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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fal$e Teacher$
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Hi Bibliophile,
I know this isn't your first post, but welcome again to the ship!
Do you have anything you want to bring up to discuss here? Purgatory is for topics to be discussed. Otherwise if you'd rather make fun of bad theology, that might be fun too, but a host should probably move this to Heaven. (If you mainly wanted to show us the link, thanks but this is probably not the place.)
Gwaihir,
Purgatory Host
Thanks
Well perhaps to start a discussion I could list the false teachers named in the song
Joel Osteen
Creflo Dollar
Benny Hinn
TD Jakes
Joyce Meyer
Paula White
Fred Price
Kenneth Copeland
Robert Tilton
Eddie Long
Juanita Bynum
Paul Crouch
and ask if people here agree with the description of these people as false teachers and agree with the artist publicly identifying them by name as such in this way?
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I think we can all look at that list and agree there are aspects of their ministries and theology which we disagree with, and probably even in error. Of course, that could just be a recognition that they're human beings and like the rest of us are not perfect and get it wrong at times.
The implication from the song (and, in particular the use of $ to replace S) is that they're deliberately being false inorder to con people out of money. That is something I would not go so far as to say, and it's the sort of thing we should all be very careful about - none of us as individuals or the Ship as an entity can afford to face a defamation or libel law suit.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I am amazed at Joyce Meyer's continuing popularity, especially with women's conferences.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Never heard of any of them apart from Hinn.
Joel Osteen is an American televangelist who regularly fills huge auditoriums by the thousands. Your first impression upon looking at him is that he has too many teeth.
Creflo Dollar likewise, except for the teeth. Personally I can't get past his name, and that of his wife Taffy Dollar.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I am amazed at Joyce Meyer's continuing popularity, especially with women's conferences.
Here snarky, angry edge always troubles me as much as the prosperity gospel thing. I too am baffled by the appeal.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, a number of theological teachers - and not just frothing at the mouth ultra-Reformed types, came out in the 1990s and roundly declared that the atonement theories espoused by the likes of Copeland and Hagin were definitely heretical ...
Like Alan Cresswell, I would be wary of suggesting that the people on the list the song references are 'only in it for the money' - but I'd have no hesitation in stating that their theology is fundamentally flawed in many important respects - and with some it topples over into the heretical -- however we cut it - from a generally accepted small o orthodox position ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I wonder if the rapper has allowed that youtube channel to use their audio? It would be ironic if not, given that there is a revenue-sharing ad at the beginning of the vid.
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arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ha ha ha ...
Meanwhile, I think there's a certain unhelpful pragmatism in some charismatic evangelical circles. If something is seen to 'work' or attract a crowd then people want some of the action - irrespective of how bad or how questionable it is.
I think that accounts for the popularity of some of these figures - even among people who are wary of their theology.
'They're successful in what they do, they must be doing something right ...'
That's the unspoken assumption.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
It's interesting to consider where the boundary is between "false teacher" and someone you happen to disagree with.
I've not heard of the majority of those named, but for those I have (Osteen, Hinn, Jakes, Meyer) I can't say I have much fondness for what I've read/heard. A lot of this dislike, though is though is due to the sheer hype and razzamatazz laid on what is a pretty bland self-help message in a christian garb.
I'm not sure they're any more false, though, than the likes of the of Sea of Faith advocates, or those who propagated the sale of indulgences.
I just wouldn't be keen to read their books or hear them speak. There are plenty of alternatives for these itching ears to attend to.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ha ha ha ...
Meanwhile, I think there's a certain unhelpful pragmatism in some charismatic evangelical circles. If something is seen to 'work' or attract a crowd then people want some of the action - irrespective of how bad or how questionable it is.
I think that accounts for the popularity of some of these figures - even among people who are wary of their theology.
'They're successful in what they do, they must be doing something right ...'
That's the unspoken assumption.
Yes, sadly. The other factor is entertainment. If someone is entertaining-- particularly if they are funny we'll tolerate a host of theological sins. I remember going to a women's retreat once at a very conservative evangelical church. The outside speaker was clearly MUCH more liberal than the attendees, saying things I would never get away with-- e.g. implicitly questioning the divinity of Jesus. Had I tried that I woulda been run outta town. But the speaker did so in a very clever, funny & entertaining way-- the women were laughing and having a good time. Which apparently was all the spoonful of sugar needed to get a little heresy down.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
It's interesting to consider where the boundary is between "false teacher" and someone you happen to disagree with.
