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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The last of the last days?
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
It is a kind of Christian orthodoxy that we are living in the last of the last days. I think it may even be in the Nicene creed, isn't it?
But what hope does this position give the children? No-one knows the day or hour etc?
According to Jewish tradition, we have until Hebrew year 6000 (2239 AD) before the deadline for the supposed Jewish Messiah. Does that give us 114 years before we need to worry? (not that any of us should worry, after all, counting our blessings and not worrying is the entire gospel isn't it?).
So there is hope for the children after all and we can carry on looking after this earth without having to run away to Petra in Jordan.
And we can focus on our personal eschatologies and prepare Google inactive account manager to send messages to loved ones and set up a delayed Amazon ebook release of our scandalous memoirs.
See, there are always happy things in this world. Hallelujah?
[ 26. May 2015, 06:58: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
It is a kind of Christian orthodoxy that we are living in the last of the last days. I think it may even be in the Nicene creed, isn't it?
If I recall correctly, the closest the Nicence creed comes to that is saying that Jesus Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. But no time-frame is given.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
It is a kind of Christian orthodoxy that we are living in the last of the last days.
[citation needed]
We are those on whom the ends of the ages are come (1 Cor 10:11) - and have been since New Testament times. Jesus' words at the beginning of Acts seem clearly to rule out any reliance on dates, Hebrew or otherwise, as guidelines as to the time of his return. All we know, rather self-evidently, is that our salvation is nearer now than it was when we first believed (Rom 13:11).
What is your basis for saying we are living in the "last of the last days"?
[ 26. May 2015, 07:24: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I think it's safe to say that the Church has always believed we're living in the "last days", but none of the Creeds affirm that (much less the "last of the last days"). Of course, we also affirm that a day is like a thousand years etc ... so, how much longer the last days will last is an unanswered question.
I think the only conclusion we cna draw is that we're to live as though Christ will come tomorrow and live as though it'll be another thousand years. So, we can't neglect the oil supply for our lamps because "He's not coming yet, there will be time to get more oil". Likewise, we can't neglect the stewardship of the world because "He'll be back very soon so it doesn't matter"
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Exactly right, Alan. And good Scottish Reformed theology!
There is a story that the great Scottish divine Robert Murray M'Cheyne was once speaking to the elders of his church in Dundee before an evening service. He asked each of them in turn, "Do you believe that Christ will return tonight?" Each one replied, "No". Then he gave out his text for the service: "Be ready, for you know not the hour at which the Lord will come". However, he was an activist who certainly did not sitting around waiting for Christ to come!
[ 26. May 2015, 07:40: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Chief of sinners
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# 8794
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Posted
I grew up in a church where we believed that we were living in the last of the last days, and you are right to worry about your children. I remember feeling that university, even Bible college, would be a waste of time because the Lord was likely to come before I completed the course, meaning I would miss my opprotuity to work for Him.
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If Jesus was half the revolutionary you claim, how come he is now represented by one of the most conservative, status-quo institutions on the planet?
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
It is a kind of Christian orthodoxy that we are living in the last of the last days.
[citation needed]
We are those on whom the ends of the ages are come (1 Cor 10:11) - and have been since New Testament times. Jesus' words at the beginning of Acts seem clearly to rule out any reliance on dates, Hebrew or otherwise, as guidelines as to the time of his return. All we know, rather self-evidently, is that our salvation is nearer now than it was when we first believed (Rom 13:11).
What is your basis for saying we are living in the "last of the last days"?
Okay Eutychus, no-one is saying we are in the last of the last days. Not commentators on Christian radio stations like UCB and Premier, not the rising Christian media star which is Christian Today, not the millions of eclectic Christian blogs, not any churches anywhere I am sure. I must, surely have imagined it.
Maybe I'm mad. Some mornings I think I may be, like a raven singing among beautiful songbirds. Before anyone takes offence (as freedom seems to be at a premium), I am complimenting you as being like a songbird in the morning and being self-deprecating by calling myself a crow.
