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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Helicopter parents are harming their kids. Stop it!
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The damaging effects of helicopter parenting apparently include children who cannot cope with basic daily personal responsibilities.
Have you had interactions with helicopter parents? Can you believe that a parent would try to influence their adult child's job interview or hiring? Or would show up on a university campus to organize the adult child's classes or residence? For younger kids, not let them walk or ride a bike to friend's house?
I don't know, it floors me. Many incompetent children and many incompetent adults would appear to be the result.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I work at a university campus. We hear lots of tales of helicopter parents, but for the most part they seem to be far fewer than the rumors make them out to be. They're easily mockable, but nearly as prevalent as people seem to think they are. I teach around 200 undergrads a year for the last 10 years, in all that time, I've only had one parent contact me, and that was a parent who was reasonably concerned about their child's mental health, and they understood when I explained the legal barriers that prevented me from telling them much.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Thanks for that, np. I've heard of this phenomenon, but that explains it quite clearly.
I also work at a university campus as an educator, and I teach roughly twice as many students a year as cliffdweller. And like him or her, I haven't experienced much of this phenomenon yet. A mother did phone me once asking for an extension for her daughter's assignment, which I thought was odd, but at the time assumed was because her daughter was just too ill to ask herself.
It does sound damaging, particularly if the progeny do not have the resources to effectively re-parent themselves and learn to look after themselves and take responsibility for their own lives.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The infographic has some issues, most notably just assuming a connection between higher rates of psych drugs, counseling, etc. and helicopter parenting. The two may not be connected at all. They may both be consequences of something else. The h. parenting may even be a result of the psych problems. Sloppy logic.
Similarly, the fact that an adult child wants to speak with parents before accepting a job offer could be due to something as understandable and mundane as the fact that they live in a shared household, and there are transportation issues or a need to rearrange who's watching great-grandma-with-Alzheimer's during which hours (if possible). Of course, it would be more professional to simply ask for a short period to consider (and not mention parents), but that's completely understandable for people with no adult work experience to speak of yet.
I have to say that I've not seen this phenomenon myself on the college level. I'm seeing a mild version of it among middle-school students (ages 12-14) but that seems understandable as roles are changing during these years, and there are bound to be slips. Plus the kids I'm observing tend to be mildly autistic or have other issues, which skews my data.
[ 25. September 2015, 03:55: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
It happened to me! My mother-in-law, who was a high up in the education authority, interfered with the interview for my first job.
Her friend was on the interview panel. Reading between the lines she had definitely 'put in a good word' unbeknownst to me. I came out with it (always the forthright one) and said '*** is a good friend of my MIL' *** went bright red and very flustered!
I got the job anyway but I was furious!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
My mother wanted to try to get me a job after graduation. As she so helpfully said, she couldn't imagine anyone wanting to employ me on my own merits. (N.B. this was indicative of her own anxiety, not her being bitchy.)
The job I got, on my own, was far better than the one she wanted to try to get for me. She then spent the next two years fretting that the firm that employed me would realise their mistake and fire me. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
That's quite funny, though not, I guess, if you had to live through it.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654
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Posted
My wife is an Undergraduate Administrator in a University.
She has often told me of parents calling to check if their offspring are attending classes, or to appeal against a low result or an invoice/ fine preventing them from graduating.
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- insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -
Posts: 9841 | From: further up the Hill | Registered: Nov 2001
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
I'm in a similar position to Wet Kipper and, yes, helicopter parents exist. Not in huge numbers, but they certainly exist. And it's the administrative staff's task to ease them away, "little Johnny might not seem to be making many friends yet, perhaps that's because you, Johnny's mother, are still here".
Part of the problem is the gulf between what parents think they should be allowed to know - everything - and what they can be told - nothing, really nothing. It might seem OTT that a university cannot even confirm to a parent if their son/daughter attends the university but their offspring are adults and confidentiality rules apply. I'm sure folks can imagine, there are situations where Jane's father really cannot be allowed to know that Jane is here.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Is this an entirely new thing? I knew a couple of people whose parents more or less decided at an early age that they were going to go into the family business, and made decisions for them based on that. A helicopter parent might have seemed like light relief in comparison.
