Ship of Fools: Pig Gate

Thread: Pig Gate Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Who's side are you on on this one?

http://metro.co.uk/2015/09/21/heres-how-politicians-reacted-to-david-camerons-piggate-5400688/

Cameron's (it's a lie), Ashworth (time to tell, look what a posh wierdo David really is), the pig (ouch!)?

Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

I don't care what he did to the pig all those years years ago. What matters is what he's doing to our society here and now. A metaphor involving having sex with it would be apt.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
I don't care what he did to the pig all those years years ago. What matters is what he's doing to our society here and now. A metaphor involving having sex with it would be apt.

Exactly my thoughts.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I find it deeply depressing. We all do stupid things when young, and groups of young men fuelled by alcohol are hardly going to behave like saints, but it could hardly have been a more vindictive and better timed piece of nastiness, if true (an old friend of his was on the radio last night saying it was the first he'd ever heard of it). It ensured that amongst most people the prime minister is now a laughing stock, except in the Middle East/Israel, where he'll be regarded with disgust as being beyond the pale.

Sadly if it is true, I think the only thing he could do now is to step down because I can't see anyone taking him seriously after this. Which would be a shame because I think he's the right person for the job in other ways.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Apparently the usual defamation laws do not apply to information written in books based on from whispers by third parties, serialised in the Daily frigging Mail and repeated across the internet - providing it is about the Prime Minister.

Nobody knows the truth about these stories, so I think we'd all do well to keep our speculations to ourselves.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I don't know what's worse, whopping one's willy into a piece of dead pork or committing the unforgivable grammatical sin - it's 'whose' not 'who's' ...

[Razz]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

Sadly if it is true, I think the only thing he could do now is to step down because I can't see anyone taking him seriously after this. Which would be a shame because I think he's the right person for the job in other ways.

Really?

I think it will all simply blow over, either completely ignored if not true dismissed as 'youthful japes' if true.

Plenty of fodder for comedy writers 'tho!

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

I think this matter probably tells us a lot more about Lord Ashcroft* than it does about David Cameron, but he's probably laughing all the way to the bank.

And also Jeremy Corbyn, who apparently 'favorited' a Tweet referring to both this and Diane Abbott. Nice.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Well, Corbyn seems to have managed to keep out of the personal attacks style of politics so far, it was only a matter of time before he was going to lapse and show that he was as human as the rest of us ...

[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I think this matter probably tells us a lot more about Lord Ashcroft* than it does about David Cameron, but he's probably laughing all the way to the bank.

And also Jeremy Corbyn, who apparently 'favorited' a Tweet referring to both this and Diane Abbott. Nice.

We believe he personally controls his twitter account at all times do we ? And decided to insult one of the few mps on his side ? Or perhaps a staffer, clicked before thinking and then rapidly deleted it.

[ 22. September 2015, 08:21: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
We all do stupid things when young,

I am fairly sure I had no sexual contact with dead animals - I find it slightly wierd that quite a few people are taking this line that, if true, this behaviour is normal. It really is not.

quote:
Sadly if it is true, I think the only thing he could do now is to step down because I can't see anyone taking him seriously after this. Which would be a shame because I think he's the right person for the job in other ways.

Unless someone provides photographic evidence, he is not going say this is true. The source for the story is paper thin though, and I am not convinced it actually happened.

The book also alleges he took drugs, and the most Cameron has ever said to that is - I never took cocaine after I became an mp. Is this more or less of a prpblem for you than whether he does up his collar button or not ?

[ 22. September 2015, 08:28: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

I think the Prime Minister comes out of this quite well. A man gave millions to the Conservative Party and thought he was entitled to a job as a result and Cameron said 'no'. The book looks like sour grapes.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

That would play better if he had not, in fact, offered Lord Ashcroft a job.

[ 22. September 2015, 08:56: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
This is what I said yesterday about this on the 'What are your thoughts on Jeremy Corbyn ....' thread.

Most of us did things when we were young that embarrass us now.

I'm sure she's too nice a person to do such a thing. But suppose the legends recently reported are true. Suppose also that at some time Jeremy Corbyn were to drop Diane Abbott from the Shadow Cabinet. And suppose then, she were to public an article in the press about how he snored, or how he had a tiny dingle-dangle. Would that be any different or any more relevant than pig-gate?

I have no view on whether the story is true or not. Either way, what I said yesterday is what I still think.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Would that be any different or any more relevant than pig-gate?

The actual event is irrelevant. They are different in that you are comparing traits over which someone has no control over vs a something done deliberately.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

In the Corbyn thread I said that these events from the past should have no bearing on politics but this piece I just read has changed my mind.

quote:
Burning money in front of a homeless person isn’t just intended to be a nasty prank, it serves to train a Bullingdon boy’s senses, to make other humans seem somehow less. That David Cameron and his allies George Osborne and Boris Johnson have all done this, and that they have all presided over a sharp spike in homelessness in London and throughout the UK, are not coincidental. The MP who provided Lord Ashcroft with the details of the pig story attended one meeting of the expensive club but left in disgust because ‘it was all about despising poor people’.

And thus part of the reason why the British are so ready to believe Lord Ashcroft’s story, aside from the fact that Ashcroft is a top-tier Establishment figure in a country with absurdly plaintiff-friendly libel laws, is that Cameron’s ideological training is already well understood by the public. There is nothing likable about such a background, particularly when the ruling class it produces is waging a war on the poor and disabled that would have made Thatcher blush.

Why the British are really laughing.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

Cameron has been accused of doing lots of
things while a member of the Bullingdon but I've never seen any evidence connecting him to anything in particular. The article quoted above suggests Cameron was a member of the Piers Gaveston Society but there seems to be doubt about this (it also reads a bit conspiracy theory-esque).

It's interesting how Cameron's membership of the Bullingdon is somehow a stain on his character whereas, say, David Dimbleby doesn't get tarred with the same brush.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

I spent my university time (which coincided almost exactly with the PM's - just at a different establishment) working for my degree, climbing mountains, eating curry and drinking beer. If, as has been suggested, that Cameron's activities are 'part of a normal university experience', then I worry for the safety of my children, who'll be heading off there shortly.

I knew several people who spent some of the time off their faces, either through drink or drugs. It was unfortunate for them. They didn't seem to come out at graduation (if they got there at all) with what they hoped for.

But okay, let's say these rumours are utterly and entirely untrue. Cameron's problem - more so now - is that people will look at him and believe that he's the sort of person who might just have done that sort of thing even if he hadn't.

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I think the Prime Minister comes out of this quite well.

Out of the eyesockets, presumably?

Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :

Assuming that the pig was dead, which I presume is the case as it seems to be just a pigs head, then is it even illegal?

I mean it might be bloody wierd, but there are more serious things going on in the world than some drunken prank from a long time ago.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

I saw a tweet suggesting that, under the law as it stands today, the alleged act would not be illegal but possessing a photograph of the alleged act would be (I think under 2003 legislation). I'm afraid I can't link to anything at the mo.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

IF he did it, would giving a large donation to an animal rights organization (PETA, etc.) help on the PR front?

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :

And an equally large donation of hard cash to prostate cancer research.

[ 22. September 2015, 10:36: Message edited by: Wesley J ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Would that be any different or any more relevant than pig-gate?
The actual event is irrelevant. They are different in that you are comparing traits over which someone has no control over vs a something done deliberately.

Sorry. Have I read that correctly? Are you saying that someone on the right can help taking part in a rowdy and unpleasant initiation ritual, but that two young people on the left can't help going on a summer of love tour of East Germany on a motorbike?

Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :

Giving a donation to PETA is never the answer. They're a loathesome organisation.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Nothing will help on the PR front except a dignified silence. The pig story is a gift for puns and jokes, but the real issue is why Lord Ashcroft thought he could effectively buy a position in government. Was he wildly deluded, or was his expectation based on previous examples?

Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Sorry. Have I read that correctly? Are you saying that someone on the right can help taking part in a rowdy and unpleasant initiation ritual, but that two young people on the left can't help going on a summer of love tour of East Germany on a motorbike?

I think it's rather more the case that Corbyn can't help it if he snores or has a small wang. Honestly, whatever might come up about a consensual sexual relationship with an adult human is unlikely to be in the same league.

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
[...] I think he's the right person for the job in other ways.

For the willy-in pig snout job? Perhaps. For the PM job? You're kidding!

[ 22. September 2015, 10:44: Message edited by: Wesley J ]

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Sorry. Have I read that correctly? Are you saying that someone on the right can help taking part in a rowdy and unpleasant initiation ritual

No. See what Liopleurodon said above. After all - it wasn't the summer of love episode that you were actually comparing it with.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

David Cameron was never a member of Piers Gaveston, although Hugh Grant was, also Rory Stewart MP.

Did DC attend as a guest on perform the alleged act? Doubtful. My sources tell me that the reputation of PG is far more lurid than is warranted, and while much may be written about so-called initiation rites, in practice they don't happen.

Should DC comment about the allegations? Absolutely not - why should he make any remark about a load of bo**ocks for which even Isabel Oakeshott (co-author with Lord Ashcroft) accepted they could find no corroboration and which, on her own admission, was left in the book because she thought it would make it racier and more saleable.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

It's interesting how Cameron's membership of the Bullingdon is somehow a stain on his character whereas, say, David Dimbleby doesn't get tarred with the same brush.

David Dimbleby hasn't taken up public office.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I think the Prime Minister comes out of this quite well.
Out of the eyesockets, presumably?

Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :

Bill Clinton claimed he never inhaled when smoking Marijuana.

So maybe Cameron will just deny ejaculating.

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

IF Pig-gate is true - and it's a very big if, because the Daily Mail doesn't care whose character it assassinates, and Lord Ashcroft is not exactly a classy person, "not settling scores" my arse - then even then I wouldn't find it that funny, because David Cameron has done far, far worse things than Pig-gate. Or at least presided over far worse things than Pig-gate. This present government is the most mean-spirited and immoral I can ever remember. I'd send the whole lot of them to the Tower if I could, and I'm not joking.

This article says it all, IMO:

http://theleveller.org/2015/09/british-really-laughing/

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Sadly if it is true, I think the only thing he could do now is to step down because I can't see anyone taking him seriously after this.

I agree with Boogie - it's worth a bit of a snigger, but it'll all blow over.

Doublethink: this specific act may be unusual, but I don't think the general idea is. Remember the apple pie scene from American Pie? The reason that played so well is that the thought process seems so reasonable to teenage boys. I don't know anyone who had access to a pig's head, but we dissected cow hearts in biology class in school, and at least one boy was reputed to have "utilized" the superior vena cava. I can't tell you whether it actually happened, but I can tell you that it was widely viewed as a bit gross, but entirely plausible.

(According to the reports I read, there is no allegation that the pig's head was used for sex - merely that the genitals were placed in it in an initiation ritual. A bit of quasi-sexual humiliation in initiations into male societies is as old as the hills. There was a case a few years ago involving an initiation into a US high school football team, in which a new member was debagged and photographed with a flag sticking out of his arse. IIRC, there were convictions for sexual assault - but don't think that those particular boys invented the idea.)

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Normalising sexual assault is also a problem, it is possible that Cameron is the victim of a crime in this. Either through being involved by coercion, or later subjected to blackmail.

[ 22. September 2015, 12:33: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Normalising sexual assault is also a problem,

Sure, but this is a rather modern view of this kind of thing. Thirty years ago, I don't think anyone would have viewed this kind of thing as sexual in any sense, any more than one boy dropping trou and farting whilst another hovered with a cigarette lighter was a sexual activity.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Canadian local newspaper comments about empty headed rich boys all competing for upper class twit of the year, and marvels at the UK's inability to dispense with archaic class boundaries, seeing this as part of the problem. Is there something to the privilege that some rich people feel, puts them on a cloud somewhere? Is this part of the problem?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Problem is, unsavoury initiation ceremonies are not the sole preserve of the rich and powerful - as anyone who grew up in a Welsh mining valley or a Pennine mill-town would be able to tell you ... some of the first-day at work ritual humiliations were pretty grotesque ...

[Ultra confused]

I have no idea how Cameron and his pals obtained the alleged pig's head but I have visions (or rather I wish I didn't) of something happening at a top table of a banquet with one of those medieval style pig's heads with an apple in its mouth -- or is it an apple?

[Ultra confused]

I think it's disgusting. Just as disgusting as voting Conservative in the first place ...

Still less becoming a Tory PM ...

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

I happen to think this story is completely false, but if one wanted to buy a pig's head wouldn't one simply go to one's butcher?

Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on :

Well, this is ruined for me! Perhaps the BBC should have it as part of this year's Nine Lessons and Carols.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r7adETaOYiQ

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Working class South Walian rugby clubs often have grim initiation ceremonies. My brother is something of a performance poet - using South Walian vernacular. One of his pieces is called 'Bollocky Bullrush Time' and describes the practice of running naked over the mountain from one valley to the next with a bull-rush clenched between one's buttocks.