I am not saying we are in the last of the last days. I am saying that it is an orthodox position among many Christians now. And good morning to you sir.
[ 26. May 2015, 07:53: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Alyosha wrote:
quote:
Okay Eutychus, no-one is saying we are in the last of the last days. Not commentators on Christian radio stations like UCB and Premier, not the rising Christian media star which is Christian Today, not the millions of eclectic Christian blogs, not any churches anywhere I am sure. I must, surely have imagined it.
Well, you didn't just say that there are some Christians who think that(to which you would likely get little argument). You said that "it is a kind of Christian orthodoxy".
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Alyosha wrote:
quote:
Okay Eutychus, no-one is saying we are in the last of the last days. Not commentators on Christian radio stations like UCB and Premier, not the rising Christian media star which is Christian Today, not the millions of eclectic Christian blogs, not any churches anywhere I am sure. I must, surely have imagined it.
Well, you didn't just say that there are some Christians who think that(to which you would likely get little argument). You said that "it is a kind of Christian orthodoxy".
Well, I move in strange and esoteric circles, so I could be out of touch, admittedly.
I'm not pressing the slightly fantastical button which sets out an eerie trumpet blast that the world is about to end and we're all doomed. I'm simply saying that many people have pressed that button. Do you think it is a red button? If you or I felt convicted to press that button do you feel that the Christian community would believe us?
[ 26. May 2015, 08:02: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
[cross post]
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Okay Eutychus, no-one is saying we are in the last of the last days.
I never said that. I challenged your claim that it's orthodoxy. Even if you think it's received wisdom, it's not orthodoxy. The confusion between "trending" and "orthodox" amongst many evangelicals is astounding (and a source of personal despair to me), as is the disconnect between what many of them say they believe about faithfulness to Scripture and what they actually say. quote:
Not commentators on Christian radio stations like UCB and Premier, not the rising Christian media star which is Christian Today, not the millions of eclectic Christian blogs, not any churches anywhere I am sure. I must, surely have imagined it.
Well, I think your working definition of "Christian" is "evangelical Christian" and not all of those either. They may be the noisiest constituency, but they are by no means representative.
And besides, I'm not even sure about your implied claims above. The editor of Christian Today is a personal acquaintance. I've written a couple of articles for the site. Its basis of faith says nothing about Christ's imminent return, and I'm not aware of any editorial line on that subject.
FWIW I grew up in a church in which we were regularly assured Christ might well return before the meeting (usually the Gospel meeting...) was over, and I clearly recall hearing it confidently asserted from the pulpit, on the basis of some very poor adding up and the creation of the state of Israel, that he would definitely be back by 1982.
[ 26. May 2015, 08:15: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
If you or I felt convicted to press that button do you feel that the Christian community would believe us?
I sincerely hope not, because I cannot see a shred of Scriptural justification for doing so. The Bible appears to me to be incontrovertibly clear that we.don't.know. The history of movements that did feel "convicted" to "press that button" is informative (one of many examples; another one).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[cross post]
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Okay Eutychus, no-one is saying we are in the last of the last days.
I never said that. I challenged your claim that it's orthodoxy. Even if you think it's received wisdom, it's not orthodoxy. The confusion between "trending" and "orthodox" amongst many evangelicals is astounding (and a source of personal despair to me), as is the disconnect between what many of them say they believe about faithfulness to Scripture and what they actually say. quote:
Not commentators on Christian radio stations like UCB and Premier, not the rising Christian media star which is Christian Today, not the millions of eclectic Christian blogs, not any churches anywhere I am sure. I must, surely have imagined it.
Well, I think your working definition of "Christian" is "evangelical Christian" and not all of those either. They may be the noisiest constituency, but they are by no means representative.
And besides, I'm not even sure about your implied claims above. The editor of Christian Today is a personal acquaintance. I've written a couple of articles for the site. Its basis of faith says nothing about Christ's imminent return, and I'm not aware of any editorial line on that subject.