One student in my year at Uni arrived with his mother, who slept on the floor of his room in halls till the authorities realised and she was chucked out.
I yearned for long hair, and my mother took me to the hairdresser till I went to Uni, to make sure my hair was kept cut short. (This meant that while other Freshers were thinking Yay! Freedom! Drugs 'n' sex 'n' rock&roll! I was thinking Yay! Freedom! Shoulder-length hair!)
I was an incompetent adult when I started Uni, but I muddled through.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
FWIW, I don't think I helicopter my own two, and have actively tried to give them more choices and responsibilities than I had in my teens. I'm not defending helicoptering, just saying that it doesn't sound "new" to me - quite a lot in that infographic sounds familiar, apart from the contact with University authorities. Mum didn't do that.
The best descriptor from the infographic is that of "security guard" - Mum stopped me from doing things because she was afraid I would fail.
[ 25. September 2015, 12:47: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
There has certainly been a change in degree of parental involvement. 20-30 years ago prospective students would usually have made their own way to university interviews, unless they needed parental transport. The idea of being accompanied by one's parents would have seemed embarrassingly childish.
Now it's quite usual for parents to accompany children on interview days, and for 'events' (tours,presentations etc) to be laid on for the parents. Part of this is a result of the introduction of tuition fees, often paid by parents. If they are forking out the money, parents feel the need/right to look at where the money's going.
So even non-helicopter parents tend to be more involved than they were in the 'old days', when they would barely have heard from their offspring between the send-off in September and the return home with a bag-full of washing at Christmas.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Cue a massive clash of parenting styles in the Tor household...
"What do you mean you didn't book a ticket for me at the introductory talk?"
"Well, I thought you'd be going round the art galleries and coffee shops, not hanging around the university and bugging the hell out of our daughter while she at least pretends she's a grown-up."
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I yearned for long hair, and my mother took me to the hairdresser till I went to Uni, to make sure my hair was kept cut short. (This meant that while other Freshers were thinking Yay! Freedom! Drugs 'n' sex 'n' rock&roll! I was thinking Yay! Freedom! Shoulder-length hair!)
This is evil of me, and not to be taken seriously, but I have occasionally wondered if I should be wholly unreasonable about some minor, minor thing in LL's life (like hair) just so that when he goes through his rebellion against me, he ends up picking an area where he will do himself no.harm.at.all.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
My wife and I had to become helicopter parents for our second son. He developed anorexia nervousa in his freshman year of college. He was not able to make decisions for himself. We intervened and got him to a hospital that supposedly specialized in eating disorders. While he completed the program it did not take long for him to relapse.
But when he relapsed he was in India! Fortunately the school he was attending paid his way back to the United States. We got him back into a different program at another hospital.
A couple of days into the stay his heart stopped. Fortunately they were able to revive him.
He did well during the hospital stay but he resisted the outpatient program. The outpatient director called us and suggested we might want to get a court order to put him into receivership which would allow us to make the medical decisions for him.
I immediately drove 500 miles to meet with him and his counselor to do another intervention. During the drive, the clinic kept working on our son to get him to make the turn himself. By the time I arrived he had committed to the program.
That was over ten years ago. I have to say he has been in sustained recovery ever since. He actually married a chef who is skilled at monitoring his dietary needs. They now have a son who is 21 months old.
We also havw another son who was involved in a very bad accident. While he had been with his girl friend for five years, technically they were not married which meant we were the "next of kin." The hospital had to contact us to make the medical decisions. When we got there to the hospital, this son was very much out of it. It lasted for about a week. Finally he told the doctor the medications they were giving him was making him loopy. The doctor started to wean him off the opiates and his mind cleared.
When we had gotten to the hospital we were told to expect him to stay in the hospital for at least a month. But after his mind cleared he was discharged on the second week. He still had a long way to go in recovery but he was able to do it through outpatient work near where he lived.
He has since married his girl friend.
This son just reached a settlement with the parties that were involved.
My point is sometimes a parent has to step in.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Yours was an emergency rescue helicopter; yours was a noble endeavor. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
My husband and I used to say that parents have twenty years to make themselves superfluous.
