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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Libby Lane first woman bishop
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Its been announced that Libby Lane is to be the first female bishop in the CofE.
Predictably she's been Dean of Women in Ministry for Chester diocese so it makes sense that she go to Stockport.
But wouldn't it have been better to have appointed as first woman someone who hadn't done the whole 'women's ministry' route, but rather who was a senior cleric because she was better than a man?
I'm sure Mrs Lane will make a fine suffragan but its not an inspired choice.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
Maybe the first diocesan bishop rather than suffragan (if that's the right terminology??) will be someone more high profile.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Since the usual route is to be appointed a suffragan before becoming a diocesan bishop, that's unlikely anytime soon.
And, of course, suffragans don't go on the list for the House of Lords.
So its establishment 2 - 21st century church 0.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Since the usual route is to be appointed a suffragan before becoming a diocesan bishop, that's unlikely anytime soon.
It's not unknown become a diocesan bishop without first being a suffragan though. Two that spring to mind immediately are Stephen Platten who was Dean of Norwich before becoming Bishop of Wakefield and Michael Perham who was Dean of Derby before being Bishop of Gloucester. I'm sure there are others.
[ 17. December 2014, 09:54: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Since the usual route is to be appointed a suffragan before becoming a diocesan bishop, that's unlikely anytime soon.
It's not unknown become a diocesan bishop without first being a suffragan though. Two that spring to mind immediately are Stephen Platten who was Dean of Norwich before becoming Bishop of Wakefield and Michael Perham who was Dean of Derby before being Bishop of Gloucester. I'm sure there are others.
Justin Welby?
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Yup. And according to the Torygraph quote:
[A] bill is being presented to the Commons on Thursday to suspend the current rules governing appointments of bishops to the Lords for 10 years to allow future female bishops to bypass their male colleagues into the upper house ... [I]t was hoped the bill would clear both houses and receive Royal Assent by the spring ... "[I]t is possible that you will have a woman bishop in the House of Lords by time of the General Election.”
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I suspect that as the first woman bishop, she will come under very intense scrutiny, and so someone who has worked on the issues, and someone who is relatively safe is a good choice.
The important and possibly inspired ones will be the next few. It is one of them who is liable to be the first diocesan, and the first to be in the house of Lords.
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Blog
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take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, I'd agree. Safe low-profile appointment, lots of roots in the diocese, unknown outside it, makes sense on this occasion.
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Libby is indeed an inspired choice, not least I hope because the bishop of Chester has discerned the Spirit's guidance in appointing her! She is an excellent person who is well rooted in front line ministry. My experience of her is of someone who is capable without being deaf to the advice of others, who works collaboratively and who is concerned for mission and discipleship. She will be excellent and Stockport and Chester are fortunate.
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I think that its great that a woman has been appointed who has had, broadly speaking, the same sort of background in ministry that a man might have had - a mixture of parish and diocesan roles encompassing a range of experience. In many ways better than one of the 'obvious' high-profile candidates who might have been chosen.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Thanks, Charles, good to hear.
[BTW I really like the phrase 'unfocused wittering'! ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
So far the best take on this is here on Daily Mash
The idea of dizzy Anglicans grabbing bannisters and backs of chairs. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
What slightly confuses me is that she'll be working with a diocesan bishop who, notoriously, was investigated by the police for homophobic hate speech. I guess it just means we can all be selective about the issues on which we cling to scripture.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
From the linked article:
quote:
However, no charges were made, and the police were satisfied that no offence had been committed
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
From the linked article:
quote:
However, no charges were made, and the police were satisfied that no offence had been committed
Without wanting to get too Dead Horse-y, I believe it was actually the Crown Prosecution service who advised no prosecution, having been approached by the police on the matter. Further, the Bishop was advised by the Chief Constable of Cheshire not to repeat the remarks he had made.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
According to the BBC news story a police spokesman said quote:
"The Crown Prosecution Service has been consulted at length and the Cheshire constabulary is satisfied that no criminal offences have been committed.
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
the Bishop was advised by the Chief Constable of Cheshire not to repeat the remarks he had made.
I don't recall seeing this reported.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
According to the BBC news story a police spokesman said quote:
"The Crown Prosecution Service has been consulted at length and the Cheshire constabulary is satisfied that no criminal offences have been committed.
