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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Where is everyone....?
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Another thread addresses the question of ageing congregations, but at Our Place the problem is slightly different....
....we have a handful of The Usual Suspects who come to church pretty much every Sunday, but the rest of our Electoral Roll (60+) seems to attend on a much more infrequent or irregular basis. We have a very mixed economy - three or four young families, some teenagers (!), some students (!), a fair few middle-aged peeps (some married and others singletons), and a handful of older folk. If most people came to our Sunday Eucharist most weeks, we'd have 40+ in church, but as it is, we're lucky to get 25.
It's not that people have abandoned us, moved away, died, become Jedi, or gone off in a huff - it's just that attendance at Church - even amongst the 'committed' - seems to be a low priority. I do acknowledge, of course, that for some, pressures of work or family are a problem, but this irregularity does seem to be getting worse.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that this is now becoming common in the C of E - how is it for you, whatever denomination you belong to? And is this a UK-only phenomenon?
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Although our attendance rates are higher than the OP example, I have noticed a similar pattern. There really isn't any pressure these days to develop, or sustain, weekly church attendance. Interestingly, the prayer book only talks about a handful of days of obligation, so I'm not sure when the expectation to attend weekly really kicked in.
There are certainly a lot of other options available on Sundays now, compared with in the past. There might also be a backlash against the pressure, amongst the really keen Christians of a generation ago, that weekly attendance at church really was the minimum, and that one should attend all manner of bible studies, prayer groups, etc. on top of that requirement. Anyone remember the perjorative term 'Backslider' - used to accuse the less committed?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I suppose the question we don't ask is, 'is the church I go to so exciting that I look forward to Sunday and wakes up on Sunday morning thrilled by the thought that today I can go and meet God there'?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
maybe rephrase that? Like maybe, "Is my knowledge of/desire for/relationship with (choose your preference) God such that I'm willing to commit to something that will benefit it?" (for values of church which DO benefit it, obviously--I imagine some don't)
The reason I'm rephrasing is because I don't think an external pull (like "exciting" services) is going to produce anything lasting or worthwhile; and I don't think churches should be aiming for entertainment. (the other extreme is also bad, of course--but I don't look for constant excitement in my 30 year marriage, either)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
We have almost 700 on our Roll, with roughly 100 present on an average Sunday. Of that 100 I'd guess about 60 are every week attenders, with a further 80 who attend every other week. We do have some shift workers who couldn't come every week even if they wanted to. Then another maybe 300 who turn up once or twice a year; either to the Remembrance Service, which is always packed, or to Thinking Day, or to one of the Christmas services. Add on at least 50 elderly who live in residential care homes (we have a rota of services at three different homes).
That leaves about 200 totally unaccounted for.
We're Church of Scotland.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Hmm...now I come to think of it, we too have a number of different (albeit sometimes overlapping) congregations viz;
Sunday morning - at present 20-30 adults, with maybe up to 8 under-16s in addition on a particularly Good Day;
Monthly Saturday morning Walsingham Cell Mass - up to 14 adults on a GD;
Monthly Saturday evening Crafty Church (like Messy Church, but tidier, and for a slightly older age-group i.e. 7s-12s) - up to 20 children on a GD;
Monthly Friday afternoon Eucharist at sheltered flats - up to 12 elderly adults on a GD.
I wonder how common this kind of fragmentation is, too?
Perhaps it's not so bad after all - but I'd really like to see less of the Pew family and the Wood family on a Sunday morning.......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I did read in a sociological text somewhere that 'regular attendance' at church is less regular than it used to be. I think published stats on churchgoing often refer no longer to weekly attendance as 'regular', but refer to fortnightly or monthly attendance.
There are other things to do now on Sundays now, that's true. Also, I think people feel more committed to attending when they feel that church is 'family' - i.e., when they want to catch up with friends. I think CofE congregations have been less likely to cultivate this sort of feeling than other Protestant churches, though this is changing now, I feel.