After that, the parents give help occasionally when it's needed, but basically the son or daughter is autonomous.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Rosalind
Shipmate
# 317
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Posted
6 years ago I drove daughter no3 and her friend to an open day in Leeds - it would have been expensive and time consuming for 2 of them to get there by train. On arrival, I found the alumni association had kindly set up a 'parents' creche' with sofas, coffee and sandwiches, newspapers, etc so parents could relax and recuperate from the drive which the students could look around. When daughter and friend reappeared some hours later they told me that one dad had joined in all the tours, getting to the front and interrogating all the lecturers while his son looked miserable and self conscious, While I would have liked to look round the university and asked questions, I knew that it was my daughter's choice that mattered and anyway she would have been mad at me if I had embarrassed her like that! But at least the university had been sensible and provided a space for parents/chauffeuses to spend the day.
Posts: 141 | From: North Beds | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
When I dropped my daughter off at Stanford, the school put on a dinner for us. We sat at round tables set up on the basketball court. I shared a table with a woman who could not stop crying. Her darling boy had never lived away from home, she wept. He knew not of hangers! He was in the habit of laying his clean laundry out on the floor until he was ready to wear it! We assured her that this was what Heaven had ordained roommates for, and that he was a clever boy -- he had gotten accepted, had he not? A very few weeks of having his shirts walked on by his roommate and he would learn how to use a closet and hangers.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
The relationship/generation can make a difference. We just moved our middle child into his freshman dorm room 2 weeks ago. He's going to the same uni I work for and that daughter #1 graduated from 5 yrs ago. It turned out daughter and SIL were in town for move-in weekend, so they came along which worked out delightfully. Their presence heightened the specialness of this milestone. But they were also able to give advise, tours, etc.-- pretty much the same advise & tours I woulda given, but coming from an older sibling it came across as fun insider knowledge rather than parental nattering.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We assured her that this was what Heaven had ordained roommates for
On this subject, can anyone explain why American universities all seem to do this? It can't be space - in the UK, having your own private shoebox is the norm.
So why do Americans want to share a bedroom?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is billed as an educational thing -- they try to match up roommates for compatibility (music, etc.) but also mix up geographical areas, majors, etc. It is a chance, possibly the first one the kid will have, to really get to know someone of another race, economic strata, and so on. There may also be a money thing in there; to build or rebuild dorms is expensive and the older rooms were all designed for 2 or even 3 residents. And of course there is tradition; the freshmen especially may be obliged by school policy to live on campus in dorms. As they get older they can live off campus, or select their room mate. But at the outset, the school sets it up.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
I think some care is needed here. It's one thing for a parent to butt in and get involved on a day to day basis, it's quite another for a parent to be interested in what's going on. Eyes on but hands off kind of thing - very different from the parents who are always phoning, monopolise teachers etc.
Sadly some academic institutions apply the term "helicopter" to any parental contact; a kind of displacement to deflect their own guilt or inadequacy. It's a means of downplaying what might amount to serious concerns about a child and/or teaching.
If I am going to pay several £000's a year for my child's education (at any age - don't forget we pay for education through taxation in the Uk), then I expect a reasonable level of competence and partnership. It seems bizarre - as one or two teachers have told me - that they are above good, hones and constructive feedback from parents.
If it doesn't come up to what I'd consider adequate then like any "product" I'm going to be calling someone to task. Not a helicopter more a questioner.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
There are degrees. I agree with Exclamation Mark. Nevertheless, being a helicopter parent is obviously a bad thing.
Once again, though, as with the thread about banning sex robots, just because we don't like something, why does that mean that we think it's our job to stop other people doing it? Why do we think we're entitled to tell other people how they should live their lives? Or for that matter, to post on a thread that the sort of people we've chosen not to like today aren't likely to read anyway, telling the world what we think of them?
There was another thread a few weeks ago about banning bottled water which struck me in the same way.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
My husband and I used to say that parents have twenty years to make themselves superfluous.
After that, the parents give help occasionally when it's needed, but basically the son or daughter is autonomous.
In theory!
