outdoor service on Palm Sunday. This included Episcopal (mine), Lutheran, RC, Methodist, Baptist, and a couple others. All the groups would process, saunter, etc. to a local playfield; clergy of each church would vest (or not) however they normally did because this service preceded all our separate Palm Sunday services. We also had banners which, when placed together, illustrated the story of Holy Week.

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