FWIW I grew up in a church in which we were regularly assured Christ might well return before the meeting (usually the Gospel meeting...) was over, and I clearly recall hearing it confidently asserted from the pulpit, on the basis of some very poor adding up and the creation of the state of Israel, that he would definitely be back by 1982.
Who? Where? What? When? You have written for Christian Today? That practically makes you the establishment?
I am not interested in brinkmanship. What I am interested in is your position on the end of the world, which you have ducked.
Do you think that Islam is the fashionable enemy in the same way that Russia used to be during the cold war (Hal Lindsey etc)? Do you think that the idea that Islam is instrumental in the end of the world will pass in the same way as The Late Great Planet Earth targeted Russia?
Qualify your statements. Practice what you preach.
[ 26. May 2015, 08:35: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
That practically makes you the establishment?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Not an accusation I have to deal with every day, I can assure you! quote:
I am not interested in brinkmanship.
Neither am I. I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to put one over you, I was disputing the reliability of your claims and explaining why I felt qualified to dispute them. The standard of proof in Purgatory is usually held to be more than saying "so and so says such and such" without any support whatsoever. Give us some evidence of this "orthodoxy", not just hand-waving! quote:
What I am interested in is your position on the end of the world, which you have ducked.
I'm out of time for now, but I'm pretty much with Alan Cresswell I think.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
That practically makes you the establishment?
Not an accusation I have to deal with every day, I can assure you! quote:
I am not interested in brinkmanship.
Neither am I. I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to put one over you, I was disputing the reliability of your claims and explaining why I felt qualified to dispute them. The standard of proof in Purgatory is usually held to be more than saying "so and so says such and such" without any support whatsoever. Give us some evidence of this "orthodoxy", not just hand-waving! quote:
What I am interested in is your position on the end of the world, which you have ducked.
I'm out of time for now, but I'm pretty much with Alan Cresswell I think.
I wrote harshly. Please accept my apology. I'm new here and I don't entirely know the rules. Sorry. I hold no malice towards anyone here.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I grew up in a church in which we were regularly assured Christ might well return before the meeting (usually the Gospel meeting...) was over, and I clearly recall hearing it confidently asserted from the pulpit, on the basis of some very poor adding up and the creation of the state of Israel, that he would definitely be back by 1982.
Don't forget that Mikhail Gorbachev - or President Sadat (depending on which book you read) - was definitely the Antichrist.
The "locusts" of Revelation were NT-era imagining of American attack helicopters. The Mark of the Beast were tattoed barcodes.
And don't even begin to think of the Common Market or EEC (as it was in those days)as the seven-headed "whore of Babylon". Strange that no-one says that anymore, now that it's grown!
Whether, however, there will be some cataclysmic final conflict in the Iraq area does still seem possible. And (showing my age here!) Larry Norman's plangent song was rather good an probably influenced people to view of the Rapture more than anything else.
More seriously: eschatological hubris comes to the fore in times of uncertainty and anxiety. I think it did pre-1939 (wasn't there a book then called "The Mark of the Beast"?), it flourished in Cold War America and, possibly, rapidly-industrialising 1840s Britain; it certainly was strong just pre-1000AD and, I think, during the Black Death ... and so on.
[ 26. May 2015, 08:56: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Another Cresswellian here. His summary is, I think, not just orthodox Reformed theology, but pretty consistent with Catholic Holy Tradition and the generally accepted understanding of Orthodox Christians.
Speculating on the chronological imminence of Last Days has a really bad history in Christian denominations and sects. It's also got a 100% failure rate so far as prediction is concerned.
Why do people go for this kind of speculation, despite the clear tradition that "it's not for us to know"? That's an interesting question.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chief of sinners:
I grew up in a church where we believed that we were living in the last of the last days, and you are right to worry about your children. I remember feeling that university, even Bible college, would be a waste of time because the Lord was likely to come before I completed the course, meaning I would miss my opprotuity to work for Him.
My wife claims that she used to worry that the Lord would return before she could marry me.
Can you blame her?
On a more serious note, I have pointed out before on threads of this nature that the late F.F. Bruce suggested that historians in ten thousand years time might regard the last two thousand years as the period of the church's infancy.