Strong church relationships can be problematic in themselves; when they break down people are probably more likely to give up church altogether, but in a world where spirituality can be accessed in so many ways, and where church worship can easily be disappointing (we expect so much these days!) good friendships perhaps provide an impetus for people to turn up when they otherwise might not bother.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I do know that my young-adult daughter and son do not go to church, even though we took them to church every Sunday in childhood. However, this may change when they have kids of their own.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
The local mainline churches I know consider monthly as "regular."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I do know that my young-adult daughter and son do not go to church, even though we took them to church every Sunday in childhood. However, this may change when they have kids of their own.
Why do you think this is so? I'm genuinely curious. If they are unmarried, do you think it's because they feel less welcome as a single adult than a couple with children would be?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
They are busy doing other things: jobs, social life, grad school. Church is not a part of their -life- somehow.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
They are busy doing other things: jobs, social life, grad school. Church is not a part of their -life- somehow.
Not a part of? Or not the whole of?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
maybe rephrase that? Like maybe, "Is my knowledge of/desire for/relationship with (choose your preference) God such that I'm willing to commit to something that will benefit it?" (for values of church which DO benefit it, obviously--I imagine some don't)
The reason I'm rephrasing is because I don't think an external pull (like "exciting" services) is going to produce anything lasting or worthwhile; and I don't think churches should be aiming for entertainment. (the other extreme is also bad, of course--but I don't look for constant excitement in my 30 year marriage, either)
Maybe they got little or no benefit from it? After trying for years?
Madeleine L'Engle once wrote that church, as such, could have the opposite effect on her from what's intended.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
There was some detailed research into patterns of (C of E) church attendance done in the Wirral some years ago. What became clear was that "regular" church attendance included weekly, fortnightly, and monthly. On any one Sunday, you'll have a mixture of "every weekers", "every other weekers" and "once a monthers", with all sorts of random visitors and occasional attenders. This has all sorts of consequences.
a) Although the numbers attending services may remain steady from week to week, the actual people will vary considerably. So you can't just assume that people will have heard last week's sermon. So sequential sermon series become difficult. The same applies to things like learning new hynns and songs. You can't just say "we learned this last week, so you should all know it."
b) It makes it much harder to keep track of people. If someone isn't there for a few weeks, is that because there is a problem, or are they just intermittent attenders? It can easily be a couple of months before someone's absence is noticed.
Since moving to the western side of Canada, this phenomenon is even more noticeable. People come and go all the time. Absences of a month or more are regular - going on cruises, visiting children and grandchildren, avoiding cold winters or hot summers. I am seriously considering having a yearly wallchart, so that people can mark up when they are away, so that we can differentiate between "away seeing grandchildren" & "missing for unknown reason". I recently found that someone had been in hospital for two weeks and no one knew. We all thought they had gone visiting.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
maybe rephrase that? Like maybe, "Is my knowledge of/desire for/relationship with (choose your preference) God such that I'm willing to commit to something that will benefit it?" (for values of church which DO benefit it, obviously--I imagine some don't)
The reason I'm rephrasing is because I don't think an external pull (like "exciting" services) is going to produce anything lasting or worthwhile; and I don't think churches should be aiming for entertainment. (the other extreme is also bad, of course--but I don't look for constant excitement in my 30 year marriage, either)
Maybe they got little or no benefit from it? After trying for years?
Madeleine L'Engle once wrote that church, as such, could have the opposite effect on her from what's intended.
Surely that could happen. I just don't think it applies to the majority of people.
I am also no doubt overly sensitive to various IRL critics who have given us grief about the fact that church isn't as much fun as watching Youtube. I keep wanting to say to them, And do you never brush your teeth... visit your mother. . . Attend classes unless those experiences are as fun as Candy Crush?
I'm afraid my frustrations are showing.
[ 01. June 2015, 04:36: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I go to an Anglican church in a small country town of about 2000 people. There is a Pentecostal church focused on the young and families, there is a Catholic church, there is a Uniting Church with an older congregation, and there is my church, where I at 48 am one of three people I know to be under 70.
I attend this church because I don't like a particular singer at the Catholic Church, my wife doesn't want me to go Pentecostal (and I probably wouldn't like it), and the Uniting Church only has monthly communion. I'm a practicing ecuminist and I like going to church, I get alot out of the quiet and biblical service and hymns. I'm a BCP fan (and a Uniting in Worship fan for that matter).
