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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: God does not go where he is not wanted
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Cameron PM
Shipmate
# 18142
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Posted
How true is that? A wayfaring priest said that to me a while ago, that somehow a God that is everywhere does not go where he is not wanted.
Is this true, or am I just being duped?
[ 14. August 2015, 01:40: Message edited by: Cameron PM ]
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Your call.
Posts: 59 | From: Talamh an Eisc | Registered: Jun 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Depends on what he meant. If he was speaking literally, it's nonsense, as there is nowhere God is not, even in hell. If he was speaking metaphorically ("God respects the free will of people and does not force himself upon those who reject him"), well, that's mostly true (there are a few exceptions, and then there's Judgment Day....
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
"Going" involves not being somewhere then being there at some later point in time. God is not in time nor in space. God doesn't "go" anywhere because God does not have a location (or locations) in the space-time continuum.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I should add that I have heard this kind of language used to attack public schools for not having school-led prayer, or not teaching certain religious dogmas as part of the curriculum, or being accepting of LGBT people, and so forth. The implication being that the schools have "kicked out" God and God will now turn them over to their just punishment by abandoning them.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
How true is that? A wayfaring priest said that to me a while ago, that somehow a God that is everywhere does not go where he is not wanted.
Is this true, or am I just being duped?
May I ask why you believe there is a God there in the first place? (This is a genuine question, not a put-down or anything.)
When I was a child, I understood from my parents' belief that of course God wasn't watching everyone all the time, but was there to help those who help themselves. Continuing on through life and finding that it didn't do that either, my belief evaporated!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I on longer believe in God as a person (or three persons as some say) although the words are often useful as metaphors/descriptions as we think in 'people' language.
I think God is in and through absolutely everything, there isn't anywhere that God isn't. God is that which holds the whole caboodle together.
Not wanting, not recognising God isn't going to change that.
Myself, I am tired of God and want nothing to do with him/her/it, but that won't change the way things are either.
(Not true, of course, as I keep coming back to talk about him/her/it!)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I on longer believe in God as a person (or three persons as some say) although the words are often useful as metaphors/descriptions as we think in 'people' language.
I think God is in and through absolutely everything, there isn't anywhere that God isn't. God is that which holds the whole caboodle together.
Not wanting, not recognising God isn't going to change that.
Myself, I am tired of God and want nothing to do with him/her/it, but that won't change the way things are either.
(Not true, of course, as I keep coming back to talk about him/her/it!)
That sounds very similar to my position. Not an atheist. Have a very strong sense that there is something more than what we see and that this matters hugely but very jaded by the ridiculousness that is humans trying to cram the divine into 'thou shalts' and 'thou shalt nots'.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
The God of Ps 139 is much how I,ve experienced it, give or take a couple of verses.
Still more of an atheist than a religious nutter I, like posters above, find it almost impossible to completely dissociate with God dispite all the 'ridiculousness'.
I don't claim to speak for anyone else or anything else, yet personally would say God does withhold His/ Her gifts if I wilfully ignore, or turn away from Him/Her.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I understood from my parents' belief that of course God wasn't watching everyone all the time, but was there to help those who help themselves. Continuing on through life and finding that it didn't do that either, my belief evaporated!
You don't believe in God because your parents didn't understand Him? Seems a bit of a shame.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
My experience is that God is everywhere. Whether or not you experience God in locations is up to you.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I no longer believe in God as a person (or three persons as some say) although the words are often useful as metaphors/descriptions as we think in 'people' language.
Nice post - very sensible, in my opinion, especially as the world runs as it does within our solar system, the galaxy and the universe, whether humans believe a god is involved or not. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) quote:
I think God is in and through absolutely everything, there isn't anywhere that God isn't. God is that which holds the whole caboodle together.
Whatever it was that caused the start of the universe, then calling it by a name like God, or a singularity, doesn’t alter that cause; and of course that is still something which has to remain under the heading ‘we don’t know enough yet to be able to say with certainty’. quote:
Not wanting, not recognising God isn't going to change that.