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I grew up in a church in which we were regularly assured Christ might well return before the meeting (usually the Gospel meeting...) was over, and I clearly recall hearing it confidently asserted from the pulpit, on the basis of some very poor adding up and the creation of the state of Israel, that he would definitely be back by 1982.
Don't forget that Mikhail Gorbachev - or President Sadat (depending on which book you read) - was definitely the Antichrist.
The "locusts" of Revelation were NT-era imagining of American attack helicopters. The Mark of the Beast were tattoed barcodes.
And don't even begin to think of the Common Market or EEC (as it was in those days)as the seven-headed "whore of Babylon". Strange that no-one says that anymore, now that it's grown!
Whether, however, there will be some cataclysmic final conflict in the Iraq area does still seem possible. And (showing my age here!) Larry Norman's plangent song was rather good an probably influenced people to view of the Rapture more than anything else.
More seriously: eschatological hubris comes to the fore in times of uncertainty and anxiety. I think it did pre-1939 (wasn't there a book then called "The Mark of the Beast"?), it flourished in Cold War America and, possibly, rapidly-industrialising 1840s Britain; it certainly was strong just pre-1000AD and, I think, during the Black Death ... and so on.
Please let me assure you that many people still see the EU as the 10 state confederacy. Interestingly the revived European empire idea could only come from the Christian imagination - it is a very clever and bold idea in many ways. There is even speculation that Britain and a number of other countries will leave the EU in the future, reducing it to the required 10 figure. A lot of this speculation is from the US, but I think it is worthy of note.
The thing which is never ever mentioned in eschatology is the spread of the gospel to all tribes. The last I heard there were 6000 people groups who still needed missionaries, many of them in Islamic countries. For Christ's prayer to be answered then this needs to happen (along with the oft mentioned re-building of the temple in Jerusalem).
There also needs to be a level of unity in the Christian community which I'm sure you have noticed is not present.
Islam is often noted as the major player in end-time ebooks. I wonder if this can lead to a kind of prejudice against Muslims which is not necessarily deserved. This combines with the fact that many Muslims do oppress Christians in other countries. This does not happen in the UK and the Muslims say that they are the oppressed minority. But you know all this.
The thing that seems to be ignored in the antagonism towards Muslims in this country (even from Christians) is that our battle is not against flesh and blood. This is not an appropriate scripture to mention in times of war.
[ 26. May 2015, 09:29: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Apart from mere academic speculation, is being concerned about the timing of the Second Coming ever constructive?
In my experience, no. And I lived through the Cold War in the middle of a tight triangle bounded by three nuclear weapon targets. Everyone whoever tried to guess the identity of the four horsemen, the whore of Babylon, the beast, the antichrist - they were all wrong, and some of them dangerously so.
Be like Luther. Plant a tree.
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Forward the New Republic
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I do think there is a solid case for these being the “last days”. AIUI, the last days are those in which God pours out His Spirit on all flesh, i.e. the period since Pentecost.
However, on that definition, we’ve been in the last days for the best part of 2000 years. What seems more problematic to me is saying that this is the end of the last. Certainly our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. But that’s just the way time works.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
The thing which is never ever mentioned in eschatology is the spread of the gospel to all tribes. The last I heard there were 6000 people groups who still needed missionaries, many of them in Islamic countries.
Not quite true. I was a member of a missionary society back in the 80s, and at that time there was a strong rhetoric - which I think came from the "Restoration" movement - that we needed to "spread the Gospel, reach the unreached tribes, and bring back the King" (or "let the King return"). Indeed, I'm pretty sure I preached on it myself once or twice.
Interestingly, another theme which sometimes came out in those days was that there would be a great worldwide revival ("outpouring") before Jesus returned. I think Wimber was quite keen in this, but I first heard it in (I think) the very late 70s from Jean Darnall. It was interesting as it ran directly against the Hal Lindsey-style Premillennial approach which said that the world must inevitably get worse and less Christian for Christ to be able to come.
