|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: OMG! There's no Jesus on this coffee cup! ATTACK! ATTACK!
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Oh dear Jesus God, what the fuck is wrong with people? A fatuous airhead who considers himself a "radical" Christian has launched a war on Starbucks for taking the ornaments and tree branches off their Christmastide coffee cups. Ornaments and branches of course being universally-recognized symbols for the Incarnation.
"There's no Christmas without Christ" he says. Well there sure seems to be no sign of Christ in his Christmas. You know, that Christ who was forgiving and cared about taking care of people.
AUGH!
Discuss.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
|
Posted
Others might call him something other than radical - it's Josh after all.
--------------------
The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
I was not familiar with Josh before the War on Starbucks broke. What a horrible witness for Christ.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
|
Posted
But it's not Christmas yet - not even Advent. it's only November!
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Hmmm. Must be slow news day.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
The things some people find to get wound up about amaze me. I might get wound up by Starbucks for all sorts of reasons, but the fact they have not put cheap crappy Christmasy symbols on their coffee cups is not one.
I think there are all sorts of things that I might get fussy about for Christmas, and the commercialisation of it, but this is not top of my list.
That is not radical Christianity. That is pathetic headline-grabbing conservatism. If you want to be radical, there are a whole lot of other things that need to be challenged.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
Make people angry, takes their mind off the other stuff?
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Sure worked here.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ann
Curious
# 94
|
Posted
Hang on! I thought they were supposed to be boycotting Starbucks because of its support for same-sex marriage - and now they're supposed to order lots of coffees and say that their name is "Merry Christmas" to make the staff acknowledge Christmas? Starbucks is being boycotted all the way to the bank!
--------------------
Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
So apparently the biggest problem with Christmas these days is that large corporations aren't commercializing it enough?
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
Those pridefully pious Christians who get their panties in a knot over removing Christmas trappings from commercial and public displays would be mortified to know that the equally pious English and American Puritans were the ones who began the "War on Christmas" in the first place, for theological reasons. (And they were far more successful at it, too.)
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/11/24/the-pilgrims-war-on-christmas/
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
Ok, first of all, the cup is still red and green.
Second of all, from what I understand, the graphics removed from the cup were those of snowflakes and snowmen. Kerygmaniacs, you are going to have to remind me the place in the Bible where little Jesus built a snowman, or had a jolly snowball fight with Joseph.
Third, I am willing to bet the decision had nothing to do with avoiding Christmas-- I am sure they are still pimping out the holiday albums and the mugs, canisters, and cupholders to beat the band-- but everything to do with economics. "Stevens, the cup is already red and green. Why are we devoting such a huge chunk of our budget to add cheesy snowflake graphics to a cup we will only be able to distribute for a couple months? Simple red and green is far classier anyway."
Third--as Mousethief said elsewhere Christians, in other parts of the world are facing actual knife point persecution. Throwing a freaking temper tantrum because someone outside of an actual church does not honor religious holidays? That's a war? People having bombs dropped in their backyards and their churches burned to the ground are going to have a hard time seeing the comparison.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
Maybe we should promote separating Christ from the commercial holiday mis-named "christmas."
You want snowflakes and ornaments and the biggest shopping season of the year, fine, but don't pretend that's got anything to do with the wonder and challenge of incarnation.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
|
Posted
As Kelly points out, they have never mentioned Christmas on their cups, or had even as much as a proper Christmas Tree on their cups. Some folks just want to be martyred. I'll provide the sprigs of holly to plunge into their chests.
--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
Myself, I'm rather more peeved that Starbucks continues to be one of those companies that continues to successfully avoid its social duty to pay a fair amount of taxes on its huge profits. Such companies collectively impoverish the British economy alone to the tune of tens of billions a year and our government's collusion with them is a crime of mind-buggering proportions against the poor, the sick, the disabled, and the old.
If I was going to scribble anything on a coffee cup for the attention of Starbucks' bosses, it would be "Pay your fucking taxes, you vicious capitalist bastards."
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
Hear freaking hear.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Third--as Mousethief said elsewhere Christians, in other parts of the world are facing actual knife point persecution. Throwing a freaking temper tantrum because someone outside of an actual church does not honor religious holidays? That's a war? People having bombs dropped in their backyards and their churches burned to the ground are going to have a hard time seeing the comparison.