And adding in God adds an unnecessary layer of complexity. quote:
Myself, I am tired of God and want nothing to do with him/her/it, but that won't change the way things are either.
Agree. I was tired of him/her/it long ago, recognising its total lack of ability to do anything. I hope that my small contributions to, e.g., the BHA will help in some small way to tip the balance so that belief in it becomes a minority view. quote:
(Not true, of course, as I keep coming back to talk about him/her/it!)
It is certainly an interesting subject , is an integral part of history, knowledge of which enables each generation to learn more about how humans behave.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
That sounds very similar to my position. Not an atheist. Have a very strong sense that there is something more than what we see …
Do you think this is because of your childhood and the prevailing way of things at the time. It was for me. quote:
…and that this matters hugely but very jaded by the ridiculousness that is humans trying to cram the divine into 'thou shalts' and 'thou shalt nots'.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
My experience is that God is everywhere. Whether or not you experience God in locations is up to you.
Pretty much my view. If you won't talk to God, or listen for God, he might as well not be there.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I understood from my parents' belief that of course God wasn't watching everyone all the time, but was there to help those who help themselves. Continuing on through life and finding that it didn't do that either, my belief evaporated!
You don't believe in God because your parents didn't understand Him? Seems a bit of a shame.
On the contrary, my parents retained their belief in God and my father in particular was convinced he had a hot line to god!My lack of belief was entirely my own idea as a result of education, life's experiences and, even more in later years, the increasing wealth of scientific facts
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
My experience is that God is everywhere. Whether or not you experience God in locations is up to you.
Pretty much my view. If you won't talk to God, or listen for God, he might as well not be there.
I wonder - can you pinpoint what it is that defines the difference you believe is made by God?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
O dear - I find myself empathising with other posters on this thread. Despite being a paid-up member of the C of E (and a BSM* to boot), I find it very hard indeed to believe in the tiny, grumpy, and vengeful god (note the lower-case g) peddled by my fellow-believers.
If god exists (and I truly believe he/she/it does), then he/she/it is everywhere (however large or infinite that might be).
I hope I'm not breaking any copyright if I quote from that very wise and sensible member of the C of E, Richard Hooker (1554-1600):
'....our soundest knowledge is to know that we know [God] not indeed as he is, neither can know him.....his glory is inexplicable, his greatness above our capacity and reach. He is above, and we upon earth; therefore it behoveth our words to be wary and few.'
O how I wish 'Christian' ministers and preachers would heed those words......
(*BSM - C of E Lay Reader aka Blue-Scarfed Menace, or A Thorn In The Vicar's Side).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I wonder - can you pinpoint what it is that defines the difference you believe is made by God?
I know you didn't ask me. But for me the answer is that at the bottom of everything is God. So I don't feel alone even when I am alone, even after death there is God and God is Good.
I know this could well be wishful thinking, but I haven't shaken it off yet.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Luke says that Simon Peter's first words to Jesus were "Depart from me". Jesus didn't.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I want Him. He's here. I'm still alone, weak, ignorant. Like everyone else. That's OK.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I wonder - can you pinpoint what it is that defines the difference you believe is made by God?
I know you didn't ask me. But for me the answer is that at the bottom of everything is God. So I don't feel alone even when I am alone, even after death there is God and God is Good.
I know this could well be wishful thinking, but I haven't shaken it off yet.
Thank you - I always like reading what you write.
I can't think of anything to add just at the moment.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I wonder - can you pinpoint what it is that defines the difference you believe is made by God?
From a practical standpoint, the difference that God being there makes is that it reminds me that I am not God and I am not in charge. That relieves me of the need to judge events and people, including myself. It also reminds me that I am only in charge of doing the best I can and that the outcome is not up to me. Frankly, that I do not need to attach to the outcome, or how people feel about me.
From a very personal viewpoint; having had the experience of God being there at a time when I thought I had sunk as low as a human could get let me know that I am still loved even as I am imperfect and have a less than perfect history.