Gamaliel - if you're reading this - did you come across any of this in the circles you moved in? You are more familiar with them than I am.
[ 26. May 2015, 10:13: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes I did - very much so ...
In some ways what happened was that the 'restorationists' in the UK reacted against the kind of pre-millenial approach taken by most Brethren and Pentecostals at that time - and most of the leaders tended to come from Brethren and Pentecostal backgrounds - although there was a strong Baptist input as well which brought in some more 'reformed' (small r) emphases ...
I fully accept Kaplan's point that not all the Brethren went in for the idea of Christ's imminent return - and his reminder about F F Bruce here is pertinent ...
But as far as popular evangelicalism went, it was very much Hal Lindsay-esque in tone and the 'restorationists' reacted against all that. Indeed, it was one of the reasons why I felt myself drawn to it because I was aghast at some of the more ridiculous eschatological speculations I heard at the Brethren Assembly my brother attended for a time ... complete with quotes from that most inspired of sources, The Reader's Digest ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
So, in essence, what the 'restorationists' did was to over-react in the opposite direction and so come up with some kind of over-realised eschatology that was just as bad in its own way as the one they were reacting against.
I heard a number of prominent leaders confidently predict the end of the world and - to my horror - connect it in some way to the culmination of their own work ... which struck me as extreme hubris on their part.
I'm with Alan Cresswell and also Barnabas62.
Andrew Walker was mentioned here recently. At the 'On Revival' conference I attended in 2002, one of the speakers was a Presbyterian guy from the US - strongly Reformed - 'Orthodox Presbyterian' I think ... (that's not Eastern Orthodox of course ...)
He made a few comments on eschatological issues and there were a few protests 'from the floor' - the conference had attracted a number of revivalists and people from some of the more fundie Bible colleges who were clearly expecting something rather more ra-ra-rah.
I well remember Andrew Walker joining him to 'best' these people with some well-chosen quotes and references - and doing so in a very respectful and measured way too - which was impressive.
It struck me how Walker as an Orthodox Christian and this speaker as a Reformed one were on exactly the same page when it came to eschatology.
As to Alyosha's point about febrile eschatological speculations from the US deserving some kind of hearing - balderdash. It doesn't deserve any such hearing. It should be summarily dismissed because as sure as eggs are eggs it'll be as nonsensical as any of the other eschatological speculations that have drifted our way across the Atlantic over the last century or so.
Piffle. Piffle and poppycock.
I wish some of these people had listened to the likes of F F Bruce - and indeed, the broad thrust of the 'received' tradition of both the Catholic and Reformed churches - and saved themselves and their hearers a lot of hassle.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Lest anyone think I'm starting a Pond War - far from it - the source of so many of the more whacky eschatological speculations was on this side of the Atlantic.
There were all manner of eschatological concerns thrown up by the Napoleonic Wars and the social unrest of the 1830s that fed into the end-times speculations surrounding the Irvingites and others. There were those famous conferences where they pored over the scriptures trying to discern the pattern for the 'end-times' ...
The Brethren also emerged against this milieu.
Then there was the rise of 'Adventism' in the US from the 1840s onwards ... which pretty much took the ball punted over from this side of the Atlantic and kicked it further into speculative territory.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry to triple-post, but something that is often overlooked is the extent to which 'prophecies' and 'tongues-and-interpretations' within early Pentecostalism dealt with predictions of the imminent end of the world.
If you read any of the primary sources and accounts, this comes out very clearly indeed.
The first generation of Pentecostals were convinced they were the last generation before the return of Christ.
This tendency runs through Pentecostalism and neo-Pentecostalism to this day - although it's been modified and toned down to a large extent.
It depends where you are, though.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I think it's safe to say that the Church has always believed we're living in the "last days", but none of the Creeds affirm that (much less the "last of the last days"). Of course, we also affirm that a day is like a thousand years etc ... so, how much longer the last days will last is an unanswered question.
