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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Men and Women
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
Very generally, and based on western culture, who has it easier today, male or female? I still say male, though less so than in my youth (1970s). Main reason, a man is still seen as more authoritative and more listened to than an equivalent woman. Thoughts, discussion please. Can we lay off gender politics or feminist argument and language.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I suspect that last sentence may be a sticking point.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
If you want to discuss privilege at the level of an entire gender what other language is available other than gender politics?
[ 20. February 2015, 08:21: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I suspect that last sentence may be a sticking point.
Yes that did rather read as: I want to know your opinion. Please don't explain your opinion. Especially not using any words associated with arguing that men have had it better.
Are we just running a poll here? I choose M.
[ 20. February 2015, 08:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
If I had to be a man to "have it easier" I would rather have it harder.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
If I had to be a man to "have it easier" I would rather have it harder.
Men are disgusting creatures. Take it from a man. If you knew half the things we did...
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Discuss gender without going into gender politics? Hmm, this is certainly a tough one. Well, men tend to have hairier legs, don't they?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Very generally, and based on western culture, who has it easier today, male or female? I still say male, though less so than in my youth (1970s). Main reason, a man is still seen as more authoritative and more listened to than an equivalent woman. Thoughts, discussion please. Can we lay off gender politics or feminist argument and language.
I'm intrigued by the notion of an "equivalent woman". What would that be?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
We had a long conversation in the office yesterday about whether men or women fart more.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
So . . . let's discuss gender politics, but omit the gender politics? Ooookaaaayyy:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Very generally, [men being taller and heavier and tending to die younger than women, leaving women to live for longer periods of time on less money with higher expenses] and based on western culture [which differs in its very general treatment of the sexes from all other cultures very generally in degree but not necessarily in kind], who has it easier today [very generally, please define "easier"], male or female? <<snip>>
Thoughts, discussion please. Can we lay off gender politics or feminist argument and language.
Yeah, men have it easier, especially when they can define and limit the discussion of the relative status of the genders to terms more likely to make them look good.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I posted this as first response, and then chickened out - partly because I hadn't quite got the metaphor working properly.
Very generally, and based on southern UK conditions, is the winter weather easier today? I say yes, it's more so than in my youth (1960s). Main reason, there's far fewer winters with deep snow cutting off rural communities. Thoughts, discussion please. Can we lay off climate politics or change supporter argument and language.
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
Porridge, I'm actually a woman, and the wrong side of 55 at that, and limited education so pretty invisible.
Apologies. I was trying to establish which gender is believed to have it easier, if either, not whether this is right.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Tulfes--
It was that last sentence that was the problem. Sounded like maybe you were a guy who didn't care what women thought, and so forbade us using feminist terms.
Could you maybe start again? Maybe tell us what you remember of this from the '70s??
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Porridge, I'm actually a woman, and the wrong side of 55 at that, and limited education so pretty invisible.
Apologies. I was trying to establish which gender is believed to have it easier, if either, not whether this is right.
Hang on a minute, you wanted a discussion. If you want a discussion how can it be done without reference to gender politics or gender or, for that matter, politics?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
Thanks GK.
I grew up (born 1957) believing my brothers to be destined to have a "better" life, in terms of career, social status, general opportunities to explore the world etc than me. These beliefs were deeply ingrained in my psyche.
From the perspective of age 57, I don't believe men have itt "easier"overall. I think gender politics and feminism do not aid the discussion in helping men and women both to reach their potential. They tend to polarise discussion.
Sorry, I don't have the education of most folks on here but would be interested in replies which don't take the pisss.
Re western culture, I wasnt meaning to be western-centic, just that most westerners can't speak for other cultures.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Porridge, I'm actually a woman, and the wrong side of 55 at that, and limited education so pretty invisible.
Apologies. I was trying to establish which gender is believed to have it easier, if either, not whether this is right.
First, there's no shortage of women who wholeheartedly subscribe to and endorse prevailing societal norms, whether or not these happen to be sexist. I'm female, too, but we are all products, to some degree, of our culture(s) as well as of our experience.
