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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Cemeteries, funerals, memorials, and getting along
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
This thread is for discussion of cemeteries and funeral practices (general, multi-faith, multi-cultural...), how much they matter, and how to get along when there's a clash of preferences, of beliefs, and of the deceased's wishes vs. those of loved ones, clergy, and officials.
(Sparked by Styx discussion of a closed Purg thread about alleged clashes between Roma/Gypsies and Muslims at a shared cemetery.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Just to get the thread's motor started, a couple of questions:
--Is it important for people of a particular belief to be buried/scattered/etc. in the same place?
--If the deceased's requests are extreme (e.g., being buried in their car), should they be followed?
--What if a person dies among people who believe very differently, and there are no others of their beliefs around? Should the local people make a strong effort to follow the person's beliefs, if they can find out about them? Should they simply handle the death as they would one of their own?
--Should two people who hated each other (or each other's type) in life be buried next to each other?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Just to get the thread's motor started, a couple of questions:
1--Is it important for people of a particular belief to be buried/scattered/etc. in the same place?
That's up to (followers of) the particular belief to decide (although see 2).
quote:
2--If the deceased's requests are extreme (e.g., being buried in their car), should they be followed?
No idea, or even how we decide what extreme is.
Which is rather bad.
quote:
3--What if a person dies among people who believe very differently, and there are no others of their beliefs around? Should the local people make a strong effort to follow the person's beliefs, if they can find out about them? Should they simply handle the death as they would one of their own?
Personally, in a 'do as to others', I'd like (them) to make a strong effort to find out. And if things can be done without clashing definitely try to follow. But part of that would be sincerity and the buryer able to believe it (I'd rather not have someone intentionally do stuff they think would send me to hell).
But things would get complex quickly
quote:
--Should two people who hated each other (or each other's type) in life be buried next to each other?
Depends what we think of them.
[ 12. February 2015, 07:03: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
In all my years of ministry (27) the only argument I came across was a disagreement between brother and sister about whether Dad should be buried or cremated.
Sister, who lived in the same town as Dad and visited him often, said that Dad wanted burial; Brother, who lived miles and miles away, had travelled throughout his ministry as a minister, and, to my knowledge hardly visited his Dad, insisted on cremation.
He got his way and the sister was upset.
It all goes to show: put it in your funeral plan. Leave a clear instruction where it can be found. Putting it in your will is insufficient because the will isn't looked at until after all the funeral arrangements have been made and carried out.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
Even if you request something there is no guarantee you get it. A close relative died recently and the family requested a C of E minister to take the funeral. The person that the funeral directors booked had 'rev' in their email address but it was only when the family met her they got suspicious and it turns out she is an independent funeral celebrant and not a licenced C of E minister as requested. As far as we know she is not a minister in any Christian church or congregation.
So the celebrant was stood down, a C of E priest contacted and the family got the funeral they requested. Most families wouldn't have checked that the rev the funeral directors send them actually is one.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Of course, this idea of wrestling with the 'ownership' of dead bodies has a long pedigree.
In the town where I am, the municipal cemetery has been full for more than 30 years - due to a spike in population around 100 years ago - so we have an interesting relic of death preserved.
And we see that Jews were excluded from the main cemetery (they had their own behind a tall wall opposite the main gate) and the Christian denominations each had their own gate and chapel to enter the cemetery. I have not been able to establish whether there was any division between believers in the main cemetery, but I doubt it.
We also have the history of groups who were excluded - including Quakers - and the sense of separation of those who died poor (in the workhouse) or prisoner and were buried in unmarked graves.
What does this all tell us? I think it says that the idea of separation in burial has a fairly long cultural history even where the burial provision was supplied by the municipality.
I am not so sure it is so weird.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
There are independent wedding celebrants, too. And you can get an instant, online ordination through something like the Universal Life Church. (Despite what you might think, IIRC, ULC doesn't simply provide a certificate. They help people learn about pastoral care, etc.) I've heard of people with that kind of ordination doing weddings; not sure about funerals.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
The American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) has an article on unusual funeral requests.