I think the only conclusion we cna draw is that we're to live as though Christ will come tomorrow and live as though it'll be another thousand years. So, we can't neglect the oil supply for our lamps because "He's not coming yet, there will be time to get more oil". Likewise, we can't neglect the stewardship of the world because "He'll be back very soon so it doesn't matter"
Indeed, if Jesus IS coming back tomorrow, all the more reason to go do something significant. (My favorite bumper sticker: Jesus is coming: look busy). If Jesus were to return tomorrow, I don't think he'd be impressed if we run out of our darkened basements full of books and charts, clutching our calendar with the correct date circled in red. I think he will probably come looking for his followers in the homeless shelters and the immigration detention centers and the food bank. The latest "prophesy seminar" will be the last place he'd expect to find us.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
The thing which is never ever mentioned in eschatology is the spread of the gospel to all tribes.
Never? You need to get out more.
To take just one example and since I've already mentioned him, Roger Forster's take is that each generation sort of follows on directly from the end of the NT and gets a chance to preach the gospel to all peoples, and then the end will come. quote:
Islam is often noted as the major player in end-time ebooks.
In the early 1980s my wife-to-be attended a presentation by an Open Doors worker at which he explained how the Gospel had sort of spiralled out from the Middle East across the world, followed by communism from the USSR, and that communism would then become a spent force and be replaced by Islam spiralling out in similar manner from the Middle East.
This has long struck us as amazingly prescient. It's also hard to forget how Open Doors began seven years of prayer for the Soviet Union in 1982 - with the fall of the Berlin Wall precisely seven years later (their ten years of prayer for the Muslim world does not, however, seem to have had the same effect...).
But as Kaplan Corday points out, these could well just be moves in a much longer game. Anyone who lived through the Cold War and accompanying eschatalogical excitement should be wise enough to be wary of similar exaggerated claims about the Muslim world.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
One of the problems in this topic is that for many years there was this widespread preaching of the 'Left Behind' style idea of an 'any minute now' Second Coming to be followed by the Tribulation and Jesus' in effect 'Third Coming' to start off the Millennium.
Many Christians in my experience were not happy with this, but didn't really know how to respond. They tended therefore to settle for a kind of 'minimum we can all agree on approach' which tended to include the idea of a very imminent Second Coming, just without all the detail of the 'Left Behind' approach. A kind of agnosticism while trying to be positive. I think it was this attitude that Alyosha has picked on as being a 'kind of orthodoxy' in recent years.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Chief of sinners:
I grew up in a church where we believed that we were living in the last of the last days, and you are right to worry about your children. I remember feeling that university, even Bible college, would be a waste of time because the Lord was likely to come before I completed the course, meaning I would miss my opprotuity to work for Him.
My wife claims that she used to worry that the Lord would return before she could marry me.
Can you blame her?
For me, it was the prophecies of Mostradamus, as catalogued in this book. Specifically the one that went...
"In the year 1999 and seven months/from the sky will come the great king of terror."
I seriously worried that I wouldn't have enough time to accomplsh my career goals, as I would have been only 30 when the End came.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Baptist Tainfan wrote:
quote:
The "locusts" of Revelation were NT-era imagining of American attack helicopters.
And for all you skeptics...
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
There should be a trigger warning before that post.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
Also from Trainfan...
quote:
And don't even begin to think of the Common Market or EEC (as it was in those days)as the seven-headed "whore of Babylon". Strange that no-one says that anymore, now that it's grown!
Minor correction, but from my reading, the Common Market was NOT usually the Whore Of Babylon in the pre-mil eschatologies.
Depending on how openly anti-Catholic the preacher was, the WOB was either Roman Catholicism, or(as in the Spire comic linked above), occultic religion generally.
I'm not exactly sure which character from Revelation was thought to symbolize the EU, except that the Beast was the head of it.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
For me, it was the prophecies of Mostradamus, as catalogued in this book. Specifically the one that went...
