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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Shot while praying
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
What is the world coming to when you can be shot while at church in a prayer meeting (as in Charleston, USA)?
And the USA reckons ISIS are evil in part because they bomb mosques that belong to a "denomination" different from theirs.
Sounds from the outside like yet another example of why it is daft to have a God-given "right" to shoot anyone any time [or at least constitutional "right" for anyone to "bear arms"].
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I konw that gun-control is a political hot potato in the US, but the response (or lack thereof) to a series of incidents over the years has been very different to what happened in the UK after similar events (I don't really know what sort of enquiries and changes in law happened in other countries who have experienced such events).
In the UK there have been several instances of someone walking down a street shooting people at random, or entering a school and shooting pupils and teachers. In addition to the criminal investigation these events have bene followed by an enquiry. The enquiries included focussing on questions of how this nutter had a gun (almost always legally), and how to make it harder for people who might contemplate such actions in the future from having access to a gun. I don't think anyone would disagree that preventing people getting guns is more effective than any attempt to protect people from someone who is armed.
I'm pretty sure that each such enquiry has been followed by changes in the law to restrict gun ownership - to reduce the number of things for which one may legitimately own a gun, to tighten regulations on storage of guns and license requirements etc.
If US legislators have made it harder for potential lunatics to own guns after each of the spate of school shootings over the years that hasn't been reported in our news media.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I'm not American, and I've only been to the USA once in my life. That was to California, which I gather is a cultural world away from South Carolina. I don't know enough about American history and culture to offer a critique. But I believe that every time something like this happens, the sensible, decent Americans - the majority - who question a culture in which this can happen, gain some ground in their argument. More power to them.
I was heartened this morning to come across this clip of Jon Stewart talking on the subject - and more heartened by the applause he got.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If US legislators have made it harder for potential lunatics to own guns after each of the spate of school shootings over the years that hasn't been reported in our news media.
No, they really haven't. And it seems to remain politically impossible for them to do so.
Interestingly, in South Africa, the doctors (primaily paediatric surgeons who were fed up with kids getting shot) successfully campaigned for tighter laws and saw a significant drop in gunshot wounds in children.
There are some really good studies from the states that show having a gun makes you around 4.5 times more likely to be shot.
But still, I don't expect to see any change soon.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Then I'm not American, so what do I know?
AFZ
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
US Shipmates will tell us that the vast majority of gun-crime in the US is perpetrated by people with illegal fire-arms ... ie. it's largely drug and gang-related.
The lone nutter wandering into a shopping mall, cinema or church and firing indescriminately is mercifully rare and accounts for a small proportion of gun deaths across the country.
Attitudes vary both across and within States and between urban and rural areas.
I must admit, comments on the Ship by US posters has curbed my previous tendency to scoff and carp at the US over this issue - and I can see why it would be appropriate for US citizens to have the right to bear arms - at least in certain areas.
All that said, I do think that's something terribly amiss -- but the issue is more complicated and nuanced than it can look to those of us with an ocean or hemisphere between us and the USA.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Alan: quote:
I'm pretty sure that each such enquiry has been followed by changes in the law to restrict gun ownership - to reduce the number of things for which one may legitimately own a gun, to tighten regulations on storage of guns and license requirements etc.
They did change the law after Hungerford and Dunblane, but not after Derek Bird's shooting spree. ISTR that the government decided that the laws on who could own a shotgun were already as strict as was reasonable.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
US Shipmates will tell us that the vast majority of gun-crime in the US is perpetrated by people with illegal fire-arms ... ie. it's largely drug and gang-related.
That would be true everywhere. It seems that in the UK we don't have as big of a gang issue as there is in US cities, and events like drive-by shootings seems to be very unusual here. Of course, I don't live in an inner city estate, and maybe guns are more prevalent there than I see in the media. We do seem to have quite a high incidence of robberies involving guns though, but waving a gun around gets the attention of people who decide not to interfere while the crooks swipe the goods without the guns being fired. An innocent bystander getting shot in a drug related turf war, during a robbery, or similar is something unusual that makes headline news here.
