Ship of Fools: Anglican Realignment

Thread: Anglican Realignment Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=028779

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

A parish not too far from me has offered me a position for organist, or if you prefer the truth, I begged, at which I thought was your run of the mill CofE/Anglican church. I met the vicar (or pastor as he prefers) and we had a chat at Starbucks of all places, and I find out he's a member of a group that considers itself a "submerging province" of the Anglican Communion.

I also found out that this submerging province is a part of the "Anglican realignment movement" that I'm very unfamiliar with. Can someone please help me along here? I've googled and goggled but I'd like some personal input on the matter.

Thank you, in advance.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

Welllll....

The fact that he wants to be called the pastor should set off enough alarm bells.

I have never heard of a submerging province. From the term realignment, I'm guessing that he's connecting with Gafcon or whatever they're calling themselves this week. So that would be Sidney Anglicans and the Nigerian and Kenyan homophobes.

As far as I am concerned, file under "do not touch with a very long bargepole".

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

I know nothing about this group and not much about Anglicans. But what a friend whe have in Google. This web site on The submerging church may be related. The site talks about evil gay tolerant pastors and disses Rick Warren for talking about God as The compassionate and merciful one which apparently is an Islamic formulation that doesn't apply to their version of the Christian God.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Welllll....

The fact that he wants to be called the pastor should set off enough alarm bells.

I have never heard of a submerging province. From the term realignment, I'm guessing that he's connecting with Gafcon or whatever they're calling themselves this week. So that would be Sidney Anglicans and the Nigerian and Kenyan homophobes.

As far as I am concerned, file under "do not touch with a very long bargepole".

Having read some of the link Palimpsest provided (and I need a drink having done so), that's nothing to do with Sydney Anglicanism - nor, I suspect Anglicanism in either Uganda or Nigeria. In fact, it has nothing to do with any of the streams of Anglican thought. It has a lot in common with the link given on one of the DH threads to a very right wing US group.

Like Oscar the Grouch, I'd be running away from this man as fast as I could.

Posted by Cenobite (# 14853) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I know nothing about this group and not much about Anglicans. But what a friend whe have in Google. This web site on The submerging church may be related. The site talks about evil gay tolerant pastors and disses Rick Warren for talking about God as The compassionate and merciful one which apparently is an Islamic formulation that doesn't apply to their version of the Christian God.

This site makes me want to write a book, so that I can get on their list of recommended authors not to read, alongside the likes of St. Ignatius Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Avila...

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cenobite:
]This site makes me want to write a book, so that I can get on their list of recommended authors not to read, alongside the likes of St. Ignatius Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Avila...

I suspect that site is not related to the topic of the original post at all - it looks more like a site reacting to the 'emerging' church - which makes sense of the name.

This is further attested to by the other stuff on their front page - Rob Bell, The Shack etc etc

[ 30. August 2014, 09:28: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

All the references I can find for submerged in a Church of England (and in particular Church in Wales) context is to do with those churches that do not accept the ordination of women.

Retired Bishop David Thomas used the term submerged to refer for those who don't accept women's ordination being swamped by those who do. Bishop Thomas was an outspoken opponent of women's ordination.

It looks like we have a difference in the meaning depending which side of the pond you are on.

Hopefully no horses will drown mid-Atlantic.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Oscar the Grouch wrote:

quote:
The fact that he wants to be called the pastor should set off enough alarm bells.

I have never heard of a submerging province. From the term realignment, I'm guessing that he's connecting with Gafcon or whatever they're calling themselves this week.

On balance you are probably right.

Though it's worth flagging up that the use of "pastor" is not completely unheard of in catholic parishes. Rare, but I've seen it a couple of times. And the use of alternative episcopal oversight ("flying bishops") within CofE structures is sometimes regarded as part of this Anglican realignment, leads me to ask if this parish may be involved in that.

Though as I say, I think your original suggestion the most likely.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Reactionaries.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

I think the best you can do is to ask the self styled pastor what he means by submerging.

Then it is up to you whether you wish to be associated with that.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Reactionaries.

You could be right.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

No question balaam. The jargon, the evasiveness. People retreating from the [post-]modern world to golden age fearful legalism.

Nasrani too

[ 30. August 2014, 10:24: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Judging from what appears to be the location of the original poster, might Piglet be able to shed any light?

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

Even taking Canada into consideration I think it is still more likely to be an ordination of women issue, and I am aware how long Canada has had female priests. I don't think it is likely to be the US fundamentalists this time.

It is still reactionary, but a different kind of reactionary to that which Martin PCn&SB is supposing.

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
This web site on The submerging church may be related.

Ignatius Loyola is on their list of dodgy modern authors. Caramba! I think I need to lie down......

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Perhaps he meant "emerging church?" Pastor is pretty frequent in RC churches here (Canada) in the Latin dioceses, although it tends to be a party colours indication term in Anglican circles. Perhaps you could find out who the bishop is??

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Wow, their banned authors list is pretty comprehensive. Anything which categorises Pope Benedict XVI and Marcus Borg as fellow-heretics is in serious fruitcake territory.

(One wonders which of those gentlemen would be more annoyed at being bracketed together!)

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

As said above, I'd give it a wide berth. IME any cleric trying to recruit an organist is usually more concerned about the belief of the organist, not themselves, and is anxious also to check on their musical credentials.

Leaping straight into this kind of exotica would sound all of my alarm bells.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

I'm sure you're right balaam. I'm right for the wrong reason. But I'm still right. They are conservative, fundamentalist, seekers after the faith once delivered, literalists, illiberal. Me: I'm Phlebas.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I'm sure you're right balaam. I'm right for the wrong reason. But I'm still right. They are conservative, fundamentalist, seekers after the faith once delivered, literalists, illiberal. Me: I'm Phlebas.

I don't know, Martin. I'm here neither to bury them nor praise them - just to locate them on a mental map of sorts.

I imagine - but don't know - that they would be conservative in some ways. I imagine they would be seekers after the truth once delivered, or at least aspire to doing that. I doubt they are literalists or fundamentalists, at least any more than any one here is. As to being illiberal - well - as there is an undercurrent of damnation to some posts, what can I say? Maybe we should stop making windows into our own souls. People might look in.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

If he calls himself 'pastor' he's very unlikely to be conventionally FiF.