But I haven't been for 6 weeks because I accepted work on a Sunday for a limited time, and could go to church with clients at work. Often I miss church too because I work on Saturdays and get home at 11pm, then have to take a tablet that takes a while to kick in. Sometimes 9am is a tough ask on a Sunday. Sometimes I find that I've just fallen out of the church habit.
But this is what I like: People know my name. They keep to the lectionary. They preach the lectionary. They always have communion. There is plenty of space for God.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The ELCA stats look at the number of people who use the facility on a weekly basis. That not only includes worship attendance on Sunday, but Sunday School attendence, and any and all mid week programmes. When we started including all this our way up. However, we have always had a strong attendence record for a church our size.
I would agree that a worship service does not need to be entertaining, but I would argue it does need to be spirit filled. By that I mean you just don't go through the motions for the sake of the motions, but that your worship should have a purpose. You want to offer adoration, you want to confess your faith, you want to give thanks and you want to offer supplications.
We tend to change the liturgy we use every three months just to keep things fresh. Same outline, same chants, for the most part , just different music.
We also feel permitted to give feedback during the sermon. The sermon often becomes a dialog between preacher and congregation. Our pastor is very good at controlling the dialog. It is usually him asking the question and congregation giving the response. Once in a while he will get a zinger in a response. Like today we were talking about rules we like to impose on ourselves. Pastor made the remark about next thing people will want us to do is to kiss the feet of the pope. I said audibly yes as a joke. He picked up on it right way and agreed maybe we could do it for this pope. Everyone was laughing. And then we settled down for a good discussion on the Trinity.
Entertaining? No I do not want to be entertained, But I do like to have fun with worship (in moderation). There is a difference.
I think that is why my congregation has high attendance for worship.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
But this is what I like: People know my name. They keep to the lectionary. They preach the lectionary. They always have communion. There is plenty of space for God.
And I thought that this world and everything in it was in God, given that He is infinite and we are not. Show me a space without God.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
But this is what I like: People know my name. They keep to the lectionary. They preach the lectionary. They always have communion. There is plenty of space for God.
And I thought that this world and everything in it was in God, given that He is infinite and we are not. Show me a space without God.
Yes. That's something that happened to me. Church too wordy now for me, when the fields and streams speak of God.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
And then there are those who left because the idea of a GOD no longer made any sort of sense.
The number, folks, is getting bigger, I suspect.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
One of my bugbears is the question "how do we attract people to church?" coming up at a church committee meeting.
We know how to attract people to church - if we have a special service, such as Remembrance Sunday, or Christingle, we are coming close to being standing room only.
What we don't know is how to attract people to "normal" services.
We circulate earnest articles about how to get people to take that difficult "first step" into church, ignoring the fact that, literally, hundreds of people have already taken that "first step" to attend a baptism, or to watch their small son or daughter take part in a one of the services attended by the uniformed organisations. And then they go away for a year until the next service which seems relevant to them.
If we were able to count the number of unique visitors we have to our church over the course of a year, it would be in the high hundreds; lets say a round thousand. Of that thousand, on any given "normal" Sunday, we have 100 in the church.
(Our church holds 350, packed tight, so we couldn't cope if all 1,000 did turn up, but fortunately for us the Remembrance Sunday congregation is discrete from the Christingle crowd.)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
I think that some practical things that churches can do include creating an informative website for people. So many churches don't have a website and as a result do not appear to be very welcoming. There is a church nearby in which there is a CCTV camera inside the church to stop would-be thieves. I don't think this sends out the right messages. I see other churches with barbed wire around them and spikes on their roofs. It sends out a mixed message.
However much we may say that the stereotypes of Christians as aloof, judgmental, condescending and hypocritical are, this is the popular perception. And as a result there are people everywhere except the churches. Even Ikea on a Sunday is busier. And it is partly because people go to church and leave feeling worse than they went in. I know that churches fight hard to prevent this from happening and they do many things right, but you did ask for opinions on how to make things better.
[ 01. June 2015, 07:08: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
It seems to me that attendance must be affected by what the denomination teaches about attendance - the purpose of it, the nature of it etc.
For me, it is intensely freeing to know that my attendance is an act of devotion, no matter what - whether I'm happy, sad, interested, bored, loving or unloving, in a state of grace or not - attending is better than not attending.