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
the Bishop was advised by the Chief Constable of Cheshire not to repeat the remarks he had made.
I don't recall seeing this reported.
From John Marsh's book, The Liberal Delusion, p.126:
quote:
Two uniformed policemen went round to his home and interrogated him; they sent a report to the Crown Prosecution Service recommending that he be prosecuted. The Chief Constable of Cheshire publicly warned the bishop to stop expressing such views. The Bishop never repeated them.
(You can find the quotation on a Google book search.)
[ 17. December 2014, 12:05: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Whatever he may or may not have said, the new bishop already works in the diocese so will already be aware of his views.
Not only that, but this thread is about the appointment of the first female bishop in the CofE. If she hadn't been appointed, the diocesan bishop's views would still be the same, so it's totally irrelevant to this thread.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
What slightly confuses me is that she'll be working with a diocesan bishop who, notoriously, was investigated by the police for homophobic hate speech. I guess it just means we can all be selective about the issues on which we cling to scripture.
Not confusing. As ken always used to point out, there is no necesary connection between views on different DH topics. IIRC the Church of Uganda, for example (which believes very strongly that men in Uganda should not discuss Uganda with other men in Uganda) allows women to be bishops; while OTOH I imagine we have, most of us, run across rather misogynistic gay clergy.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Since the usual route is to be appointed a suffragan before becoming a diocesan bishop, that's unlikely anytime soon.
And, of course, suffragans don't go on the list for the House of Lords.
So its establishment 2 - 21st century church 0.
I don't follow your logic even assuming there is an establishment vs 21st century match going on (a cynic might suggest that we should be thinking of preparing for a 20th century church). I would imagine that they have decided that the appointment of a suffragan bishop is preferable as: a) the Archbishop is not immediately blamable and the concept of a diocesan bishop is likely too difficult for the popular press to grasp, b) less likely to get the evangelical male-headship folk excited, c) not wishing to eat up their time and energy with the excitement around a "high-profile" appointment, and d) quieting grumblers with the assurance that this is a working appointment, not a symbolic one. This would make life much easier for a woman diocesan bishop when that happens a year or two down the line.
As well, I am not sure that getting on a 7-9 year waiting list for a House of Lords seat is that much of an issue. But then again, with the Canadian Senate but 2km away from my keyboard, perhaps that level of excitement overwhelms my ability to assess the significance of other upper houses.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Whatever he may or may not have said, the new bishop already works in the diocese so will already be aware of his views.
Not only that, but this thread is about the appointment of the first female bishop in the CofE. If she hadn't been appointed, the diocesan bishop's views would still be the same, so it's totally irrelevant to this thread.
Are you saying that as an Admin or as a Shipmate? Because if it's as an Admin, my response is "yessir". If it's as a Shipmate, my response is that when I see an appointment in which M'lord of Chester has had a hand, I want to know where the appointee stands on that particular issue before I commit myself to raising three hearty cheers.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I don't see why the appointment shouldn't be considered inspired. Libby Lane was ordained in 1994 on the same day as her husband. She therefore has two decades of experience in the ministry, and may prove an outstanding candidate. I congratulate her and wish her the best!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Huts
Apprentice
# 13017
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
Maybe the first diocesan bishop rather than suffragan (if that's the right terminology??) will be someone more high profile.
Congrats to her!
While I had never heard of her, the comments on facebook of those who know her from that diocese seems to suggests she will be an excellent choice. It's also very wise to appoint the first female bishop as a suffragan. It means we will be used to seeing a women in purple by the time we get a diocesan.
It might just be me, but I don't want as my suffragan nor my diocesan who is someone 'high profile' whether they are a man or a woman. I want me bishop to be someone who has been chosen/called for their 'christian characteristics' rather than the characteristics the 'the world' considers important.
Whenever I see a newspaper article that references the person as 'one of the bookmakers favorite to be one of the first female bishop' I think, please not them! What do bookmakers know about who would make a good bishop.
There are plenty of female and male priest who would make excellent suffragan and diocesan bishops and most, if not all are not 'high profile'.
[ 17. December 2014, 14:15: Message edited by: Huts ]
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Welcome to my church world! My Episcopal diocese (Los Angeles) has two women suffragans, both excellent, IMO. One of them, Diane Jardine Bruce, has oversight over our little church and visits at least twice a year. And it is rumored that she will throw in her hat for election as our Bishop Coadjutor to take the reins when our Diocesan, J. Jon Bruno, retires in four years.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Its been announced that Libby Lane is to be the first female bishop in the CofE.