In one of the villages he's lived in the initiation ceremony to progress from the youth team to the local rugby club was to 'ride the village bike' - the 60+ year old woman who ran the village cafe. Walking home one evening, my brother spotted - to his surprise - through the undrawn curtains of her terraced cottage (whose door opens straight out onto the street) a 17 year old lad of his acquaintance doing just that.

You could not make it up. And really, you don't want me to tell you how Cocky Morgan got his name ... ('Wannoo see my cucumber?')

I'm not relaying any of this to let snooty rich kids off the hook - and believe you me, I've heard enough about posh public school initiation ceremonies from those who endured them ...

[Eek!]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

You don't get many butchers on council estates.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I find it deeply depressing. We all do stupid things when young, and groups of young men fuelled by alcohol are hardly going to behave like saints, but it could hardly have been a more vindictive and better timed piece of nastiness, if true (an old friend of his was on the radio last night saying it was the first he'd ever heard of it). It ensured that amongst most people the prime minister is now a laughing stock, except in the Middle East/Israel, where he'll be regarded with disgust as being beyond the pale.

Sadly if it is true, I think the only thing he could do now is to step down because I can't see anyone taking him seriously after this. Which would be a shame because I think he's the right person for the job in other ways.

Everyone did stupid stuff when they were young. But there’s stupid and then there’s WTF? When most of us talk about our youthful indiscretions, they usually involve bad hair, terrible clothes, dodgy music, too much cheap beer or wine and, maybe, shagging the wrong people. Not sexual acts with dead pigs. There is no way you can normalise this. Although the press that got outraged because a man didn’t sing a song is giving it a good go.

The fact that the whole thing may not be true is irrelevant. The fact that most people believe it’s something Cameron would do is. This will haunt him until the end of his days. Oink.

Shame the noise has managed to distract the media from the various shit things the government has done in the last few days. Like abolishing free school meals for some children.

Cameron’s nickname is ham face. The delicious irony of it all …

Anyone else going to be re-watching Black Mirror over the weekend?

Tubbs

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You don't get many butchers on council estates.

Council estates tend to be attached to towns that have them, though?

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
The fact that the whole thing may not be true is irrelevant.

Brilliant.

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I think this matter probably tells us a lot more about Lord Ashcroft* than it does about David Cameron, but he's probably laughing all the way to the bank.

And also Jeremy Corbyn, who apparently 'favorited' a Tweet referring to both this and Diane Abbott. Nice.
We believe he personally controls his twitter account at all times do we ? And decided to insult one of the few mps on his side ? Or perhaps a staffer, clicked before thinking and then rapidly deleted it.

'Controls', no, but I think he (and every other politician) should accept responsibility for the Twitter feeds that they know are running in their names, with their permission/authority. If Joe Bloggs from Nuneaton or Widget and Flange Limited ran twitter feeds, I think people would expect them to be held responsible for what happens in their names, and to say something slightly better than "oops" when they get something very wrong (you know, perhaps one of those apology thingies). It seems that politicians are held to a much lower standard than anyone else regarding such things - we just don't expect them to be truthful.

Perhaps they should be prepared to say, "I endorse this Twitter feed", or stop pretending it's something to do with them, until it goes wrong.

I had hoped for something slightly better from Corbyn - he is, at least, not from the same "smug git" mould as so many politicians (plenty to go round). But it seems his behaviour isn't going to be any better.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

No - only in politics.....

....and will you all please note that 'wierd' is correctly spelled 'weird'?

Ian J.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Bugger - cross-posted......I meant that butchers were to be found in politics.....

...but a plague on all their houses, anyway - smarmy gits (politicians, that is).

Ian J.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Anglican't, various studies have shown that poorer people in social-housing tend to have more expensive food-bills than middle-class people who have better access to shops selling healthy food and so on.

It's not just an economic issue - it's got a lot to do with education and expectations and so on. My wife works in a primary school on the edge of a large council estate and although the intake is pretty mixed - there are lots of private houses close by too - but malnutrition is not unknown. The teachers are forever rustling up food for kids who're not being fed properly at home.

If you go up to Easterhouse in Glasgow and to the larger 'sink-estates' in many British cities then the problem is even more acute.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
David Cameron was never a member of Piers Gaveston, although Hugh Grant was, also Rory Stewart MP.

Did DC attend as a guest on perform the alleged act? Doubtful. My sources tell me that the reputation of PG is far more lurid than is warranted, and while much may be written about so-called initiation rites, in practice they don't happen.

Should DC comment about the allegations? Absolutely not - why should he make any remark about a load of bo**ocks for which even Isabel Oakeshott (co-author with Lord Ashcroft) accepted they could find no corroboration and which, on her own admission, was left in the book because she thought it would make it racier and more saleable.

That shows a poor understanding of PR. When a book like this is published, you go through it looking for inaccurate stuff to pick apart. If you can prove that one statement is wrong, it makes it much easier to discredit the rest of it. (Even the true stuff. Which you avoid commenting on in case evidence that it was true emerges later).

"We're not going to dignify this with a response" is PR speak for "the denial we got from our client was not as robust as we'd have liked so we can't issue an outright denial. Let's hope the media soon gets bored".

Tubbs

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Everyone did stupid stuff when they were young. But there’s stupid and then there’s WTF? When most of us talk about our youthful indiscretions, they usually involve bad hair, terrible clothes, dodgy music, too much cheap beer or wine and, maybe, shagging the wrong people. Not sexual acts with dead pigs. There is no way you can normalise this.

If it was normal it wouldn't be much of an initiation ritual, would it?

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anglican't, various studies have shown that poorer people in social-housing tend to have more expensive food-bills than middle-class people who have better access to shops selling healthy food and so on.

That's all very nice, but you asked where one might buy a pig's head, to which my suggested answer was 'a butcher'. I don't see what affect the supposed plight of the working classes has on the availability of a pig's head from Cutts the Butcher.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
"We're not going to dignify this with a response" is PR speak for "the denial we got from our client was not as robust as we'd have liked so we can't issue an outright denial. Let's hope the media soon gets bored".

Tubbs

If that's the case then politicians would be denying all sorts, including that they are lizards.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I think this matter probably tells us a lot more about Lord Ashcroft* than it does about David Cameron, but he's probably laughing all the way to the bank.

And also Jeremy Corbyn, who apparently 'favorited' a Tweet referring to both this and Diane Abbott. Nice.
We believe he personally controls his twitter account at all times do we ? And decided to insult one of the few mps on his side ? Or perhaps a staffer, clicked before thinking and then rapidly deleted it.
'Controls', no, but I think he (and every other politician) should accept responsibility for the Twitter feeds that they know are running in their names, with their permission/authority. If Joe Bloggs from Nuneaton or Widget and Flange Limited ran twitter feeds, I think people would expect them to be held responsible for what happens in their names, and to say something slightly better than "oops" when they get something very wrong (you know, perhaps one of those apology thingies). It seems that politicians are held to a much lower standard than anyone else regarding such things - we just don't expect them to be truthful.