"In the year 1999 and seven months/from the sky will come the great king of terror."
hmm... Probably about the time that George W Bush entered the race for the presidency... Maybe I'm a dispensationalist after all.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Perhaps it escaped your notice over the pond that the EEC was founded by the treaty of Rome... and the flag is a dead giveaway... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Baptist Trainfan wrote:
quote:
The "locusts" of Revelation were NT-era imagining of American attack helicopters.
And for all you skeptics...
That was the very "comic" I was thinking of ... together with Hal Lindsey. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
Thanks for the link, Eutychus. I especially liked this juxtaposition of chapter-headings from the first one...
quote:
The Catholic Church Will Use Force!
Followed by...
quote:
We Agree With the Reformers
Yes, because Luther, Calvin, and Henry VIII only ever employed peaceful persuasion to advance their cause.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In the early 1980s my wife-to-be attended a presentation by an Open Doors worker at which he explained how the Gospel had sort of spiralled out from the Middle East across the world, followed by communism from the USSR, and that communism would then become a spent force and be replaced by Islam spiralling out in similar manner from the Middle East.
This has long struck us as amazingly prescient.
Yes. I also remember giggling faintly (and absolutely wrongly, in retrospect) when I heard Brother Andrew himself saying that the Hutu and Tutsi in Rwanda would end up in deadly conflict. The names just sounded so outlandish - but he was dead right. And this would have been in around 1978 - more than 15 years before the genocide.
Open Doors certainly had their finger on the pulse ...
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Baptist Trainfan wrote:
quote:
The "locusts" of Revelation were NT-era imagining of American attack helicopters.
And for all you skeptics...
That was the very "comic" I was thinking of ... together with Hal Lindsey.
Yeah, that comic was based on a Hal Lindsey book.
And sorry about the lack of trigger warnings in that other post. Here's something a little more on the tasteful and restrained side.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Also from Trainfan...
quote:
And don't even begin to think of the Common Market or EEC (as it was in those days)as the seven-headed "whore of Babylon". Strange that no-one says that anymore, now that it's grown!
Minor correction, but from my reading, the Common Market was NOT usually the Whore Of Babylon in the pre-mil eschatologies.
Depending on how openly anti-Catholic the preacher was, the WOB was either Roman Catholicism, or(as in the Spire comic linked above), occultic religion generally.
I'm not exactly sure which character from Revelation was thought to symbolize the EU, except that the Beast was the head of it.
Yes, there is still a lot of anti-Catholic prejudice dressed up in end times speculation.
I suppose this has been the case historically, with accusations that a pope is the anti-Christ. But it is worrying to see it still going on.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I grew up in a church in which we were regularly assured Christ might well return before the meeting (usually the Gospel meeting...) was over, and I clearly recall hearing it confidently asserted from the pulpit, on the basis of some very poor adding up and the creation of the state of Israel, that he would definitely be back by 1982.
Don't forget that Mikhail Gorbachev - or President Sadat (depending on which book you read) - was definitely the Antichrist.
I remember reading a book which carefully explained all the reasons why Yuri Andropov was the Antichrist. The book was published in the middle of 1983. Andropov inconveniently popped his clogs in February 1984....
Just one reason (of many) why I have come to regard any and all speculation about "The Last Day" with complete contempt. Far too many genuine Christians have been misled and bamboozled by so-called "experts" and "prophets".
(If I am completely honest, this is an area of Christian faith where I think we need to read it as purely symbolical rather than literal. Given all we know now about the universe and its age and processes, I think it is scarcely credible to keep hold of a belief that it is all going to end suddenly one day. But I accept that this places me at the end of the spectrum in these matters.)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I remember reading a book which carefully explained all the reasons why Yuri Andropov was the Antichrist. The book was published in the middle of 1983. Andropov inconveniently popped his clogs in February 1984....
Gosh, who remembers Andropov today?
Ditto a book which cited Anwar Sadat ... which came out (or, at least, I read) after he had been killed.
[ 26. May 2015, 16:07: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Oscar wrote:
quote:
I remember reading a book which carefully explained all the reasons why Yuri Andropov was the Antichrist. The book was published in the middle of 1983. Andropov inconveniently popped his clogs in February 1984....