No matter how strict gun laws are, I can't see any way of stopping a hardened criminal or a drug gang from getting guns. But, strict gun laws must surely reduce the ability of ordinary people going off the rails being able to get a gun, and reduce the number of accidental deaths and injuries caused by guns being too readily accessible in the home.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Alan: quote:
I'm pretty sure that each such enquiry has been followed by changes in the law to restrict gun ownership - to reduce the number of things for which one may legitimately own a gun, to tighten regulations on storage of guns and license requirements etc.
They did change the law after Hungerford and Dunblane, but not after Derek Bird's shooting spree. ISTR that the government decided that the laws on who could own a shotgun were already as strict as was reasonable.
Thanks for that info.
There does come a point where further changes would be unreasonable. I have no problem with an enquiry reaching a "we don't need to change things" decision. But, an enquiry into a gun related incident on which gun-laws were not even on the table would seem very strange to me.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Alan: quote:
I'm pretty sure that each such enquiry has been followed by changes in the law to restrict gun ownership - to reduce the number of things for which one may legitimately own a gun, to tighten regulations on storage of guns and license requirements etc.
They did change the law after Hungerford and Dunblane, but not after Derek Bird's shooting spree. ISTR that the government decided that the laws on who could own a shotgun were already as strict as was reasonable.
Thanks for that info.
There does come a point where further changes would be unreasonable. I have no problem with an enquiry reaching a "we don't need to change things" decision. But, an enquiry into a gun related incident on which gun-laws were not even on the table would seem very strange to me.
although, after both Bird and Moat, I believe they did review the stringency of the checks into whether the checks are being carried out at licence application/renewal (if that makes sense).
Ie, the legislators (probably quite wisely) decided that given the number of people with a quite legitimate need for a shotgun or small rifle (and with virtually all other fireamrs already prohibited*) , any further ban on the tools would be unreasonable - but the problem might lie with the procedures governing the licence.
*Seriously, until I think after Hungerford, people were tooling around the countryside with army-issue assault rifles and sub-machines held legitimately for "rabitting." I believe Ryan at Hungerford was carrying, amongst other things, a legally held Chinese AK47. Nearly 30 years on, that may as well be a different planet - it beggars belief.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
It appears Roof was legally prohibited from packing heat because he had pending felony charges. It also appears he had the gun because his father gave it to him. It also appears that if his dad knew of the pending felony charges, his dad could be put away for 10 years.
It was a little more than shot while praying. It was being shot while praying by the guy had sat next to you for the past hour.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Luckily, the NRA has the answer.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I was wondering how the NRA would manage to comment on this incident without actually saying "more black people should have guns".
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
... No matter how strict gun laws are, I can't see any way of stopping a hardened criminal or a drug gang from getting guns. But, strict gun laws must surely reduce the ability of ordinary people going off the rails being able to get a gun, and reduce the number of accidental deaths and injuries caused by guns being too readily accessible in the home.
Unfortunately, the logic applied in the USA is ordinary people should not be restricted from getting guns when criminals can apparently get as many guns as they want. And that the fantasy of being a hero one day outweighs all the actual accidental deaths, suicides, and murders involving ordinary people and their guns. Even our little virtual community isn't safe - we lost a Shipmate to the gun culture in the USA. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Really, I must have been preoccupied with other stuff - which Shippie was it who was shot and killed in the US?
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
The trouble is -- as far as the gun thing goes across the Pond, the NRA are actually quite moderate compared with some of the more ardent, 'You ain't gonna take ma shootin' irons off a-me' types.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
On the Hungerford thing - yes. Until Ryan went on the rampage I didn't actually know that it had been legal to own AK47s and what-not here ...
I'd just assumed that it wasn't legal to own anything more powerful than a .22 air rifle or a shotgun ... because those were the only firearms I'd ever seen anyone used or used myself -- generally to fire wide and stop my mates from taking pot shots at blackbirds - in the case of the air-rifles - and at clay-pigeons in the case of the shotguns.