Perhaps they should be prepared to say, "I endorse this Twitter feed", or stop pretending it's something to do with them, until it goes wrong.

I had hoped for something slightly better from Corbyn - he is, at least, not from the same "smug git" mould as so many politicians (plenty to go round). But it seems his behaviour isn't going to be any better.

Oh FFS, even the Daily Mail accepted it was an accident, and it was removed almost immediately. Plus it was derogatory toward Cameron, Corbyn and Abbot.- do you seriously think it was in any way intentional ?

This would be different from someone posting onto their own feed - "Oh look Cameron's telling porkies #hameron", leaving it up for five minutes and then thinking better of it and deleting it.

Then, I would expect an apology along the lines of - that comment was a misjudgement, I am sorry, I thught better of it and removed it.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
"We're not going to dignify this with a response" is PR speak for "the denial we got from our client was not as robust as we'd have liked so we can't issue an outright denial. Let's hope the media soon gets bored".

Tubbs
If that's the case then politicians would be denying all sorts, including that they are lizards.

David Icke is not a reputable source. Lord Ashcroft is.

Tubbs

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
David Icke is not a reputable source. Lord Ashcroft is.

Sorry. Since when?

Or are we saying that having a title automatically make one into a reputable source?

Besides, nobody seems to have commented on the fairly obvious fact that Lord Ashcroft did not go to Oxford. He's therefore unlikely to have witnessed the alleged act of necrophilia. I think even he only alleges he got it from a third party.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

My point, Anglican't was that poor, working-class people have less access to pig's heads for whatever purpose than richer, posher people do.

Unless they work in a slaughter house.

I did point out, though, that obscene initiation ceremonies aren't the sole preserve of Tory Boys and Mr Nice But Dims or Little Lord Fauntleroy.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Talking of embarrassing allegations, I see the MET have stated they have insufficient evidence to proceed against Lord Sewell on drugs charges, and have closed their investigation.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Talking of embarrassing allegations, I see the MET have stated they have insufficient evidence to proceed against Lord Sewell on drugs charges, and have closed their investigation.

It does make you wonder, doesn't it? If video footage of you taking drugs isn't sufficient, what is?

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Well, in theory the white powder could have been sherbert ?

Bet it wouldn't wash if you were Sharon Smith from the local sink estate though.

[ 22. September 2015, 14:51: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
David Icke is not a reputable source. Lord Ashcroft is.
Sorry. Since when?

Or are we saying that having a title automatically make one into a reputable source?

If the former Tory party treasurer isn't a reliable source, then that is news in itself.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
David Icke is not a reputable source. Lord Ashcroft is.
Sorry. Since when?

Or are we saying that having a title automatically make one into a reputable source?
If the former Tory party treasurer isn't a reliable source, then that is news in itself.

Exactly! With all these stories, they'll look at the source as that will decide whether or not it's likely to be taken seriously / widely reported.

And former Tory party treasurer shares stories of his time in office, plus other stories he's heard along the way about Cameron and other high ranking Tories. That sounds like a reputable, reliable source to me! Admittedly one with long-standing grudge and some scores to settle.

Tubbs

[ 22. September 2015, 15:49: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
When most of us talk about our youthful indiscretions, they usually involve bad hair, terrible clothes, dodgy music, too much cheap beer or wine and, maybe, shagging the wrong people. Not sexual acts with dead pigs. There is no way you can normalise this.

Clearly you don't hang out with the right (wrong?) people. After a decade of playing rugby I can tell far worse stories than that.

Hell, I can tell worse stories than pig-gate from my time playing cricket. And that's supposed to be a civilised sport...

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Someone has to say, such as ...

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Someone has to say, such as ...

There was the night we all went out clubbing and played the "what's the most disgusting thing you can do" game in a nightclub. I shan't reveal the winning entry (which wasn't me) as it was a very worthy winner.

One initiation ritual we had involved eating a banana that had been inserted halfway up the prop's rectum. While it was still there.

There was the time one of the cricket lads (who also played rugby, oddly enough) celebrated a wicket by picking up the bail and folding his foreskin over it.

And of course, who can forget that seminal post-match tipple: "ass-crack advocaat"?

Enough to be going on with? These are the sort of things that most people who are members of sports clubs will have experienced, raising the question of exactly what "normalised" can be said to mean in this context...

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Someone has to say, such as ...
There was the night we all went out clubbing and played the "what's the most disgusting thing you can do" game in a nightclub. I shan't reveal the winning entry (which wasn't me) as it was a very worthy winner.

One initiation ritual we had involved eating a banana that had been inserted halfway up the prop's rectum. While it was still there.

There was the time one of the cricket lads (who also played rugby, oddly enough) celebrated a wicket by picking up the bail and folding his foreskin over it.

And of course, who can forget that seminal post-match tipple: "ass-crack advocaat"?

Enough to be going on with? These are the sort of things that most people who are members of sports clubs will have experienced, raising the question of exactly what "normalised" can be said to mean in this context...

Thank you for sharing. I knew there was a reason why I always avoided sports [Razz]

Tubbs

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

What is this with UK folks and animals? I once watched a British political debate and one guy was accused of sucking off a horse.

While we were on a cruise last year we became friends with a couple from Wales. When friends of my wife picked us up at Southampton and we were telling them about our trip the husband told us the Welsh get it on with sheep.

Strange folk, you Brits, I tell you what, mmm hmm.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Someone has to say, such as ...
There was the night we all went out clubbing and played the "what's the most disgusting thing you can do" game in a nightclub. I shan't reveal the winning entry (which wasn't me) as it was a very worthy winner.

One initiation ritual we had involved eating a banana that had been inserted halfway up the prop's rectum. While it was still there.

There was the time one of the cricket lads (who also played rugby, oddly enough) celebrated a wicket by picking up the bail and folding his foreskin over it.

And of course, who can forget that seminal post-match tipple: "ass-crack advocaat"?

Enough to be going on with? These are the sort of things that most people who are members of sports clubs will have experienced, raising the question of exactly what "normalised" can be said to mean in this context...

Still want to know what that, most disgusting thing, winner was.

On this basis, perhaps Cameron would be better off saying - yeah I stuck my dick in a pig, so what ?