Bizarre, given that the Antichrist is otherwise supposed to be a highly charismatic figure who will charm the world. Whereas I don't think even the Communists themselves were swooning over the USSR's geriatric leadership in the early 80s.
One slightly more credible candidate I heard mentioned, on the Paul Lalonde TV show, was King Juan Carlos of Spain. I can't quite recall their reasoning, but it was the year of the Barcelona Olympics, so he was flying relatively high in public estimation, and there was allegedly some sort of occultic symbolism at the Olympic ceremonies.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Trainfan wrote:
quote:
Ditto a book which cited Anwar Sadat ... which came out (or, at least, I read) after he had been killed.
Yeah, a guy who had to stuff ballots and kill opponents to win elections in his own country, and who was despised by multitudes of his co-religionists, is gonna convince the whole world to worship him.
That's the problem(well, apart from overall foundational lunacy) with pre-mil anti-christ auditions. They always pick whoever happens to be the most demonized figure of the moment in right-wing circles, which usually overestimates the "growth potential" for such people on the international stage.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Oscar wrote:
quote:
I remember reading a book which carefully explained all the reasons why Yuri Andropov was the Antichrist. The book was published in the middle of 1983. Andropov inconveniently popped his clogs in February 1984....
Bizarre, given that the Antichrist is otherwise supposed to be a highly charismatic figure who will charm the world. Whereas I don't think even the Communists themselves were swooning over the USSR's geriatric leadership in the early 80s.
I think that this paragraph from Wikipedia probably explains it all:
quote:
Two days after Leonid Brezhnev's death, on 12 November 1982, Andropov was elected General Secretary of the CPSU, the first former head of the KGB to become General Secretary. His appointment was received in the West with apprehension, in view of his roles in the KGB and in Hungary. At the time his personal background was a mystery in the West, with major newspapers printing detailed profiles of him that were inconsistent and in many cases fabricated.
It was the fact that he was head of the KGB, mixed in with all sorts of "facts" about his past life, which marked him out as the Antichrist. It was bizarre reading at the time, and just hilarious after his death. I wish I could remember more about who wrote the book.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The correct wording, also covering your eventual death in the interim, is "unless the Lord should come or call".
[ 26. May 2015, 17:46: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I used to attend some meetings where the chairperson anounted 'The date of our next meeting, if the Lord hasn't returned by then, is.....'
I always thought her to be naive, if not mad.
Well, you know someone could easily say 'The Lord will come at a time when you don't expect him' and judging by the consensus here he really would be like a thief in the night.
I don't want to draw irony on myself by talking about thieves (because I don't want to get robbed and life can get ironic with my words), but it is interesting that Christ likens himself to a thief. Only with this simile and with the unjust judge parable does he liken himself to negative characters.
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Isn't the point of that metaphor the certainty that you won't know when the thief will strike? Because, if you did, duh.
No amount of searching the scriptures for clues is ever going to help, unless you're going to cross the river into gnostic heresy and claim 'hidden knowledge'.
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Forward the New Republic
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Only with this simile and with the unjust judge parable does he liken himself to negative characters.
I don't think Jesus is likening himself to the judge. The figure is presented as a contrast.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Only with this simile and with the unjust judge parable does he liken himself to negative characters.
I don't think Jesus is likening himself to the judge. The figure is presented as a contrast.
It's a bit of both. Jesus is definitely using the Judge as a metaphor for God, but by way of contrast, "if even an unjust judge would give justice, how much more so..."
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Only with this simile and with the unjust judge parable does he liken himself to negative characters.
I don't think Jesus is likening himself to the judge. The figure is presented as a contrast.
Hmmm, I think you may be correct. I thought he was being self-deprecating.
I do have another gem for folk to trample on though - after Christ had the encounter with the devil in the wilderness the only way the disciples would have been able to know what had happened would be if Christ sat them down and told them the story. Two characters, one wilderness, no-one else to record the incident.
Same with the trip to Hades in between death and resurrection?
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