I've not heard of the majority of those named, but for those I have (Osteen, Hinn, Jakes, Meyer) I can't say I have much fondness for what I've read/heard. A lot of this dislike, though is though is due to the sheer hype and razzamatazz laid on what is a pretty bland self-help message in a christian garb.
I'm not sure they're any more false, though, than the likes of the of Sea of Faith advocates, or those who propagated the sale of indulgences.
I just wouldn't be keen to read their books or hear them speak. There are plenty of alternatives for these itching ears to attend to.
There's an interesting documentary here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iETg-9K51Wc
detailing some of the more extreme heresies taught by some of these people. These ideas (e.g. that Christians are 'little gods', that christians can speak things into existence, that Christ was united in nature with sin and Satan on the cross). These are not just little errors.
These heresies are not just incidentally linked to the 'prosperity gospel'/gospel of greed. They are its basis.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I think we can all look at that list and agree there are aspects of their ministries and theology which we disagree with, and probably even in error. Of course, that could just be a recognition that they're human beings and like the rest of us are not perfect and get it wrong at times.
The implication from the song (and, in particular the use of $ to replace S) is that they're deliberately being false inorder to con people out of money. That is something I would not go so far as to say, and it's the sort of thing we should all be very careful about - none of us as individuals or the Ship as an entity can afford to face a defamation or libel law suit.
Well the song came out a couple of years ago and no one has sued so far. In any case the $ signs could just be a reference to the 'prosperity gospel' message itself rather than the motives of the preachers themselves.
Here are a couple of short Youtube videos about a couple of the false teachers listed. The first about Creflo Dollar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLsDNxZcOa8
which features the infamous audio clip of him fantasising about shooting non tithe payers with Uzi machine guns.
and here is a short clip of Robert Tilton in his prime demanding money from his viewers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unhqk-sAtZ4
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ha ha ha ...
Meanwhile, I think there's a certain unhelpful pragmatism in some charismatic evangelical circles. If something is seen to 'work' or attract a crowd then people want some of the action - irrespective of how bad or how questionable it is.
I think that accounts for the popularity of some of these figures - even among people who are wary of their theology.
'They're successful in what they do, they must be doing something right ...'
That's the unspoken assumption.
Another Youtube video here, this one a short video of a young woman talking about how she became homeless as a teenager after her mother gave all her money away to greedy creeps like Benny Hinn and Creflo Dollar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8bkFJBJ6V8
might that be an example of 'what works'?
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I don't know what is the objection to Joel Osteen. Of course I live a long way from Houston in another country, so I have only heard him speak on the radio a few times, but it was nothing like what I think of as the prosperity gospel.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think Joel Osteen is somewhat different - insofar that this emphasis isn't always so overt in what he says -- from what I can gather.
I've heard that Osteen tends to avoid controversial topics, so, by and large, what he preaches is a fairly 'beige' feel-good-factor type Gospel. It's quite aspirational and so on, but doesn't involve the kinds of rants that one might expect from this particular stable.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I don't know what is the objection to Joel Osteen. Of course I live a long way from Houston in another country, so I have only heard him speak on the radio a few times, but it was nothing like what I think of as the prosperity gospel.
I know next to nothing about him, but another name on the list, Joyce Meyer, hardly seems like a prosperity gospeller either. Reading about her on wiki, she does appear to be a very rich woman, but she seems to have been clean of any impropriety, seems no worse than, say, the purpose driven Warren, and one friend of mine, who has a pretty sharp nose for spiritual BS, speaks highly of her books, and clearly thinks she's well within the bounds of orthodoxy. I've not read any of her work, but I do know who she is, unlike anyone else on the list, apart from the bizarrely coiffured Hinn, a man for whom I have no time whatsoever.
[ 10. June 2015, 19:43: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Bibliophile - I think it was aboard Ship at some point that someone posted a link to a You Tube video of a Canadian or North West USA (I forget which, I'm sorry) news story about a girl with severe disabilities who had been turned away from the 'healing line' at a Benny Hinn meeting.
It's well-known that Hinn and other 'healing evangelists' have teams who vet the people who go up onto the stage and they tend to turn away anyone who looks like a 'difficult case'.
Anyway, the report showed her and her 'mom' coming to terms with that and the girl going on to learn the piano to a high level and have a fulfilling life despite her condition and the sense of 'rejection' she'd suffered at the hands of the health-wealth mob.
