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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: IngoB knows best
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
OK, I know it's a totally futile exercise, but I'm pissed off right now.
Once again we have IngoB butting his head into a thread just to tell us what we should do. In this case, the UK election thread to tell us we should adopt the German electoral system. Which he claims is oh so much better than the UKs system.
I originally posted the following paragraph on the UK election thread. It's not very Hellish, but it's not Purgatorial either.
Now stop telling us all how your system would be so much better than what we have. I don't want to have German style PR, I don't want to convert to the Catholic Church, we don't need you to tell us how to run a discussion forum.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
I always respond to my Hell calls, at length, but this one is just too lame and bullshit. Have at it all you will, this will be my only contribution to this particular Hell call.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Do what you like. You know best.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Do what you like. You know best.
Ain't that just so. Bingo *does* know best, hence the repeated posts on how to run a bulletin board asnd now, how to run representative democracy.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Ingo is always right. We should support him as the brightest and best of all. I dare anyone to find a specific time when he's been wrong. Because you can't.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
OK. So, when do the boys with the violin cases turn up? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 08. May 2015, 13:32: Message edited by: jacobsen ]
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I think I may need to take a ship break as the last two threads I've read IngoB's opinion on I have agreed with him.
He's right, its an absolute fuck up of a representative parliamentary democracy and it NEEDS to change.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Ingo for Pope! Because he's already infallible.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
I think I may need to take a ship break as the last two threads I've read IngoB's opinion on I have agreed with him.
He's right, its an absolute fuck up of a representative parliamentary democracy and it NEEDS to change.
Anyone who thinks the distribution of representatives is unfair should look at the distribution of wealth.
Now what needs sorting out? And which needs sorting out first?
[ 08. May 2015, 13:56: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
FPTP sucks, produces false, phony majorities and is based on antiquated property rights. I can't wait for Canada to get rid of it and the UK should do the same.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Yeah, thing is, you have to figure out what you replace it with as well.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Some form of PR should do the trick nicely.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh well, that clears it up mightily. I look forward to writing a law that says the electoral system is "some form of PR".
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Single transferable vote for the mp, with the 1st vote percentages used for allcation of peers in the upper house - who then get their power of veto restored. Together with a block of ? Peers to include one each of all the major metaphysical* groupings in the country and a set of folk selected on the jury service principle - this 'independent' block would change mid-term between elections. (And federate the union and all other terretories we actually administrate, such as Jersey, Isle of man, Gibraltar etc.)
*i.e. Includes prominent humanist, atheist and agnostic - data from census could be used to define what is a major tradition.
[ 08. May 2015, 15:25: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Fuck off, orfeo. As you know the devil is in the details.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
Especially the little detail that it is very hard to devise a PR electoral system that does not hand disproportionate power to small parties in the coalition-building process. Is the Israeli system fairer than ours?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
FPTP sucks, produces false, phony majorities and is based on antiquated property rights. I can't wait for Canada to get rid of it and the UK should do the same.
You still have scot and lot in Canada? Wow!
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Single transferable vote for the mp, with the 1st vote percentages used for allcation of peers in the upper house - who then get their power of veto restored. Together with a block of ? Peers to include one each of all the major metaphysical* groupings in the country and a set of folk selected on the jury service principle - this 'independent' block would change mid-term between elections. (And federate the union and all other terretories we actually administrate, such as Jersey, Isle of man, Gibraltar etc.)
*i.e. Includes prominent humanist, atheist and agnostic - data from census could be used to define what is a major tradition.
I'd prefer that each voter rank orders the candidates. If your #1 is out, your vote is allocated to your number 2, until a candidate has a majority of the votes.
Our Senate, which is modelled on your Lords, needs to be abolished. It is a trough for rich louts to feed from and then when fully fed to windbag from. Deflate it. I'd replace it for Canada with a council of the provincial and territorial leaders. Some sort of similar might help with the regions of the UK which feel alienated?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
That *is* a single transferable vote no prophet.
[ 08. May 2015, 22:37: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
He's right, its an absolute fuck up of a representative parliamentary democracy and it NEEDS to change.
Yes, it's a fucked up system that needs to change.
That doesn't mean that therefore the solution IngoB happens to believe in is automatically the way to reform the system, just because Ingo says it is.
Besides, the angst on the UK election thread wasn't primarily directed at the electoral system. When it comes down to it, I think it's right that a party that polls 37% of the vote in a multi-party system should form the government with a small majority. The bit that's fucked up is that the UK population for some absurd reason consider the Tories to be the best people to lead the country. Not to forget the 3.8 million people who felt it appropriate to vote for the fucking UKIP nazi party.
Why did so many people put their cross next to the Tory? Why did they vote for another 5 years of relentless dismantlement of the health service, welfare and education. Another 5 years of pointless excess austerity smothering economic recovery. Another 5 years of good news for the wealthy while the number of people reliant on food banks continues to grow.
What it says about our country that we have so many people voting for the end of all that's great about Great Britain is profoundly depressing.