Somewhere in south London there's an evangelical/low church parish that's out of kilter with the rest of the CofE. There was a row a few years ago because it appointed a vicar or a curate who came from either South Africa or Australia whom the local diocese didn't accept as pukka. However, I don't know anything more about it. I wonder if your man is something to do with them or similar.

As for this 'Submerging Church' and its website, they look weird. Even though a lot of the names on those three lists are people I've never heard of - and I suspect most of the rest of us have never heard of either - one suspects that the only reason why any serious writer one respects isn't on the list is that in his turn, Chris Lawson - whoever he is - has never heard of him or her.

What sort of a nutter has managed to throw out Aquinas, Thomas à Kempis, Walter Hilton, the entire Desert Fathers, Esther de Waal, St Ignatius, N. T. Wright, Philip Yancey and William Law. What have they got in common? And why is Pope Benedict on his interdict but not John Paul II, Francis or Pius XII?

I think it's only fair give this pastor the benefit of the doubt, and assume he's nothing to do with them unless it turns out otherwise. He's probably not heard of them either. I'd say that being linked to them is not compatible with being vicar of a CofE parish.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If he calls himself 'pastor' he's very unlikely to be conventionally FiF.

Somewhere in south London there's an evangelical/low church parish that's out of kilter with the rest of the CofE. There was a row a few years ago because it appointed a vicar or a curate who came from either South Africa or Australia whom the local diocese didn't accept as pukka. However, I don't know anything more about it. I wonder if your man is something to do with them or similar.

As for this 'Submerging Church' and its website, they look weird. Even though a lot of the names on those three lists are people I've never heard of - and I suspect most of the rest of us have never heard of either - one suspects that the only reason why any serious writer one respects isn't on the list is that in his turn, Chris Lawson - whoever he is - has never heard of him or her.

What sort of a nutter has managed to throw out Aquinas, Thomas à Kempis, Walter Hilton, the entire Desert Fathers, Esther de Waal, St Ignatius, N. T. Wright, Philip Yancey and William Law. What have they got in common? And why is Pope Benedict on his interdict but not John Paul II, Francis or Pius XII?

I think it's only fair give this pastor the benefit of the doubt, and assume he's nothing to do with them unless it turns out otherwise. He's probably not heard of them either. I'd say that being linked to them is not compatible with being vicar of a CofE parish.

Enoch - the OP writer's location is given as Canada. I've interpreted the CofE reference - possibly wrongly - as trying to be helpful in locating churchmanship.

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

looks like a good reading list to me

Interesting that Yoga is generically forbidden, but the list is apparently based on the bible. 11th commandment? Thou shalt not practice Yoga.

I had a debate with a similar Christian some years ago, and the bottom line was that if it was not a scientifically proven form of medicine, then it was Black Majic. I'm slightly worried that the scientific secularists and the submerged church (et al) share much the same beliefs re the human body. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

The fact that the pastor wanted to meet in Starbucks should be enough to ring alarm bells.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Enoch - the OP writer's location is given as Canada. I've interpreted the CofE reference - possibly wrongly - as trying to be helpful in locating churchmanship.

Sorry. I had not picked that up. It isn't immediately ascertainable. Cameron PM's 'From' reads like Gaelic and the specific reference to CofE caused me to assume the question related to England.

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :

I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If he calls himself 'pastor' he's very unlikely to be conventionally FiF.

Agreed.

From the sparse information, my guess is a ConEvo minister (mustn't call them priests, as that's naughty), who probably hero-worships the Jensens. If I want to plug into my deep reservoir of cynical prejudice, I would guess that he never wears robes and probably not dog collars. I would also suspect that he has some (many?) fixed views on such matters as hymnody and music in church services - so any one looking to become church organist would need to be very careful that they could live with such views. Alternatively, they could follow my earlier advice.... [Biased]

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)

Who?

Never heard of the schmuck.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)

With horror.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I think the best you can do is to ask the self styled pastor what he means by submerging.

Then it is up to you whether you wish to be associated with that.

Sounds like a job for the Mystery Worshipper. [Smile]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)
Who?

Never heard of the schmuck.

Don't worry. I've never heard of him either.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Enoch - the OP writer's location is given as Canada. I've interpreted the CofE reference - possibly wrongly - as trying to be helpful in locating churchmanship.
Sorry. I had not picked that up. It isn't immediately ascertainable. Cameron PM's 'From' reads like Gaelic and the specific reference to CofE caused me to assume the question related to England.

There's a Gaelic-speaking population in Canada, though I agree it isn't obvious.

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Enoch - the OP writer's location is given as Canada. I've interpreted the CofE reference - possibly wrongly - as trying to be helpful in locating churchmanship.
Sorry. I had not picked that up. It isn't immediately ascertainable. Cameron PM's 'From' reads like Gaelic and the specific reference to CofE caused me to assume the question related to England.
There's a Gaelic-speaking population in Canada, though I agree it isn't obvious.

Well, more specifically Newfoundland. see, Newfoundlanders are Newfoundlanders, not Canadian. My grandfather would roll in his grave should I call myself Canadian. Confederation occurred in 1949, under the most suspicious auspices that even now we know the vote was totally altered.

Common language in most places outside St John's, the capital, is typical "Church of England" instead of Anglican, and "pastor" is rarely used at least in the Catholic and Anglican Churches I've been. We follow the British and Irish titleage, depending on which part of the island you're in. Rarely do we follow any Canadian customs, the only exception is the capital city St John's, where it's just forced on us [Razz]

But anyway, politics aside, he is a member of the "Anglican Church in North America" but this is a "missionary parish" so if that clears anything up, I hope it does indeed. They use the BCP only a 2011 revision, that seems to be entirely American.

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If he calls himself 'pastor' he's very unlikely to be conventionally FiF.

Somewhere in south London there's an evangelical/low church parish that's out of kilter with the rest of the CofE. There was a row a few years ago because it appointed a vicar or a curate who came from either South Africa or Australia whom the local diocese didn't accept as pukka. However, I don't know anything more about it. I wonder if your man is something to do with them or similar.