Beyond that, I suppose it is the very simplest expression of our mission - to witness to each other simply by being together.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
How to 'attract'? Don't - invite them because of a special reason or anniversary and keep inviting them.
My own shack employsm this and while it doesn't work with many and certainly not with any for all of the time, it does help and we know it has ended up turning 'occasional' families into regular worshippers.
Occasions we invite people to mark with a return to church include: - anniversary of baptism (every year until 12 years old) sent to the child
- invite also sent to the Godparents reminding them of occasion
- anniversary of marriage to all couples for first five years at least
- annual 'Marriage Sunday' when all couples married for the last 5 years, plus any who have booked for this year and the next, are invited
- annual Marriage Celebration Tea Party (with short service)
- invite to church everyone for whom we've taken a funeral service on the Sunday nearest the anniversary
- everyone who has had a funeral at church in the last 5 years invited to the annual All Souls' Requiem, plus all those who attended last year
- church celebration for fathers
All of that in addition to the monthly family service; Christingle; special effort for Mothering Sunday; Rogation walk with blessing of cattle, fields, etc; harvest; Come-and-Sing carols.
When service booklets were produced they were first shown to a non-churchgoer and their views were taken on-board and amendments made as necessary.
No, we're not perfect, but we manage to keep an average Sunday attendance of 9-10% of parish population when adding up children at Sunday School, the 8 o'clockers and main service - and bearing in mind we have a number of second homes that is quite good. We've also recently added a monthly Evensong to the list and so far that is showing good numbers and some people who don't come to the other services; what happens in the winter will be interesting.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
The last time I invited someone to church he said that he liked it but found it too cliquey. Clearly this must be just my denomination but there really is that perception with all churches.
Some people see churches as a kind of Mafia family. And sometimes they literally are families in which the church leaders are related. Nepotism and cronyism may not be sins, but sometimes, when they are insular, they alienate others and cause that cliquey, gang-like mentality. Churches are clearly not a meritocracy but people are not used to that.
They simply do not feel listened to and many of them feel blamed that they do not attend. You can't guilt them into going and play on their consciences - the reward for going has to be greater than the reward of going shopping or doing the hundred and one other things that people do on a Sunday. The complaint 'I'm too busy and don't have time to go to church' is not always an empty excuse.
I understand that it is not usually the Christian's fault either - that we really are trying our best. A lack of success may either make us want to blame each other or else be in denial that there is a problem at all.
People are searching for love and that love can best be expressed in a people who practice what they preach and who are not condescending towards those outside 'the gang'. But gang fights against gang and this is as off putting as the fact that going to church is simply not seen as cool.
So some Christians will say that the reason is that many churches do not share the full gospel. And by 'the full gospel' they mean repentance and sin and hell. But the last I heard, the gospel was the story of Christ's life (and repentance and sin and hell shouldn't be taboo, but they are not the gospel).
People relate to stories, so it is these which should be used in churches. Tell stories, tell the story of Christ. Why won't this attract people?
When I first became a Christian I longed for my church to simply talk about Christ. About his life, who he was, what he did. That kind of gentleness is so lacking in places. But that kind of gentle storytelling can change a mind better than any sledgehammer of a sermon on hell, sin and repentance.
Every week many of us do the same things and I think the problem is that many of us are in denial that there even is a problem. And that may not be our fault, but do we listen to those with half-decent ideas? Or do you have to be a Christian leader to have any kind of voice?
[ 01. June 2015, 10:11: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I suppose the question we don't ask is, 'is the church I go to so exciting that I look forward to Sunday and wakes up on Sunday morning thrilled by the thought that today I can go and meet God there'?
In a quiet way, yes. But I am bit of a saddo like that.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
The last time I invited someone to church he said that he liked it but found it too cliquey. Clearly this must be just my denomination but there really is that perception with all churches.
Some people see churches as a kind of Mafia family. And sometimes they literally are families in which the church leaders are related. Nepotism and cronyism may not be sins, but sometimes, when they are insular, they alienate others and cause that cliquey, gang-like mentality. Churches are clearly not a meritocracy but people are not used to that.