So, no it wasn't helpful for Ingo to wade in with his "I know it best" attitude to say what we need is to adopt the German electoral system. As though that would fix things. Yeah, we'd still have a Tory government intent on screwing the life blood out of the poor to swell their own wallets. But, we'd lose a lot of the left wing from Parliament - one Green and 50 odd SNP MPs - to gain a few Tory-lite Labour MPs and a dozen UKIP nazis.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Fuck off, orfeo. As you know the devil is in the details.
I do know. Which is precisely why it does my head in that some people are translating "FPTP sucks" into "I agree with Ingo". Because Ingo is proposing a specific alternative.
I know you personally didn't explicitly say "I agree with Ingo".
[ 09. May 2015, 01:23: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
This is not at all what I was expecting Bingo's newest hell call to be about. That that it makes any difference -- he's a jerk no matter where he posts.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
He's right, its an absolute fuck up of a representative parliamentary democracy and it NEEDS to change.
Yes, it's a fucked up system that needs to change.
That doesn't mean that therefore the solution IngoB happens to believe in is automatically the way to reform the system, just because Ingo says it is.
Was Ingo right in saying the German electoral system is better than the British?
Yes.
Would the German PR system solve all the problems?
No.
As someone who has the unusual privilege in voting in both a FPTP and PR national parliamentary election this year (UK and CH), I'm able to make some hands-on comparisons.
In Switzerland, the PR constituencies are based on the cantons. Since I live in a large canton, PR gives me the distinct advantage of being to select members from 20 odd parties lists and have the satisfaction of knowing that my vote will count - unless I select a super minor party. I can even mix parties if I want by constructing my own list of representatives. On the other hand, I have no direct representative, I have around 30! This has the severe drawback that I have no representative who feels a strong connection or responsibility for me or my particular area. With of my 30 representatives each representing an area of 1 million, none of them is ever going to come chapping on my door to get our my vote. I will never have the vent of being able tell any of them that they screwed up. Instead, they smile at me in their dozens from road-side billboards.
Nevertheless, on balance, I think PR is better, as it brings more political voices to the table and tends to work against landslides (and in mountainous Switzerland the political landscape is particularly stable). This means that politicians generally propose longer policies which do not necessarily deliver votes in the next parliament - and are more easily handed on to a future government.
Although it has come up for a lot of criticism, the constitution of the Scottish parliament, with its direct representation and its corrective PR-based regional representation is a noteworthy model, as it still maintains constituency responsibility normally lost under the PR model, but nevertheless brings a more representative mix of political currents into decision-taking debates.
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Why did so many people put their cross next to the Tory? Why did they vote for another 5 years of relentless dismantlement of the health service, welfare and education. Another 5 years of pointless excess austerity smothering economic recovery. Another 5 years of good news for the wealthy while the number of people reliant on food banks continues to grow.
As so often, The Daily Mash nails it.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which he claims is oh so much better than the UKs system.
It is.
So are Germany's trains, buses, trams and cycle lanes.
It's health system works better than ours too.
Then there's the industry and engineering.
Oh, and Sundays. No trucks are allowed to move on Sundays. No mowers or strimmers or noisy garden equipment to be used. No tipping your bottles into recycling if it makes a noise. Most shops are closed.
Sundays in Germany are peaceful, rest days.
Then there's the Weißbier – bliss!
What's not to like?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
For many years I have been in favour of electoral reform and have contemplated German or New Zealand style PR systems. But I have to say this election has shaken my belief in it.
UKIP, would have won 70 seats if this had been a purely PR system and God-knows how many if it had been the German federal system. Germany already has neo-Nazis elected, many other countries have Pirate Parties which some worry are havens if fascist supporters. Greece has an openly neo-Nazi party. And so on.
As a naturally Green-leaning person, I am disgusted by the British system. As someone who deplores the rise of nationalism, Neo-Nazis, anti-Semites and those who spread racial lies and hatred, I feel some appreciation of a system which forces minor parties to get to a high bar of support before they get their hands on the levers of power. Possibly more appreciation than ever before - however awful a Tory majority will be (and be clear, it is going to be really bad) it is going to be a lot better than a Tory coalition led to the extremes by 70 UKIP MPs.
Am I glad to live in the UK today than with the result the German electoral system would have given? Fuck yes.
On Deano - I suspect like many deluded supporters of the Tories and UKIP he has failed to realise that beyond the rhetoric, these nasty parties have nothing to offer him than worse public services, increased privatisation of a working health service, the destruction of pensions, attacks on the old, disabled and sick and pandering to the rich and powerful. Unless Deano happens to be in the richest 20% of the population of the country, the Tories do not give a shit about him beyond the Mr Spock mind games they've been able to conjour on him to put a cross on the right bit of paper. Come back in 5 years and tell us how well the Tory government went for you and your deluded gang of friends, Deano. If you are really lucky, someone else might still be here.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Sorry I seem to have muddled two hell calls. Points still stand.
And Ingo is still an arse.