Second, I'd venture to suggest that men generally and women generally have broadly different experience, based not simply on acculturation, but also on simple biology. Western women generally experience menses (I've read that women in third-world &/or technologically primitive cultures spend more of their lives pregnant & lactating (and die younger), & hence have little experience with menses); men do not have this experience at all, with all that it entails -- planning for it by securing supplies for it, keeping track of it, dealing with it, etc.
While some proportion of Western women do not experience pregnancy and childbirth, most do; men do not.
I frankly am at a loss as to how to compare such very different life experiences and determine which experience-set is "easier," especially when I don't understand what "easier" means in this context.
Lastly, I personally find it difficult to examine or discuss almost any phenomenon "in general." Perhaps this is a significant failing on my part, but to me, any "devils" that may be lurking in the wings almost always come firmly attached to details.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
Hi Porridge. You're previous post assumed I was male. I wasn't seeking to imply that so called sexist attitudes are only held by one gender.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I frankly am at a loss as to how to compare such very different life experiences and determine which experience-set is "easier," especially when I don't understand what "easier" means in this context.
I think it's hard to dispute the fact that a typical western woman will still have a harder time establishing herself as a leader in many careers than a similar man. It's better than it was, but the bias hasn't gone away.
On the other hand, I think it's harder for a man to take on primary childcare responsibilities than the equivalent woman. We have a couple of male shipmates who have taken on the traditional "stay-at-home mom" role while their wives have worked outside the home. They'd be better placed to comment than me, but I also know a couple of guys in real life who have been at-home dads, and there has been both a societal expectation that there must be something wrong with them for doing the woman's job, and also mother-and-baby groups not wanting some random guy to show up. Again, it's getting better.
Given than there are many traditionally male environments and fewer traditionally female ones, it's on average easier for men.
I agree with Porridge about the difficulties of comparing very different sets of life choices/experiences and asking which is easier. It's rather like the equal pay calculations that try to rank some job mostly done by men as "equivalent" to some different job mostly done by women, only much harder.
Is it "easier" to be a driving instructor or a plumber? That rather depends on the skills that you have - some individuals would find one or the other easier. "Easier" as a whole is hard to define.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
On the issue of "easier".
In ALL western societies (not the case, I believe, in eastern cultures, or most of them) male suicide rates are significantly (at least double) the female rate. Arguably this may reflect higher rates of mental illness, or untreated mental illness, in the male population . But it may also reflect a greater propensity on the part of the western make to check out of life. This does not support the contention that life (in general) is easier for the male than the female in western society.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
This does not support the contention that life (in general) is easier for the male than the female in western society.
Suicides are long tails. Using rare events like suicides to try to infer something about the bulk of the population from which those suicides come is problematic.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
This does not support the contention that life (in general) is easier for the male than the female in western society.
Actually, I would argue that it supports the contention that society tells males they're supposed to have a fantastic life, and that this makes the disappointments of an individual less-than-fantastic life harder to bear.
I'm painting with a very broad brush here (which is really how the thread is set up), but essentially, a man in a bad situation might feel he has failed as a man when a women in a similar situation might feel that this is a woman's lot in life.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
It's still a mans world.
If it were not so then tampons and sanitary towels would not be taxed as a luxury item.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
This does not support the contention that life (in general) is easier for the male than the female in western society.
Actually, I would argue that it supports the contention that society tells males they're supposed to have a fantastic life, and that this makes the disappointments of an individual less-than-fantastic life harder to bear.
I'm painting with a very broad brush here (which is really how the thread is set up), but essentially, a man in a bad situation might feel he has failed as a man when a women in a similar situation might feel that this is a woman's lot in life.
I was thinking about that today. I've worked with a few men who retired, and they basically seemed to drop dead from the shock. Something about now being useless, since they're not working, and work gives you value above all things.
But I would not generalize from this about men and women overall - I don't have the knowledge to do that.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
I wouldn't generalise about these things Q. My father enjoyed 30 years of happy life after leaving the workforce before death got him.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
I wouldn't generalise about these things Q. My father enjoyed 30 years of happy life after leaving the workforce before death got him.