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
When most of us talk about our youthful indiscretions, they usually involve bad hair, terrible clothes, dodgy music, too much cheap beer or wine and, maybe, shagging the wrong people. Not sexual acts with dead pigs. There is no way you can normalise this.
Clearly you don't hang out with the right (wrong?) people. After a decade of playing rugby I can tell far worse stories than that.

Hell, I can tell worse stories than pig-gate from my time playing cricket. And that's supposed to be a civilised sport...

What kind of cricket did you play? Where? With whom?

The worst I've ever seen as an initiation ceremony in cricket (and I've played in a few different contexts), was a chorus of singing in the rain whilst being squirted by soda syphons (with soda in them). Mind you it was in a pub ....

Then again, I didn't go to public school ...

[ 22. September 2015, 16:10: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What is this with UK folks and animals? I once watched a British political debate and one guy was accused of sucking off a horse.

While we were on a cruise last year we became friends with a couple from Wales. When friends of my wife picked us up at Southampton and we were telling them about our trip the husband told us the Welsh get it on with sheep.

Strange folk, you Brits, I tell you what, mmm hmm.

The sheep thing is largely apocryphal, fueled by the fact that there used to be a lower penalty for buggering a sheep than stealing one (hanging) - so found with someone else's sheep, what are you going to claim ?

That said, one of our more prolific serial killers - Fred West - was taught to bugger sheep by his father as a boy. (Apparently there's a knack to it and you have to put their back legs down your wellington boots.)

Meanwhile back at Cameron: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/piggate-suggests-power-in-britain-depends-on-the-manipulations-of-wealthy-men-10511416.ht ml

As to normalisation - in the USA they have put a lot of effort into trying detoxify hazing. This is possibly something we should be doing here in the UK.

[ 22. September 2015, 16:17: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Going back a bit, why have I only heard about burning money in front of the homeless here? And where can I read it up fully?

I do have information on Bullingdon vandalising of a restaurant on the Cowley Road from someone who knew the owner.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Then again, I didn't go to public school ...

Nor did I. All those stories involve perfectly ordinary middle- or working-class folk.

Posted by Jack o' the Green (# 11091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

That said, one of our more prolific serial killers - Fred West - was taught to bugger sheep by his father as a boy. (Apparently there's a knack to it and you have to put their back legs down your wellington boots.)

It helps stop them running away, but also has a safety aspect as it also prevents kicking.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Not heard the horse story, Mere Nick.

I'm surprised the Welsh bloke 'fessed up to sheep-shagging, though - it's a calumny generally levelled at the Welsh by outsiders - although we do tell jokes about it ourselves.

Similar stories are told in remote or rural parts of continental Europe - although more often involving goats in Southern Europe rather than sheep.

Anyhow, on your side of the Pond the good ol' down-home guys from the Hillbilly boondocks are in no position to laugh. I daresay they'll have a good chuckle about it with their sisters or aunts when they're in bed this evening ...

Mind you, if voting for Cameron isn't bad enough I understand there are people over there who are likely to vote for Trump ...

[Ultra confused]

As for the antics that sporting types get up to, Marvin has made me glad that I'm one of these nesh bookish types who was neither good for track nor field ...

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Interesting that when the University of Southampton cracked down on initiations, sports participation went up by 27%

http://c1593.r93.cf3.rackcdn.com/31_11200400023203_26.doc

(Also, it worth pointing out that most adults are not in sports clubs - and certainly not in rugby and cricket clubs.)

[ 22. September 2015, 16:37: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Going back a bit, why have I only heard about burning money in front of the homeless here? And where can I read it up fully?

I do have information on Bullingdon vandalising of a restaurant on the Cowley Road from someone who knew the owner.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club The £50 thing hit the headlines in 2013 and was covered in various papers.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Course a lot of this stuff is similar to what is reported to happen on 18 to 30 holidays, or broadcast on Geordie Shore.

[ 22. September 2015, 16:45: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Thank you for the link. I had heard that there were people who thought that burning money in front of rough sleepers was a jolly wheeze, but not that it was associated with the Bullingdons. And the link doesn't specifically link Cameron, Osborne and Johnson with that activity.

If I were a butcher, and someone who did not look as though they were going to be involved in making brawn or a grand presentation of a boar's head somewhere wanted a pig's head, I would get suspicious. Not because of the activity reported in Ashcroft's book, but because they have been used in racist actions, for which there are several targets in Oxford.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The sheep thing is largely apocryphal, fueled by the fact that there used to be a lower penalty for buggering a sheep than stealing one (hanging) - so found with someone else's sheep, what are you going to claim ?

That's a tough spot. You either get hanged or you live a life in shame. If you find the cure for the worst 10 diseases in the world but get it on with one sheep, you'll be remembered for the sheep.

quote:
That said, one of our more prolific serial killers - Fred West - was taught to bugger sheep by his father as a boy. (Apparently there's a knack to it and you have to put their back legs down your wellington boots.)

Back legs in the wellington boots was what the guy in Southampton told us, too. I just hope I don't get noticed looking a tad askance at folks in the UK who are wearing those boots the next time we go over. It is a bit comforting, though, to hear that a father taught his son the finer points instead of hearing it is part of the education curriculum.

quote:
As to normalisation - in the USA they have put a lot of effort into trying detoxify hazing. This is possibly something we should be doing here in the UK.

I would have a hard time explaining any real difference between hazing and bullying. From books I've read and movies I've seen, it seems to be a bit worse in the UK but that's books and movies. Bullies suck, imo.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Not heard the horse story, Mere Nick.

Really? The candidate who accused the other was Ali something or other. A shocking accusation, to say the least. I remember him as a rather disgusting fellow, though, and trust his political debating style is not typical of that heard in Parliament.

quote:
I'm surprised the Welsh bloke 'fessed up to sheep-shagging, though - it's a calumny generally levelled at the Welsh by outsiders - although we do tell jokes about it ourselves.

It was the guy in Southampton that told us about it, not the Welsh guy.

quote:
Anyhow, on your side of the Pond the good ol' down-home guys from the Hillbilly boondocks are in no position to laugh. I daresay they'll have a good chuckle about it with their sisters or aunts when they're in bed this evening ...

Sure, we can laugh. We aren't the ones who can't pick up a hot chick at a family reunion, mmm hmm.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

It is interesting that the media have dug into Corbyn for several weeks, and the worst they can find is that an ancestor ran a workhouse. And he had an affair with another MP.

Whereas apparently sticking his knob in a dead pigs head is not the worse thing that he has done, but is pretty bad.

Is it true? Who knows. It seems that people believe that it is possible. That is probably quite enough of a condemnation of him. And yes, Lord Ashcroft spent a lot of money trying to buy a cabinet post and failed, and so is trying to get his own back.