I want to be cremated and scattered at sea, but I do kind of like the memorial reef idea.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
We have a long-running series of funereal feuds going on locally between Muslims and Christians who usually have to share the same après-vie facilities. The latest one was to orient all the plots facing North East in the Muslim tradition, regardless of the religious beliefs of the occupant. Previous spats have included ostentatious headstones/displays/kitsch art installations and not wanting to pay extra for concrete vaulting or out of hours burials required by some religions.
I still don't know why we can't be buried standing up in a simple tube. It would cut down on the amount of space required, allow for any orientation necessary, make vaulting easy to do with existing concrete pipes, make digging a synch with a simple post drill and allow me to install a doner kebab spit so I could turn in my grave more easily.
[ 12. February 2015, 08:43: Message edited by: Bob Two-Owls ]
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It all goes to show: put it in your funeral plan. Leave a clear instruction where it can be found. Putting it in your will is insufficient because the will isn't looked at until after all the funeral arrangements have been made and carried out.
Good advice.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It all goes to show: put it in your funeral plan. Leave a clear instruction where it can be found. Putting it in your will is insufficient because the will isn't looked at until after all the funeral arrangements have been made and carried out.
Good advice.
And make sure you tell people about it! My mother wished to be buried at the local church; she did put it in her will but we all knew, anyway. So did the Vicar.
All that is so much better than trying to second-guess the presumed wishes of the deceased. [But some families simply refuse to talk about death - perhaps they think that doing so attracts the Grim Reaper's attention].
[ 12. February 2015, 09:12: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I think the biggest issue is that funerals are emotive. And, the family are not going to be in the best emotional state to handle people when they find that their wishes conflict with some local regulations. Which is another reason to organise things in advance, make sure that what you want for your funeral is possible before you write down your instructions for how you'll be buried. Don't leave it to your bereaved relatives to organise a funeral meeting impossible instructions.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Whilst I joke that if anyone turns up in a really smart black suit at my funeral I'll haunt the bugger, I really can't imagine giving a flying one about what happens to me after I'm dead. You can stick me in the back of a transit and drop me in the canal for all I care. I'll be dead.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
And we see that Jews were excluded from the main cemetery (they had their own behind a tall wall opposite the main gate) and the Christian denominations each had their own gate and chapel to enter the cemetery.
It can be quite astonishing to see a Jewish cemetery.
Quite possibly it can be astonishing to a person from a young country like mine (in European terms, anyway) to see any really old cemetery, (the Freedom Trail in Boston has a couple), but the Jewish cemetery in Prague is burned in my memory. Gravestone upon gravestone crowded together, falling on one another, because this was the only plot of land they had and there was no prospect of another.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
As with many things in life, what should happen and what will happen are often different.
I was in a chorus that sang free concerts in the community and also sang at members' funerals; the chorus has disbanded due to the leader's age, will a chorus sing at his funeral? It would be fitting but there's no chorus to sing.
A friend is a Christian, the family are all atheists and uncomfortable with mention of God. Will he have a church funeral? Not likely.
A neighbor has no immediate family, will she have a funeral at all? Why would distant cousins go to the expense of flying to her city to make arrangements for a funeral - and who but family has the motivation to do that work and expense?
Unless there is a local family who all agree what the deceased would want and can afford the time and money to make it happen, disposal will reflect the interests of the survivors. Hasn't it always been that way?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Once last year I was playing the organ at the end of the service and an elderly lady came and stood next to me. When I finished the piece, she said, "Could you write down the name of that music, please? I'm planning my funeral and I want someone to play that at the end."
She's still alive and attending church, by the way. Though she is well over 90.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I was in a chorus that sang free concerts in the community and also sang at members' funerals; the chorus has disbanded due to the leader's age, will a chorus sing at his funeral? It would be fitting but there's no chorus to sing.