Yes, funny you should say that, did you notice that bit where I said 'I would not generalize about this'? Bit of a coincidence, eh?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
I wouldn't generalise about these things Q. My father enjoyed 30 years of happy life after leaving the workforce before death got him.
Yes, funny you should say that, did you notice that bit where I said 'I would not generalize about this'? Bit of a coincidence, eh?
No, I'm a stupid women. I wouldn't generalise from my example that all women are stupid, though. I just don't know all women.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I think the question is hard to answer because in many ways it's comparing apples w/ oranges, because the spheres where women are disadvantaged are different from the spheres where men are disadvantaged.
off the top of my head (not taking time to check these out-- just going by what I believe studies will show-- someone with the inclination to do the research may find I'm incorrect)
in terms of workplace, for the most part women are disadvantaged over men in a variety of measurable ways. (eg: I mentioned a study on the "offenderati" thread showing female professors are routinely ranked lower by students even before they say anything-- they have less "positional authority" and have to earn respect, whereas male profs are given default authority/respect that is theirs to lose. I've had similar experiences as a female clergyperson). Women are infamously paid less than men, which may be attributed either to unconscious sexism or to women's (perhaps conditioned by society) tendency to accept what is offered rather than asking for what they want. And yet, occasionally it works the other way-- I've had some workplace advantages when a univ. was making an attempt to increase faculty diversity, leading to more hiring of women.
Similarly, in the homefront, women tend to take on more household/ parenting responsibility than men (although the gap is closing)-- again, for a variety of reasons. But men appear to me to have fewer socially-approved choices in the work/home divide. Both are subject to lots of second guessing/criticism re their choices in how they manage that balance, but it seems like it plays out in different ways.
In the US, joint custody is the norm following a divorce, but women tend to get the majority of time with kids even with that divide. Women usually end up lowering their standard of living following a divorce, men usually find their financial situation improved.
In terms of health, women of course live longer, but are far more likely to live in poverty than men. Men are more likely to be the victims of random violence, women more likely to be the victims of domestic violence.
These are all such disparate sorts of advantages/ disadvantages, it's hard to say which is better or worse. Probably the pain/suffering you personally are experiencing is the worst.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Yeah, I am not at all hesitant to say men have it easier as a group. No, it is not a clean comparison, few things are. But in aggregate, it is still more difficult for women.
BTW, I would add myself to the list of those frustrated by the limitations set in the OP.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Do women always feel some sort of risk from men? My discussions with many lead me to believe that this is a substantial difference between men and women. Whereas I think nothing of walking in the dark many blocks to get somewhere, many women seem to hesitate when I wouldn't. I would like to understand if this perception of risk is actually common, or is filtered through my perception.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Do women always feel some sort of risk from men? My discussions with many lead me to believe that this is a substantial difference between men and women. Whereas I think nothing of walking in the dark many blocks to get somewhere, many women seem to hesitate when I wouldn't. I would like to understand if this perception of risk is actually common, or is filtered through my perception.
Speaking for myself: yes. And that certainly impacts quality of life issues.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Do women always feel some sort of risk from men? My discussions with many lead me to believe that this is a substantial difference between men and women. Whereas I think nothing of walking in the dark many blocks to get somewhere, many women seem to hesitate when I wouldn't. I would like to understand if this perception of risk is actually common, or is filtered through my perception.
Speaking for myself, no, but it does depend on time, place, and the behaviour of anyone in view. I suppose, however, that I do do a sort of risk probability assessment as I travel around, but it's very minor, and mostly unconscious. It will flag up the odd footsteps, or the taxi parked at 2am in an odd place, or the face that's always the same distance away and always looking at me, but I don't go round looking or listening for those things.
I have a male friend who does the same sort of thing since he got jumped by a mugger on the western borders of Dulwich (for those who don't know, this is a supposedly posh part of South London). He had noticed the guy following him, and thought that it would'nt be good to let the man think he had been listening to the Met chief constable that week about the prevalence of black muggers, so carried on his way until grabbed. The ensuing struggle ended when a nice black woman got out of a taxi and shouted, and the mugger ran off.