I've had US pundits say to me, 'Why did you allow yourselves to be disarmed?'
To which I've always replied, 'Well, I wasn't aware that we were actually armed in the first place ...'
The problem, it seems to me, is the kind of visceral and inveterate connection that the US makes between gun ownership and civil liberties / freedom.
I can understand where that comes from - the 2nd Amendment - but it's all taken completely out of context of course -- the original context being 'a well regulated militia' not individual ownership of anything from a pop-gun through automatic weapons to anti-tank missiles and a thermo-nuclear device.
I've had Americans say to me that the citizenry should be allowed by right to have access to whatever weaponry the military have ...
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
That sort of thing seems ingrained in some areas of some States. The reality is that no US administration is going to be able to tackle the issue of levying stricter levels of gun control without there being civil unrest or a violent backlash.
The whole thing seems to be polarising and getting worse to me -- both the US right and the US left seem to be increasingly paranoid from where I'm sitting.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
US Shipmates will tell us that the vast majority of gun-crime in the US is perpetrated by people with illegal fire-arms ... ie. it's largely drug and gang-related.
The lone nutter wandering into a shopping mall, cinema or church and firing indescriminately is mercifully rare and accounts for a small proportion of gun deaths across the country.
Sure, but it's not all gang shootings either. It's a lot of accidental shootings by/of a kid who finds the "unloaded" gun dad keeps in bedside table, or a domestic/bar argument that escalates and instead of throwing a shoe or smashing a plate, someone grabs that "unloaded" gun, or the homeowner who shoots the intruder who broke into the family home-- and turns out to be a teenager sneaking in after curfew.
Mercifully rare? Sadly, no.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Attitudes vary both across and within States and between urban and rural areas.
I must admit, comments on the Ship by US posters has curbed my previous tendency to scoff and carp at the US over this issue - and I can see why it would be appropriate for US citizens to have the right to bear arms - at least in certain areas.
For this US resident, when it comes to handguns-- no, not really. Some areas it's useful and perhaps even necessary to have a rifle for hunting or protection against bears (encountered one this weekend-- in the suburbs!) or other critters. But handguns? No, really no place that's "appropriate".
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
All that said, I do think that's something terribly amiss -- but the issue is more complicated and nuanced than it can look to those of us with an ocean or hemisphere between us and the USA.
It's honestly not that complicated. It's raw political manipulation by a powerful gun lobby. Full stop.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I live in the US. And we have done this before; every time there is a major massacre the cry goes up for gun control. The gun lobby is too strong, and it never goes anywhere.
They have had a grand time these last 6 years or so, assuring us that Obama's plan is to confiscate everyone's gun. This got all the loons out to stock up, making the manufacturers as happy as clams. That this mass confiscation shows no signs of actually happening is but a bagatelle.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It appears Roof was legally prohibited from packing heat because he had pending felony charges. It also appears he had the gun because his father gave it to him. It also appears that if his dad knew of the pending felony charges, his dad could be put away for 10 years.
Despite earlier reports that the gun was a gift from his father it now appears Dylann Roof bought the gun himself.
quote:
One key part of this horrific scheme -- the weapon -- came in April, when Roof bought a .45-caliber handgun at a Charleston gun store, the two law enforcement officials told Perez and Bruer from CNN, the first network to report this development. His grandfather says that Roof was given "birthday money" and that the family didn't know what Roof did with it.
Of course there's always the possibility that Dylann Roof is lying to protect his father. We'll have to see what the gun store has to say on the matter.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm not American, and I've only been to the USA once in my life. That was to California, which I gather is a cultural world away from South Carolina. I don't know enough about American history and culture to offer a critique. But I believe that every time something like this happens, the sensible, decent Americans - the majority - who question a culture in which this can happen, gain some ground in their argument. More power to them.