As for this 'Submerging Church' and its website, they look weird. Even though a lot of the names on those three lists are people I've never heard of - and I suspect most of the rest of us have never heard of either - one suspects that the only reason why any serious writer one respects isn't on the list is that in his turn, Chris Lawson - whoever he is - has never heard of him or her.

What sort of a nutter has managed to throw out Aquinas, Thomas à Kempis, Walter Hilton, the entire Desert Fathers, Esther de Waal, St Ignatius, N. T. Wright, Philip Yancey and William Law. What have they got in common? And why is Pope Benedict on his interdict but not John Paul II, Francis or Pius XII?

I think it's only fair give this pastor the benefit of the doubt, and assume he's nothing to do with them unless it turns out otherwise. He's probably not heard of them either. I'd say that being linked to them is not compatible with being vicar of a CofE parish.

Their website does indeed use "submerging" but it must be a typo on their part. They seem to be pretty high Church to me. But "pastor" through me off for some reason!

Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:

...he is a member of the "Anglican Church in North America"

The Anglican Church in North America is a splinter group that is not a member of the Anglican Communion (though it seems as though it would love to replace TEC in that role.) It has something over 100K members in the US and Canada.

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)
With horror.

Curious to know why- conservative evangelical..

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Enoch - the OP writer's location is given as Canada. I've interpreted the CofE reference - possibly wrongly - as trying to be helpful in locating churchmanship.
Sorry. I had not picked that up. It isn't immediately ascertainable. Cameron PM's 'From' reads like Gaelic and the specific reference to CofE caused me to assume the question related to England.
There's a Gaelic-speaking population in Canada, though I agree it isn't obvious.
Well, more specifically Newfoundland. see, Newfoundlanders are Newfoundlanders, not Canadian. My grandfather would roll in his grave should I call myself Canadian. Confederation occurred in 1949, under the most suspicious auspices that even now we know the vote was totally altered.

Common language in most places outside St John's, the capital, is typical "Church of England" instead of Anglican, and "pastor" is rarely used at least in the Catholic and Anglican Churches I've been. We follow the British and Irish titleage, depending on which part of the island you're in. Rarely do we follow any Canadian customs, the only exception is the capital city St John's, where it's just forced on us

But anyway, politics aside, he is a member of the "Anglican Church in North America" but this is a "missionary parish" so if that clears anything up, I hope it does indeed. They use the BCP only a 2011 revision, that seems to be entirely American.

Is Newfoundland part of Nova Scotia? I found out about the Gaelic-speaking population of Nova Scotia (and also its bard tradition) through Kate Beaton, an artist/webcomic creator from Halifax.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Most assuredly not part of Nova Scotia, and at a rough guess I'd say it's about 250 km away, across a rather stormy bay. Different history pre- and post-European, different climates (in Halifax it sometimes gets over 20, almost tropical by comparison) and different peoples.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Canada's teeny Gaelophone population is mainly on Cape Breton Island (once its own colony until 1820 and they're still a bit miffed about the union with Nova Scotia)-- perhaps there might be a dozen in Newfoundland. The wonderful Dictionary of Newfoundland English will give you hours of reading on the use of prepositions, as well as an extraordinary vocabulary.

As far as ACNA is concerned, I am well acquainted with it, and clerical formation is..... interesting.... Our shipmate might want to take the job, if only for material for an interesting chapter in their memoirs.

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

Newfoundland varies from each community. Some have an accent identical to that of Dorset or Devon, because that's who it was settled by. Some have an accent identical to that of Derry or Dublin, and some identical to the Orkney Islands or maybe even Aberdeen. Some a mixture of them. Mine is more Irish, by my grandmother's family came from an English settlement so imagine an Irish accent, just less rhotic. A lot of Newfoundlanders carry(ied) British citizenship, especially those born before 1949 when we were our own Dominion under the provisional or representative governments, and many still call themselves British, mostly English, and/or Irish. Newfoundland had it's own dialect of the Irish language, of which very few now speak because we were told it was incorrect (they also said the same about our culture and accent) by the Canadian government who wanted us for our fish - then after taking it and allowing foreign fishing fleets in our waters - put us into a recession. But indeed, that's a different conversation for a completely different time. If anyone wants to talk about it, shoot me a PM, I think it's interesting.

But the ACNA...you think I should take that job? I'd like to - for the very reason you stated - an interesting chapter in my memoir. I'd only ever do it out of interest, and for a nice stable job to help me get through university. The salary is quite good, and if it does anything to help glorify God at all, then it's worth doing, however how much glory He'd receive is beyond me. I'm more interested in why they felt the need to modify the Book of Common Prayer with the ESV bible, as well as remove the "thee's, thou's" etc... You'd think a splinter Anglican group would do the opposite? Also does anyone know if they ordain women or what their beliefs are regarding the nature of the Eucharist and the role of the Blessed Virgin? Perhaps I didn't look far enough on their website but I couldn't find anything really.

Posted by QuietMBR (# 8845) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:

But anyway, politics aside, he is a member of the "Anglican Church in North America" but this is a "missionary parish" so if that clears anything up, I hope it does indeed. They use the BCP only a 2011 revision, that seems to be entirely American.

Well, as someone who has experience with those in the ACNA, I'd say that MartinPC's assessment upthread is spot on.

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Canada's teeny Gaelophone population is mainly on Cape Breton Island (once its own colony until 1820 and they're still a bit miffed about the union with Nova Scotia)-- perhaps there might be a dozen in Newfoundland. The wonderful Dictionary of Newfoundland English will give you hours of reading on the use of prepositions, as well as an extraordinary vocabulary.

As far as ACNA is concerned, I am well acquainted with it, and clerical formation is..... interesting.... Our shipmate might want to take the job, if only for material for an interesting chapter in their memoirs.

And what do you mean by "interesting"? I'm curious if it's anything like the regular training that Church of England/AC of C priest would have? Or is it something completely out there.

The "pastor" I spoke with went to something or some place called Nashotah House or Natoshah House or something or other what not?

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)
With horror.
Curious to know why- conservative evangelical..

I have to be careful here... as a lot of it kind of deals with several different Dead Horse issues.

I also don't want to annoy the hosts by posting ten billion links.