It was fairly cheesy on one level, but quite heart-warming nevertheless.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Again, I think Joyce Meyer lies towards the more 'acceptable' end of the 'prosperity-gospel' spectrum - and her books do seem to be popular and have a following beyond that immediate constituency.
I'm still uncomfortable with anything that remotely smacks of any connection with that particular stable ... but as with anything else there are shades and nuances.
Not all the preachers and congregations influenced by these particular teachers go in for everything that they teach or proclaim.
For my money (ha ha), I'd draw up a sliding scale of respectability / orthodoxy if you like -- with some near the bottom of it and others towards the top end.
These things aren't always clear-cut. If they were so obviously off-the-wall on all points and aspects then they'd never get a hearing at all.
Even with the more 'acceptable' ones, I'd suggest that people who engage this stuff tread very carefully indeed as there are very subtle (and some not so subtle) emphases that can lead even quite savvy people out of whack ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I really think we are scraping the barrel here. Some rapper doesn't like a bunch of visible wealthy Christians. OK. So?
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arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well yes, but it's not just about the money but the theology. With some it's simply a more exaggerated version of US-style self-help ideology in Christianised form.
With others it veers into out and out heresy by aanyone's standards.
I agree with Sipech that it's no worse than Sea of Faith and so on - but there are plenty of people who'd reject Sea of Faith who'd fall for some of the more extreme 'word of faith' nonsense.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I really think we are scraping the barrel here. Some rapper doesn't like a bunch of visible wealthy Christians. OK. So?
I don't think it's about the fact that they are wealthy. There are others I'd throw under the bus if that were the case (yes, Waltons, I'm looking at you). It's specifically about prosperity gospel-- which is very problematic theologically, and has led to some real problems-- particularly in the developing world. I apologized to the seminary students I taught in central Africa, telling them it was one of our worst exports to them.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I like the list. Religion can be big hellish business. If you see these guys in heaven, best make sure it's heaven that you're in and request a transfer to that other place.
Benny Hinn, Benny Hill. I like Hill better.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Never heard of any of them apart from Hinn.
Joel Osteen is an American televangelist who regularly fills huge auditoriums by the thousands. Your first impression upon looking at him is that he has too many teeth.
Which reminds me of that phenomenon where believers got gold fillings. A sort of divine national health service dentistry.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I agree with Sipech
I nearly fell off my chair with surprise! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Hmm - I've been lent a Meyer book called something like "The Secret Power of Speaking God's Word", which sounded more like magic than Christianity to me. Reading a few bits of it didn't shake my initial response.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Hmm - I've been lent a Meyer book called something like "The Secret Power of Speaking God's Word", which sounded more like magic than Christianity to me. Reading a few bits of it didn't shake my initial response.
Indeed. The 'word of faith' is very similar to the occult idea of 'law of attraction. When you consider other aspects of this theology e.g. focus on the self, the idea that people are 'little gods' the similarities with occultism become more obvious.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Hmm - I've been lent a Meyer book called something like "The Secret Power of Speaking God's Word", which sounded more like magic than Christianity to me. Reading a few bits of it didn't shake my initial response.
Indeed. The 'word of faith' is very similar to the occult idea of 'law of attraction. When you consider other aspects of this theology e.g. focus on the self, the idea that people are 'little gods' the similarities with occultism become more obvious.
"Occultism" is a broad and ill-defined term, covering anything that "looks a bit weird". Word of Faith stuff does put me in mind of some aspects of ritual magic, specifically, where invoking spiritual powers using the right words and in the right way forced a particular result. But then you could argue that about the Eucharist as well the way some people talk.
I certainly wouldn't these days go as far as Hunt and McMahon did (anyone remember 'The Seduction of Christianity'?), but then from where I sit one bunch of fundamentalists with a bee in their bonnet is as alien as another.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think Joel Osteen is somewhat different - insofar that this emphasis isn't always so overt in what he says -- from what I can gather.
I've heard that Osteen tends to avoid controversial topics, so, by and large, what he preaches is a fairly 'beige' feel-good-factor type Gospel. It's quite aspirational and so on, but doesn't involve the kinds of rants that one might expect from this particular stable.