I was heartened this morning to come across this clip of Jon Stewart talking on the subject - and more heartened by the applause he got.
Thanks, Adeodatus,
And my Facebook watch last night indicated that that was being shared everywhere. ( Particularly among my American Shipmate friends, Gamaliel.)
I am glad he put a face on the despair a lot of us feel about the issue.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
What is the world coming to when you can be shot while at church in a prayer meeting (as in Charleston, USA)?
Why is it so much worse because they were praying?
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This incident is horrible, but if it hadn't happened, there would be no significant variation in the percentage of people shot to death in the US. People are killed every day because of guns. Because guns are prevelant. Children die by the dozens each year because mommy and daddy wanted to protect them from baddies. People kill friends, and strangers because they got mad and had a gun before a cool down. People are killed because someone else was careless. All those deaths are somehow OK because of the vague fear of criminals and the government.
Greater access to guns means greater numbers of dead people. Full fucking stop.
I don't hate America, but if there were a reason, it would be guns.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
What is the world coming to when you can be shot while at church in a prayer meeting (as in Charleston, USA)?
Why is it so much worse because they were praying?
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This incident is horrible, but if it hadn't happened, there would be no significant variation in the percentage of people shot to death in the US. People are killed every day because of guns. Because guns are prevelant. Children die by the dozens each year because mommy and daddy wanted to protect them from baddies. People kill friends, and strangers because they got mad and had a gun before a cool down. People are killed because someone else was careless. All those deaths are somehow OK because of the vague fear of criminals and the government.
Greater access to guns means greater numbers of dead people. Full fucking stop.
I don't hate America, but if there were a reason, it would be guns.
Yes. As was said after (not even the last) mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary, "there is a Newtown happening every day in the US".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Really, I must have been preoccupied with other stuff - which Shippie was it who was shot and killed in the US?
Genevieve was shot by (IIRC) a mentally ill, homeless person who had been receiving food from Genevieve's church. He couldn't afford food, but he somehow obtained a gun -- despite mental health issues.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Just a year ago here in Phoenix, a recently-released felon broke into a Roman Catholic rectory where two priests lived. He had no gun, but had an angle iron as a weapon, which he used to beat Father Terra. Father Terra got away long enough to go into his bedroom and retrieve a gun that he kept for self-defense. The suspect then wrestled the weapon away and shot and killed Father Kenneth Walker, who had woken when he heard the disturbance and tried to assist Father Terra.
Sorry NRA, but Father Walker might still be alive if his roommate hadn’t kept a gun for his and his roommate’s own “safety.”
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Gosh - I remember Genevieve and knew she had died but I hadn't realised the circumstances.
Meanwhile, thanks Cliffdweller, Kelly Alves and other US posters for clarifying some points. I don't live in the US, of course, but Cliffdweller's point about hand-guns makes sense to me -- as, sadly, does the news that people have been going out and stocking up because the gun-lobbyists have been putting it about that Obama's about to take everyone's guns off them.
I'm careful what I say as I have gone a bit over-the-top in the past and upset some US posters with overly personal remarks that were meant to be satirical but which went beyond the 10 Commandments here.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I think the statement by President Obama was very brave when he said quote:
At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this kind of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn't happen in other places with this kind of frequency. It is in our power to do something about it.
One can only hope that it leads to some soul-searching - not about gun control per se but more about the mindset that sees opening fire on fellow citizens as a legitimate act.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oh, thank God that he said that. About time.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Really, I must have been preoccupied with other stuff - which Shippie was it who was shot and killed in the US?
Genevieve was shot by (IIRC) a mentally ill, homeless person who had been receiving food from Genevieve's church. He couldn't afford food, but he somehow obtained a gun -- despite mental health issues.
I knew there were others. I was actually thinking of jlg, who died by suicide after shooting (not fatally) two others.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, thank God that he said that. About time.