I was in a church chorus/choir that often sang at funerals, but that had to disband for several reasons, including the leader's illness. I think there's often a problem in that church small groups, which is that continuity planning seems not to work out very well.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I was in a chorus that sang free concerts in the community and also sang at members' funerals; the chorus has disbanded due to the leader's age, will a chorus sing at his funeral? It would be fitting but there's no chorus to sing.
I was in a church chorus/choir that often sang at funerals, but that had to disband for several reasons, including the leader's illness. I think there's often a problem in that church small groups, which is that continuity planning seems not to work out very well.
Leading music is a skill of it's own. So is selecting music appropriate for the group size and voices.
But I think you are right, we don't usually do anything to train choir members how to temporarily fill in leading, nor how to find or attract a new leader. If the leader is late, everyone waits instead of getting to work on the music or warmups without him. Unless maybe it's a big enough group to have section leaders?
I've never been in a church choir that sang for funerals! Except a clergy funeral once.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
I had a member phone me this week to check the hymn numbers for his and his wife's funeral plans. It reminded me of the minister I worked with once as an intern who gave every church member a form to fill out with their ideas about their funerals. He then kept them on file in his office, and they could ask to see theirs and make changes at any point. Which is a good idea if the deceased is the most important person when planning a funeral. Sometimes I think that it is the next of kin or the best friend (families always undervalue the friends, or nearly always) who is most important.
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
cathscats--
I take your point; but, sometimes, it can help a person be less scared of death if they can specify the arrangements.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cathscats:
I had a member phone me this week to check the hymn numbers for his and his wife's funeral plans. It reminded me of the minister I worked with once as an intern who gave every church member a form to fill out with their ideas about their funerals. He then kept them on file in his office, and they could ask to see theirs and make changes at any point. Which is a good idea if the deceased is the most important person when planning a funeral. Sometimes I think that it is the next of kin or the best friend (families always undervalue the friends, or nearly always) who is most important.
For those who have no family (or no interested family), it's brilliant. But it needs also discussion of costs. And a list of who should be notified. I have a neighbor who is an only child orphan. She has cousins, somewhere.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
We have a long-running series of funereal feuds going on locally between Muslims and Christians who usually have to share the same après-vie facilities. The latest one was to orient all the plots facing North East in the Muslim tradition, regardless of the religious beliefs of the occupant. Previous spats have included ostentatious headstones/displays/kitsch art installations and not wanting to pay extra for concrete vaulting or out of hours burials required by some religions.
I'm not sure why this is any different to all plots facing East, as they do in most cemeteries. You can't mix different orientations in the same section: without sullying my browser by visiting the Telegraph site (of course, it could be the Derby Evening Telegraph, but why take the risk? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ), if the majority of burials (or the majority of those who express a preference) want a burial facing Mecca, wouldn't you expect the authorities to reflect that?
(By the way, wouldn't Mecca be in a south-east direction from most of the UK?)
quote:
I still don't know why we can't be buried standing up in a simple tube. It would cut down on the amount of space required, allow for any orientation necessary, make vaulting easy to do with existing concrete pipes, make digging a synch with a simple post drill and allow me to install a doner kebab spit so I could turn in my grave more easily.
Trouble is, I think you would need 12 foot deep holes, so that the top of the body would still be 6 foot below the surface. It would also make a right mess of future archaeological investigation as all the bones would fall into a heap at the bottom of the hole. That said, the spit mechanism could come with a surface winder so that people could come and make sure you're rotating when something annoying happens. On a bad day, they could attach a motor so you could reach 3600rpm!
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Beloved husband used to work for the local council and one of his work collegues was 'the funeral guy'. Basically any death in a council property of someone with no relatives findable would be cremated at the council's expense. Basic funeral service with a rent-a-vic but, and this is important, the funeral guy would always go to it. No-one in Guildford who died in social housing had a totally empty chapel at their cremation.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Thank you TessaB, that's a lovely story. Ignoring the provocations of newspapers looking for a fight, it would seem that the basic urge is to provide what the dying want for their funeral, secondarily what their family and relatives want and finally what doesn't annoy the family of the neighbors. It is to be expected that a mixed use cemetery will have occasional conflicts between neighbors and those who try to make everyone doe it according to the religion of the controller.