[ 09. May 2015, 19:38: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Shame nobody has designed an electoral system that gives the proper sort of extremists their fair share of seats in parliament while completely shutting out those crazy bastards at the other end of the spectrum. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Shame nobody has designed an electoral system that gives the proper sort of extremists their fair share of seats in parliament while completely shutting out those crazy bastards at the other end of the spectrum.
Indeed.
Anyway, I doubt that the UKIP vote would be as strong under another type of system, or in a case where they already had some representation in Parliament.
Here in Australia, we've had at least one protest party explode and evaporate (Pauline Hanson's One Nation) and another one in the process of exploding and evaporating right now (Clive Palmer's "Palmer United" Party, which has been anything but united as its official membership has shrunk from 4 to 2 since the last election).
Parties at the fringe that don't impress once they're actually elected tend to get wiped out the next time around.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
One excellent example was when Haider's FPÖ became a junior coalition partner in the Austrian government sometime back in the late 90s. I was delighted - not because I liked them, but because I was sure this was their opportunity to show how much they were worth. And indeed, within months they had become as tarnished as any other political party.
For that reason I think it is generally good to give extremist parties the chance to exercise responsibility in controlled conditions (i.e. before taking the power which makes them the key player). Normally such parties work very strongly with symbols. Their supporters and members project all sorts of meaning into these symbols, and when they so gain power they have to come clean on what their symbols are actually all about. That is usually the moment the bickering starts and the movement collapses. For that alone I think the lone UKIP MP might be worth a junior cabinet post.
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
This is a Hell thread? Eternal boredom. I'll definitely choose the alternative: interminable strumming harps. Erin must be grinding her teeth. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
So why don't you just let it die, instead of decreasing the average quality of the posts?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
Good idea. I'll follow you out the door.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
Good idea. I'll follow you out the door.
I'm required to be here, you berk. I signed up for it in a moment of masochism.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ingo for Pope! Because he's already infallible.
I applaud. That was funny!
But the endless butthurt every time Ingo pisses someone off...jeez already.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I must say that I'm enjoying watching IngoB playing with his newbie chew toy, "The Neuroscience of Belief in God : )" in Purg. Even an old dog gets a kick out of a fresh rawhide bone to gnaw on, and pseudo-science/metaphysics mumbo-jumbo is a special treat for our boy.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I nearly jumped in on that thread, but IngoB beat me to it. We still have the eldest daughter's psychology degree text books, so it would be easy, even with zero knowledge..
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I'm not sure I'd call it a chew toy - he seems to enjoy it so much that I'd say it's more like he found a new leg to hump.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
Hmmm. Some time ago on another thread, IngoB rolled in and delivered what was probably a much-needed kick up my arse. However he has utterly failed to return to pass comment, positive or otherwise, on my response.
I therefore find little difficulty in assuming that he is yet another of the arrogant twatwads that academia attracts, rising to the top like turds in a cess pit.
If you want to prove yourself better than that, you know what to do.
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
From Here in the Styx
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
couldn't care less about endearing anybody to my cause.... Take it to heart or attach it to your IngoB voodoo doll and burn it, whatever.
In one paragraph he doesn't care and does.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Love to see him scolding Eutychus in Styx as if he were an overbearing Italian mother. "I'm just calling you to Styx to tell you I don't care what you think about me" is as obscene an abuse of logic as it gets around here.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Love to see him scolding Eutychus in Styx as if he were an overbearing Italian mother. "I'm just calling you to Styx to tell you I don't care what you think about me" is as obscene an abuse of logic as it gets around here.
And we'd always thought Bingo to be a clever guy. Now it's apparent that however smart he is, he wants his intellect to be used as a "get out of jail free" card, and little else.
Give me deano, any day.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Re his dumb ass Styx thread:
Mum is that you?
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Love to see him scolding Eutychus in Styx as if he were an overbearing Italian mother. "I'm just calling you to Styx to tell you I don't care what you think about me" is as obscene an abuse of logic as it gets around here.
And we'd always thought Bingo to be a clever guy. Now it's apparent that however smart he is, he wants his intellect to be used as a "get out of jail free" card, and little else.
Give me deano, any day.
Steady on.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Picked this up late but
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
... I don't want to have German style PR...
You've already more or less got it, in Scotland. As we have here in Wales.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
We have an additional member system in Scotland. Judging by his original description of the German system where he assured us it would better represent the people by not returning any SNP members to Westminster that is not the system Ingo was describing.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which he claims is oh so much better than the UKs system.
It is.
So are Germany's trains, buses, trams and cycle lanes.
It's health system works better than ours too.
Then there's the industry and engineering.
Oh, and Sundays. No trucks are allowed to move on Sundays. No mowers or strimmers or noisy garden equipment to be used. No tipping your bottles into recycling if it makes a noise. Most shops are closed.
Sundays in Germany are peaceful, rest days.
Then there's the Weißbier – bliss!
What's not to like?
Bottled Berliner Kindl.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Q - why did the German cross the road?
A - because the little walking man is lighted up and now it is permitted.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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