They simply do not feel listened to and many of them feel blamed that they do not attend. You can't guilt them into going and play on their consciences - the reward for going has to be greater than the reward of going shopping or doing the hundred and one other things that people do on a Sunday. The complaint 'I'm too busy and don't have time to go to church' is not always an empty excuse.
I understand that it is not usually the Christian's fault either - that we really are trying our best. A lack of success may either make us want to blame each other or else be in denial that there is a problem at all.
People are searching for love and that love can best be expressed in a people who practice what they preach and who are not condescending towards those outside 'the gang'. But gang fights against gang and this is as off putting as the fact that going to church is simply not seen as cool.
So some Christians will say that the reason is that many churches do not share the full gospel. And by 'the full gospel' they mean repentance and sin and hell. But the last I heard, the gospel was the story of Christ's life (and repentance and sin and hell shouldn't be taboo, but they are not the gospel).
People relate to stories, so it is these which should be used in churches. Tell stories, tell the story of Christ. Why won't this attract people?
When I first became a Christian I longed for my church to simply talk about Christ. About his life, who he was, what he did. That kind of gentleness is so lacking in places. But that kind of gentle storytelling can change a mind better than any sledgehammer of a sermon on hell, sin and repentance.
Every week many of us do the same things and I think the problem is that many of us are in denial that there even is a problem. And that may not be our fault, but do we listen to those with half-decent ideas? Or do you have to be a Christian leader to have any kind of voice?
Great post,Alyosha. This expresses my thoughts on the subject much better than I ever could.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think there's some kind of 'disconnect' now - right across the board in terms of churchmanships and traditions - and we've yet to work out a way around that.
For instance, our local parish, very evangelical, seems to work on the premise that regular, weekly attendance, home-groups, Bible studies and social activities mid-week - and lots going on (even at the risk of stretching the small number of regular volunteers to the limit) is somehow 'the norm' ...
It's not at all 'geared up' to the occasional attender or people like me who've seen it all before and aren't really bothered about going to 'comedy nights' where everyone is exhorted to invite friends and family - nor any of the other social events for that matter.
I have a social life outside of church, thank you very much - I have no desire to attend sub-standard and half-baked attempts to 'have fun' at church ...
Nor am I that interested in going to any of the so-called 'growth groups' nor the prayer meetings - because both of them do my head in and I can't sit through the 'Lord, we really just ...' prayers and the dumbed-down Bible studies.
I recognise that this puts me out on a limb and the kind of friendships that SvitlanaV2 has alluded to are unlikely to develop.
Time was, back in my full-on charismatic evangelical days when virtually all my non-working, non-family moments (as it were) were taken up with church activities.
Now, with the kids grown or growing up, I'm far more involved with non-church activities ... creative writing groups, I chair an arts committee, I'm on the town council ...
All of which I see as much of an outworking of my faith as attending church services.
I really wish they would follow the lectionary at our parish church. I'm not in the least interested in the vicar's silly preaching themes which are simply the same old-ground pietistic stuff I heard years and years ago as a student.
If they followed the lectionary, I could at least dip in and out and know where I 'was' - because I'd be following the readings at home in my daily devotions.
As it is, other than the prominent feasts and festivals, you'd get no idea where you were unless you attended every single week.
Ok - that's just me - it's not the same for the families with young kids who go to the Messy Church stuff and those who seem to enjoy the various social events that I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I'm not sure how typical we are, but I reckon our regular attendance is about 30 Sundays a year. We have a far flung family, key members still at work, and so keeping in touch requires us to be away from home for either long weekends or a week at a time. often the visits have to be arranged or rearranged at short notice, because of work complexities.
For these reasons, we came off all church rotas to avoid making promises we were unable in practice to keep. Our church membership is a 40 year thing, we have a lot of affection for the members and get as often as we can.
I've found analogous stories amongst our friends. A regular Sunday commitment is becoming more difficult for many. Apathy and indifference have very little to do with this in our experience; it seems to be much more a fact of life in our mobile, flexible-working-hours, society. I think these sociological factors may be more important than service content.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I think Alyosha makes a good point that people are searching for love, but I'm not sure that I would look for it in a church. I used to be very involved in a central London church, and helped the rector with loads of things. But it was a curiously lonely place, although no doubt for some people it was important. I don't see a lot of church activities as about intimacy, but then not everybody wants that. And then God - well, it depends on where you think he/she appears. The rector used to say that God was hammering on the door, trying to get in, well, not really.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
But this is what I like: People know my name. They keep to the lectionary. They preach the lectionary. They always have communion. There is plenty of space for God.