The short answer is that John MacArthur believes the Earth is six thousand years old, has called Roman Catholicism the "Kingdom of Satan," claims that psychology "is based on godless assumptions and evolutionary foundations," and "is no more a science than the atheistic evolutionary theory upon which it is based."

He has advised parents with gay children to "alienate" them, and to "isolate them; you don't have a meal with them; you separate yourself from them. You turn them over to Satan, as it were as scripture says."

His statements on the environment and climate change and such matters are basically nuts and disturbing:

"...biblical truth tells us the earth exists for man. That’s why God created it and that’s why He created it the way He created it. It is God’s responsibility to preserve it, not ours. Our responsibility is to exercise a good and reasonable stewardship which I think through the centuries man has done so that we can extract out of it everything that God has put into it for our benefit."

"The political agenda against business, against industry, against male-dominated enterprises born out of sometimes naturalism, sometimes atheism, sometimes I think even Feminism, that should never be a bandwagon that Christians get on."

And so on and so on and, well, just Google him. There's a lot of stuff out there.

quote:
Pastor John MacArthur, who before Election Day warned that the Democrats are an “anti-God party” that has “made the sins of Romans 1 their agenda,” delivered a post-election sermon in which he declared that President Obama himself is a judgment of God.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
*snip* As far as ACNA is concerned, I am well acquainted with it, and clerical formation is..... interesting.... Our shipmate might want to take the job, if only for material for an interesting chapter in their memoirs.
And what do you mean by "interesting"? I'm curious if it's anything like the regular training that Church of England/AC of C priest would have? Or is it something completely out there.

The "pastor" I spoke with went to something or some place called Nashotah House or Natoshah House or something or other what not?

It is quite a hodgepodge. If your cleric has been at Nashotah, he is clearly in the first rank as far as training goes, as are those who went to the Trinity School of Ministry in Pennsylvania. A number of the ACCoC exiles have respectable MDivs from the more serious universities but many of the newbies have just been doing divinity light courses, some in the form of Anglican tracks at evangelical seminaries, and some in local formation. This latter group can be uneven and I think it safe to say that few of those in this category could construe their gospel or hold a sustained intelligent conversation about (the other) Augustine.

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)
With horror.
Curious to know why- conservative evangelical..
I have to be careful here... as a lot of it kind of deals with several different Dead Horse issues.

I also don't want to annoy the hosts by posting ten billion links.

The short answer is that John MacArthur believes the Earth is six thousand years old, has called Roman Catholicism the "Kingdom of Satan," claims that psychology "is based on godless assumptions and evolutionary foundations," and "is no more a science than the atheistic evolutionary theory upon which it is based."

He has advised parents with gay children to "alienate" them, and to "isolate them; you don't have a meal with them; you separate yourself from them. You turn them over to Satan, as it were as scripture says."

His statements on the environment and climate change and such matters are basically nuts and disturbing:

"...biblical truth tells us the earth exists for man. That’s why God created it and that’s why He created it the way He created it. It is God’s responsibility to preserve it, not ours. Our responsibility is to exercise a good and reasonable stewardship which I think through the centuries man has done so that we can extract out of it everything that God has put into it for our benefit."

"The political agenda against business, against industry, against male-dominated enterprises born out of sometimes naturalism, sometimes atheism, sometimes I think even Feminism, that should never be a bandwagon that Christians get on."

And so on and so on and, well, just Google him. There's a lot of stuff out there.

quote:
Pastor John MacArthur, who before Election Day warned that the Democrats are an “anti-God party” that has “made the sins of Romans 1 their agenda,” delivered a post-election sermon in which he declared that President Obama himself is a judgment of God.

Well - Cultural Marxism HAS failed - as can be seen in Rotherham...

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Well - Cultural Marxism HAS failed - as can be seen in Rotherham...

I'm deeply out of sympathy with Marxism, but that notwithstanding, and horrible though the events in Rotherham have been, unless there's something I'm missing, that has a fair claim to be the non sequitur of the century.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Those that cry 'cultural Marxism!!!!!' understand neither culture nor Marxism.

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
*snip* As far as ACNA is concerned, I am well acquainted with it, and clerical formation is..... interesting.... Our shipmate might want to take the job, if only for material for an interesting chapter in their memoirs.
And what do you mean by "interesting"? I'm curious if it's anything like the regular training that Church of England/AC of C priest would have? Or is it something completely out there.

The "pastor" I spoke with went to something or some place called Nashotah House or Natoshah House or something or other what not?
It is quite a hodgepodge. If your cleric has been at Nashotah, he is clearly in the first rank as far as training goes, as are those who went to the Trinity School of Ministry in Pennsylvania. A number of the ACCoC exiles have respectable MDivs from the more serious universities but many of the newbies have just been doing divinity light courses, some in the form of Anglican tracks at evangelical seminaries, and some in local formation. This latter group can be uneven and I think it safe to say that few of those in this category could construe their gospel or hold a sustained intelligent conversation about (the other) Augustine.

I see. I understand as well. I went to their Eucharist this morning, and I must say it was very well done. The vicar gave an in-depth sermon on the first book of Peter, and he elaborated the trust we are to place and God - and the "do we give or just take?" in regards to our relationship with God. He seems to be quite an intellectual man, and he also went to University and has a Masters in something.

His parishioners were extremely nice, and they were excited to have a new organist however I'm unsure if I have the job or no. I'll keep ye updated.

I found it almost identical to the run-of-the-mill Anglican parish, just with better music and a more willing participation, however that doesn't mean anything in regards to how valid or licit their teachings and entire movement is. They're the last thing from liberal, but they're not exactly anglo Catholic either, however the vestments appeared so.

I'm going to be meeting the "pastor" again for a cuppa, so I'll ask him some questions then about the beliefs of the ACNA. I'd like to point out that I won't be joining it, no, I'm happy where I am, but this is just for the job portion and my love of music. As you said, it'd be a good chapter in my memoir.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Canada's teeny Gaelophone population is mainly on Cape Breton Island (once its own colony until 1820 and they're still a bit miffed about the union with Nova Scotia)-- perhaps there might be a dozen in Newfoundland.

Yep, though apparently there were about 50 in Eastern Ontario at the last census. Newfoundland Irish (similar to Munster dialect, if Wikipedia be believed) seems to have hobbled on till the early 20th century.