Our sons are 27 and 30 and the 'bank of Mum and Dad' finally closed last month!
Boogielet2 will be paying us back for some years to come (we stumped up half of his pilots training fees as we didn't want him paying extortionate interest) Boogielet1 has only just finished at university - far too many degrees than is good for him (!) ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Both are self supporting now, but it has taken a while.
Quite a few of our friends (counts ... that will be 5 couples) still have kids aged 25+ living at home.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Leorning Cniht: quote:
So why do Americans want to share a bedroom?
I always thought it was to make 'hooking up' harder.
British universities used to do this too; the original colleges in my alma mater (built in the sixties) mostly had double rooms to begin with. When these (almost immediately) went out of fashion, they were subdivided into tiny poky single bedrooms. By the time I went there in the mid-80s there were only a few double rooms left. Nowadays students in college live in the lap of luxury; the newest rooms have an ensuite shower and everyone has wireless Internet. I would have killed for an ensuite room.
Of course, this was before being gay/bisexual/trans/genderfluid was a thing, so the university authorities just assumed everyone was cisgender and heterosexual. Nowadays assigning roommates must be a lot more difficult...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Going to college far enough away that the heli-parent (hellish parent?) can't easily follow you can be a great help and relief.
In my case, the person was more a combo of a drone and a strangler fig. While they hassled me a great deal from a distance, it *was* from a distance--except during vacations. I learned to stay at/near school during vacations. (Work; house-sitting; unofficially staying in the dorm, because sometimes Resident Advisers allowed people to stay who had to be in town for an internship, work, or personal reasons.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
At first I thought the article was a joke, an example of a helicopter author who was afraid I couldn't read well and needed to have lots of pictures in place of words and plenty of bright colors to keep my interest.
I think the constant connection by cellphone has probably contributed to the idea that parents must follow every second of the child's day. It used to be that the first day of school, at age five or six, was a notable moment in the breaking of the cord, when the child went a whole day without talking to Mommy. That's all over now and teens are calling Mom between every class.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Leorning Cniht: quote:
So why do Americans want to share a bedroom?
I always thought it was to make 'hooking up' harder.
...
That's what the sock on the doorknob is for. Seriously, though, another reason for double rooms and shared washrooms is to make it easier to spot if someone is becoming withdrawn and isolated.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
There are degrees. I agree with Exclamation Mark. Nevertheless, being a helicopter parent is obviously a bad thing.
Once again, though, as with the thread about banning sex robots, just because we don't like something, why does that mean that we think it's our job to stop other people doing it? Why do we think we're entitled to tell other people how they should live their lives? Or for that matter, to post on a thread that the sort of people we've chosen not to like today aren't likely to read anyway, telling the world what we think of them?
There was another thread a few weeks ago about banning bottled water which struck me in the same way.
Yes. There are huge cultural differences at play, especially with first-generation college students whose parents may not know what is "expected" but are nonetheless thrilled to have a child progress to college. I enjoyed this article about one such family.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Living at home isn't necessarily helicopter parenting. Helicopter parenting would be parenting the 25 year old like (s)he was 12. Say, making their lunch, driving them to work, phoning their boss when they are sick. It's not about paying for everything either. It's about the level of you as parent running their lives and being involved. Attending on a sick child regardless of age isn't helicoptering either.
How about this example, randomly repeated on the interwebs, originating on Reddit:
"roommate in college would not do his laundry, ever, until his mom came to do it for him...his mom would come in and basically monopolize the dorm laundry facilities for 3 hours doing all his laundry.”
If your child wanted to take a trip to another country, would you insist on a message every day, arrange to take a trip yourself to same country, give them money to have "safer" accommodation and travel, or ask them to message you every few days or when they switch locations?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Seriously, though, another reason for double rooms and shared washrooms is to make it easier to spot if someone is becoming withdrawn and isolated.
That reasoning smells just a little post hoc to me ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
The sharing a bedroom thing just seems like an obviously sub-par arrangement to me. Now I will grant that I am deeply introverted and need to be able to shut the world out and recharge. Having to share accommodation with some random stranger seems horrific to me.
