Ship of Fools: Then and now: Changes in Catholic Teachings

Thread: Then and now: Changes in Catholic Teachings Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Aristotle's Child (# 18498) on :

Hello! I’m new to this form and even needed the moderator’s help (thank you!) to sign on.

I’m a pre-Vatican II Catholic and hence was born in B.C. (Before Computers)!

Nonetheless, I’ve kept up with all the changes in the Catholic Church. At least I think that I have.

Perhaps I can run a few of these changes by readers to see if I have my facts straight. Please correct me if I am wrong (but please document your answers)!

Among the changes I’ve lived through is how we regard the inspiration of scripture.
The good Sisters in my Catholic elementary school taught me the traditional teaching of the inspiration. The central papal document was Pope Leo XIII’ Encyclical Providentissimus deus. 1893.
“For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church, solemnly defined in the Councils of Florence and of Trent, and finally confirmed and more expressly formulated by the Council of the Vatican…………."

"Hence, because the Holy Ghost employed men as His instruments, we cannot therefore say that it was these inspired instruments who, perchance, have fallen into error, and not the primary author. For, by supernatural power, He so moved and impelled them to write-He was so present to them-that the things which He ordered, and those only, they, first, rightly understood, then willed faithfully to write down, and finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth. Otherwise, it could not be said that He was the Author of the entire Scripture.

Did Vatican II change this Vatican I teaching?

Posted by The Seminarian (# 18502) on :

Dear Aristotle,

No. The Church's teaching has not changed, but in the pre-conciliar Church, the issue is viewed with a different lens.

In 2005, the CBCEW produced a rather interesting document called <i>The Gift of Scripture</i> which can be found here: http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Resources/Scripture/GoS.pdf

Point No 14 says:
“We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters. We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision”

Point No 19 warns against a fundamentalistic approach to reading the scriptures:
"The fundamentalist approach disregards the diversity of views and the development of understanding which is found in the Bible and does not allow for the presence of ‘imperfect and time-conditioned elements’ within Scripture"
Continuing on to describe it as a "kind of intellectual suicide".

The pre-conciliar Church does not challenge the understanding of the inspiration of scripture, but sets about a new understanding of the spirit behind the text, or the event to which the text bears witness.

So how can we reconcile inerrancy of scripture as described in the pre-conciliar Church to the post-conciliar understanding of scripture.

One way would be to adopt a charismatic element of reading scripture for if scriptural inerrancy means "the bible cannot be wrong" then we have fundamentalism and the words are akin to the dry bones in Ezekiel.

But if inerrancy means that we are urged to use the bible in an "inspired" way, that is drawing from it what the Spirit has to say to the Church, then the dry bones take on flesh and breath with life. The Word becomes Flesh!

This relationship between the Holy Spirit and the Word is mirrored in the celebration of the Eucharist: The scriptures: words and stories to nourish the mind and activate the imagination.
Bread and Wine: without the Holy Spirit are devoid of the presence of God, but are merely food stuffs.
When the presence of God is united with the Holy Spirit, they take on transformative properties: the people of God enter into a cooperative relationship (or synergy) with the divine.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Hi Aristotle's Child,

Welcome to the Ship! We have a few topics that come up so often we have their own forum for them. Biblical inerrancy is one of them, so I'm sending this down there to Dead Horses. (The title is a joke; they're no more dead and unwelcome than they are horses.)

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

Isn't it rather a stretch to maintain that the church's teaching has never changed regarding usury? Lending money at any interest rate at all used to be a big no-no. Church authorities fulminated against it. Now we all do it without a second thought as to the ethics. Although we have a vague sense that excessively high rates are immoral, the very definition of usury has become extraordinarily slippery.

I understand (from the explanation of a fine Roman Catholic apologist Shipmate) that the church's teaching regarding usury has not changed because it would be as sinful as ever to loan gold or other precious metals. Big deal.