And pray that the people who need to hear him have their ears opened.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
Not only do I think the NRA is off-base on their response to this outrage, but to all their responses to gun violence. They are the most powerful lobby in Congress. They appeal to the fear that the so-called "low-information voters" have about their own security--and even promote the idea that without a stockpile of weapons at the ready we are all going to die!! It has nothing to do with security, really, or the constitution. It has a lot to do with power and how drunk with it the NRA is.
Meanwhile, I look at the shooter and he seems so young (apologies to 20-somethings on the ship). I wonder how someone that young has become so brainwashed.
I ask myself what can a loving person who believes in a loving god do? I want to believe that love put into the world will conquer hate, but my faith is tested time and again.
The cynical part of me thinks that this will bring us all together for the short term but that when it comes to actually doing something, the usual tools of power and money will subvert any rational moves to change things.
I ask god to look down on us in all our imperfections and take pity. I ask god to heal our broken world.
Let peace begin with me, and I ask god to give me and all who want a peaceful world the strength to do our bit.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
The purpose of a gun is to kill, so why am I not surprised that massacres happen when people are allowed to own guns. If people demand the right to bear arms, then I'm afraid they must live (and die) with the consequences.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
The pastor who died was on record voting in favor of gun control. But I guess by virtue of living somewhere where gun control efforts are failing, he had it coming, right?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The pastor who died was on record voting in favor of gun control. But I guess by virtue of living somewhere where gun control efforts are failing, he had it coming, right?
That seems to be what the NRA are saying.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That seems to be what the NRA are saying.
Not quite - the NRA are saying that it's his fault that they are dead, because if he hadn't voted for gun control, everyone at the bible study could have been packing heat, and would have been able to kill the attacker.
So it's his fault, but not for insufficient gun control (the NRA does not believe gun control can ever be successful). It's his fault that they have any gun control at all, and that caused his death.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
See, the NRA is sort of given to making shudder worthy statements, but given the usual level of intelligence and compassion displayed by the average Shipmate, it is kind of jarring to see a statement here that comes across as gloating over how an unresolved legislative struggle has contributed to the death of several people.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I am a US Shipmate and I can tell you that the racist shooters--in fact most of the mass shooters of the last 10 years and beyond LEGALLY got their guns. They purchased them or they were purchased by someone else for them.
The common thread I am seeing with all the racist killes is the excuse that they had to do it because [the blacks] have been raping all the white women.
They dread the browning of America.
It does not help to have a racist flag flying over the governor's mansion in South Carolina.
Roof was so far into his racism he had a jacket with both the Rhodesian flag and the White Union of South Africa flag on one of his coats. There is a group of extemists out there there who claim the white race has been exterminated in those countries.
Give a racist a gun and some bad stuff can happen.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
They dread the browning of America.
It does not help to have a racist flag flying over the governor's mansion in South Carolina.
Roof was so far into his racism he had a jacket with both the Rhodesian flag and the White Union of South Africa flag on one of his coats. There is a group of extemists out there there who claim the white race has been exterminated in those countries.
Give a racist a gun and some bad stuff can happen.
To clarify, Gramps, by "Legislative struggle" I meant the struggle Americans have to try to pass sane gun legislation in the face of gun culture entrenchment.
As to the above--that's another thing that bothered me about bib's post-- it kind of hinted that the NRA and people like Roof are definitive Americans while the victims somehow are not. Which idea is both insulting to the victims, and reinforces the idea that brown folk are lesser citizens than white Americans. Why give white supremacists what they want-- a definition of American as white, conservative, and subjugating?
And F--- that flag. If the governor had any balls, he would exercise his right to bear arms by pulling out a Swiss Army knife and cutting the rope on that damn thing, with his bare hands.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
... As to the above--that's another thing that bothered me about bib's post-- it kind of hinted that the NRA and people like Roof are definitive Americans while the victims somehow are not. Which idea is both insulting to the victims, and reinforces the idea that brown folk are lesser citizens than white Americans. ...