That aside, it seems impractical, too. When I was a student, I kept pretty irregular hours: sometimes I'd be out till late, sometimes I'd be tired and want an early night, and sometimes I'd be working all night in order to finish a piece of work, hand it in at 6 in the morning, and then sleep till lunchtime.
My neighbours kept similarly varied hours - but they were different hours. This works just fine when everyone has a different bedroom, but it's a disaster if you're sharing.
I would expect if you select two random students, the chance that you find that one wants to sit and work at the same time as the other wants to sleep would be pretty high. How does that work, in practice? Because it sounds sucky.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I always thought it was just a straight up finance thing- a single is a luxury to be exploited.
In other words- " why do Americans want to share? " is the wrong question- the question is," why do American Universities make a shared room the default?" Because most students I know wouldn't choose it themselves. See anecdote above,
[ 26. September 2015, 18:51: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I always thought it was just a straight up finance thing- a single is a luxury to be exploited.
I'm surprised that market forces haven't changed that. When I was applying for university places, single accommodation was typical, but some places had a mix of singles and shared rooms, and "couldn't guarantee that you would be allocated a single room if you wanted one."
So I didn't apply to any of those places.
Land prices in most of the US are much lower than most of the UK; it can't be more expensive for US universities to offer single rooms than UK ones. Here's an article talking about how there's apparently more demand for single rooms in US universities now. It's full of quotes from people who want to be forced to share a bedroom with a random stranger. It's also a bit odd that the single room on offer is a double room with one bed, rather than a smaller room.
(It can't just be a price thing. A friend's daughter has just gone off to college, and my friend has spent all summer dealing with communications from the daughter's prospective roommate's mother, along the lines of "I'm buying so-and-so this expensive monogrammed bathrobe and set of towels. Would you like to buy your daughter the same thing so that they match?" These people could afford a single - they just don't want one. I find that strange.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm pretty sure it's a finance thing, and largely a historical finance thing--most colleges with dorms built them when it was even more unaffordable than now to have everybody in single rooms (particularly if bathrooms or kitchens or both are attached) and so to make ends meet, students had to suck it up and live communally.
It's not that bad. I did it for four years (college gave every four of us the equivalent of a two bedroom apartment). You learn to accommodate each other's needs and quirks. My first year I slept in the same room as a profoundly deaf roommate, and I had to take special care not to let light leak into the room while she was sleeping, as that would wake her up right away. (bedroom door opened to corridor, which was always lit--a bit of a challenge).
If you really can't stand each other, you try to rejig housing accommodations with someone else, and then put your plan before the housing authority to get them to sign off on it. But how many students spend a lot of time at home anyway?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm pretty sure it's a finance thing, and largely a historical finance thing--most colleges with dorms built them when it was even more unaffordable than now to have everybody in single rooms (particularly if bathrooms or kitchens or both are attached) and so to make ends meet, students had to suck it up and live communally.
This, and then (as you say) the students discover along the way that it isn't that terrible, and then it becomes a kind of rite of passage.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But how many students spend a lot of time at home anyway?
It was where I used to work. Some people liked to go to the library to work, but most didn't (and there's no way the libraries had enough seating for everyone to do that!)
I spent no time at all sitting around in my room just hanging out - if I was at a loose end, I either went to the bar, or to one of the common areas to find people who were similarly at leisure. I'd imagine I spent something in the vicinity of 40 hours a week at my desk. I don't think I was unusual.
(Re en-suite rooms upthread, it was my understanding that these were driven by the conference trade. Universities make money by renting out student accommodation for conferences in the summer, but conference attendees don't want a shared bathroom down the hall. When I was an undergraduate, there was one new accommodation block that had en-suite rooms; these were 10-15% more expensive than the shared bathroom ones.)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... I would expect if you select two random students, the chance that you find that one wants to sit and work at the same time as the other wants to sleep would be pretty high. How does that work, in practice? Because it sounds sucky.
In practice, it isn't random, and a great deal of effort goes into trying to make it less sucky. Without going into too much detail, in some cases they choose someone they already know e.g. from high school for a roommate. They are also matched up by early bird vs. night owl; alcohol or not; and a bunch of other stuff. And they are put in contact with each other before the term starts.
