Ship of Fools: Anniversary of 911

Thread: Anniversary of 911 Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :

As this is coming up it may be important to remember what an awful shock it was to wake up on that morning and to respect the sadness and loss of it but my motive in starting this is to enquire among knowledgeable ship mates on the credibility or otherwise of the conspiracy theories regarding what happened.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Octopus

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Eh? Who let the Red Wings fan in here?

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

I have read a bit on the theories and have acquaintances among those who are well-informed. I do not accord the theories any notice.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I have read a bit on the theories and have acquaintances among those who are well-informed. I do not accord the theories any notice.

Ah, but that is irreverent. As are any facts or science. The beauty of conspiracy theories is they cannot be disproved.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

The conspiracy theory that had the most impact, by far, was the one that said Saddam Hussein was involved. Which was bought hook, line and sinker by the US and other governments to justify an invasion of Iraq - and it's possible that it was a conspiracy theory initiated by members of the US administration.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Octopus

That post is about as clear and explanatory as the Truther YouTube channel it's referring to.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Most of the conspiracies seem to revolve back around to "it was the Jews what did it" or "it was the Jews what financed it" etc etc etc. On that basis alone, it seems to me, these can be discounted as cracked veiled anti-Semitism.

Some weird shit went on that day, but none of the conspiracies seem weirder than a bunch of young men hijacking aeroplanes and flying them into buildings.

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Some weird shit went on that day, but none of the conspiracies seem weirder than a bunch of young men hijacking aeroplanes and flying them into buildings.

Bingo.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

There's a special compartment in the human brain which pops up a *like* on conspiracies.
Theories become more and more elaborate until point ridiculous is reached.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I think this just goes to show that when a) you have limited information b) you have government/official sources you don't trust and c) you have very unusual events with results that are hard to replicate,

it is fairly easy to create an alternative narrative which is complex and hard to shoot down with logic.

I think this has all kinds of implications in life. For example, it just goes to show how hard it is to get to the truth of almost any event in history to the extent that some historians openly talk about their role to be weavers of compelling narratives rather than discoverers (guardians?) of the truth.

Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :

All the evidence is there - on the internet...

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
rolyn: There's a special compartment in the human brain which pops up a *like* on conspiracies.

I suspect that it goes through reinforcement of our self-esteem. "Other people may think it went like X, but I know that it really went like Y." This makes you feel special: you know more than other people. I'm guessing there are some endorphins that strengthen this. I also think that this is why it's so difficult for people to let go of their theories, even when they're confronted with evidence through Snopes or otherwise.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

It's the Lizards wot done it.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

I once read about a man who had his arm bitten off by a pterodactyl. He's got the stump to prove it.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Octopus
That post is about as clear and explanatory as the Truther YouTube channel it's referring to.

I wasn't trying to explain anything. Explaining is a good way to get oneself disappeared. Don't think for a second the Octopus doesn't have tentacles in France. You should probably wear a tinfoil hat while reading this thread.

I'm going outside to look for black helicopters.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It's the Lizards wot done it.

Yes all of the Illuminatti families (Rockefeller, Morgans, Kennedys, Kardashians, Bushs, Bundys etc..) are shape shifting lizards.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

We know why. We know what. We know when. The who is uninteresting except when it is us.

Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :

This thread was motivated by a workmate who had a concern regarding this issue. It was not a particular interest of mine as a New Zealander but I did watch this. Comment

[ 07. September 2015, 01:49: Message edited by: Jamat ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

"I've got a friend who has a conspiracy theory?"... Well he's wrong.
I'm glad you weren't taken in by the stupid conspiracy theory in that video like your friend Do note that the "growing number of Americans rethinking what happened on 9/11" seems to have shrunk, despite the claims of the this advertising campaign.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
the conspiracy theories regarding what happened.

A lot of people died, is what happened.

I suspect conspiracy theories are about why it happened. Which frankly are pretty irrelevant this far after the event, given what happened afterward.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

The simple answer to the so-called 'secret' about Building 7 is that the opinions of architects and engineers were that the twin towers wouldn't collapse either - but they did.

As an engineer friend said to me it all came as a big shock because no one had thought about a large aeroplane being flown into one of the towers, nor had anyone given any thought to a fire caused by a vast amount of aviation fuel. All the tests done on the structure of the buildings was to ensure they could cope with weight, wind, slight land movement, flooding: nothing at all was done about collision. Similarly, the work done on resistance to fire was done at the time of construction and wasn't re-done after earlier fires had caused question marks about the sprinkler systems resulting in the steel frame of the buildings being coated with fire-proofing material; this material is only fireproof to a certain temperature, after which it combusts.

The reason the fires caused the collapse of Building 7 was that the sprinkler system didn't work because the water mains into the building had been ruptured by the collapse of the twin towers. And all of the modelling about the effect of fire on the buildings had presumed that 'a fire' would involve one or maybe two floors: trouble was that on 9/11 the fires engulfing Building 7 were on many more floors.

The last thing is to consider where the money comes from to fund the type of slick operation that is mounted by some of the conspiracy theory websites and then to look at who they're pointing the finger: I suggest that with the suggestion that 'the Jews' were involved and 'the government' the source of funds may not be a million miles away from some gulf states or Iran.