That was exactly my reaction when I read about this. These poor persecuted Christians who can't get snowflakes on the Starbucks cups should have a chat with some of the refugees fleeing for their lives.
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
As Kelly points out, they have never mentioned Christmas on their cups, or had even as much as a proper Christmas Tree on their cups. Some folks just want to be martyred. I'll provide the sprigs of holly to plunge into their chests.
I'm gonna be the bitch who asks where in the Bible conifers covered with hanging balls were a specifically prescribed sacrament.
Yes, I understand that decorated pine trees have a specific devotional message in European Christian traditions but that's just the point-- celebrating snow on the assigned birthday of a man who probably never saw snow, celebrating the flora and fauna of the Steppes rather than the desert, and incorporating bizarre idol worship of some beared white guy who didn't even exist in christianity until 1000 years or so after the fact. The people moaning about the war on Christmas are moaning about having something other than their version of Christmas visible. You don't see these jerks taking to the streets demanding publicly funded Nochebuena parades.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
(Sieg-- preaching to the choir, I know but that was a good place to slide that comment.)
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
On a local level, all this is really going to do is make the day much harder for the baristas--who have no responsibility for what the company puts on its stupid cups.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
For real!
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
If Starbucks claimed to be a Christian organisation (whatever that could possibly mean for a business) we could hold up the plumb line to judge their claim to faith by their actions:
- Do all the farmers who grow their coffee, chocolate and other ingredients got a fair price?
- Do all those farmers etc respect the environment, pay their workers a living wage, deal fairly with their suppliers?
- Do Starbucks pay all their staff at least the living wage? Do they get adequate leave, sick allowances, medical insurance, etc?
- Does the company pay their taxes for profit made in the countries where they have shops? "Render unto Caesar" and all that
- Do they support the needs of the communities where they have their shops? Do they provide coffee to the homeless? Offer jobs to the disadvantaged?
If the answer to those questions is "Yes" all the way down, then maybe we can see if they put Nativity scenes on their cups at Christmas, Resurrection scenes at Easter and multi-lingual gospel messages at Pentecost.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
|
Posted
Oh for crying out loud this is the most absurd controversy ever. Don't people who get involved in this sort of thing have any real problems to complain about that they have to make up reasons for being offended as silly as this? I'd love to live a life that uncomplicated. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
This sounds like a good idea for a Hallmark movie. A fellow goes in a coffee shop, notices a lack of Christmas spirit displayed on their coffee cups, tells the beautiful waitress about it and finds out she is upset about it, too. They convince the store to change policies and it ends with the couple becoming engaged to be married and as they start kissing each other the snow begins to fall.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I'm gonna be the bitch who asks where in the Bible conifers covered with hanging balls were a specifically prescribed sacrament.
My lover meets me among the cedars,
Yea among the trees of Lebanon.
For lo, he comes prepared to delight me
With hanging balls he meets me there
--Second Song of Solomon 1:1-2
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
...
WELL, HE PROBABLY WASN'T BORN IN THE WINTER! SO THERE!
(Song of Solomon. Har Har. )
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
(Fuck. Now I wanna go to Jerusalem and play in the snow. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) )
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
So did Jesus plop down in the snow and make snow angels? And did they come alive, like the clay birds in that apocryphal story?
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
God bless you for that little ray of sunshine...
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
So did Jesus plop down in the snow and make snow angels? And did they come alive, like the clay birds in that apocryphal story?
I was trying to think of a joke about snowmen along those lines.
Perhaps our Christmas Village needs a Snow Golem?
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
|
Posted
I really needed that little laugh today. What a warrior for Jesus, carrying his gun to piss off Starbucks and saying his name is Merry Christmas.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh dear Jesus God, what the fuck is wrong with people? A fatuous airhead who considers himself a "radical" Christian has launched a war on Starbucks for taking the ornaments and tree branches off their Christmastide coffee cups. Ornaments and branches of course being universally-recognized symbols for the Incarnation.
"There's no Christmas without Christ" he says. Well there sure seems to be no sign of Christ in his Christmas. You know, that Christ who was forgiving and cared about taking care of people.
AUGH!
Discuss.
I love the fact that the sponsored links immediately underneath that article are mostly get-rich-quick schemes of the 'Mom from the same city as the reader's IP address shares her secret to making £400 per hour at home watching cat videos' type.