But once the term starts? That's when the helicopter parenting has a huge impact. The precious snowflakes been shielded from conflict and disappointment, they've been told to never talk to strangers, they've done a lot of their communicating electronically, and as a result they kinda suck at talking to people and resolving arguments.
(They even find it hard to make small talk. Overheard on bus: "So I asked the guy, what's your name? And he said 'Ravi'. I said, 'My name is Jas.' And he said, 'OK' and walked away." But at least one of them knew how to start a conversation, so there's hope.)
When they do end up in conflict with each other, some of their strategies are to try to get an authority figure to tell the other person they're wrong; try to move away from the problem; or be a jerk and hope they'll go away.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes. There are huge cultural differences at play, especially with first-generation college students whose parents may not know what is "expected" but are nonetheless thrilled to have a child progress to college. I enjoyed this article about one such family.
English is my first language. I went to an internationally renowned university. In the past I've taught 1st degree students. And I don't know what quote:
intersectionalities
means either.
I suppose the advantage I have from the education I've received is that I now know enough to know that anyone who chooses to use a word like that is a kackhound,
[ 26. September 2015, 21:12: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I came across this article today, and it horrified me.
I'm glad the father came to his senses eventually, but I'm disturbed that it took him awhile.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
None of you ever stayed in youth hostels? The basic drill is a building of some sort with bunk beds, where you end up in a room with 2 or 3 others, sometimes up to 6 others. You cook in a communal kitchen and sit at communal tables for meals. Typically, you make friends pretty fast and do some things together where you are staying. I stayed in my first one in the early 1970s, and most recently in 2014- not a youth any more body, but pretend I am in spirit.
My kids have stayed overseas almost exclusively in youth hostels. And it can't be a gender thing, seeing as all my daughters have travelled alone widely and always stayed in hostels. There's nothing better than coming to some place where you have almost no idea of anything and don't speak the language and hand out the first evening with people who've been there a few days and give you tips or you make some joint plans with. The tips you receive enrich your soul and usually cause a side trip someplace you would otherwise haven't known about.
You have to do at least "functional extroversion" which is possible except for those who should definitely stay at home. Earplugs are also a good idea.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I still stay in youth hostels, ironically mostly with my grown up daughter, although my most recent trip was on my own so I was in dorms. One night was in a 4 bed dorm and the other had 16 beds.
These days the UK hostels offer family or private rooms as well as dorms. When I'm with my daughter we often share a two bed room.
(I get more holiday than my PhD daughter, so to meet up at Christmas, Easter and another weekend away this year, we stayed in hostels, nearer to her than me. She couldn't get down to meet me on Christmas Eve before Christmas transport shut down, and I have my limits of how often I will sleep on her student residence floor.)
And I had to share a room one year in student residences when I was a student, otherwise it was single rooms. My daughter's residences have mostly been a single room in a shared flat, with either shared bathrooms or en suite shower room, always with a communal kitchen / living room. The flats have varied from 6 bedrooms to 8 bedrooms.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I cannot sleep when in a room with other people.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Summer Camp anyone? Usually up to 10 people in a crappy little cabin with a kybo (outhouse) down a trail. A Canadian thing perhaps. Many Anglican dioceses own lake front property run camps all summer, for all ages. I was a counsellor as a young person for 7 summers, and a camp director for 3 in my rather unending university educational career. Strangers thrown together to eat, sleep, and do outdoor activities together, and put food on the ends of sticks and hold them in the fire, and sing many songs. Nothing like a two hole outhouse for deep religious conversations. I have often wondered about Jesus and the disciples. Did they 'take their ease' together. I only recall one biblical episode and one instruction related to such matters.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
no prophet's flag is set so...: Summer Camp anyone?
Plenty.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
None of you ever stayed in youth hostels? The basic drill is a building of some sort with bunk beds, where you end up in a room with 2 or 3 others, sometimes up to 6 others.
Sure - I've stayed in youth hostels, and I've camped in groups, and gone on school trips and the like.
And it basically sucks.