Predictably she's been Dean of Women in Ministry for Chester diocese so it makes sense that she go to Stockport.
But wouldn't it have been better to have appointed as first woman someone who hadn't done the whole 'women's ministry' route, but rather who was a senior cleric because she was better than a man?
I'm sure Mrs Lane will make a fine suffragan but its not an inspired choice.
It IS an inspired choice!
Its a choice of someone thought to be bishop material who hasnt gone into the Archdeacon / Dean route, but is a parish priest. Inspired!
After all Archdeacons and Deans are different matters / roles to suffragan's. Libby Lane has experience in care of clergy, experience in parishes. Well thought of....
Its encouraging too given the rather silly recent report about 'grooming' people to be bishops.
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
quote:
After all Archdeacons and Deans are different matters / roles to suffragan's.
Yes indeed. And a university friend of mine, who is currently one of the small number of women Deans, has always been absolutely clear that she never wanted to be a bishop. This isn't just the traditional "nolo episcopi": she hasn't been called to be a bishop, she's called to be a Dean.
Good luck and God bless to Reverend Lane!
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I hope this is not a dead horse topic, but I'll ask here until corrected by a host.
I'm ignorant of the logic and consequences, does this appointment change anything with male headship crowd or their flying bishops?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Its been announced that Libby Lane is to be the first female bishop in the CofE.
Predictably she's been Dean of Women in Ministry for Chester diocese so it makes sense that she go to Stockport.
Her experience in her present role will probably make her well aware of the need to ensure good pastoral care for her clergy as well as the laity of her region. Her experience as a parish priest will have taught her to care for the laity. From an outsider's perspective, it seems a very sensible choice.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I hope this is not a dead horse topic, but I'll ask here until corrected by a host.
I'm ignorant of the logic and consequences, does this appointment change anything with male headship crowd or their flying bishops?
We think that, unlike the discussion of the appointment of a particular bishop, this probably is a DH question. Perhaps worth picking up there as a topic in its own right?
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Well according to this:
Hale St.Peter
the only Sunday without the Eucharist as the main service is the third, and the Eucharist is celebrated every Sunday at 8.30, so I don't know if that would satisfy the provisions of canon law? It's not an uncommon service schedule.....(although admittedly not my preferred service schedule)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
As far as I know Canon Law does not specify the eucharist should be the main service (although I would argue that, being the eucharist, it is anyway whatever time of day it is celebrated and however few the congregation). Multi-church benefices often alternate between Sundays but that is technically illegal I think if they are still distinct parishes as opposed to more than one church in the same parish.
The local conservative(-ish) evangelical parish to me has said Holy Communion every Sunday at 8.30.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
... the only Sunday without the Eucharist as the main service is the third, and the Eucharist is celebrated every Sunday at 8.30, so I don't know if that would satisfy the provisions of canon law? ...
I'm sure it does. Until the 1950s, the almost universal timetable in ordinary rather than Anglo-Catholic parishes was 8 am Holy Communion, 11 am Morning Prayer, 6 or 6.30pm Evening Prayer. Gradually between 1950 and 1970 it became more widespread to replace ONE Morning Prayer per month with a sung Communion. Having more than one Principal Service per month as a Eucharist is only really a development that follows from the adoption of the various permutations of alternatives to the BCP, Series II, Series III, the ASB etc.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
It all depended on the churchmanship pre c1970 or so.
If a church was 'high' then the Eucharist was the main service, but with Morning Prayer (Matins) also given a prominent place for those parishioners who preferred not to take communion.
A typical schedule for a 'high' church parish would be something like this:
8am - Said Holy Communion
9.15am - Parish Eucharist (sung with setting, etc)
11am - Choral Matins (hymns, setting of canticles, etc)
6.30pm - Choral Evensong.
As for Libby Lane's parish: a quick glance shows there are 2 communion service every Sunday, which is a hell of a lot better than many parishes around my neck of the woods.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
And Prayer Book evensong two Sundays a month! I am now definitely a fan of Ms Lane. Clearly not an alumna of Cranmer Hall for nothing.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
It all depended on the churchmanship pre c1970 or so.