If people want their plots in a particular orientation you have the choice of giving them a separate section all aligned or create a great circle. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) The usual problem is that there isn't enough money to insulate everyone in s world of their own.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
In Amsterdam, there's a city program that puts together respectful funerals for people who have no one else to do it. One of the men involved writes a poem for each person.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
One of my former colleagues, upon retirement, was recruited into a local (Gatineau, Québec, across the river from Ottawa) group/ sodality whose function it was to attend funerals of homeless or solitary people. He happened to be at liberty to attend them on short notice and was always speeding off to a funeral home. Initially they had arranged for a requiem for each of them, but now did a weekly memorial mass. As several of the other retirees in the group spend their winters in warmer climes (it's -25°C today, not counting wind chill) and as the homeless die off quite regularly in January and February, he is extra busy.
He tells me that the Starbucks near one of the homes now comps him his coffee.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Mecca is South East, but bodies are placed, on their sides, facing towards it, thus the grave would be orientated North East.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Yesterday I attended the funeral of my uncle. It was 'excellent'.
Anyway, after the service the family made their way to the crematorium for the brief committal.
Two things stuck in my mind.
Firstly the vicar used the 'wrong' words for the committal. This was a cremation but he said 'earth to earth, dust to dust (and in this context, the very unfortunate) ashes to ashes'. In my tradition, those words are only used for an interment. At a cremation we commit 'his body to the elements in the certainty of, etc...'
Anyway, that wasn't the thing that really perturbed me.
After the committal service the family and friends - maybe about 60 of us - gathered outside the crematorium chapel which was the size and design of a small Gothic church with a central tower. As we were chatting I looked up and to my absolute horror, saw dark grey smoke begin to billow out from the tower which was, of course, the chimney.
Oh my God, I thought, I hope his widow doesn't look up!! The smoke was obviously the first stage of the combustion of my uncles's coffin, etc, and after 3 or 4 belches, subsided; but what an horrific sight! Surely to goodness they might have found some technology that restricts the smoke from doing that above the heads of the mourners.
It occurred to me that unless the crematorium staff actually go outside and look up, or unless they do visual checks during maintenance, they are not going to know that the smoke is thick and dark and in full view of the mourners.
Do other shipmates see this at all?
Is there a concern or am I being over-sensitive?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
What is the problem. Mudfrog?
The widow chose cremation: she must know that involves the body being burned and is old enough to realise that burning things can result in smoke.
Bodies need to be disposed of and in the UK this usually involves either burial or fire: fire is quicker - the body is reduced to bone and ash within a couple of hours - but can have the downside of releasing dioxins, albeit at very low levels, and some heavy metals from dental filling and other medical devices.
Burial takes far longer because we rely on the action of bacteria, the enzymes that naturally occur in the body and bacteria. Without a coffin a body takes roughly 12-15 years to decompose but encasing it in wood lengthens the process so it takes about 4 times as long.
Taking your squeamishness, we'd never have people walking through churchyards unless there were no molehills and no visible signs of worms. Be grateful we don't have 'sky burial'!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Have you lost anyone recently? Are you a minister? (I hope not, with your evident lack of grace). Do you have any compassion at all? Had I the time and if I could give a fuck about debating with you and your callous disregard for the grief of a 57 year old widow - who just happens to be my aunt, the deceased being my 60 year old uncle who died unexpectedly from 7 heart attacks in 2 days, I'd have called you to hell.
[ 07. March 2015, 17:49: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Mudfrog, announcing an intent not to call to Hell in inflammatory language does not belong in Purgatory, regardless of the circumstances. Either take it to Hell directly or keep your counsel.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Mudfrog: the smoke should not have happened.