I stayed in a youth hostel because it was cheap, I didn't have much money, and it was a place to stay, that allowed me to travel cheaply. It's something I could tolerate for a week or two, when I wasn't doing anything particularly demanding.
Once I could afford a room of my own, that's what I got.
And yes, I could wear earplugs and an eyemask, but those things are uncomfortable. Walls are much more comfortable, because I don't need to wear them.
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
In practice, it isn't random, and a great deal of effort goes into trying to make it less sucky.
IME, people change a lot when they leave home. Some people who used to be early birds become night owls when they discover the possibilities offered by the late night social scene. People who didn't use to be early birds take up some kind of early morning sporting activity, and have larkness forced upon them. People who don't drink try a drink, and decide they like it.
Maybe there's a rare person somewhere who becomes quieter when they go away to university, but it's probably unlikely.
So I'd question how well an 18-year-old school leaver is able to describe the kind of lifestyle that he expects to live in six months time.
And really, why would I want to bother? If I'm going away to college and learning to live on my own, and I'm studying things that are significantly more taxing than anything I've done at school, why would I want to burden myself with the additional stress of dealing with someone else in my living space?
Shared kitchens, shared bathrooms, common recreation areas - those things I get. Shared bedrooms, not so much.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Also Guide camps with either a tent for the leaders or room in a cabin for the leaders. The girls get to share four to a tent or four or six to a cabin room. If the narrow boat hadn't broken, same deal, adult leaders in one cabin, girls six to a cabin.
(Adults are not allowed to share the same room or tent with the children under safeguarding guidelines. Young leaders also get to share rooms or tents separately.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I have often wondered about Jesus and the disciples. Did they 'take their ease' together.
I expect so. It was certainly common Roman practice.
The idea of showering with a bunch of friends or strangers, or shitting with them, doesn't bother me. Sleeping does.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I suppose the advantage I have from the education I've received is that I now know enough to know that anyone who chooses to use a word like that is a kackhound,
You don't know what "intersectionalities" means, but you're sure one who uses it is a "kackhound"? I suppose this attitude could be a result of your education, but it's not obvious to me how it's an advantage.
As it happens, a Google search is helpful on "intersectionalities", but not on "kackhound" - does it have any interesting connotations relevant to this application, or are you just using it as a general term of abuse?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I always thought it was just a straight up finance thing- a single is a luxury to be exploited.
I'm surprised that market forces haven't changed that. When I was applying for university places, single accommodation was typical, but some places had a mix of singles and shared rooms, and "couldn't guarantee that you would be allocated a single room if you wanted one."
So I didn't apply to any of those places.
Land prices in most of the US are much lower than most of the UK; it can't be more expensive for US universities to offer single rooms than UK ones. Here's an article talking about how there's apparently more demand for single rooms in US universities now. It's full of quotes from people who want to be forced to share a bedroom with a random stranger. It's also a bit odd that the single room on offer is a double room with one bed, rather than a smaller room.
(It can't just be a price thing. A friend's daughter has just gone off to college, and my friend has spent all summer dealing with communications from the daughter's prospective roommate's mother, along the lines of "I'm buying so-and-so this expensive monogrammed bathrobe and set of towels. Would you like to buy your daughter the same thing so that they match?" These people could afford a single - they just don't want one. I find that strange.
As mentioned above, it's just the default. I didn't really realize it was different elsewhere. I had a roommate throughout college, my older kids had roommates, etc. As mentioned, there are usually other options available for junior and seniors, but fresh and sophmores are expected to live in dorms, and all dorms are set up with a default of at least 2 per room. Usually other spaces are available for study (library) or entertainment (student lounge) when schedules don't mesh, but that doesn't solve all the problems obviously.
In terms of market forces-- more and more of our undergrads are first-generation college students, coming here on a shoestring, and accumulating massive quantities of debt, so even a small bump in costs is out of the question. The real game-changer has been more of our students living at home and commuting. The admin at the univ where I teach are bummed by this and trying to find ways (often fighting ingrained family-oriented cultures) to induce them to live on campus (and raising more and more $$ to build more and more dorms), but I tend to think it's a good thing, and a sensible way to keep costs/debt down.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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