Thread: Thinking about one's own death Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
I find myself reflecting on my own mortality in light of a number of deaths recently. I wonder where is the line between healthy awareness of one's own death and a morbid fascination with it.
 
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
I suppose one might say that the line is drawn at the point where you find yourself spending more time thinking about the how and when of dying than the enjoyment of the life you still have. Interesting question.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Well, once you've crossed it a few times you get a better balance
That is my experience
 
Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on :
 
Sensible to sort out the practicalities - make sure your executor knows he/she is going to have to do the paperwork etc. Tell them what you want - full scale choral service or quiet and quick at cemetery/crematorium, flowers/no flowers, who has what of personal items etc.

And then get on with life. However much/little you think you might have.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
One of my New Years Day chores is to update a document I call "My Affairs."

It's a listing of end-of-life directives and instructions for funeral, cremation and disposition of ashes. It's also a listing of my computer login and password, bank accounts, insurance policies and debts. Finally, it's a list of whom (other than family and relatives) to notify.

After updating, I distribute it to all family members.

Morbid? Perhaps. But practical.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
It is an interesting question, but I don't think there is a correct answer. I know people who never think about death, and others who think about it a lot, and I would hate to tell either one that they are wrong.

So much depends on one's individual circumstances, personality, and so on.

I suppose morbidity comes in when someone longs for death, but that is not an easy issue to deal with. But to think about death a lot is not in itself morbid, I would say, in fact, it might represent a valuable turn in someone's life.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
Seems to me that there are two possible angles of discussion here, and it isn't entirely clear which the OP is talking about.

There is the whole thing about planning one's funeral. Which I personally think is an imposition on those left behind - the funeral should surely be something for them not for the deceased. That said, I do see that it might be helpful, but I will be ignoring almost all requests if/when I ever have to arrange a funeral for my close relatives.

The other aspect, I think, is more interesting to discuss - namely the awareness of one's own mortality and inevitability of death. In general, there may well be good reasons for most of us to spend more time thinking about it - getting our finances in sensible order, contemplating the complicated loose-ends we might leave behind if we suddenly die, remembering to tell our loved ones that they are our loved ones, trying not to leave broken relationships in a broken state and so on.

Too much might lead to paralysis.. but possibly many would be more humble, generous and kind if they thought that any given day could be their last.
 
Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
Is this, I wonder, an age thing? At least in part? I am of an age when death is probably still a fair way off, so I do not much think about it. I would think that maybe if I was much older, and death seemed around the corner, it might be on my mind more.

Of course I am sure some 90 year olds think they are going to live forever, and some 14 year olds think about death all the time.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
We have lost four out of five parents in the last few years and the 'last one standing' (Mr Boog's stepmum) is 95 and fading. I think this is what gets us considering our own deaths, losing others who are close to us.

My Dad and Mr Boogs Dad both died very suddenly after a short illness and in hospital. My Mum and Mr Boog's Mum died very, very slowly and at home. Surprisingly, I would choose the latter. It was a peaceful time and pain free (thanks to excellent modern medicine) Hospitals don't seem to want to allow people to die and they interfere too much in a very natural, gentle process. All those tubes and oxygen, feeding tubes and such are a silliness when all the body is trying to do is shut down natutrally.

When Mum was dying I put this on the 'Aging parents' thread. It describes a natural death, the last stages of life. I found/find it very reassuring.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I find myself reflecting on my own mortality in light of a number of deaths recently. I wonder where is the line between healthy awareness of one's own death and a morbid fascination with it.
If it becomes a preoccupation that colours everything, then try to switch off and do something lighter.

I've also been reflecting on my own mortality, but find it can add perspective. Like Galilit, I've had my own brushes with mortality and I came out of one thinking about a former annoyance: do I want to take that into the dark with me? Do I want my last days to be coloured by that?

Life is short: make the most of it while you can. We've all lost people we love: live the way they would want you to live, not with denial and regrets and constant tears, but enjoy the good things, honour their emotional and moral legacies to you. You won't always succeed, but the important thing is to try.

The world is a far more dangerous place than it was. I think of this every time I cross London, in and out of major railway stations, which are guarded by armed police: but if your number is up, it's up and there's nothing you can do about it. Live your life as best you can until then.