Kelly, I may be wrong. I can't interpret someone else's intentions for them. But I think that's very unlikely and almost certainly unfair to bib. What he/she actually said was,
quote:
The purpose of a gun is to kill, so why am I not surprised that massacres happen when people are allowed to own guns. If people demand the right to bear arms, then I'm afraid they must live (and die) with the consequences.
To any non-US person, who doesn't live in a gun-totting culture, that statement isn't a political statement or a verdict on ethnicity - who is a true American. If you allow/encourage people to be armed, some of them will get shot. Usually they will be the wrong people. Guns are dangerous things. So, for that matter are cars, lorries and buses. They kill a lot of people too, but that isn't what we have them for. At least people don't very often drive at others deliberately or threaten them with a chevvy.
Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps those of us in the rest of the world are wrong. But from outside the US, a lot of casual shootings and occasional massacres are the automatic downside of having an armed population.
Unfortunately, it's also true that if guns are readily available, if even any petty criminal is probably carrying one, and if the police are ineffective, one can't really forbid the law-abiding public from arming to protect themselves.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
A UK radio programme last night was discussing the issue with a USA commentator who lives over here. I had to turn it off. He was pushing the NRA view of the need for everyone to be armed, and saying how afraid he was here of knife crime. I don't know where he goes, but I reckon he isn't black and/or between the ages of 15 and 30, so is unlikely to suffer from it. He talked over the presenter and the other speaker so they couldn't challenge him effectively.
Does the NRA have investments in arms manufacturers?
Curious that a concern about rapists leads to the killing of women.
How wonderful the victims' families are in forgiving, and the consideration paid to the shooter's family as well.
[ 20. June 2015, 08:58: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Kelly, that's a non sequitur.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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hilaryg
Shipmate
# 11690
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Posted
I lived in the US for three years. I noticed that after an incident like this (I was there when Sandy Hook happened), there seemed to be the expected collective grief and anger. But the feeling of "something must be done" seemed to rapidly dissipate into a collective shrug of the shoulders and "meh, what can you do?".
To a Brit, this seemed odd, and when I talked to people about why the momentum for change seemed to disappear so quickly, I got the impression that they think the USA is just too big for any change to actually take place. That if you can't cure a problem such as high gun deaths, than there is no point in trying to make any difference at all.
This view seemed to be consistent across the political spectrum, so I had to conclude it's a cultural thing. In the UK we are far more likely to go on a protest, write to our MP, campaign or even throw a riot to make our voices heard.
I think there is another factor at play too - the UK/European tendency to collectivism means that 'something is done' easier vs the US focus on individualism, where it is harder to get consensus for paradigm-shifts in thinking.
Posts: 261 | From: back home in England | Registered: Jul 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've had Americans say to me that the citizenry should be allowed by right to have access to whatever weaponry the military have ...
That sort of thing seems ingrained in some areas of some States.
Even in the gun states there are exceptions. I have been in a bar in Arizona where there was a rack for guns by the door and it was strictly 'you will not be served if armed.'
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hilaryg:
This view seemed to be consistent across the political spectrum, so I had to conclude it's a cultural thing. In the UK we are far more likely to go on a protest, write to our MP, campaign or even throw a riot to make our voices heard.
I have no figures handy to back this up, but the problem isn't individualism. Polling I've read shows that a substantial majority of US voters back tighter gun control. We do write to our reps; we do stage demonstrations.
The real problem is our legislators and the power of the gun lobby, whose money apparently outweighs our votes.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
And then this happens. If you can't access the link, Sharonda Singleton's son says
quote:
We already forgive him for what he's done, and there's nothing but love from our side of the family.
Radiant faith.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hilaryg:
This view seemed to be consistent across the political spectrum, so I had to conclude it's a cultural thing. In the UK we are far more likely to go on a protest, write to our MP, campaign or even throw a riot to make our voices heard.
I think there is another factor at play too - the UK/European tendency to collectivism means that 'something is done' easier vs the US focus on individualism, where it is harder to get consensus for paradigm-shifts in thinking.