It is showing the stupid game that rich people play with politics. It sucks. I am not sure it really matters is Cameron stuck his genitalia into a pig-head. It does matter that many of the senior Tories will - and have - done anything for power.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

A lot of people think it's possible because it's the sort of thing that groups of boozed-up lads get up to every now and then, especially in the relative privacy of a club where the general public doesn't go. Doesn't matter if it's an upper class Oxford club or a working class rugby club.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Clearly I've led a very sheltered life ....

I'm not sure I'll be able to watch Rugby with the same enthusiasm in the future. Meanwhile, off to find some brain bleach.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Should DC comment about the allegations? Absolutely not - why should he make any remark about a load of bo**ocks

So he tea-bagged the pig?

I'll get me coat.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is interesting that the media have dug into Corbyn for several weeks, and the worst they can find is that an ancestor ran a workhouse. And he had an affair with another MP.

Whereas apparently sticking his knob in a dead pigs head is not the worse thing that he has done, but is pretty bad.

Is it true? Who knows. It seems that people believe that it is possible. That is probably quite enough of a condemnation of him. And yes, Lord Ashcroft spent a lot of money trying to buy a cabinet post and failed, and so is trying to get his own back.

It is showing the stupid game that rich people play with politics. It sucks. I am not sure it really matters is Cameron stuck his genitalia into a pig-head. It does matter that many of the senior Tories will - and have - done anything for power.

I think it is a bit pernicious that people noticing Lord Ashcroft's desire for revenge cos he didn't get the job he wanted - are overlooking the fact that Cameron *did* offer him a job.

Posted by Pottage (# 9529) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is interesting that the media have dug into Corbyn for several weeks, and the worst they can find is that an ancestor ran a workhouse. And he had an affair with another MP.

Whereas apparently sticking his knob in a dead pigs head is not the worse thing that he has done, but is pretty bad.

Is it true? Who knows. It seems that people believe that it is possible. That is probably quite enough of a condemnation of him. And yes, Lord Ashcroft spent a lot of money trying to buy a cabinet post and failed, and so is trying to get his own back.

It is showing the stupid game that rich people play with politics. It sucks. I am not sure it really matters is Cameron stuck his genitalia into a pig-head. It does matter that many of the senior Tories will - and have - done anything for power.

As you say, we don't know whether Cameron did experience a moment of special tenderness with Miss Piggy. We have that story from someone who is unashamedly trying to embarrass Cameron in order to settle a grudge, and who is writing about something he didn't witness. But assuming it's true, it points to the fact that as a drunken young man Cameron once got involved in some hazing ritual that would seemingly be regarded are fairly run of the mill on a rugby tour, and decidedly tame in the military or the fire service. It seems to be about as material to Cameron's professional competence as Corbyn's sartorial inelegance is to his.

I don't suppose the worst thing that is going to laid at Cameron's door by the Mail's serialisation is that 30 years ago he broke Kermit's heart. If it is, then Lord Ashcroft's Revenge is going to disappoint.

To be fair, the press have turned up things about Jeremy Corbyn more damning than that he's had a fling with one, or (allegedly) two fellow MPs over the years, that he often looks as though it must be his carer's day off, or that one of his ancestors ran a workhouse. So far, most stories are about the very few things we all knew about Jeremy Corbyn already, his willingness to extend the hand of friendship to people most of us would cross three lanes of traffic to avoid. But he has been a professional politician for decades in a pretty murky world, as witness the renewed coverage of the child abuse scandals in his constituency in the 1980s. I doubt the press are done with digging just yet.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pottage:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is interesting that the media have dug into Corbyn for several weeks, and the worst they can find is that an ancestor ran a workhouse. And he had an affair with another MP.

Whereas apparently sticking his knob in a dead pigs head is not the worse thing that he has done, but is pretty bad.

Is it true? Who knows. It seems that people believe that it is possible. That is probably quite enough of a condemnation of him. And yes, Lord Ashcroft spent a lot of money trying to buy a cabinet post and failed, and so is trying to get his own back.

It is showing the stupid game that rich people play with politics. It sucks. I am not sure it really matters is Cameron stuck his genitalia into a pig-head. It does matter that many of the senior Tories will - and have - done anything for power.
As you say, we don't know whether Cameron did experience a moment of special tenderness with Miss Piggy. We have that story from someone who is unashamedly trying to embarrass Cameron in order to settle a grudge, and who is writing about something he didn't witness. But assuming it's true, it points to the fact that as a drunken young man Cameron once got involved in some hazing ritual that would seemingly be regarded are fairly run of the mill on a rugby tour, and decidedly tame in the military or the fire service. It seems to be about as material to Cameron's professional competence as Corbyn's sartorial inelegance is to his.

I find it interesting that the various allegations against Cameron (not just the one about the pig) would - in previous times - have been the cause of instant resignation. Class A drugs - lying to Parliament - do these things not matter any more?

Or - to put it another way - if Corbyn (or any Labour Leader) were in a similar position, would they get as much latitude as Cameron is getting? Would they hell! They would be hounded out of their position within 24 hours.

In many ways (perhaps I am being too Machiavellian here), these "revelations" are actually helping Cameron. They have brought out into the open matters which people have long had suspicions about, but which had been glossed over. But now they are out there (especially the lying to Parliament), they are being swamped in the Piggate fallout and not being properly addressed.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

And of course, who can forget that seminal post-match tipple: "ass-crack advocaat"?

That could only improve advocaat.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Doublethink.

quote:
That said, one of our more prolific serial killers - Fred West - was taught to bugger sheep by his father as a boy. (Apparently there's a knack to it and you have to put their back legs down your wellington boots.)

FRONT legs - I've an in-law who grew up in the Forest of Dean (Fred West country) and that's the low-down from them...

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

I was told that if you take the sheep to the edge of a cliff, it pushes back harder...

Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Not heard the horse story, Mere Nick.
Really? The candidate who accused the other was Ali something or other. A shocking accusation, to say the least. I remember him as a rather disgusting fellow, though, and trust his political debating style is not typical of that heard in Parliament.

<snip>

For goodness sake man, that was from the film "Ali-G in Da House" - featuring Sacha Baron Cohen in the title role of Ali-G, a spoof on "black culture". He followed that up with Bruno the gay Austrian fashionista, and and of course Borat the Khazakstani reporter.

People might regard this episode as stranger than fiction, but that was, undoubtedly, fiction.

Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :

Watch it here...

https://youtu.be/j9Isvp18rq0?t=1150

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Yes, I wondered whether it was Sacha Ben Cohen's Ali G character - just shows how good at spoofs he is ...