Knowing God loves me as an imperfect person leads me back again to knowing that I need not judge any other person. As in the Lord's Prayer, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
You need not have my experience.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
wayfaring priest
Tangential, but what do you mean by a wayfaring priest? It sounds like one of those Medieval rogues who seduce widows and steal all the sausages.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There's a notion that God withdrew in order to make space for his creation.
Isn't that from Plotinus?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There's a notion that God withdrew in order to make space for his creation.
Isn't that from Plotinus?
I thought it was from one or more of the mystics and I had to look up Plotinus because I don't think I've come across him before - his ideas strike me as heretical exscept insofar as there elements of (Eastern) Orthodoxy that have adapted some of his ideas.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Simone Weil was a big fan of the idea.
I thought Plotinus was more of an "overflowing" kind of guy, but I'd be happy to be disabused....
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Wow, so much that I can't empathise with here (and certainly feel rather uncomfortable with people who identify as Christians saying it).
I see God hovering over the waters of people* all the time, whether they have invited God in or not. To me it's very sad that people either choose to ignore God's presence (either around them, the presence of the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, or the presence of the Person of Christ in the Bible and being alive today) or cannot sense it. God's immanence is a huge part of how I see and otherwise sense God.
*the waters in the Bible symbolising chaos, so God hovering over people in their chaos
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There's a notion that God withdrew in order to make space for his creation.
Isn't that from Plotinus?
I thought it was from one or more of the mystics and I had to look up Plotinus because I don't think I've come across him before - his ideas strike me as heretical exscept insofar as there elements of (Eastern) Orthodoxy that have adapted some of his ideas.
It's an idea in Kabbalism.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'm almost sure, at any rate, that the "God withdrawing himself" thing is in the Kabbala.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
It is - Lurianic kabbalism. It's not intended to be interpreted literally.
(ETA - the doctrine is called tzimtzum, or similar)
[ 14. August 2015, 22:19: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
It is - Lurianic kabbalism. It's not intended to be interpreted literally.
But of course. It can't be taken literally because God is not physically extended, that he might contract.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There's a notion that God withdrew in order to make space for his creation.
Isn't that from Plotinus?
I thought it was from one or more of the mystics and I had to look up Plotinus because I don't think I've come across him before - his ideas strike me as heretical exscept insofar as there elements of (Eastern) Orthodoxy that have adapted some of his ideas.
Strictly speaking, he can't be heretical, because he wasn’t a Christian. He was a Platonist. He was however, a big influence on Christian mystical and theological thought.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Well, neo-Platonist. His ideas also turn up in Jewish mysticism.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well, neo-Platonist. His ideas also turn up in Jewish mysticism.
We call him a neo-Platonist, but that's an anachronism. He probably wouldn't have seen himself in those terms.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I wonder - can you pinpoint what it is that defines the difference you believe is made by God?
From a practical standpoint, the difference that God being there makes is that it reminds me that I am not God and I am not in charge. That relieves me of the need to judge events and people, including myself. It also reminds me that I am only in charge of doing the best I can and that the outcome is not up to me. Frankly, that I do not need to attach to the outcome, or how people feel about me.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. That sounds like an eminently sensible and useful philosophy! Have you ever considered taking it a step further and giving yourself, being the person with the evolved brain who has, in fact, done all the thinking required, the credit for the conclusions you have come to and the decisions you have made? quote:
From a very personal viewpoint; having had the experience of God being there at a time when I thought I had sunk as low as a human could get let me know that I am still loved even as I am imperfect and have a less than perfect history.
I can well understand that. When I was young and had to get myself through and out of a very difficult situation, I already knew that, although I believed in a God, it wasn’t going to actually do anything to help! I was not alone, though, but had two children who needed my care. quote:
Knowing God loves me as an imperfect person leads me back again to knowing that I need not judge any other person. As in the Lord's Prayer, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
You need not have my experience.
It sounds as if you have gained courage and strength by all that you have learnt from your difficult experiences. Age and maturity certainly help to refine our opinions!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
It is - Lurianic kabbalism. It's not intended to be interpreted literally.