I well recall Hungerford and the fact that 'something was done' almost immediately without long-winded political process. Apart from a minority of gun lovers, the majority of the public supported harsher firearms law because they viewed the gunning down of people going about their everyday activities as something totally alien to UK culture.
There have been a couple of copycat incidents since then and consequentially gun law was further tightened. Also I feel there has been a change in media reporting since the last incident to try and airbrush it from public consciousness so as to avoid lending inspiration to latent nutters.
It's very hard to see what the US can do about guns, or how anyone living in the UK can offer any kind of solution. Short of de-frocking the NRA and having a massive pubic campaign to de-sex firearms, (as was done with tobacco), ISTM death by gunshot in America will continue to be regarded as "just one of those things".
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
But from would-be leaders, mind-boggling idiocy.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And then this happens. If you can't access the link, Sharonda Singleton's son says
quote:
We already forgive him for what he's done, and there's nothing but love from our side of the family.
Radiant faith.
And
This. Extraordinary. What a witness to Christ's love.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
... As to the above--that's another thing that bothered me about bib's post-- it kind of hinted that the NRA and people like Roof are definitive Americans while the victims somehow are not. Which idea is both insulting to the victims, and reinforces the idea that brown folk are lesser citizens than white Americans. ...
Kelly, I may be wrong. I can't interpret someone else's intentions for them. But I think that's very unlikely and almost certainly unfair to bib. What he/she actually said was,
quote:
The purpose of a gun is to kill, so why am I not surprised that massacres happen when people are allowed to own guns. If people demand the right to bear arms, then I'm afraid they must live (and die) with the consequences.
To any non-US person, who doesn't live in a gun-totting culture, that statement isn't a political statement or a verdict on ethnicity - who is a true American. If you allow/encourage people to be armed, some of them will get shot. Usually they will be the wrong people.
fwiw, as an American, I heard bib's post as the sort of gritty, heartbreaking gallows realism that we commonly use here in the US. Bib is correct-- incidents like this are the logical, expected result of having a heavily armed culture with such easy access to guns. I assume/hope that bib realizes that doesn't reflect all Americans, and I further assume s/he does not support or approve of the way the impact of these realities unfairly falls upon the African American community.
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Does the NRA have investments in arms manufacturers?
Actually, the reverse is true. Gun manufacturers have a huge investment in the NRA.
While the NRA began as a voluntary association for hunters and other gun-users, with a focus on education re gun safety, today member dues/fees comprise less than half their funding-- the bulk is given by the gun manufacturers. Which is why the NRA has for some time taken to behaving not as a lobby for gun owners (many of whom would share the same concerns discussed here) and rather for a long long time have acted as lobbyists for the gun manufacturers themselves. This is so true that today "NRA" and "gun lobby" have become virtually synonymous. Many NRA members (including, famously, George Bush the elder) have resigned their membership, but with little effect since membership is now such an insignificant aspect of their raison d'etre.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is the gun manufacturers, using the NRA as their sock puppet, which has been saying for the past 6-7 years that Obama plans to come and take away ALL YOUR GUNS!!!! And the ammo.
This has led all the less-intelligent ammosexuals among us (a great neologism, don't you think?) to go and buy millions of dollars worth of guns and ammo, and hoard them against that day when they have to fight Barack Obama's shock troops. (Put the phrase 'Jade Helm' into your search engine if you want to read much, much more about this mass delusion.)
You have probably noticed that this day has not yet dawned, and probably never will. But the gun manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Historically, the demand for what became the 2nd Amendment in the Constitution was from the Southern states that wanted to a) preserve their armed slave patrols, but b) ensure that they would not be called out of the state, leaving the population defenseless against the people they enslaved. The purpose of the "well-regulated militia" was to prevent slave revolts, long before the modern interpretation of an individual right to bear arms. It was a racist piece of law from the very beginning and it's no wonder white supremacists love it.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That sounds horribly real Big Sis, do you have references?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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