According to the Statutory Regulations, "The aim should be to prevent any visible airborne and odorous emissions from any part of the process, as perceived by the regulator. This aim includes all sites regardless of location ... Emissions from cremations should in normal operation be free from visible smoke".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Mudfrog, I'm with you on this. I have seen similar, and as far as I'm concerned there is no reason why a well-run, well maintained cremator should belch smoke in that way.
There is no excuse for this to happen, and I know from personal experience how unnecessarily distressing it can be for relatives.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Mudfrog re the words. If it was a CofE funeral then they are the correct words for the committal even at the crematorium.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Mudfrog re the words. If it was a CofE funeral then they are the correct words for the committal even at the crematorium.
Fair enough. I don't go to many CofE services.
I do prefer ours though ('the elements').
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I'm sorry about your loss, Mudfrog, and the smoke. That would be really disturbing.
(Possibly TMI about cremation details:)
.
.
.
I want to be cremated and scattered at sea. In my heart, what I really want is a full, ritual cremation, outdoors--like a Hindu ceremony, or a Viking burning boat. The smoke would be an issue, but at least attendees would expect it. AIUI, Hindu cremations include herbs and flowers and such, which would affect the smoke--hopefully, for the better.
(End TMI.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Mudfrog re the words. If it was a CofE funeral then they are the correct words for the committal even at the crematorium.
It looks like we've copied the phrase from the Roman Catholic order of committal.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
I still don't know why we can't be buried standing up in a simple tube.
Where we lived in West Africa, people were traditionally buried sitting down, which meant a sort of L-shaped grave (i.e. there had to a space for the legs and feet to go).
Coffins were not used, but bodies were wrapped in large cloths - the number and richness thereof indicating the status sand wealth of the deceased. This could be problematic as people would buy, over the years, a stash of cloths which they would take to funerals - that could represent a large outlay for poorer people.
Professing Christians tended to be buried in the "European" way, in coffins, as there was a feeling that the traditional way had too many connotations which pagan funeral rites. [I leave it to others to judge whether this was right or wrong].
[ 08. March 2015, 07:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Mudfrog
No, I am not a minister: I grew up in a parsonage house (so next to a churchyard) and we learned the 'facts of death' as we grew up. And we were brought up to believe quote:
...in sure and certain hope of the Resurrection to eternal life, through our Lord Jesus Christ ... blessed are the dead which die in the Lord
I had to work damned hard to keep that thought in mind just over two years ago when my very-much loved other half died with no warning whatsoever; I was 55, our children were about to take their A levels.
I can tell you it is bloody hard telling your children their parent has died, sorting out a funeral without anyone to support you, having to be strong for your children, watching the coffin containing the body of your soul-mate disappear at the crematorium, and then going back to the Wake to thank people for coming. But you do it because you have to - not all of us have the luxury of nephews, nieces or other family to share the burden.
If you want to take me to hell - fine, feel free; I don't retract one word of what I said.
It is a British disease that we don't acknowledge the truth about things that make us feel uncomfortable - we are the world champions of euphemism (although some might call it hypocrisy).
Everyone dies and there is a need to respectfully dispose of our earthly body. BUT YOUR LOVED ONE ISN'T IN THE COFFIN - the thing that made your uncle 'him' went when the breath left his body. And if your aunt was with him when he died she will have realised that. And maybe when you are older, and perhaps are holding the hand of someone you love as they breathe their last, you too may realise that the soul/personality is separate from the body and goes when we stop breathing.
Your aunt had already said goodbye to the man she married - the funeral is just housekeeping and outward ceremony.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
I would like to apologise to you for using the F word in my post. I was very angry when I wrote it and had this been Facebook I would have edited the post heavily.
I acknowledge your own loss and hardship and sympathise with you.
However telling people like it is is not always the best thing to do. My family are not particularly religious, though my Aunt and Uncle seem to have discovered faith in the last few months.