While ACNA itself is something of a rainbow coalition, almost all of the Canadian parishes are affiliated with the "Network", i.e. the Argentine mission to heterosexuals. (There is a single Reformed Episcopal church left in Hamilton and a few churches, mostly out west, are affiliated with the Canadian version of AMiA). Its first bishop was an Anglo-Catholic from Newfoundland. There are two ACNA parishes in Newfoundland: both are in town and both are affiliated with the Network. Bishop Harvey, their retired moderator is an honorary assistant at one.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Those that cry 'cultural Marxism!!!!!' understand neither culture nor Marxism.

Very true.

Cameron PM - keep us posted!

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LQ:

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Canada's teeny Gaelophone population is mainly on Cape Breton Island (once its own colony until 1820 and they're still a bit miffed about the union with Nova Scotia)-- perhaps there might be a dozen in Newfoundland.
Yep, though apparently there were about 50 in Eastern Ontario at the last census. Newfoundland Irish (similar to Munster dialect, if Wikipedia be believed) seems to have hobbled on till the early 20th century.

While ACNA itself is something of a rainbow coalition, almost all of the Canadian parishes are affiliated with the "Network", i.e. the Argentine mission to heterosexuals. (There is a single Reformed Episcopal church left in Hamilton and a few churches, mostly out west, are affiliated with the Canadian version of AMiA). Its first bishop was an Anglo-Catholic from Newfoundland. There are two ACNA parishes in Newfoundland: both are in town and both are affiliated with the Network. Bishop Harvey, their retired moderator is an honorary assistant at one.

I shall henceforth think of ACNA as a rainbow coalition, thanks to LQ. Gaelically tangential, Mass was last said in Scots Gaelic at a requiem in Glengarry in 1993 (great-uncle of a former classmate) but I believe that there is still a retired minister of the PCC who can preach in the language. The Glengarry gaeltacht was extremely influential for many years and has taken two centuries to fade to an honourable end.

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:
Originally posted by LQ:

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Canada's teeny Gaelophone population is mainly on Cape Breton Island (once its own colony until 1820 and they're still a bit miffed about the union with Nova Scotia)-- perhaps there might be a dozen in Newfoundland.
Yep, though apparently there were about 50 in Eastern Ontario at the last census. Newfoundland Irish (similar to Munster dialect, if Wikipedia be believed) seems to have hobbled on till the early 20th century.

While ACNA itself is something of a rainbow coalition, almost all of the Canadian parishes are affiliated with the "Network", i.e. the Argentine mission to heterosexuals. (There is a single Reformed Episcopal church left in Hamilton and a few churches, mostly out west, are affiliated with the Canadian version of AMiA). Its first bishop was an Anglo-Catholic from Newfoundland. There are two ACNA parishes in Newfoundland: both are in town and both are affiliated with the Network. Bishop Harvey, their retired moderator is an honorary assistant at one.
I shall henceforth think of ACNA as a rainbow coalition, thanks to LQ. Gaelically tangential, Mass was last said in Scots Gaelic at a requiem in Glengarry in 1993 (great-uncle of a former classmate) but I believe that there is still a retired minister of the PCC who can preach in the language. The Glengarry gaeltacht was extremely influential for many years and has taken two centuries to fade to an honourable end.

The first missionary priests to Newfoundland, who came over with the Irish immigrants themselves - would offer a homily and gospel in Irish for their congregations, and the priests sent over right up until the late nineteenth century were told that Irish was a great asset. Unfortunately, the last native speaker died....five or six years ago? Though the university has got a great archive (if you will, I'm not sure if that's the correct word) of the language. If you're ever interested, you can contact them and I'm sure they'd send along some examples or information. They'd know three hundred percent more than I would [Razz]

So I guess the two congregations here are of the anglo-Catholic colour in that rainbow! Today I saw an ad orientum service, with beautifully made vestments. The music seemed to follow a pattern - traditional, contemporary, traditional, contemporary. I prefer traditional, but the contemporary really wasn't that bad (better than I'm used to). No hymnbooks, but the organist was using the Book of Common Praise and I think the New English Hymnal or New English Praise, I couldn't make it out. Today was his last Eucharist, so I'll be the one to (hopefully) take over musically.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Well - Cultural Marxism HAS failed - as can be seen in Rotherham...

I have no idea what that means... or how it connects to MacArthur. [Confused]

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
But anyway, politics aside, he is a member of the "Anglican Church in North America" but this is a "missionary parish" so if that clears anything up, I hope it does indeed. They use the BCP only a 2011 revision, that seems to be entirely American.

ACNA mostly consists of ECUSA churches that have left over Dead Horse issues in the past 5-10 years.

One of the oldest Episcopal congregations in the US had a bitter split and lawsuit - Falls Church, VA - because most of the members quit to join ACNA and wanted to take the building with them. But the courts have ruled the ECUSA owns it, not the members. I believe the splinter group was at least until recently meeting in a local school.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

Well, sure, in the States, but obviously most of the ones up here aren't former ECUSA parishes. At least one of the constituents of ACNA (viz. the Reformed Episcopalians) has had a Canadian edition of the BCP - although St George's in Hamilton simply uses the same prayer book of Elizabeth II that they did in their ACoC days - so it surprises me somewhat if the new one is strictly American.

[ 01. September 2014, 12:01: Message edited by: LQ ]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

For my own reasons, I don't spend much time checking out ANiC churches, but I was under the impression that most of them used the 1959/1962 ACoC BCP, although one of the two Ottawa congregations uses a version of the Kenyan liturgy (as some of the clergy involved feel that it is a purer reformed liturgy).

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Well, sure, in the States, but obviously most of the ones up here aren't former ECUSA parishes.

Even including the Canadian members I think it's still correct to say ACNA is majority former ECUSA churches, with Reformed Episcopal Churches making up the next largest subset.

I only raised this as REC at least in the US left ECUSA much earlier over OOW (which I won't get into here) while the more recent surge was over a different DH issue. As far as I'm aware OOW is allowed in ACNA, at least at priest level.