Posted by Aristotle's Child (# 18498) on :

Alogon posted:

>>Isn't it rather a stretch to maintain that the church's teaching has never changed regarding usury? Lending money at any interest rate at all used to be a big no-no. Church authorities fulminated against it. Now we all do it without a second thought as to the ethics. Although we have a vague sense that excessively high rates are immoral, the very definition of usury has become extraordinarily slippery.<<

RESPONSE:

Vix Pervenit, Benedict XIV, 1745

2.…The law governing loans consists necessarily in the equality of what is given and returned; once the equality has been established, whoever demands more than that violates the terms of the loan. Therefore if one receives interest, he must make restitution according to the commutative bond of justice; its function in human contracts is to assure equality for each one. This law is to be observed in a holy manner. If not observed exactly, reparation must be made.

3…By these remarks, however, We do not deny that at times together with the loan contract certain other titles - which are not at all intrinsic to the contract - may run parallel with it…

SUMMARY: By calling interest “certain other titles” one can avoid the sin and the need to make reparation.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Welcome, Aristotle's Child. Help yourself to some baklava. [Smile]

Interesting re the posts on usury. AIUI, Muslim banks have traditionally gotten around that by charging fees, but not interest.

Posted by Aristotle's Child (# 18498) on :

Seminarian posted that:

>>In 2005, the CBCEW produced a rather interesting document called The Gift of Scripture

>> Point No 14 says:

>>“We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters. We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision”

RESPONSE

That writing would seem to reflect some local views at best but hardly could be considered a magisterial teaching.

On the other hand we have Providentissimus deus which is claimed by some to be an infallible papal ex cathedra teaching since it contains the elements of infallibility listed by Vatican I and the traditional view of the Church (ordinary universal infallibility)

Providentissimus deus “…and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church, solemnly defined in the Councils of Florence and of Trent, and finally confirmed and more expressly formulated by the Council of the Vatican. (Pope Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus, n. 20).

Providentissimus deus (D)
20. The principles here laid down will apply cognate sciences, and especially to History.

>>The pre-conciliar Church does not challenge the understanding of the inspiration of scripture, but sets about a new understanding of the spirit behind the text, or the event to which the text bears witness.<<

RESPONSE:

“Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

What Vatican did was establish some “wiggle room” regarding the teaching on the absolute inerrancy of scripture. Now if error is demonstrated it only means that particular section of scripture is not necessary for the sake of our salvation.

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

Hosting
Hi Aristotle's Child,
Please don't combine different subjects on the same thread. If a host asks you to take a subject to Dead Horses and that specific subject does not already have a dedicated thread, then you need to go to the new topic button and start a new thread.

You also might want to learn how to quote other people's posts to help avoid confusion. We have a UBB practice thread in the Styx where you can get the hang of these things.

I have started a new thread for your current topic here and have made copies of the posts that were previously here and shifted them to it.

Thanks,
Louise
Dead Horses Host

Hosting off

Posted by Aristotle's Child (# 18498) on :

Thank you, Louise. I need all the help I can get. I looked over what you captioned as USB practice thread. At first, I thought that it was written in koine Greek. However, on closer inspection of this lengthy message, I see that it isn’t but is quite different than anything I’ve encountered in computer instructions.

As Autenrieth Road posted : “ I give up:…”

But I haven’t. It will even be fun to try out the various instructions!

So, I’ll work my way though it a little at a time. If I run into something I just can’t get by, can I post you to ask a question?

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

hosting

Hi Aristotle's child,
I'm finding feedback from other hosts that you're causing problems for them too. You need to go directly to the UBB thread and learn to quote there - the Styx hosts are aware you may be posting there. They will help with that. I suggest you direct any questions to them. I also suggest you cut back your posting until you've mastered this basic skill as it's causing problems and you also don't seem to understand when you should or should not start a new thread. I'm also closing this thread while I consult more widely.

Louise

Dead Horses Host

PS. You should also take any queries about these hosting decisions to the Styx and start a new thread there if you want to ask anything.

hosting off

[ 13. November 2015, 22:07: Message edited by: Louise ]

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