If a church was 'high' then the Eucharist was the main service, but with Morning Prayer (Matins) also given a prominent place for those parishioners who preferred not to take communion.
A typical schedule for a 'high' church parish would be something like this:
8am - Said Holy Communion
9.15am - Parish Eucharist (sung with setting, etc)
11am - Choral Matins (hymns, setting of canticles, etc)
6.30pm - Choral Evensong.
As for Libby Lane's parish: a quick glance shows there are 2 communion service every Sunday, which is a hell of a lot better than many parishes around my neck of the woods.
Funnily enough that used to be our pattern up until the 1960s when Mattins was dropped and the early Eucharist was dropped in the 1980's and we were middle of the road rather than High
Since the 1990s we have had a succession of High Church rectors and also are part of a larger benefice and that is reflected in the services. Under our present rector incense is used weekly which has got up some people's noses in more senses than one.......He preaches well though..... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Here in Canada we have had several female bishops . It works out fairly well . So to Rev. Lane all the best and may your diocese grow
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
What's not to like about incense?
Quite apart from being an excellent inhalant if you have a head cold, it stops churches smelling of damp...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What's not to like about incense?
Quite apart from being an excellent inhalant if you have a head cold, it stops churches smelling of damp...
It causes me to have to leave the building - asthma.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I too am asthmatic Boogie, and have never had a problem with incense ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I welcome the fact that we shall have our first woman bishop within about a month but I am concerned to notice that in both of her previous parishes The Holy Communion is only celebrated once a fortnight, in contravention to canon law.
You are presuming that no dispensation has been granted under Canon B14A, even though, on the face of it, Ashley and Hale is precisely the kind of situation for which the Canon was drafted.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I too am asthmatic Boogie, and have never had a problem with incense
With me it depends. If something has already set me off (allergy or background infection) then incense (or other smoke) can be the last straw.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Leo if you look again at the site you linked to you'll find that the present order of services were arrived at in 2011 whereas Rev.Lane took up her post in Hale in 2007
You might actually be reading too much into possibly as not all incumbents alter the service schedules. Whenever it's happened it's nearly always caused a howl of complaints even by just altering the time. Our service schedules have been altered but then they've had to be as we're a three church benefice with two priests. It's just the time though - the chief service in all three churches is the Eucharist - but even that has caused quite a few moans I believe
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
But wouldn't it have been better to have appointed as first woman someone who hadn't done the whole 'women's ministry' route, but rather who was a senior cleric because she was better than a man?
Surely the best to be hoped for is that she has been appointed because she is the best person for the job?
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I am glad that the first woman bishop in the C of E will not be one of the "frontrunners", but someone rather unexpected. I know absolutely nothing about her but wish her well.
I am - however - rather concerned by the way this has been done. To me, it smacks of an episcopal race to be responsible for the first woman bishop appointment, rather than a concerted effort to introduce women bishops smoothly. I've said before that I think that the pressures on the "first woman bishop" are likely to be so great that it would make more sense to appoint two or three together, to ease the burden. There is no reason why this announcement could not have been delayed for a while whilst other appointments were being lined up.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Got it in one, OTG.
Worse, they decided to appoint where they did because it was going to be seen as a 'local' cleric being given a 'local' suffragancy, so not really an important appointment at all.
In LL they've got about as close to a she's a woman and she's a bishop but not really appointment as they can, hoping (I suspect achieving) for a result that some who are a bit iffy about female mitre wearers can assuage their qualms with the nostrum 'she's more a super rural dean rather than a bishop. Not very flattering either to the church or to Mrs Lane.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In LL they've got about as close to a she's a woman and she's a bishop but not really appointment as they can, hoping (I suspect achieving) for a result that some who are a bit iffy about female mitre wearers can assuage their qualms with the nostrum 'she's more a super rural dean rather than a bishop. Not very flattering either to the church or to Mrs Lane.
That'll be a bit more difficult a mental dodge once she starts doing stuff only a bishop can, like ordaining people.
Folks who are determined to be in denial will continue to keep their heads under the water. But eventually they'll have to come up for air.
It's a strange - and very poor - coping strategy.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Folks who are determined to be in denial will continue to keep their heads under the water. But eventually they'll have to come up for air.
It's a strange - and very poor - coping strategy.
They've remained submerged for 20 years and more; I think they're aiming for some sort of record.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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