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

AFAIK, the Anglican Network in Canada (Canada's breakaway group over sexuality) consists of about 75 parishes and has a dual affiliation with the ANCA and the Province of the Southern Cone.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

seekingsister wrote -

quote:
I only raised this as REC at least in the US left ECUSA much earlier over OOW (which I won't get into here) while the more recent surge was over a different DH issue. As far as I'm aware OOW is allowed in ACNA, at least at priest level.

Are you perhaps thinking of another strand? REC left TEC (or whatever it was called back then) in the 1870's, long before OOW.

I find it somewhat confusing too, but remember that one...

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

Yes, REC was formed in opposition to the growing influence of the Oxford Movement in the 1870s.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
seekingsister wrote -
quote:
I only raised this as REC at least in the US left ECUSA much earlier over OOW (which I won't get into here) while the more recent surge was over a different DH issue. As far as I'm aware OOW is allowed in ACNA, at least at priest level.
Are you perhaps thinking of another strand? REC left TEC (or whatever it was called back then) in the 1870's, long before OOW.

I find it somewhat confusing too, but remember that one...

EEK - my mistake. And a bad one as where I'm from (NJ) the only ACNA presence is via the REC which has a lot of parishes in the Northeast.

But from what I remember (have a relative who is ECUSA in the diocese where the Falls Church debacle happened) the momentum for ACNA came a handful of ECUSA dioceses that left to start ACNA en masse, and partnered with the smaller Anglican breakwaway groups in the US and Canada to give it legs.

Some of the parishes that have joined in recent years are OK with OOW but the marriage DH is where they are setting the line it seems.

This is a long way of my trying to say that in my understanding ACNA's primary identity is based on opposition to ECUSA (and its Canadian counterpart) views on one major issue. Whereas REC existed as a breakaway group long before this and probably has its own reasons for joining.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

Anyone else know of the Anglican Church in America? That's the one I know more than ACNA. A (sadly former) friend of mine left TEC for ACA and became a priest, and then he and his parish joined the Roman Catholic Church, but apparently not all of ACA did this.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
For my own reasons, I don't spend much time checking out ANiC churches, but I was under the impression that most of them used the 1959/1962 ACoC BCP

The one in Toronto looks awfully happy-clappy, but I wouldn't be surprised if they used both BCP and BAS to some extent. I was there when a former pastor of theirs was ordained by +Ralph Niagara. I think he spent all of about five minutes as a priest in the ACoC.

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Anyone else know of the Anglican Church in America? That's the one I know more than ACNA. A (sadly former) friend of mine left TEC for ACA and became a priest, and then he and his parish joined the Roman Catholic Church, but apparently not all of ACA did this.

Yes, the ACA was a product of the "old" ACNA which emerged over the ordination of women, and it partially entered the ordinariate with not a little acrimony (including an unholy row at St Mary of the Angels in Hollywood). Its Canadian referent is the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada, whose former Ottawa pro-cathedral I have visited. One of their prelates wrote a rather waspish op-ed in the National Post ribbing the "new" ACNA for buying into a "unisex" sacramental theology so far as the priesthood goes and then trying to close the barn door behind the horse with marriage.

The ACCC was basically hollowed out geographically by the ordinariate Deanery of St John Baptist, with the Central Canadians going to Rome and the coasts staying put. (There is a single congregation in Montréal, but they sold their building some years back, which became a queer punk house - to my considerable satisfaction - and later, I'm told, burned down. They now meet in a retirement home in NDG and even the priest who had founded it began worshipping at St John the Evangelist again, and was buried there).

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

As an interesting side note, my first Episcopal parish church was Redeemer in Sarasota, Florida, back circa 1985-86, whose rector was Fr. Jack Iker. Who is now breakway Anglican Bishop Jack Iker. Yes, that guy. Ah, I remember the wee "Forward in Faith: A Voice of Sanity in the Episcopal Church" pamphlets back when it was just starting out...

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

This is a link to the website for their new 2011 Book of Common Prayer: here.

There's a section there alongside their prayer for the president, to include a prayer for the Queen at Canadian parishes. However, it uses American spelling.

My opinion is that it's just a waste. They could've easily used Common Worship (which this vicar is familiar with), although the form is different. When I was at the service, it was like sitting through one of the various liturgies included in the old Alternative Service book of the Church of England or the Canadian BAS.

I've only ever been to the services contained in the 1662 and Canadian BCP 1962, so maybe if I got used to it I'd be more accepting of it.

They projected the words and hymns above the altar. It was a big distraction. The priest didn't use an altar-book either, just photocopied versions of a collection of power-point slides. Interesting, nothing wrong with it, just different.

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

Today I attended another of their Sunday Morning services. This time it was a Morning Prayer/Eucharist combination. They chanted the psalm, and after squawking their way through that, proceeded to sit down and stand to recite the Te Deum, in English, in their modernised form.

I met the associate-vicar, a very nice and polite and down-to-earth man. He seemed to be standard-fare high end of the broad Church. They had the bishop in for to say Morning prayer and the Eucharist.

Afterwards the congregation gave me a few hugs, right touchy feely, made me feel welcome.

After talking to the "pastor" for a while, it appears he's almost like a hybrid of the three church polities. He uses Catholic vestments, but his theology is both low and high on certain matters, and he refers to Catholics as "Romanists" or "papists" so I don't know what to make of that. He's a nice fella though.

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
Today I attended another of their Sunday Morning services. This time it was a Morning Prayer/Eucharist combination. They chanted the psalm, and after squawking their way through that, proceeded to sit down and stand to recite the Te Deum, in English, in their modernised form.

I met the associate-vicar, a very nice and polite and down-to-earth man. He seemed to be standard-fare high end of the broad Church. They had the bishop in for to say Morning prayer and the Eucharist.

Afterwards the congregation gave me a few hugs, right touchy feely, made me feel welcome.

After talking to the "pastor" for a while, it appears he's almost like a hybrid of the three church polities. He uses Catholic vestments, but his theology is both low and high on certain matters, and he refers to Catholics as "Romanists" or "papists" so I don't know what to make of that. He's a nice fella though.

I'm not sure what their policy is on homosexuality. They don't allow same-sex marriage, obviously, as the Network doesn't, but I'm not sure about their personal take.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Which is the crowd that PD (anyone heard from him lately, BTW?) is/ was with? He was an interesting mix of high and low churchmanship.