I still stand by my complaint that the black smoke of my uncle's burning coffin and body should not have been visible to a family who 5 minutes before had witnessed the often-harrowing sight of curtains being closed. From a pastoral point of view such an unpleasant sight is simply not acceptable.
I sincerely hope that in real life, using facial expressions and tone of voice, you come across as more gracious and caring. To offer a simple practical and clinical response to death and bereavement is not what is required. Offering off-pat Bible verses, as if that makes everything OK, is also not enough.
I hope when your children cut their knees you rushed to comfort them rather than giving them a lecture on the coagulation process of the blood that is flowing from their cuts, telling them that it's to be expected and they'll get over it.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Do other shipmates see this at all?
Is there a concern or am I being over-sensitive?
Yes - the crem. where I usually officiate often has visible smoke,depending on the direction of the wind.
I perceive that most of the bereaved are concerned about other things such as, do the ashes get mixed up with somebody else?
I spent an afternoon 'downstairs' so I have watched the whole process and this is very useful for reassuring people about what goes on.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Mudfrog
Any smoke visible 5 minutes after the end of the service for your uncle would not have been from the cremation of your relative.
The process of checking paperwork takes at least 5 minutes before a coffin can be placed into a cremator.
A modern cremator discharges whatever smoke is produced (and likely to be very little) into a second chamber where it is re-ignited, usually mixed with water, so that any minute particles are trapped and only steam is left to come out of the chimney. This process will begin to happen approximately 30 minutes after the body is placed in the cremator.
Your comment about the curtains only confirms my belief that they are a vile thing: IMO it is better to watch the catafalque with the coffin either sinking through the floor or going through the doors at the back, rather than have the needless theatricality of curtains (often accompanied by wholly inappropriate muzak). After all, we don't have screens around a grave when a coffin is lowered into the earth, so why have curtains?
To the rest of your most recent post: quote:
From a pastoral point of view such an unpleasant sight is simply not acceptable.
And your pastoral experience is? I'd suggest it might be less than extensive, otherwise you'd realise that your aunt, having just been to her spouse's funeral, would have neither noticed nor cared about any vapour or smoke - the death of a partner concentrates the mind wonderfully on what really matters in life.
quote:
I sincerely hope that in real life, using facial expressions and tone of voice, you come across as more gracious and caring. To offer a simple practical and clinical response to death and bereavement is not what is required.
I was not offering a clinical response - you expressed a view about the sight of vapour at a crematorium immediately after your uncle's service and YOU asked if shipmates had a view or thought you were being over-sensitive; please don't solicit a view if you really only want your own validating.
Don't lecture me about what you presume to be my response to personal bereavement - which, dare I say, may well be rather more recent and life-changing than yours.
quote:
Offering off-pat Bible verses, as if that makes everything OK, is also not enough.
I'd never suggest it was - which is why I did no such thing. Don't look now but your ignorance is showing: the extract was from the Commendation in the Book of Common Prayer and the short prayer that follows. quote:
I hope when your children cut their knees you rushed to comfort them rather than giving them a lecture on the coagulation process of the blood that is flowing from their cuts, telling them that it's to be expected and they'll get over it.
How dare you.
I'd like to think you're very young - I can't think of any other explanation for such rudeness. If my children were ever so crass as to express themselves to a stranger in those terms I'd be mortified - and horrified if they'd done it once past the age of discretion.
FYI I didn't 'lose' anyone - they died. Loss implies carelessness - we valued each other far too much to heedlessly 'lose' each other. Again, perhaps when you are older you may appreciate the difference.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
L'organist: quote:
I was not offering a clinical response - you expressed a view about the sight of vapour at a crematorium immediately after your uncle's service and YOU asked if shipmates had a view or thought you were being over-sensitive; please don't solicit a view if you really only want your own validating.