(ETA - the doctrine is called tzimtzum, or similar)
I always wonder if Simone Weil got her ideas about God's withdrawal from Kabbalah, as they are rather similar, and she was Jewish.
But she has the nice idea of a double kind of withdrawal or negation. Thus, God withdraws, to permit creation to take place, but then if I withdraw (or negate myself), God is found again.
This is curiously like some Eastern ideas, e.g. 'neither I nor the world exist' (Zen), which don't take you to God, since they don't do that, but to a kind of pleroma, I suppose, which is as near as dammit.
Tzimtzum is fascinating, but Google covers it OK. One of the interesting aspects of it is that the divine withdrawal leads to a 'conceptual space', which is intelligible, and thus helpful to humans and other intelligent life, e.g. ants. Again, this is curiously like some Buddhist ideas, but then, I guess that the 'perennial philosophy' pops up all over the place.
I forgot to say that these ideas have been used to counter the notion of divine hiddenness, since God's withdrawal appears to conceal God, although this is a kind of illusion. I am the one who is hidden!
[ 15. August 2015, 09:12: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I’m right up there with Boogie and Macrina, and nine tenths of the time with Susan. Not a Theist by any manner of means, but not an Atheist because of the Something Else, some thing other than the physical creation. It’s been called God and given all sorts of attributes, most of which I can’t accept, but the I find life of Jesus illuminating. And as God, it’s worshipped with prescribed words and rituals, some beautiful, many irrelevant from my point of view.
Belonging to a ‘religious organisation’, according to a report in this morning’s paper, is the only social activity associated with sustained happiness, ahead of volunteering/charity work, taking educational courses, or participating in a political or community organisation.
‘It’s not clear to us,’ says the report,‘how much this is about religion per se, or whether it may be about the sense of belonging and not being socially isolated.’ There is something in this, but some posts on SoF make it sound as though churches are not all happy places, and I suspect that Susan Doris is happier than many of their members.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Certainly not all churches are happy places, GG, but the ship is deliberately a place where we malcontents can sound off. We are not typical, be we theists, atheists or whatever.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
I’m right up there with Boogie and Macrina, and nine tenths of the time with Susan. Not a Theist by any manner of means, but not an Atheist because of the Something Else, some thing other than the physical creation. It’s been called God and given all sorts of attributes, most of which I can’t accept, but the I find life of Jesus illuminating. And as God, it’s worshipped with prescribed words and rituals, some beautiful, many irrelevant from my point of view.
I wonder - do you think you could estimate how much space that 'something else' to which you refer takes in your brain? I retained a similar vestigial spot for many years before I realised it was using up a microscopic area that I could fill more usefully!
quote:
There is something in this, but some posts on SoF make it sound as though churches are not all happy places, and I suspect that Susan Doris is happier than many of their members.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I reckon it's genetic make-up and I was lucky with my set of genes!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Yes but SusanDoris - why does everything have to be useful?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Cameron PM
Shipmate
# 18142
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Posted
I'm thinking that reducing God to a mere "being" is the cause what I was told. He is far more than that.
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Your call.
Posts: 59 | From: Talamh an Eisc | Registered: Jun 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Yes but SusanDoris - why does everything have to be useful?
Many beautiful things are of no use whatever. But they're still beautiful.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I raise my glass to uselessness.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Yes mousethief and LeRoc, that's what I was getting at. Uselessness is something to be embraced.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Cameron PM
Shipmate
# 18142
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Posted
Thereby making it useful.
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Your call.
Posts: 59 | From: Talamh an Eisc | Registered: Jun 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
Thereby making it useful.
Word games.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
When I was a child, I understood from my parents' belief that of course God wasn't watching everyone all the time, but was there to help those who help themselves. Continuing on through life and finding that it didn't do that either, my belief evaporated!
There is nothing at all Christian about the notion that 'God helps those who help themselves'. It's a facile platitude redolent of folk religion which you won't find in the Bible. For one thing, it suggests that God is only interested in strong, capable folk who can sort their lives out!
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It's also rather silly to think God is "there" for the purpose of tending us. Rather like Santa Claus, as if he had no life of his own!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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