And I thought that this world and everything in it was in God, given that He is infinite and we are not. Show me a space without God.
Show me a space where we have time and prompts to see the God whio is there. That's Church.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jane R
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# 331
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Posted
Enoch: quote:
I suppose the question we don't ask is, 'is the church I go to so exciting that I look forward to Sunday and wakes up on Sunday morning thrilled by the thought that today I can go and meet God there'?
Steady on, old chap - remember we're British*...
Subdued but dignified handclap, that's the ticket. None of this leaping about shouting "Hallelujah!" ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
I do look forward to Sundays, as a matter of fact. If I don't go to church for some reason (illness, holidays, whatever) I feel like I've lost my anchor. But how to get that across to someone who doesn't go to church already?
*well, some of us are.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I have a horrible feeling that I'm going to throw a spanner into the polite works of this thread. For I must be honest: as a serving Minister, dedicated to leading and “building up” the church, I find this erratic attendance both disheartening and soul-destroying. During the week people blithely inform me, “Sorry, Pastor, but you won’t be seeing us this Sunday”, and my heart progressively sinks until, on Sunday morning, I sometimes wonder why I bother turning up at all, and why people expect me to lead worship “come rain, come shine”, when they themselves do not apparently have that commitment.
But why has this come to pass? I don’t think that there is one single reason. One is clearly the great variety of uses to which Sunday is now put; while Saturday is the day for shopping and domestic chores, Sunday seems to be the preferred day for all sorts of activities, especially in the summer. And one can’t really begrudge that, as one certainly wouldn’t want to return to the dreary Sunday afternoons so beautifully portrayed in “Hancock’s Half-Hour” over 50 years ago. Alongside that, of course, are the demands made by employers for flexible rostering of their staff; Sunday is now a work day for many.
I think there are some other issues involved, of course. People are increasingly mobile so can easily go off to visit an “attraction” or family members than once was the case. Equally, families have become much more geographically spread out, so a visit to see the grandchildren doesn’t just mean popping round the corner to the next street but a journey of many miles. (I sometimes do think that “family” has become the new religion of some folks; I know that the Church should promote family life but it sometimes appears to me have become too sacrosanct. But I digress).
I wonder, though, if there are deeper underlying issues. One is that present-day culture extols “choice” rather than “duty” – so “going to church” requires making a conscious decision every time, with it having to be weighed up against other options for the day. In the past no thought was required: attendance at worship was “what one did” or one’s “bounden duty”; other activities for the day had to be fitted in around it. I think this was particularly true in Nonconformist households, and possibly for Catholics too (although perhaps with slightly different motivations).
Coupled to this is the sense that Christianity has virtually become a “leisure” or “discretionary” interest, increasingly part of one’s private world. I go to church; you go walking in the country; she goes to watch football. I think that this is to be decried, as to me the Faith means far more than that. But, somehow, that attitude does seem to have seeped in to so many Christians’ thinking – you may, of course, disagree!
In a sense what we need to get back to is of faith being absolutely fundamental and important to us – and worshipping together being seen as basic to that. The writer to the Hebrews exhorted his readers to “not forsake gathering together, as some do” – considering he was writing 2000 years ago, he was remarkably prescient!
Of course I’d not want our churches to become cult-like in pressurising members to attend. But IMHO a laissez-faire approach has somehow crept in to all but the strictest, or newest, churches; while I recognise all the many points that have been raised upthread, it does seem to come down to a question of commitment and priorities, as we all manage to do the things we want to do.
I could say more: for instance, about churches adapting the timing of their services to make them more “user-friendly” – though what is better for some will inevitably less convenient for others. There is also, as others have hinted, something to do with the quality of worship; if our services can be so constructed that they reek of the numinous and touch the infinite from start to finish, they might be more attractive, especially in our modern culture which so values experience. (Having said that, there is something about church life which is also very down-to-earth and mundane; we are not in the business of lifting people to the seventh heaven or the Mount of Transfiguration, at least not every week!)