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
Anyone else old enough to remember when we complained about money-grubbing corporations ruining our sacred celebration of Christmas with all their crass commercialism? Now we complain if they don't.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
"We"?
I'm pretty sure people like this guy never complained about the over-commercialization of Christmas. Criticism of consumerism is largely a left-wing concern, which isn't usually associated with people who boast about how they carry guns into coffee shops.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I'm pretty sure people like this guy never complained about the over-commercialization of Christmas.
Yes and no. They complain about the "secularization" of Christmas, which if they could but see it goes hand in hand with the commercialization. They are flip sides of the same coin.
But jokers like this guy are perfectly fine with people selling tree ornaments made of nails to look like the Cross, or pine boughs on coffee cups, or 50% off sales at the Bible Bookshop, or unwrapping gifts on Christmas morning instead of going to church. Because they don't recognize that those things are, in fact, a product of the secularization of Christmas.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Surely it goes further than that: these folk have either failed to question the consumer ideology or have actively bought into it.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Surely it goes further than that: these folk have either failed to question the consumer ideology or have actively bought into it.
Oh I agree. They have actively bought into it, because they have so identified a fantasy of 1950's American Christmas, perhaps as extrapolated from popular songs and movies, with the Christian feast of the Nativity, that they cannot distinguish the two. Part of the American Civil Religion.
Although you probably have nutcases of this variety in other countries, we seem to abound with them. Like the Old Willow in Tom Bombadil's forest, America is the center from which the evil radiates.
Although I say that as one who probably shouldn't. St. Clive wrote a devastating essay about the commercialization/secularization of Christmas back in 1954.
[ 08. November 2015, 14:59: Message edited by: mousethief ]
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
"We"?
I'm pretty sure people like this guy never complained about the over-commercialization of Christmas. Criticism of consumerism is largely a left-wing concern, which isn't usually associated with people who boast about how they carry guns into coffee shops.
No, back in the day, at least in the US, you'd also hear conservative Christians complaining-- not so much out of the kinds of critical concerns about consumerism/ consumption that you hear today from the left, but simply that all the plastic Santas and cutesy elves populating the shelves of every department store and gas station were undermining a sacred and holy celebration. That's what "keep Christ in Christmas" used to mean.
While it very often had a grumpy "get off my lawn!"/"no fun of any kind!"/"you don't get to celebrate MY holiday" tenor to it, at least there was a kernel of truth-- at least compared to the current faux-persecution complex.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I'm pretty sure people like this guy never complained about the over-commercialization of Christmas.
Yes and no. They complain about the "secularization" of Christmas, which if they could but see it goes hand in hand with the commercialization.
But you see, I think there's a substantial population like this guy who never complained about secularization either. He's probably fine with anything that looks like public validation of his beliefs, and isn't terribly bothered by concerns about sincerity and authenticity.
There probably is some overlap between those who complain about the secularization of Christmas and those who complain about the absence of public symbols. I'm not denying that your criticism has a target - I just don't think it's this guy. (For one thing, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who uses words like "secularization". Google me wrong if you can!)
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
Agreed. I wasn't saying that THIS guy was on both sides-- I'm saying the same GROUP of people/ theological camp that used to complain about commercialization is now the same group of people (or their descendants) complaining about the lack of commercialization and even wailing that the lack of commercialization is somehow religious persecution. I'm sure the Syrian Christians weep for them and their un-decorated coffee cups.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
But you see, I think there's a substantial population like this guy who never complained about secularization either. He's probably fine with anything that looks like public validation of his beliefs, and isn't terribly bothered by concerns about sincerity and authenticity.
Of course he doesn't use the word "secularization." It probably has more syllables than his short-term memory is capable of juggling. But he uses the phrase "keep Christ in Christmas." For him the issue is not layering stuff on (trees, Santa, Black Friday sales, etc.) but taking the one thing out (mentions of Jesus, however insincere).
As you say, the sincerity of it seems to mean little to them. As long as there's a creche on the lawn of Town Hall, that's good, whether or not anybody who works inside the building believes it.
But I think lurking behind the scenes, the real issue is that (in these people's minds) everybody DOES believe it, except for a small number of atheist elites who happen to have power over what gets displayed on the Town Hall lawn. These evil atheists are preventing the good, God-loving Americans (or Brits or Australians or whatever) from keeping Christ in Christmas out of nefarious ends that they masquerade as fairness to Jews and shit like that.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
"We"?