So now there isn't much difference between this female and the nearest male she knows about.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
On the safety tangent, I must confess that on a personal level I've never entirely got the "It's alright for you, you're a bloke, you can walk wherever you want whenever you want without fear" thing.
As in, I get it in theory. Further, I have always, and I hope always will, "walked home" (or drive, often, these days) female friends when they would otherwise be going home alone. Partly out of some good old-fashioned [sexism]|[politeness], and partly because I do get that women are not as 'safe' as men, in general, especially at night, and the consequences of attack are potentially very different.
But ... by the same token, I have never, ever walked anywhere by myself, or even in a small group, without being aware of the surroundings, of hiding places, of other people, of noises, of the potential for the unwanted. Tonight I'll be doing Street Pastors in an essentially nice town. But on the way there, and on the way back, I'll be attuned to the various potential threats to myself, and I'm a 6'4" fairly heavyset weirdy beardy bloke. Maybe I'm just nesh.
All of that said: on balance, in the bigger picture, I would say that yes, men do still have it easier than women. Maybe not everywhere, and maybe the playing field is levelling in a number of areas which is what can provoke some of the "not all men" kind of reactions, but for the General Person in the General Case, yeah, it seems a whole bunch easier to be a boy, even if we bitch about it sometimes.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Not nesh at all--there are such things as knives, guns...
In my experience (and I've done a few ibformal polls, mostly in university classrooms), most men (not all) show less watchfulness on average in situations like walking alone after dark, going into an alley, etc. compared to most women. There are individual exceptions to anything, of course. But when we've done the handraising thing in my classrooms, almost all of the women raise their hands when asked "Do you routinely park under a light... carry your keys pointy edge outward through your fingers... pay attention to footsteps behind you... avoid getting on an elevator with a single male stranger?" And most of the men (hey, they're mostly under 30) look at their classmates as if they've suddenly grown two heads. Nice guys, all of them. Just not brought up to be aware of dangers like the women are.
I think for a lot of men it takes an attack to change their usual level of awareness. That, or a new vulnerability, like a disability, old age, or being suddenly landed with a little child to shepherd and protect.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Discuss gender without going into gender politics? Hmm, this is certainly a tough one. Well, men tend to have hairier legs, don't they?
But hardly any of us shave them.
However our chin stubble is really tough.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
To return briefly to the suicide stats: I've read that, beginning with conception, males outnumber females. By old age, though, females outnumber males.
Some 105 boys are born for every 100 girls. But boys succumb more readily to disease in infancy.
Boys still outnumber girls in pubescence. But in adolescence, boys take more risks, are more accident-prone, etc.
An old book, The Hazards of Being Male (I don't recall the author), suggests that being male takes a greater emotional toll on guys than being female takes on gals. Men are more socially restricted in when and how and to what extent they're permitted emotional expression, especially anger, especially toward women. Whether any of this holds actual scientific water (then or now), I have no idea. But I seem to recall a Presidential candidate losing his chance because he was seen to cry.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Main reason, a man is still seen as more authoritative and more listened to than an equivalent woman.
Oh, yeah? Come hang out in my home a while with me and the Mrs.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
We had a long conversation in the office yesterday about whether men or women fart more.
I'd suspect it would be about the same but men consider it a skill.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Main reason, a man is still seen as more authoritative and more listened to than an equivalent woman.
Oh, yeah? Come hang out in my home a while with me and the Mrs.
Cute. But the reality I've experienced in academia and in the pastorate is not nearly so funny.
Just one example: visiting elderly parishioner in hospital. She sighs and tells me how much she appreciates my taking the time to visit her, then complains (to my face) that she has received no pastoral visit.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Additional anecdotal evidence and some quantitative research available upon request.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
Interesting insight, cliffdweller. I'd be interested in hearing more anecdotal evidence from the pastorate or any other occupation.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
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Posted
Unless it's a traditionally male or traditionally female environment reluctant to change, then the minority gender in an environment tends to be noticed more and as a result carries greater influence.
Posts: 97 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Mar 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
Unless it's a traditionally male or traditionally female environment reluctant to change, then the minority gender in an environment tends to be noticed more and as a result carries greater influence.