Although I'm now having palpitations at the thought of US audiences thinking he's for real ... [Ultra confused]

But then, they wouldn't be the first to make that mistake ... it's happened here too.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Doublethink.
quote:
That said, one of our more prolific serial killers - Fred West - was taught to bugger sheep by his father as a boy. (Apparently there's a knack to it and you have to put their back legs down your wellington boots.)
FRONT legs - I've an in-law who grew up in the Forest of Dean (Fred West country) and that's the low-down from them...

I'm trying to envisage this and I can't.

Tangent - Aberdeen Football fans are known as the sheepshaggers (NSFW). The Aberdeen FC mascot is a sheep.

A non-local minister was giving the children's address in church and asked "Who chases sheep?" The post-service coffee chat confirmed that half the congregation were bracing themselves for the reply "Aberdeen fans"

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

I assume its a height thing, needing the sheep to be in the wheelbarrow position - doing a handstand as it were.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, I wondered whether it was Sacha Ben Cohen's Ali G character - just shows how good at spoofs he is ...

Although I'm now having palpitations at the thought of US audiences thinking he's for real ...

But then, they wouldn't be the first to make that mistake ... it's happened here too.

Please reassure me. Tell me Donald Trump is a spoof.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, I wondered whether it was Sacha Ben Cohen's Ali G character - just shows how good at spoofs he is ...

Although I'm now having palpitations at the thought of US audiences thinking he's for real ...

But then, they wouldn't be the first to make that mistake ... it's happened here too.
Please reassure me. Tell me Donald Trump is a spoof.

No Donald Trump is all too real and doing really well in the polls. The man with the Wheatbix hair could indeed be the leader of the free world.

Tubbs

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

[Big Grin]

If only, Enoch ... if only ...

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I'd like to know if the pig swallowed. This is an important question because apparently if you are a politician (or anyone in any position of authority) then the question of swallowing or inhalation seems to be quite crucial. Seeing the pig in question was dead and lacked a body then I have some doubts. If the pig didn't swallow then it's all fine; nothing whatsoever to see here except a PM of a very rich country fucking a dead pig head in the mouth for a bit of a larf. All you lot getting all upitty at this should really try and get out a bit more; perhaps down to your local pub or sports club. Apparently it's tame compared to what societies underlings get down with down the sports bar.....so a man down the pub told me.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Contemplates circus poll.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Makes a circus poll

http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=002221;p=1#000000

Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :

Question 6

Are you male or female ?

Choose 1

Yes
No
Too drunk to know

Interesting question....

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Not heard the horse story, Mere Nick.
Really? The candidate who accused the other was Ali something or other. A shocking accusation, to say the least. I remember him as a rather disgusting fellow, though, and trust his political debating style is not typical of that heard in Parliament.

<snip>

For goodness sake man, that was from the film "Ali-G in Da House"

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say something.

Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Not heard the horse story, Mere Nick.
Really? The candidate who accused the other was Ali something or other. A shocking accusation, to say the least. I remember him as a rather disgusting fellow, though, and trust his political debating style is not typical of that heard in Parliament.

<snip>

For goodness sake man, that was from the film "Ali-G in Da House"
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say something.

I do apologise, I was out being churchy last night, so wasn't available to help out...

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Although I'm now having palpitations at the thought of US audiences thinking he's for real ...

Nah, but it was one of the first things I thought about when I first heard about this pig thing.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Doublethink.
quote:
That said, one of our more prolific serial killers - Fred West - was taught to bugger sheep by his father as a boy. (Apparently there's a knack to it and you have to put their back legs down your wellington boots.)
FRONT legs - I've an in-law who grew up in the Forest of Dean (Fred West country) and that's the low-down from them...

Well, some people use the sheep's front legs in the wellies, when they want to kiss.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

A friend on Facebook commented, it almost doesn't matter if the story is true or not. What matters is that the entire nation has looked at their PM and thought, "Yes, he could have done it".

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

What boggles me is that pigs have quite sharp teeth. Even dead, this would have been ... dodgy.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

That's it - I'm joining the brain-bleach queue ...

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

"Lord Ashcroft's Revenge" would make a good name for a pub.

"I'll meet you at the sign of the pig's head".

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

What I'm wondering: putting your member into a dead pig is obviously yucky. But is it immoral?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

[Confused]

Well, on what grounds could it be considered moral?

At best, it's a puerile drunken prank. At worst ...

But even as a prank it's in pretty poor taste - simulating oral sex with a pig is pretty gross but anyone's standards, surely?

Would it be any more 'moral' or 'immoral' if it were a simulated sex act involving a human being or a representation of a human being?

It's pretty shady however we cut it.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Depends on what moral standards you claim to uphold. Hypocrisy is the usual charge levelled at politicians on the grounds of their habit of publically spouting off about how others should live their lives.

The claims about Cameron's drug use would have less traction if he supported decriminalisation, for example.

In this case it highlights conspicuous consumption and waste from a man who is cutting aid to the poor.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Well, on what grounds could it be considered moral?

At best, it's a puerile drunken prank. At worst ...

But even as a prank it's in pretty poor taste - simulating oral sex with a pig is pretty gross but anyone's standards, surely?

Would it be any more 'moral' or 'immoral' if it were a simulated sex act involving a human being or a representation of a human being?

It's pretty shady however we cut it.

Worse than arse crack advocaat ?

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/02/im-not-devoid-of-morality-david-cameron-tells-church-leaders

"A bit hazy ...."

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Mind you, I seem to remember a photo of Tony Blair from his student days where he was with some of his rowdy toff friends and he was making simulated masturbatory hand-actions for the camera.

I don't remember much of a fuss about that at the time.

It did, however, arguably define much of his political career ...

[Ultra confused]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Advocaat is unacceptable at any time other than Christmas, whether arse-crack or otherwise.

Honestly, there must be some standards of common decency ...

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The claims about Cameron's drug use would have less traction if he supported decriminalisation, for example.

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the Prime Minister's "normal student experience" that he doesn't want to get explicit about includes casual smoking of cannabis. What does that mean?

(For the avoidance of doubt, I make no claims about anything he may have done in his youth, but merely wish to explore the consequences if some of the allegations were to be true.)

So - a politician does drugs in his youth, and is opposed to people being able to take drugs. Does that make him a hypocrite? No, not at all.

If, on the other hand, that politician was of the opinion that anyone who took drugs in his youth should be permanently banned from holding any kind of responsible job, then he would be a hypocrite.

Or if a politician was currently taking recreational drugs whilst supporting them being illegal, he would be a hypocrite.