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

Another update.

Went to their first choir practise. * was told they used "standard fare" hymn tunes by the vicar, and now the word is forever tainted because the man has shown to be one of these "upper crust" types.

They use one or two traditional hymns, they want one played in a gospel style, then the rest are "worship" songs in the style of, only less worshipful than Billy Graham or Beverly Shea, and by comparing them to the songs at this church * feel that * 've insulted the immeasurable talent the two men possessed.

A great amount of "* want this Jesus, * need this Jesus, * want me to be the centre and not you, Jesus" type tunes. This doesn't particularly agree with my stomach.

However, with that said, * have yet to meet a single charismatic or what have you at the church. The choir are all lovely, beautiful people, greatly talented, who love to sing anthems and the old hymns and even new, if they're good. It seems there's a conflict between the minister and his people perhaps?

Yet to throw me off completely is that their altar is set up ad orientem, and the high Church vestments are used. Plus he ordered me (gratefully) the proper surplice and cassock for an organist. So all in all it seems like it's truly a broad, broad church in regards to liturgical taste.

* also found out that this vicar is, indeed, officially recognised by the Anglican Province of the Southern Cone....so technically is in the Communion.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

Well, if he is in fact located in South America, perhaps. But yes, that is the basis of their pitch.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

PD is with the United Episcopal Church in North America, one of the three "Chambers jurisdictions" formed in 1978 by +Albert Chambers' consecration of four men to the episcopate of the fledgling Anglican Church in North America (no relation to the jurisdiction which currently bears that name). The UECNA is a sister jurisdiction of the Anglican Province of Christ the King (where I am) and the Anglican Catholic Church.

The Anglican Church in America which ChastMastr & LQ refer to is the product of an attempt at a merger between the Anglican Catholic Church and the American Episcopal Church in North America. At the last moment the merger didn't quite come off, and many of the ACC clergy decided not to join the new jurisdiction after all, choosing to soldier on under their pre-merger name. The AECNA ceased to exist for all practical purposes after that.

With the exception of the UECNA, pretty much all of the abovementioned jurisdictions are Anglo-Catholic (old style). The UECNA is a more broadly conceived organization and has a more markedly Reformed identity than the ACC, APCK, or ACA.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

[tangent]

I've no idea about the realignment stuff, but I would say that Newfoundland is one of the finest places we've ever visited, and the best island I've ever been to (haven't been to Labrador, though looked at in the rain from St Barbe).

Got called "buddy" and "darling" by everyone, and found nearly everyone would have a good chat just about any time which meant we never got to where we thought we might go, and it didn't matter a bit. I had to adjust my ears from town to town and east coast to west coast. We're talking of meeting our London-based daughter there on our fourth trip to, which is quite a bit more than half way to London for us from western Canada.

[/tangent]

Posted by Magersfontein Lugg (# 18240) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
This is a link to the website for their new 2011 Book of Common Prayer: here.

There's a section there alongside their prayer for the president, to include a prayer for the Queen at Canadian parishes. However, it uses American spelling.

And that book says it:

quote:
.... meets an essential need for new, growing congregations who desire ancient worship in language intended for today's Christian.

And

quote:
Bound with the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion, including the Royal Declaration

The Royal declaration?? Which and what about?
And are the 39 articles of the book 'in language intended for today's Christian'?

Seems a curious body

Posted by Cameron PM (# 18142) on :

I was curious about the Royal proclamation.

It has to be Royal to be a Royal proclamation, and American inventions usually aren't decreed "Royal."

Unless they're after photocopying the regular one from the 1662 BCP.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

I have only one direct experience of ACNA, but it may be illustrative. An ACC priest was removed from a parish in the north of the diocese ("too conservative" for rural New Brunswick!) and, as if he were RC, was parachuted into a city parish whose previous priest succumbed to Alzheimer's. His only topic of sermon was the evil of the gays, which caused his parish to decrease rapidly. The day he retired, so he could claim the pension, he announced the opening of an ACNA parish in the city, using the Family Room at the local Wesleyan megachurch. This caused significant heartburn among the rest of the Anglicans.

Of course, after a few of the hangers-on-to-coattails left, the new parish became non-viable and disappeared, not having any physical presence to be disposed of. Where the priest has gone is a mystery to me, one which I will not be investigating.

This may not be typical, but that crowd generally do not care how much damage they do to the "ungodly" of the ACC, so beware.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Horseman Bree posts:

quote:
The day he retired, so he could claim the pension, he announced the opening of an ACNA parish in the city, using the Family Room at the local Wesleyan megachurch.

I am not certain how this has anything to do with his pension, which (I am assuming that he became vested in it some years before) would have come into play the week before, or the week following. After all, it is his property and presumably he had contributed to it over the years.

After all, a Bank of Nova Scotia retiree keeps their pension even if he determines to bank from a credit union (or, indeed, be employed by them) when they retire. And I would keep my federal public service pension should I take up Bolivian citizenship on retirement.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Augustine the Aleut--

"Anglican tracks at evangelical seminaries"???

{Blinks.}

Er...is this a Canadian thing??? I'm guessing it's for low-church folks?

Thx.

Posted by Magersfontein Lugg (# 18240) on :

I think that the Church of England is re-aligning itself more and more to an 'open' and even 'conservative' evangelical position.

Hence:
free for all in (often ill thought out) liturgy.
Light weight songs.
Playing down clergy dress.
Lot of 'Jesus, Jesus, talk...'
Fewer theologians in leadership positions - a preference for church managers.

and:
Decline in traditional language worship
Decline in use of daily office
Decline in pastoral care of non church people.

Or am I being cynical?

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Augustine the Aleut--

"Anglican tracks at evangelical seminaries"???

{Blinks.}

Er...is this a Canadian thing??? I'm guessing it's for low-church folks?

Thx.

Not necessarily. Boring theological studies tangent follows.

Anglicanism in Canada does not have a large percentage of the population (8% by the most recent census) or any real mass (500,000) over a large country to sustain a substantial academic presence-- its main seminaries (Trinity and Wycliffe, Vancouver, Saint John's in Winnipeg) are affiliated with university schools of theology which provide shared training for a number of churches.