Yes, I know I've ranted. So here is a story to finish. A senior Baptist Minister of my acquaintance began his sermon by saying, “I sometimes think that the Devil invented caravans”. Of course the whole congregation – doubtless thinking of being stuck behind a slow-moving car and caravan on a twisting road – sat up and listened. He then explained how, in his former church, one man used to inform him every Easter that he and his wife would be out with their caravan virtually every weekend until the Autumn, and wouldn’t be at church. The point of the sermon was this: how can a church build up any sense of community and shared purpose if people are simply not present?
For being part of a church is not just what “I” do; it’s about being part of the Body of Christ. And that does need our time and commitment.
[ 01. June 2015, 13:14: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
There was a time when church was the essential venue for social connection. The people you met at work (if you worked) were one group, and your neighbors were another. But there were very few other ways to meet people. (You can see this in period fiction. What did the teenaged Laura Ingalls Wilder do when she wanted to meet people? She went to the church social.)
Nowadays if you are a young person overtly or covertly looking for connection you have many, many other avenues, many that don't even involve getting up out of bed. You can stay in your room and swipe right.
And that is why I believe my kids do not go to church. They have other social outlets.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
As churchgoing has declined, so it will decline. Let me unpack that with an example. Since the vast majority of members are not church-goers, when does my cycling club hold its main club rides? Why, Sunday morning of course. When the largest number of members are free.
Which would present me with more of a dilemma were not our church's services (a) only twice a month, and (b) at lunchtime.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
And, if young people don't go to church, then where do young people go to meet other young people (in the flesh)? Well, not to church. So it's a chicken/egg phenomenon.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
What is seen as wrong with the Church telling people that it is wrong not to attend on Sunday, without a good reason?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
What is seen as wrong with the Church telling people that it is wrong not to attend on Sunday, without a good reason?
The fact that we tend to respond with "Really? Says who?"
Which is actually my response. Who says it's wrong? Why?
[ 01. June 2015, 13:45: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
It's up there with visiting your parents. It's obvious why it's wrong not to.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by KarlLB quote:
As churchgoing has declined, so it will decline. Let me unpack that with an example. Since the vast majority of members are not church-goers, when does my cycling club hold its main club rides? Why, Sunday morning of course. When the largest number of members are free.
Got it in one.
When I was growing up (late 50s-60s) there was nothing to do by way of 'going out' on a Sunday morning other than church; even in the afternoon activities were strictly limited to perhaps a sports club or maybe the cinema (though ours only opened at 6pm on a Sunday). Face it, Sundays in my youth were, likely as not, pretty dull.
The church of the time thought that all those people were there because of conviction and made precious little attempt to entertain or enlighten - and some of that attitude is still prevalent among clergy and ministers.
The clergy, in particular, need to face the fact that churchgoing is seen as a 'leisure activity' (look at any 'lifestyle' survey and that is where they put churchgoing or religious activity) and, as such, is up against other leisure activities - cinemas, shopping, sports clubs and activities, etc, etc, etc. So we're asking people to choose to come to us, rather than do something or go somewhere else.
And in many churches what do they find if they venture in? A physically cold building (possibly with areas obviously uncleaned and untidy), uncomfortable seating, out-of-date instruction booklets (probably tatty too), amateurish music, stumbling announcements about events comprehensible only to those already 'in-the-know'; and the whole thing capped off with an appeal for money.
Faced with that, would you venture in? Chances are most of us would creep away and hope to escape without notice.
All that before we even get onto the image of the organisation - anyone for headship, etc?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
I thought that this world and everything in it was in God, given that He is infinite and we are not. Show me a space without God.
Show me a space where we have time and prompts to see the God whio is there. That's Church.
Yup, out in the woods, that's where time stops and you know God. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
One problem is, many churches think all people are the same and should respond the same way to whatever it is they offer, so if formal smells & bells liturgy (or dancing in place with hands in the air) turns you off, "there's something wrong with you. You need to change. you need to be like us." Church becomes a scolding place, by looks if not words.
I'd like to see more acceptance that different personalities engage with God differently, and even some guidance which style of church you might fit well in.
