Ship of Fools: Last of the "Angola Three"

Thread: Last of the "Angola Three" Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

Has anyone not heard of Albert Woodfox? In solitary confinement for 43 years in a Louisiana jail, his latest bail hearing is due in a few days time. I'll link to one of the many internet sites as soon as I can. I'm still in the process of collecting as much info. as possible.

Two question are beginning to form in my mind - which might take us to Hell.

1. How can a humane society treat any human being in this manner?

2. How can any society that does sanction or tolerate such treatment call itself humane, or civilised, or worth any consideration from societies that truly are?

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

This should take you to the heart of the matter.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

There's a big appeal on the home page of Amnesty International. I used their teaching pack on the death penalty earlier this academic year and found the cases all pretty horrific. We have had another case, that of Robert Ladd highlighted recently in All Saints as a prayer thread.

By the way, the teaching pack doesn't say so, but Troy Davis was executed, even though there were many doubts about the conviction.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Quite simple. A country that relies on the death penalty, despite the overwhelming proof that the convictions are often racially biased or wrong for other reasons, is not a civilized country.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

Horseman Bree, if you are intent on making this into a US-bashing thread, you can expect adminly attention in a lot less time than it takes to cross the border. As can anyone else inclined to fuel pond or 49th parallel wars.

/hosting

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

Thank you, Eutychus.

Just as a point of information, the U.S. government supports capital punishment, as does the U.S. military. That isn't the whole picture, however.

Eighteen of 50 US states have abolished the death penalty, my own, alas, not among them. Despite my state's House voting to abolish capital punishment while I was in office, our Senate overruled us. That said, no one has been executed in my state since 1939 (though there is one inmate currently on our death row). I believe several other states are in similar positions.

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/

Horseman Bree, if you are intent on making this into a US-bashing thread, you can expect adminly attention in a lot less time than it takes to cross the border. As can anyone else inclined to fuel pond or 49th parallel wars.

/hosting

I think I should be the one to apologise, since Horseman Bree was only addressing the specific questions I asked in the OP.

Perhaps I can widen the issue, philosophically. If, for evil to exist, it is only necessary for good men to do nothing, where does the buck stop?

How many good men in Louisiana allow this evil in their midst?

How many good men in the USA at large allow Louisiana to sanction the evil, in the name of - what - freedom? Democracy?

How many good men in England are content to leave the matter to the good men of America, in the name of sovereignty, autonomy, and the fact that we are, and will be indefinitely, in hock to them?

It's not Yank-bashing. Nor is it breastbeating. I just can't go on convincing myself that it's just tough shit, shit happens, and I can't cure all the world's ills.

There's got to be a more positive attitude. How many good Englishmen (and the "men" throughout this post are shorthand for "people") would it take to convince enough good Americans that they don't have to live with this; that there are enough good people in Louisiana to change the racist and bigoted culture that seems to be demanded by the red-necked few, into a civilized society that Louisiana, the USA, and the world at large can be proud of?

This is a big forum, and we could make a difference. Or not. But -oops! I think running a campaign is against the rules, isn't it? I'd appreciate a hostly direction on this.

[ 22. February 2015, 15:30: Message edited by: pimple ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
But -oops! I think running a campaign is against the rules, isn't it?

It most certainly is: see Commandment 8.

Discussing capital punishment is fine. Discussing what makes a nation civilised or not is fine. Discussing how "good men" might or might not make a difference is also fine.

Sweepingly saying a particular nation is not civilised is not fine, especially if doing so is liable to ignite historic antagonisms (a little history here: back in the mists of Ship time, before my time even, there was a pond war to end all pond wars that nearly ended the Ship. We've been keen to stave off another one or anything like it ever since).

PSA over.

/hosting

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

OK. So the United States is not uncivilised.
There are plenty of Americans trying to get justice for Albert Woodfox.

Can friends across the pond please explain why that is so difficult? Miscarriages of justice occur from time to time in the most civilised of societies. We still have slavery in the United Kingdom.

But 43 years? I don't get it. The point is, if it can happen in America, it could happen here. We both have very lucrative penal systems.

[ 23. February 2015, 21:48: Message edited by: pimple ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
pimple: Miscarriages of justice occur from time to time in the most civilised of societies.

I don't agree that the US is uncivilised, but I wouldn't call this a 'miscarriage of justice'. That would suggest that the system itself is just, there just has been an error or corruption or something in applying it. But the way I understand it, this man has been in solitary confinement for 43 years because the system itself is injust.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
We still have slavery in the United Kingdom.

Wait what how?? [Eek!]

Or do you mean human trafficking which is illegal but takes place only until it's found out and stopped?

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
How many good men in the USA at large allow Louisiana to sanction the evil, in the name of - what - freedom? .

Just a point of information, which you are likely already aware of: only the voters of LA can change LA laws. (or, perhaps, the supreme court. But that's the trickier way) my state hasn't officially killed people since statehood (we're barbaric in other ways) so I have exactly zero say in whether people in LA are executed.

Well, I have as much say as you. I could write letters. Support AI (which I do) and pray. But the good people of the USA at large are no more influential than you are. Except for those registered to vote in louisiana.

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

Firstly, it's not about capital punishment. It's about 40-odd years in solitary confinement.
Secondly, it's not about the laws sanctioned by Louisiana voter. It's about the way some dickheads are abusing them. Thirdly, it's about whether "it's their law/culture, not ours" gives us the moral right to say nothing about it.

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
We still have slavery in the United Kingdom.
Wait what how?? Or do you mean human trafficking which is illegal but takes place only until it's found out and stopped?

Try this

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

Or This (sorry for cock-up above)

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
pimple: Secondly, it's not about the laws sanctioned by Louisiana voter. It's about the way some dickheads are abusing them.

I don't understand this part. Is 43 year solitary legal in Louisiana or not?

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

You tell me. A respected (US) authority has categorised this level of punishment as torture.
Click on the link in my sig.

[ 25. February 2015, 22:35: Message edited by: pimple ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
pimple: You tell me. A respected (US) authority has categorised this level of punishment as torture.

Yes, that's good. But what does Louisiana law say?

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

Good point. Woodfox's convictions have been reversed, the State of Louisiana is appealing, and
an application for bail has been made pending the outcome. Under any reasonable legal system, a man in this situation is "innocent until proven - or reproven - guilty", and bail is possible, I believe, under LA law. So I say again, it's a matter of how the law is applied, not the basic system itself that is at fault - or so I hope.

The other point is that although in some states "life" can mean incarceration forever, there is usually an understanding that inmates should be treated humanely.

[ 25. February 2015, 22:45: Message edited by: pimple ]

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

This doesn't answer questions about state-by-state legality, but does claim solitary confinement is a violation of human rights.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

California's Pelican Bay State Prison* is so bad that it literally drives inmates insane. People have been trying to get changes for years. AIUI, there is some slooowwwww progress. I'll let you look that up.

*I believe there's also one by that name in another state.

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

"How very different from the land of our own dear Queen!" Apparently not. Our own Government is planning a massive detention centre for illegal immigrants/remand prisoners (from memory - I need to check the precise facts on this). Suicides will be rife, even in our relatively humane shires. I'll come back with details later.

Meanwhile Albert Woodfox has been publicly branded as a serial rapist by the brain-dead goon determined to keep him locked up. Woddfox has never been charged, let alone convicted, of rape.
He has a lot of support building up for him though, and I'm confident that he'll survive. Justice? Hardly, it's too late for that. But
I have a (perhaps naïve) belief that evil eventually destroys itself.

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