Watering down sewerage makes it more marketable, he wouldn't be so popular if he was as blatant as the likes of Benny Hinn or Robert Tilton, but water mixed with sewage is still sewage.
quote:
From Your Best Life Now: “If you want success, if you want wisdom, if you want to be prosperous and healthy, you’re going to have to do more than meditate and believe; you must boldly declare words of faith and victory over yourself and your family.” God will make you prosperous if only you “declare words of victory.”
http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/09/04/joel-osteen-wife-heretics-thats-america-loves/
This is the same self centred, occultic, heretical nonsense that people like Ken Copeland, Benny Hinn and indeed Joyce Meyer teach.
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Never heard of any of them apart from Hinn.
Joel Osteen is an American televangelist who regularly fills huge auditoriums by the thousands. Your first impression upon looking at him is that he has too many teeth.
Oh Grandma, what nice shiny white teeth you have!
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
As it so happens, husband en rouge and I were discussing Benny Hinn over dinner last night. He was telling me how he once harshed Benny Hinn’s mellow.
Back in the day, husband en rouge was a member of a large charismatic church in Paris (it still exists, but I believe it’s quite a lot smaller than it once was). He was the keyboard player/worship leader. This was in the days when collapsing on the floor was all the vogue, about the late 90s.
Benny Hinn’s big Parisian event was hosted by this particular church and his team were praying for a “special anointing” on the musicians. At this point the whole worship band sank to the ground in a stupor… with the honourable exception of husband en rouge, who stayed standing up, looking annoyed (he had already been less than impressed with the preaching). When he was prevailed upon to collapse, he declaimed in a suitably loud voice, “I am not falling over. I am a standing up Christian.” He reckons it wrecked the event for them.
(I just thought you’d enjoy the story.)
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I agree with Sipech that it's no worse than Sea of Faith .
Sea of Faith isn't a wealthy organisation and its leaders risk their jobs in some dioceses. No comparison.
Heresy is heresy even if the false teacher doesn't get rich spouting it.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes - good story La Vie en Rouge.
@Bibliophile - whilst I agree with you about the toxicity of the prosperity-gospel and the word-of-faith malarkey -- it's a form of carcinogenic, fast-food Christianity -- I do think there is a danger of people becoming fixated with it in the opposite way ie. developing an unhealthy obsession with going around trying to debunk and expose it.
I'm not suggesting you are doing so, nor am I suggesting it shouldn't be debunked and exposed but I've seen a number of people who've become so obsessed with distancing themselves from this side of things and in exposing it to show how 'sound' and sensible they are by contrast with it that they get themselves all het up and hot and bothered ...
That can't be healthy either.
Yes, the influence of these people can be pernicious and one of the things that bothered me back in the '80s and '90s was the extent to which it was beginning to influence mainstream evangelical and charismatic circles ... and the Toronto thing gave a bit of a boost for that to an extent ...
I've even picked up some echoes and influences within Anglican charismaticism ... although it's less of an issue there than in some other settings. Or at least, it was ...
That said, I do wonder how prevailing an influence there's been ... these guys are quite visible on the Christian TV networks and so on but they haven't really come to the attention of the wider public. Here in the UK, people would be aware that there's a history of odd and whacky TV evangelicalism - but they wouldn't necessarily have been exposed to it.
I've met people who've watched some of this stuff on US TV channels when they've been on holiday in Florida or wherever -- but by and large I don't think most Brits - or continental Europeans for that matter - would be very aware of this sort of thing.
As for the influence of it within Christian circles ... I suspect it comes and goes in cycles and varies according to where you happen to be.
I don't see a lot of this stuff these days as I don't move in full-on charismatic circles so much - although I have friends and contacts who do.
It certainly doesn't feel as prevalent as it did at one time - but that simply be because I'm not rubbing shoulders with people who are into this sort of thing. It might be different where you are, Bibliophile.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I agree with Sipech that it's no worse than Sea of Faith .
Sea of Faith isn't a wealthy organisation and its leaders risk their jobs in some dioceses. No comparison.
No comparison except in the misrepresenting God and the Bible stakes. Then there's 100% convergence - albeit in different ways.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It certainly doesn't feel as prevalent as it did at one time - but that simply be because I'm not rubbing shoulders with people who are into this sort of thing. It might be different where you are, Bibliophile.
No, it's not around as much.
It tends to be a bit Bill Johnson/Bethel type stuff or the Alan Hirsch Missional-Intentional (add al to any word you like), new emerging congregations. Conferences aren't what they were and even the BU Assembly is down to one day. There tends to be a lot more local stuff done these days and less denominational too.