She's definitely got you there, Mudfrog.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
My pastoral experience is 27 years as a Salvation Army officer who has done a heck of a lot of bereavement visits and funeral services, both for members and non-members. I have officiated at burials and I have have officiated at cremations.
I have listened to questions, watched grief take hold of people, seen stoicism, great faith and abject despair. I have sometimes been moved to tears whilst even conducting a service because of the sorrow of those sitting in front of me.
It is because of my experience and any sense of compassion that I feel I might have, that I would want to protect a person who has been bereaved from the shocking sight of black smoke rising from a crematorium chimney minutes after the service has ended.
Why do I assume that the smoke was related to our funeral? For the simple reason that there was no funeral there before my uncle's. And in any case, it would the the natural first assumption of anyone - especially the bereaved - that the smoke is linked to their loved one.
I am still disturbed at the "Who cares if there's smoke? He's dead!" attitude.
Our theology highlights compassion, it does not give us the right to say we needn't be sensitive about others' feelings.
[ 08. March 2015, 15:07: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
.. dark grey smoke begin to billow out from the tower which was, of course, the chimney.
What l'Organist said about the timing.
Professionally, I would suggest raising a complaint to the Operator (be it a Local Authority or private enterprise) and see what kind of response you receive. They should all have a formal complaints procedure. No need to involve the widow - you know what you saw. Search here against the postcode of the crem. Typically, the operator is required to ensure: quote:
1.7 All emissions in normal operation shall be free from visible smoke and in any case shall not exceed the equivalent of Ringelmann Shade 1 as described in British Standard BS 2742:1969.
1.8 All releases to air, other condensed water vapour, shall be free from visible emissions. All emissions to air shall be free from droplets
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Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
It must be because I come from a non-liturgical tradition that I missed the fact this is obviously the Blessed Sunday of Admin Referrals.
God knows if we want to make this a pissing contest about personal grief, experiences of death, bodies, and crematoria, I reckon I'm as well-placed as either of you and who knows who else here could outdo any of us.
Mudfrog, you have already been told that if you want to get personal, take it to Hell.
L'Organist, that applies to you too.
And to everyone else tempted to join in also.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Your comment about the curtains only confirms my belief that they are a vile thing: IMO it is better to watch the catafalque with the coffin either sinking through the floor or going through the doors at the back, rather than have the needless theatricality of curtains (often accompanied by wholly inappropriate muzak). After all, we don't have screens around a grave when a coffin is lowered into the earth, so why have curtains?
All but one of the funerals I've been to, the graveyard policy was no one gets to watch the coffin lowered. Survivors are to leave after the graveside service with the coffin still on the grass next to the hole.
My Dad refused to leave at the burial of his MIL, there was an argument, he said it's important for closure, they finally gave in and said OK but you have to stay 5 yards away and be silent, the grave workers don't like to be watched.
At his cremation they wanted us to leave with the urn in the hole but the hole not covered. We refused, again they said we had to stay at a distance and not talk.
At a friend's funeral we all left with the casket on a trolley beside the hole. It felt wrong, it still feels wrong years later. Different cemeteries.
The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish. I want a Jewish style burial - simple casket, participatory for any who want to participate. Lots of cemeteries seem opposed.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Yesterday I attended the funeral of my uncle. It was 'excellent'.
Anyway, after the service the family made their way to the crematorium for the brief committal.
Two things stuck in my mind.
Firstly the vicar used the 'wrong' words for the committal. ...
As we were chatting I looked up and to my absolute horror, saw dark grey smoke begin to billow out from the tower which was, of course, the chimney.
...
Do other shipmates see this at all?
Is there a concern or am I being over-sensitive?
I think that we obsess about the details of funerals, etc. because that is the only aspect of death that is within our control. There's also a sense that this is the "last chance" to interact with the deceased (which is wrong anyway, from a Christian POV.) Add in grief, and it's natural to get angry about the wrong words or the wrong flowers or whatever. This is just humans working though anger, denial and bargaining on the way to depression and acceptance.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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