Posted by Grokesx (# 17221) on :

@NE Quine

quote:
Tangent - Aberdeen Football fans are known as the sheepshaggers (NSFW). The Aberdeen FC mascot is a sheep.

Also the fans of my home team, the Rams - Derby County, happily refer to themselves as the Sheep Shag Army.

@Doublethink

quote:
In this case it highlights conspicuous consumption and waste from a man who is cutting aid to the poor.

A case of screwing the pork highlighting screwing the poor?

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Gamaliel: Well, on what grounds could it be considered moral?

In my view that's not how it works. Things are moral until you can give me a reason why they are immoral, not the other way around.

quote:
Gamaliel: But even as a prank it's in pretty poor taste - simulating oral sex with a pig is pretty gross but anyone's standards, surely?

Yes of course, it grosses me out. But gross is not the same as immoral. For example, I think one of the arguments of the LBGT movement is "Just because you think it's gross, doesn't make it immoral." And I agree with that.

quote:
Gamaliel: Would it be any more 'moral' or 'immoral' if it were a simulated sex act involving a human being

Now we get into the area of consent. If this human being hasn't consented (or isn't able to give consent), then it's rape and that is obviously immoral. But that is not the case here.

quote:
Gamaliel: or a representation of a human being?

A representation of a specific human being you mean? Yes, if I made a doll that looked exactly like a specific person and I would have (simulated) sex with that, I can imagine that this person would object to that. And yes, I would find this immoral. But that is not the case here either.

I wouldn't have an objection against having (simulated) sex with a generic representation of a human being. I mean, that's what sex dolls are.

quote:
Doublethink.: Hypocrisy is the usual charge levelled at politicians on the grounds of their habit of publically spouting off about how others should live their lives.

Yes, I can see that. If the piggate story is true and Cameron as a politician would be ostracising people for their sexual behaviour, then this would be hypocritical. And hypocrisy is immoral. I'm in the UK at the moment, but I don't follow its politics well enough to know whether this has happened.

This is a PR disaster for sure, whether the story is true or not, but immoral? I'm not convinced.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
The claims about Cameron's drug use would have less traction if he supported decriminalisation, for example.
Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the Prime Minister's "normal student experience" that he doesn't want to get explicit about includes casual smoking of cannabis. What does that mean?

(For the avoidance of doubt, I make no claims about anything he may have done in his youth, but merely wish to explore the consequences if some of the allegations were to be true.)

So - a politician does drugs in his youth, and is opposed to people being able to take drugs. Does that make him a hypocrite? No, not at all.

If, on the other hand, that politician was of the opinion that anyone who took drugs in his youth should be permanently banned from holding any kind of responsible job, then he would be a hypocrite.

Or if a politician was currently taking recreational drugs whilst supporting them being illegal, he would be a hypocrite.

Current regulatory system is such that for some professions getting picked up for drugs offences in your youth - however minor - can prevent you being able to enter the profession. Don't see Cameron dioing mich to change that.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Done some googling, looks like the Human Rights act has resulted in changes to the DBS disclosure rules that would in fact change this.

Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on :

It may be that I have become desensitized - that I've somehow lost that edge of moral outrage, disgust or whatever else I should have felt when the Pig Gate story broke.

Perhaps over-exposure to the more repulsive aspects of human nature has disabled my shock/horror function. I don't suppose years spent running a pub which doubled as a motorcycle gang's HQ has helped. Nonetheless, I'd like to imagine that I would be at least slightly grossed-out if Cameron was accused of being overcome by lust for the pig's head, and had been unable to control his urges. Or if someone had walked in on him, as he furtively did the deed...perhaps repeating the pig's name over and over, as his frenzied thrusting moved to a climax.

But (if it happened) it was a very public display, presumably for the amusement of inebriated youngsters. It just doesn't really register on my vomitometer. A pig blowing on the pork trumpet may be slightly ironic, but - under the circumstances - it seems little more than a prank of dubious taste.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I agree, Rhythm Methodist. I've been baffled by all the hoo ha. There are tons of gross rituals used by kids of all ages and classes, by various professions, and sports people, and so on. This one is not particularly high on the gross out scale. I suppose the fact that it's Cameron has added to the scandal.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I agree, Rhythm Methodist. I've been baffled by all the hoo ha.

The hoo ha wasn't involved - it was just the pig's mouth.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
What I'm wondering: putting your member into a dead pig is obviously yucky. But is it immoral?

Would you tell your grandmother about it?

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Mere Nick: Would you tell your grandmother about it?

Probably not, but that doesn't make it immoral either. There are plenty of things I wouldn't tell to my late grandmother.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Mere Nick: Would you tell your grandmother about it?
Probably not, but that doesn't make it immoral either. There are plenty of things I wouldn't tell to my late grandmother.

Yeah, well, me neither. I don't do animals, though, in case you are wondering.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Mere Nick: Yeah, well, me neither. I don't do animals, though, in case you are wondering.

I wasn't. I guess that if I would do such a thing, my grandmother would call it onfatsounlek (and she'd make a facial expression that would get her point across). This more or less translates as "indecent", "against good costumes". But that's something different from immoral to me.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Costumes [Biased]

I think the English equivalent would be either "vulgar", or "terribly bad form"

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

The thing is, "bad form" for the very wealthy and privileged might well be seen as "immoral" by us lesser mortals.

It used to be the case* that sons of landed gentry would have their way with the females from the village. The "bad form" would then be getting caught out. Most of us would consider screwing your bound employees to be immoral.

*I suspect it still is, TBH.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The thing is, "bad form" for the very wealthy and privileged might well be seen as "immoral" by us lesser mortals.

It used to be the case* that sons of landed gentry would have their way with the females from the village. The "bad form" would then be getting caught out. Most of us would consider screwing your bound employees to be immoral.

*I suspect it still is, TBH.

It's a convenient myth that this is an exclusively class issue. All sorts of people who find themselves managers from all levels of society give way to the temptation to exploit female staff in that manner.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Schroedinger's cat: It used to be the case* that sons of landed gentry would have their way with the females from the village.

Perhaps, but this isn't about Cameron having had his way with a female from the village.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I agree, Rhythm Methodist. I've been baffled by all the hoo ha.

Right. It's not like he did anything really gross and news worthy. Like standing in respectful silence or not doing his top button up.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Please reassure me. Tell me Donald Trump is a spoof.

He is, but he doesn't know it yet--or is in denial. We've been thinking of doing an intervention.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

I love pigs in blankets, but Mr. Sausage in bacon is going too far.

There again ...

[ 24. September 2015, 21:44: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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