The trouble with the preachers mentioned is that they buy into the American Dream of continuing improvement and stuff going well. Life isn't like that and perhaps the church could understand that more. It's a theology of healing and suffering alongside a theology of hope and challenge. We have to deal with the times when seemingly God does not appear to be intervening.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
We have to deal with the times when seemingly God does not appear to be intervening.
Alternatively, He is intervening, and we just don't like it.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Speaking as an ex-Christian, it's probably as well to keep in mind that the religion's long history includes many, many differing (sometimes wildly so) manifestations, right from the get-go -- Gnostics, Manicheans, and all the rest. That continues into the present day. And many Christians, also right from the get-go, have seen various of these manifestations as an enormous threat to the faith (whatever that 'faith' is, or however defined).
Yet here we all are, 2,100 years later, with Christianity claimed by a vast number of the planet's human inhabitants as the monotheism-of-choice, and I suspect that the process will continue long after we're all dust, and the whole monotheistic enterprise has somehow resolved itself into a kind of Judachrislam pretty much both embraced and ignored in equal measure (as Christianity basically is now by its adherents) by pretty much everybody.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I like the list. Religion can be big hellish business. If you see these guys in heaven, best make sure it's heaven that you're in and request a transfer to that other place.
Benny Hinn, Benny Hill. I like Hill better.
There is of course a 2 for 1 offer available
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
As it so happens, husband en rouge and I were discussing Benny Hinn over dinner last night. He was telling me how he once harshed Benny Hinn’s mellow.
Back in the day, husband en rouge was a member of a large charismatic church in Paris (it still exists, but I believe it’s quite a lot smaller than it once was). He was the keyboard player/worship leader. This was in the days when collapsing on the floor was all the vogue, about the late 90s.
Benny Hinn’s big Parisian event was hosted by this particular church and his team were praying for a “special anointing” on the musicians. At this point the whole worship band sank to the ground in a stupor… with the honourable exception of husband en rouge, who stayed standing up, looking annoyed (he had already been less than impressed with the preaching). When he was prevailed upon to collapse, he declaimed in a suitably loud voice, “I am not falling over. I am a standing up Christian.” He reckons it wrecked the event for them.
(I just thought you’d enjoy the story.)
Thank you for that. I did. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes - good story La Vie en Rouge.
@Bibliophile - whilst I agree with you about the toxicity of the prosperity-gospel and the word-of-faith malarkey -- it's a form of carcinogenic, fast-food Christianity -- I do think there is a danger of people becoming fixated with it in the opposite way ie. developing an unhealthy obsession with going around trying to debunk and expose it.
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Good point.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I agree with Sipech that it's no worse than Sea of Faith .
Sea of Faith isn't a wealthy organisation and its leaders risk their jobs in some dioceses. No comparison.
No comparison except in the misrepresenting God and the Bible stakes. Then there's 100% convergence - albeit in different ways.
They don't claim to be Bible-believing but they do a good service in debunking the idols/false gods that some religious people believe in.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
When he was prevailed upon to collapse, he declaimed in a suitably loud voice, “I am not falling over. I am a standing up Christian.”
"Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus" (or collapse as you are able).
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I agree with Sipech that it's no worse than Sea of Faith and so on - but there are plenty of people who'd reject Sea of Faith who'd fall for some of the more extreme 'word of faith' nonsense.
And vice-versa, I expect. Plenty of people would see through the obvious con of the prosperity gospel but be taken in by the post-modernist wafflings of the sea of faith.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by leo:
They don't claim to be Bible-believing but they do a good service in debunking the idols/false gods that some religious people believe in.
Anybody preaching a version of Christianity compatible with atheism is a false teacher. Sea of Faith isn't debunking anything. The clergy holding on to their positions while rejecting the beliefs they uphold are cowards. John Shelby Spong holds some of the same beliefs as Sea of Faith and has made quite a bit money promoting those views. Is he a false teacher simply because he is making money from his heresy?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
... Is he a false teacher simply because he is making money from his heresy?
I thought what makes a person a false teacher is if what they are saying is false, untrue, a lie, a travesty.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Leo said that Sea of Faith wasn't a wealthy organization so there was no comparison with Osteen and company. I was responding to that. Frankly, Osteen's uses his pulpit to preach a gospel of self-help. It's not really heresy but neither is it uniquely Christian. Osteen occupies the same position as Norman Vincent Peale and everybody adored him. He was a nice well educated Protestant clergyman not one of those crazy yokels with a tent.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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