[ 07. September 2015, 11:18: Message edited by: L'organist ]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
the conspiracy theories regarding what happened.
A lot of people died, is what happened.

I suspect conspiracy theories are about why it happened. Which frankly are pretty irrelevant this far after the event, given what happened afterward.

Yes, re why. I'm not a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, though I've looked at some of it. (Partly because our mayor evidently got some sort of warning not to fly. I just looked it up, and the account is still substantially the same. The only question seems to be who warned him.)

I think things are pretty much in line with the main narrative: Al Qaeda guys flying planes into buildings. Dubya using that as an excuse to go after Sadaam Hussein. And the various intelligence agencies failing to protect us, due to inter-agency rivalries. Plus Condi Rice saying yes, she had gotten some sort of warning; but, since it wasn't specific, she didn't pay it much attention.

As to "irrelevant": I don't think so. The gov't evidently screwed up re sharing the intelligence they did have. (E.g., FBI and CIA not talking to each other.) That's been mainstream news. The US gov't has done all sorts of bad, stupid, and illegal things, throughout its history, which (unfortunately) makes some of the wilder theories a little more plausible. There was, at least, a conspiracy of stupidity and arrogance--not that the gov't planned anything, but they didn't use, share, or take seriously the info they had.

The gov't's fumbling of Hurricane Katrina was so horrendous that it has survivors wondering if the protective levees were blown on purpose. (I watched something about this, recently. The host said that, given mistreating and abandoning people during/after the storm, given all the efforts to keep people from returning to the Lower 9th Ward, efforts to grab the land and gentrify, efforts to keep residents and returnees from getting the help they needed, you can sure see why they'd think that.)

The gov't has screwed up a lot, we've had our sense of safety ripped away, people died, our culture and daily life have changed, and we still seem to be in danger.

Plus we're still rehashing the Lincoln assassination, and who shot first at Lexington and Concord. (The start of our Revolutionary War.)

So no, "why" is not irrelevant.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
The gov't's fumbling of Hurricane Katrina was so horrendous that it has survivors wondering if the protective levees were blown on purpose. (I watched something about this, recently. The host said that, given mistreating and abandoning people during/after the storm, given all the efforts to keep people from returning to the Lower 9th Ward, efforts to grab the land and gentrify, efforts to keep residents and returnees from getting the help they needed, you can sure see why they'd think that.)

Well, that plus the fact that the levees were blown up on purpose during the 1927 flood. People remember stuff like that.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

The levees were blown in 1927 so that water could run out to sea, not to let the sea in.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

The reason we have conspiracy theories is because powers that be have agendas. Sometimes those agendas are put into action, many times they stay hidden and are not activated.

So now and again when you get incidents like 9/11 or the assassination of the Arch Duke Ferdinand, which are exploited and used as an excuse to activate hidden agendas, some folk will always look back at history and go -- OMG look at that humongous conspiracy! It's as plain as the nose on your face don't you know.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Re 1927 flood:

I just skimmed the article to which Croesos linked. Yes, blowing the levees was officially to drain the water. But if you read through, it was bankers who decided to do it. (See "Attempts At Relief".) And the aftermath sounds very much like that of Katrina.

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

Part of the reason why conspiracy theories exist is, as has been said, because sometimes governments, big business and other powerful interest groups have their own, hidden agenda.

The other side of the coin is that sometimes people believe conspiracy theories either because they want to (they want to be anti-semitic) or because of the human desire for 'controlled fear'. Although they are now out of fashion, there are many 'fairy stories' involving just this controlled fear. Experiencing fear, and believing that one has some control over 'scary things' by knowing about them, helps people to deal with the unknown.

Knowing that there are trolls that live under bridges helps people deal with other possible dangers, especially if they know that there are also big billy goats gruff who can deal with the trolls. Knowing that there is a 'bogie man' out there, or witches living in the woods, helps children feel secure if they stay indoors in bed, or don't go wandering into the woods on their own. These sorts of stories aren't as widely told any more, but in part they have been transformed into horror movies, particularly popular among teens to young adults, who are starting to have to cope with that big thing called life.

We have a big, scary world where little seems to be under any control. But, hey, I know the secret; I know that it was secretly the Jews, the CIA, the lizard people or whoever that was behind it. And knowing this secret gives me a sense of control over it.

In an odd way, it makes a kind of sense to believe a crazy-as-a-box-of-frogs conspiracy theory. The problems come when people start acting on them. They really would be better off reading Three Little Pigs.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

I do sometimes think our modern day attempts to rationalise everything, and as you say do away with fairy-tales, is in fact creating a new kind of fear and yes, a rather worrying inability to deal with it.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re 1927 flood:

I just skimmed the article to which Croesos linked. Yes, blowing the levees was officially to drain the water. But if you read through, it was bankers who decided to do it. (See "Attempts At Relief".) And the aftermath sounds very much like that of Katrina.

Bankers at the behest of Jesuits

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

And both of them part of the international and internationalist Jewish conspiracy, supported by the godless rulers in the Kremlin, intent on breaking down the constitutional rights of free-born citizens.

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