I would say the reverse is true. The majority gender* is the one that fits the mental picture of the career professional-- they "look like" a doctor or a nurse or a professor or a pastor. That carries with it a great deal positional authority-- a default assumption that benefits the person the moment they walk into the room before they even open their mouth. For the minority gender who doesn't "look like" the career professional they have to earn that respect through what they say or do. It can be done, but they need to prove they deserve that respect rather than being granted it as a function of their position. All this happening on the subconscious level-- few people would actually say "I trust male doctors/ lawyers/ professors more than female" (although curiously they WILL say that about pastors)-- it's more of a subconscious leaning. Which makes it all the more subtle and subversive.
*the same is probably true to some degree of majority/minority racial/ethnic differences.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Again, see my link above to a study that has found this very effect among college professors. While higher ed could be deemed a "traditionally male" work environment, it's definitely not one that is resistant to change-- most universities in the US are eager to demonstrate diversity in faculty hiring. Yet the factor I described above- the absence of "positional authority" for female faculty-- has been demonstrated to be a significant factor in lower student ratings for female faculty. Again, it's overcome-able, but comprises an additional hurdle for women that men in the same role do not have to worry about.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, it's overcome-able, but comprises an additional hurdle for women that men in the same role do not have to worry about.
Is there any point in me mentioning the many roles in which the same problem exists but with the sexes reversed? Roles such as teaching, nursing/midwifery, childcare, etc?
Both sexes have to face additional hurdles in some areas of their lives, but for some reason that's only seen as a problem when women are the ones facing them. Which is, in itself, an extra hurdle that men have to face...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Anecdotal stuff, but I remember being the first woman executive in a church environment. Male visitors routinely handed me sheaves of paper as they walked in, with orders to make photocopies. Usually without a please.
I generally said "Yes, sir" in an ironic tone, and disappeared to do it, leaving my colleagues to explain what asses they had just made of themselves. And in so many ways.
[ 20. February 2015, 22:40: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Suicides are long tails. Using rare events like suicides to try to infer something about the bulk of the population from which those suicides come is problematic.
Ahem. Something that is the main cause of death of men between ages of 20 and 49 is not a 'rare event'.
Link
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, it's overcome-able, but comprises an additional hurdle for women that men in the same role do not have to worry about.
Is there any point in me mentioning the many roles in which the same problem exists but with the sexes reversed? Roles such as teaching, nursing/midwifery, childcare, etc?
Both sexes have to face additional hurdles in some areas of their lives, but for some reason that's only seen as a problem when women are the ones facing them. Which is, in itself, an extra hurdle that men have to face...
Absolutely (I noted that in an earlier post). But it plays out very differently between the two role reversals-- which is why I said in some ways comparing the hurdles for men and women is like comparing apples and oranges-- they're just very different.
And sometimes it works the reverse way. When I was a full-time pastor and my husband was a full-time stay at home dad, my congregants (especially older women) would marvel at his ability to do things they took for granted among women: He takes care of THREE kids PLUS he teaches Sunday School AND read the Scripture text last Sunday!!!! As if he were a fish riding a bicycle. They had zero expectations for him as "pastor's husband"-- basically because he was the first "pastor's husband" they'd ever seen-- so anything at all he accomplished was a miraculous treat. Whereas the spouses of my male colleagues found the unwritten job description for "pastor's wife" to be endless and fraught with all sorts of contradictions and narrow tightropes ("be involved in everything but don't meddle or take over"; "come to every function and volunteer for every task but don't neglect your children"...)
[ 20. February 2015, 23:09: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
Really interesting observations, cliffdweller. A lot of problems for female pastors and for wife's of male pastors seem to flow from the expectations and gender stereotyping of female church people.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Really interesting observations, cliffdweller. A lot of problems for female pastors and for wife's of male pastors seem to flow from the expectations and gender stereotyping of female church people.
I think the stereotypes just play out differently. Male parishioners more often would simply look down on hubby because he didn't have a "real" job (wasn't earning a paycheck). Female parishioners were more likely to value the work he did both at home and volunteering at church, but marveled at seeing a man do something they took for granted among men.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, it's overcome-able, but comprises an additional hurdle for women that men in the same role do not have to worry about.