I'm pretty sure people like this guy never complained about the over-commercialization of Christmas. Criticism of consumerism is largely a left-wing concern, which isn't usually associated with people who boast about how they carry guns into coffee shops.
Actually, there is a bit of overlap between left-wing and right-wing rhetoric around cultural issues. I sometimes joke to myself that the only difference is that left-wingers think that throwing the word "corporatized" into the critique somehow distinguishes them from the mouth-breathing rednecks who object on "moral" grounds.
An example of this is teenaged fahsion supposedly being too sexual. I've listened to progressive parents go into convulsions trying to explain how, when THEY raise concerns about their daughters wearing(for example) low-riding jeans to school, it's not the same as when bible-thumping prudes raise the same concerns.
"Well, it's not because I'm worried about revealing clothes, you understand, it's just that I'm concerned kids are having their fashion choices defined by corporate media images, rather than making an autonnomous decision about what to wear."
Which is a fair enough distinction, though I suspect that if their daughters were wearing baggy trousers to school, they wouldn't worry so much, if at all, about whether or not it was an autonomous decision.
[ 08. November 2015, 15:17: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But he uses the phrase "keep Christ in Christmas." For him the issue is not layering stuff on (trees, Santa, Black Friday sales, etc.) but taking the one thing out (mentions of Jesus, however insincere).
After some thought I think this doesn't explain enough. Why is taking pine boughs off a coffee cup equivalent to taking Christ out of Christmas? Some explanation of this mindset should be attempted.
I think that the accretion of things into Christmas -- Santa, elves, Rudolph, the Little Drummer Boy, Christmas trees, and on and on and on -- makes them PART of Jesus somehow. They have become firmly affixed to Jesus in such a way that if you take the pine boughs off the cup, it's taking Christ out of Christmas. Because "Christ" is this undifferentiated lump that contains everything that has gone into the making and marketing of Christmas in English-speaking lands for the last 100 or more years. (Well, since Dickens.)
It's idolatry in its most basic and literal sense: substituting something other than God for God. The baby in the manger has been fused with Santa and trees and presents and turkey (or goose) dinner. They are functionally indistinguishable. Taking any one of them away is taking Christ out of Christmas.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Agreed. I wasn't saying that THIS guy was on both sides-- I'm saying the same GROUP of people/ theological camp that used to complain about commercialization is now the same group of people (or their descendants) complaining about the lack of commercialization and even wailing that the lack of commercialization is somehow religious persecution.
What you said was "we" - which is kind of weird unless you're actually identifying with that group, which I'm pretty sure you're not. (And seriously - "or their descendants"? Why not just call them "all the people I don't like"?)
But I don't think it's even substantially the same group of people. I highly doubt that this guy (for instance) ever complained about commercialization.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
I think that take is probably closer to what's really going on, MT.
You could probably widen the focus a little bit more; it includes obsession with the familiar ornamentation of childhood memories, as you note - but somehow carrying guns(!) also gets mixed up in there. I don't know what else you might find tied up together in that guy's noggin, and I'm not sure I want to know.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Is it just me, or do others think that the logo on the 'Christless' Starbuck cup actually looks like Our Blessed Lady, Queen of Heaven, Virgin Mother of Our Lord, Co-Redemptrix et al ?
I'll get me coat....
I.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I think that take is probably closer to what's really going on, MT.
You could probably widen the focus a little bit more; it includes obsession with the familiar ornamentation of childhood memories, as you note - but somehow carrying guns(!) also gets mixed up in there. I don't know what else you might find tied up together in that guy's noggin, and I'm not sure I want to know.
I think it's probably a combination of a couple of things...
The guy is heavily into the "Christian" routine of complaining every year about how irreligious Christmas has become, and basically walks around looking for targets.
As Mousthief noted, a lot of things have been conflated into the general idea of Christmas, and this guy has sort of passively absorbed it all into his head, while still maintaining the inappropriate label "Christian Holiday" over the whole promiscuous mishmash of imagery.
He's basically the real-life version of the apocryphal hick yelling "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!!" Granted, that one involves an actual false belief, but one that emerges from a similar intellectual trajectory...
"Jesus = America = English"
Or in the case under discussion...
"Jesus = Christmas = holly on the coffee cups"
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