There are several denomination-unspecific evangelical seminaries (e.g. Trinity Western in Vancouver) where they provide denomination-specific training for ordination tracks, Lutheran, Baptist, or even Anglican. Anglican ordinands there would tend not to hew to ACoC culture and would be more evangelical or XXXIX-conservative (not exactly the same thing). There is also an Anglican track at the local (Ottawa) RC university, Saint Paul, which enables Ottawa ordinands to be trained without having to go to Toronto. A parallel example is how the Montreal Diocesan Theological College, while still technically in existence, has become the Anglican track at the Montreal School of Theology, part of the Faculty of Religious Studies at McGill.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

This happens quite a bit in the US, as well. I know continuing clergy who've received master's degrees from Regent in BC, Fuller, and Vanguard.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
I think that the Church of England is re-aligning itself more and more to an 'open' and even 'conservative' evangelical position.

<snip>

am I being cynical?

Not cynical, and I do not think it is a deliberate realignment, but a natural consequence of the evangelicals declining slower than the other factions.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Horseman Bree posts:
quote:
The day he retired, so he could claim the pension, he announced the opening of an ACNA parish in the city, using the Family Room at the local Wesleyan megachurch.
I am not certain how this has anything to do with his pension, which (I am assuming that he became vested in it some years before) would have come into play the week before, or the week following. After all, it is his property and presumably he had contributed to it over the years.

After all, a Bank of Nova Scotia retiree keeps their pension even if he determines to bank from a credit union (or, indeed, be employed by them) when they retire. And I would keep my federal public service pension should I take up Bolivian citizenship on retirement.

This issue caused a certain amount of the heartache in the parish he was damaging: he wasn't honest enough to be open about his talks with ACNA while he was still their priest, even though he could have done so without damaging his choices after retirement. He was quite happy to have the Diocese run his retirement fund, even if they were Godless heretics, but he then went out of his way to take the money and visibly run to the megachurch on the same street to diss his former congregation as another bunch of the same kind of not-really-Christian on the actual day of his taking said money.

A rather mean-spirited man.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

I have my own experiences of clergy still on ACoC payroll as they plot, and I have little good to say about them (and will happily express myself given a glass of something palatable), but I think that pensions are irrelevant to the discussion. I have had conversations with others who would share the opinion of Horseman Bree's posse on the pension question, and I am not convinced. One can question the integrity of those who take diocesan paycheques while they dabble in "talks," but the pensions are for past service and partly their contribution.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

There are several denomination-unspecific evangelical seminaries (e.g. Trinity Western in Vancouver) where they provide denomination-specific training for ordination tracks, Lutheran, Baptist, or even Anglican. Anglican ordinands there would tend not to hew to ACoC culture and would be more evangelical or XXXIX-conservative (not exactly the same thing). There is also an Anglican track at the local (Ottawa) RC university, Saint Paul, which enables Ottawa ordinands to be trained without having to go to Toronto. A parallel example is how the Montreal Diocesan Theological College, while still technically in existence, has become the Anglican track at the Montreal School of Theology, part of the Faculty of Religious Studies at McGill.

Regent College in Vancouver has or had an Anglican Studies programme: I suspect it has produced few graduates for New West and most of its constituency would probably have gone over to the Argentines. And in the US, Duke Divinity (Methodist) has an Anglican "house of studies" (for both Episcopal and ACNA ordinands).

VST in Vancouver and AST in Halifax are co-sponsored by multiple denominations, including Anglican, but the predecessor schools have merged totally and no longer have a distinct identity.

(In Vancouver, the Anglican seminaries were the anglo-catholic St Mark's and the evangelical Latimer House. In Halifax, the Anglican stream came from the old divinity faculty at the University of King's College - the original Columbia University - which folded with the United seminary, dashing my hopes of studying theology at King's. Oh well, there's always J-school).

Protestant* theological education in Montréal is too tangled a web for words. You spend three years (two if you have a previous degree) earning a Bachelor of Theology at either McGill or U de M and then a year of field ed and denominationally-specific courses through your college (Diocesan, United, or [continuing] Presbyterian) at which point an MDiv is awarded. While this effectively subsumes the BTh, the latter is never technically revoked, and so Dio grads routinely put "BTh, MDiv" after their names after a total of three years of study.

(*in the historic Québecois sense, including Anglican)

[ 05. December 2014, 15:09: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

I had confused Trinity Western with Regent--- but the Montréal situation is even more complex than I had thought. wow

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

(Please excuse interruption -- AtheA, your PM box is full)

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cenobite:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I know nothing about this group and not much about Anglicans. But what a friend whe have in Google. This web site on The submerging church may be related. The site talks about evil gay tolerant pastors and disses Rick Warren for talking about God as The compassionate and merciful one which apparently is an Islamic formulation that doesn't apply to their version of the Christian God.
This site makes me want to write a book, so that I can get on their list of recommended authors not to read, alongside the likes of St. Ignatius Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Avila...

On the plus side, they also have Todd Bentley and Mark Driscoll on their burning list....which proves the maxim that a broken clock is right at least twice a day...

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:
Originally posted by Cenobite:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I know nothing about this group and not much about Anglicans. But what a friend whe have in Google. This web site on The submerging church may be related. The site talks about evil gay tolerant pastors and disses Rick Warren for talking about God as The compassionate and merciful one which apparently is an Islamic formulation that doesn't apply to their version of the Christian God.
This site makes me want to write a book, so that I can get on their list of recommended authors not to read, alongside the likes of St. Ignatius Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Avila...
On the plus side, they also have Todd Bentley and Mark Driscoll on their burning list....which proves the maxim that a broken clock is right at least twice a day...

It something something indeed that they position themselves even further to the right of right-wing nutjobs like Rick Warren. Yikes!

K.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Rick Warren is beginning to be regarded as a dangerous pinko librul by the US fundie brigade as he likes the Pope and thinks it's a bad idea to be beastly to The Gayz

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

He works very hard at his PR, that's clearly a priority for him. I know that there are people even further to to the right of him, but the damage he has already done, personally, to fellow human being because of their sexuality is so great it is hard to gauge. Crocodile tears.

K.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0