Is there any point in me mentioning the many roles in which the same problem exists but with the sexes reversed?
Perhaps, if you mention a good example. Instead, you mention subordinate jobs and one that men have traditionally not wanted.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Roles such as teaching,
Yeah, for the little ones. Which sex, I wonder, has traditionally dominated the universities?
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
nursing/midwifery,
The lower rungs of the medical system. What, think you, the male/female ratio of doctors has been?
It is changing, but still not equal.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
childcare,
The job that men have traditionally avoided and women had no choice in? Yes, men are often shorted in this area, but that is because they have spent so much effort in defining it as a female job.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
etc?
I'd welcome any etcetera you might have that more effectively illustrates your POV.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Both sexes have to face additional hurdles in some areas of their lives, but for some reason that's only seen as a problem when women are the ones facing them.
Because women face more of them.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Which is, in itself, an extra hurdle that men have to face...
Perhaps they can wipe their tears with the extra banknotes they earn for the same jobs.
If you wish to say it is not all puppies and rainbows for men, I will agree with you. But if you wish to say things, on balance, are equitable....not so much.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Very generally, and based on western culture, who has it easier today, male or female? I still say male, though less so than in my youth (1970s). Main reason, a man is still seen as more authoritative and more listened to than an equivalent woman. Thoughts, discussion please. Can we lay off gender politics or feminist argument and language.
I understand why you would want to lay off the feminist argument and language; it so often creates an in-group (people who have gone to college and taken a/multiple women's studies classes) and an out-group (people who haven't). But I don't generally find it helpful to think in terms of 'who has it easier'? I'm more interested in looking at the challenges people face and the barriers to their success and how those barriers can be removed in a way that's fair to everyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Do women always feel some sort of risk from men? My discussions with many lead me to believe that this is a substantial difference between men and women. Whereas I think nothing of walking in the dark many blocks to get somewhere, many women seem to hesitate when I wouldn't. I would like to understand if this perception of risk is actually common, or is filtered through my perception.
Speaking for myself, no, but it does depend on time, place, and the behaviour of anyone in view. I suppose, however, that I do do a sort of risk probability assessment as I travel around, but it's very minor, and mostly unconscious. It will flag up the odd footsteps, or the taxi parked at 2am in an odd place, or the face that's always the same distance away and always looking at me, but I don't go round looking or listening for those things.
Same here. I think I may feel a bit more threatened than most of the men I know when one of those things happens since I have less ability to physically defend myself should it be necessary. But there's not a significant difference between how my male friends act and how I act. And being in the US even feeling more threatened is probably unjustified as a lot of random crime is going to involve a weapon.
And in general, no, I don't always feel some kind of risk from men. I'm frequently wary of men I don't particularly know until I get a sense of their temper and worldviews, but I don't think that's the same thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
In my experience (and I've done a few ibformal polls, mostly in university classrooms), most men (not all) show less watchfulness on average in situations like walking alone after dark, going into an alley, etc. compared to most women. There are individual exceptions to anything, of course. But when we've done the handraising thing in my classrooms, almost all of the women raise their hands when asked "Do you routinely park under a light... carry your keys pointy edge outward through your fingers... pay attention to footsteps behind you... avoid getting on an elevator with a single male stranger?" And most of the men (hey, they're mostly under 30) look at their classmates as if they've suddenly grown two heads. Nice guys, all of them. Just not brought up to be aware of dangers like the women are.
And yet parking under a light, carrying your keys pointy edge outward through your fingers, and avoiding getting on an elevator with a single male stranger aren't signs of watchfulness (which is attempting to spot a threat or danger), they're signs of defensiveness (showing that one is going to fight back and not be easy prey). As such, most of the people I know don't bother with them.
As signs of watchfulness, they're pretty useless, since the majority of sexual assaults (which is generally the danger their paranoid mothers are trying to protect them from) actually come from people the women know. A lot of the others are people breaking in to where you live.
On the street, mostly people point a gun at you in order to get your money. And that happens regardless of gender, if you're in the wrong neighborhood and there's nobody else around.
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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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