Ship of Fools: ‘Christmas in the Koran’ by Ibn Warraq

Thread: ‘Christmas in the Koran’ by Ibn Warraq Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Motylos (# 18216) on :

web page
I have just started reading Christmas in the Koran by Ibn Warraq, which looks at the Syriac language influences on the text of the Koran but also the Syriac Christian influences on the development of Islam.

Has anyone else delved into this?

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Motylos:
web page
I have just started reading Christmas in the Koran by Ibn Warraq, which looks at the Syriac language influences on the text of the Koran but also the Syriac Christian influences on the development of Islam.

Has anyone else delved into this?

I get 'this web page is not available'

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

Try this link

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

How fascinating! Very interesting to read. Thank you.

Posted by Motylos (# 18216) on :

Apologies for the bad web-link — thanks for the right one, JoannaP.

Posted by Felafool (# 270) on :

Fascinating link. I was aware of some scholarly research going on, but it has been very low on my radar.

I have often felt that Islam needs its own reformation, and have prayed a long time for such research to become as widespread in Islam as Biblical Criticism was in the last couple of centuries. There is no doubt in my mind that Christianity now owes a lot to the form critics, historical, redaction, and textual critics. Although it was an uncomfortable time for some branches of church teaching (and still is for some I guess), it may have allowed extremes of Christian thought to understand each other (and other faiths) a little more.

As the article points out, Christian history has moved through times of excommunication and execution for different belief and dogma and took a long time to reach a point where we can begin to 'disagree well'. Islam seems a long way behind in this respect.

Posted by Motylos (# 18216) on :

The book — a series of essays by different authors, and therefore different and differing perspectives —shows that the Koran is rather like prehistoric amber preserving an ancient insect, in that it encloses like a time capsule a period and branch of the Church that is otherwise forgotten or overlooked. This is the Church of the East, regarded as neither ‘Orthodox’ nor ‘Catholic’ by Imperial Rome. Christians are called ‘Nazarenes’, probably meaning Nestorians rather follows of Jesus ‘Nazareth’. These are the body of Christians who reached ancient China as well as Arabia. Diarmaid McCollough has a lot to say about this branch of Christianity in A History of Christianity: the first 3,000 Years. In the accompanying TV programme an ancient Chinese church, now a Buddhist monastery, was visited.

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

There's several articles on this website making the same points about the lack of analysis of the Qur'an and other Islamic texts, and the importance of the influence of Judaism and Christianity.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Motylos:
Diarmaid McCollough has a lot to say about this branch of Christianity in A History of Christianity: the first 3,000 Years. In the accompanying TV programme an ancient Chinese church, now a Buddhist monastery, was visited.

It wasn't visited: the local people didn't let McCullough or the film crew in.

Posted by Motylos (# 18216) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:
Originally posted by Motylos:
Diarmaid McCollough has a lot to say about this branch of Christianity in A History of Christianity: the first 3,000 Years. In the accompanying TV programme an ancient Chinese church, now a Buddhist monastery, was visited.
It wasn't visited: the local people didn't let McCullough or the film crew in.

I seem to remember there was an interview with someone who had visited the burch now turned Buddhist monastery on the programme — which ws what Inwas referring to, probably too loosely.

I have also started the very radical The Hidden Origins of Islam, edited by Karl-Heinz Ohlig & Gerd-R. Puin, which presents the early Arab expansion as Syriac-Christian origin based on the evidence of coinage and inscriptions. It is a fascinating re-examination of the history of the seventh century AD and afterwards.

Posted by Magersfontein Lugg (# 18240) on :

I realise that Jesus is a prophet in Islam and great honour is given in Islam to Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

What about ther nativity stories - are they found in any form in Islam and do they signify any truth?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
What about ther nativity stories - are they found in any form in Islam and do they signify any truth?

Sort of - but Mary hides behind a bust to give birth on her own.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Motylos:

Has anyone else delved into this?

It's - in some ways - a popularisation of Luxenberg's work which is very difficult to evaluate as few people have the requisite skills in all the languages involved.

It's mostly an application of the techniques of textual criticism to the Korean - so it is somewhat interesting to find conservative Christians so interested in them.

Posted by Magersfontein Lugg (# 18240) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
What about ther nativity stories - are they found in any form in Islam and do they signify any truth?
Sort of - but Mary hides behind a bust to give birth on her own.

Hides behind 'a bust' ....?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

It sounds a bit far fetched to me.

I've never read the Koran, but I'm always very suspicious of anyone who says they've uncovered a completely new meaning hidden underneath a text that has a fairly clear existing meaning. It's a bit too like Dan Brown or those who claim to find encoded in the works of Shakespeare a secret message as to who wrote them.

I think this by Karen Armstrong might be more interesting.

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It sounds a bit far fetched to me.

I've never read the Koran, but I'm always very suspicious of anyone who says they've uncovered a completely new meaning hidden underneath a text that has a fairly clear existing meaning. It's a bit too like Dan Brown or those who claim to find encoded in the works of Shakespeare a secret message as to who wrote them.

I think this by Karen Armstrong might be more interesting.

Is it about a new meaning or a new understanding about how the text was constructed, with a process of editiing and redaction over some years rather than a single author whether (as in orthodox Islamic theology) God or (for the rest of us) Mohammed?

I was under the impression that the latter understanding was fairly uncontroversial among secular studies of Islamic origins, although one would probably be well advised not to work it into the conversation should one find oneself in Jeddah.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

"Mary In Islam"--Wikipedia. I particularly like the sections "Mary In Muslim Tradition" and "Arabic Titles". I knew they honored her, but not how much. *Some* Muslims even think of her as a prophet.

I went looking because I'd understood that some Muslims think the father of Jesus was some sort of spirit, like a djinni/genie. (They're acknowledged in the Koran, as basically another species created to worship God.) So far, though, I haven't found anything like that.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

I've never read the Koran, but I'm always very suspicious of anyone who says they've uncovered a completely new meaning hidden underneath a text that has a fairly clear existing meaning.

The thing is that there are some constructs in the Koran which don't appear to have parallels outside the Koran - and so in these cases the language itself is partially defined by the Koranic passages.

Much of the ideas of Luxenberg/Warraq are standard textual and redaction criticism though.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
What about ther nativity stories - are they found in any form in Islam and do they signify any truth?
Sort of - but Mary hides behind a bust to give birth on her own.
Hides behind 'a bust' ....?

bush - sorry

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

My imagination was running wild

Posted by Merchant Trader (# 9007) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Motylos:
web page
I have just started reading Christmas in the Koran by Ibn Warraq, which looks at the Syriac language influences on the text of the Koran but also the Syriac Christian influences on the development of Islam.

Has anyone else delved into this?

I might suggest a read of Hans Kung's Islam

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Merchant Trader:

quote:
Originally posted by Motylos:
web page
I have just started reading Christmas in the Koran by Ibn Warraq, which looks at the Syriac language influences on the text of the Koran but also the Syriac Christian influences on the development of Islam.

Has anyone else delved into this?
I might suggest a read of Hans Kung's Islam

As a slight side-issue, what do you think of it, Merchant Trader? Is it worth getting? My impression was that it is more on the history of Islam.

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