But also, and here I'm reacting to the news that "my" church is making a CD of the band doing familiar songs so we can use it in summer when the (hired) band leader goes on vacation, I'd like to see more invitation to "try your hand" at various things. I'll bet several in the congregation would enjoy being in a summer band or try leading one week. But to the security minded "we have to know everything will be perfectly smooth" it's too risky.
Similarly, how hard or easy is it for a lay person to start an interest group, like maybe a Christian philosophy discussion group? Many churches have high barriers, in the local TEC only seminary grads lead an adult Bible study, in my other church there are four key holders and if none of them wants to attend you can't have the group in the building and can't mention it in the bulletin if it's not in the building.
An inviting environment is not a greeter at the door, it's making it easy for people to get involved in ways they value. To me.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
It's up there with visiting your parents. It's obvious why it's wrong not to.
No it isn't. If it were, you'd not have to try to persuade people.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
It's up there with visiting your parents. It's obvious why it's wrong not to.
I think this gives some insight into why people don't go to church. To be told that you ought to, is a right turn-off. And I spent my working life saying to people that it's OK not to see your parents, and it's OK to see them. I blame postmodernism.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
I thought that this world and everything in it was in God, given that He is infinite and we are not. Show me a space without God.
Show me a space where we have time and prompts to see the God whio is there. That's Church.
Yup, out in the woods, that's where time stops and you know God.
Well it's not only church, of course. I had an intensely prayerful time walking my dog through the park the other morning. But that's what church is there for, and what it does, done properly- whatever your church style. (And if your preferred place for finding God is the woods, I think you run the risk of having a very rosy and disneyfied view of nature. I'm with +Charles Gore, who said that going to the zoo made him an atheist in five minutes- and I don't think he meant that to be a comment on the rights or wrongs of keeping animals in captivity.)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
But you know, if we actually believe all this stuff--that God became a man, that he came to rescue us, that the church is a new thing he is doing on the earth and is more like a body than a social club--that we are God's witnesses, God's servants, sent to act in the world--then why wouldn't we go to church, along with a whole lot of other lifestyle changes? Church somewhere, somewhen--I'm not going to say that a particular congregation might not be toxic or that an individual Christian might not have excellent idiosyncratic reasons for avoiding church. But if the whole lot of us across the board really believed all this stuff, there'd be no question of classifying church as a leisure activity. It would make people spurt coffee through their noses to read it.
That's why I'm thinking that the primary trouble (Yes, there are lots of others) is that by and large we don't (as a group) tend to take "all that stuff" seriously. YMMV and all that. But if only 10 to 15% of a congregation's membership is turning up on a Sunday, and there's not been some major earthquake or something, well, damn.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
I thought that this world and everything in it was in God, given that He is infinite and we are not. Show me a space without God.
Show me a space where we have time and prompts to see the God whio is there. That's Church.
Yup, out in the woods, that's where time stops and you know God.
Well it's not only church, of course. I had an intensely prayerful time walking my dog through the park the other morning. But that's what church is there for, and what it does, done properly- whatever your church style. (And if your preferred place for finding God is the woods, I think you run the risk of having a very rosy and disneyfied view of nature. I'm with +Charles Gore, who said that going to the zoo made him an atheist in five minutes- and I don't think he meant that to be a comment on the rights or wrongs of keeping animals in captivity.)
But this strikes me as absurd. You are defining certain places as proper places for God, and others as not proper. Eh? It just sounds circular to me, or an argument ad populum.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I think IngoB is right, people don't go to Church because they are not bothered with God.
They may have been enthusiastic once, but that has waned into a 'take it or leave it' attitude.
I know, because this is very much my attitude. I still go because I love the people there and it's great socialisation for my Guide Dog puppy. She is well and truly into it and even stands and sits when we all do! Godly Dog.
God? I talk to him now and again, but he doesn't respond.
(eta, I think I have confused threads, but the point is the same)
[ 01. June 2015, 15:34: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
No I'm not, quetzelcoatl. Certainly any place may be a place where God is encountered- people have, I believe, encountered God in extermination camps- but I am saying that some places can be made deliberately conducive to an encounter with God. That is what organised worship is, or should be, about (and places that have been regularly prayed in over time do have a particular ambience- "A serious house on serious ground" as i think Larkin puts it- I'm quoting from memory).
[ 01. June 2015, 15:37: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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