And yes I have made my will. Always do that if there is anyone or any cause you care about.
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:


There is the whole thing about planning one's funeral. Which I personally think is an imposition on those left behind - the funeral should surely be something for them not for the deceased. That said, I do see that it might be helpful, but I will be ignoring almost all requests if/when I ever have to arrange a funeral for my close relatives.
But surely it would help to know what the deceased would have liked. After all, you'll be in mourning; will it really make you feel better to completely disregard what they would have liked? Perhaps it depends on the nature of the relationship you had with them.

OTOH, I can understand the need to put aside requests that are too complicated or too expensive to fulfil.

In my case, I'm aware that the kinds of funerals that are popular in my background might be too expensive for me or close family members to afford. And should I live a long life, the old women who kept the cultural traditions going will be long gone. So who knows what kind of funeral I'll have? I think my younger brother will eventually appreciate it if I give him a list of hymns and readings, though - less for him to think about when the time comes.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
... There is the whole thing about planning one's funeral. Which I personally think is an imposition on those left behind - the funeral should surely be something for them not for the deceased. That said, I do see that it might be helpful, but I will be ignoring almost all requests if/when I ever have to arrange a funeral for my close relatives. ...
Mr Cheesy, IMHO that is wrong on both counts. If the deceased person has expressed their wishes and those wishes are practical and achievable, we owe it to them to follow their wishes. Nor is it a wholesome approach to say this is about me or us, rather than about them.
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I suppose an awareness of the reality of ones own death is a healthy state to be in. To realise that you are not immortal, that you will decease at some point, is positive, because it tends to give a perspective that is helpful.

One thing about the various peoples for whom ancestor memory is important (including Chinese ancestor veneration, Jewish ancestor appreciation and African veneration) helps to keep in mind that all the great people before us have died, and we will too, but that our family will remember us. I think it gives a good sense of mortality, and our place in history (which is, eventually, none). Maybe we have lost that in much of Western society.

The other side, where the only thing that occupies our thoughts is our own death, or where this moves to planning it (rather than just for it), that is dangerously obsessional. Obviously, in some circumstances, that may be a short term natural response, but more than very short term, is a dangerous path to be on.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Is this, I wonder, an age thing? At least in part? I am of an age when death is probably still a fair way off, so I do not much think about it. I would think that maybe if I was much older, and death seemed around the corner, it might be on my mind more.

Of course I am sure some 90 year olds think they are going to live forever, and some 14 year olds think about death all the time.
I think that's right, in the main. Young people probably feel immortal in a sense, and hence are able to do risky things. Middle-aged people become more cautious, as they begin to realize their mortality.

This seems quite a natural development. But you also get people who are plagued by thoughts of death from an early age - I am just reading the biog of Sylvia Plath who was like this. Unfortunately, I don't think that her carers could deal with it, and her obsession became reality.
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
My father has said that he wants a small, close-family-only funeral, i.e. 8 people present.

I have made it quite clear to him that the last thing I will be doing in the immediate aftermath of his death is explaining to assorted blameless members of the wider family that Dad didn't regard them as close enough to attend his funeral.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
There's a spiritual exercise that asks one to think about it.

I also need to update my will and funeral instructions.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Such morbid threads bring me to realize that I need to update my will.

I have already begun discussions to have a local roller derby team be the servers at my wake. Such planning exercises bring me much agreeable satisfaction. Shipmates are, of course, welcome to attend.
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I plan to have the full works at mine, including having my coffin piped out to the tune "Dark Island".

Any Shipmates who wanted to experience the foretaste of Heaven that is the sound of bagpipes in a small rural church would be most welcome.

[Big Grin]
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
hosting/

I realise the temptation to drift into "what I'd like done at my funeral" is hard to resist here, but if it's indulged in, this thread will likely be sent, appropriately enough, to Heaven.

/hosting
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Mr Cheesy, IMHO that is wrong on both counts. If the deceased person has expressed their wishes and those wishes are practical and achievable, we owe it to them to follow their wishes. Nor is it a wholesome approach to say this is about me or us, rather than about them.
Enoch, I appreciate that other views are available, but I dispute that my understanding is "wrong", it is just different to yours.

The dead are dead. Nothing that happens at a funeral makes any difference to them. They might have gotten a modicum of comfort in planning their own funeral, but the plans may themselves be entirely inappropriate for those left behind. I do not believe I owe anything to the deceased at the funeral, except space to enable grieving of the bereaved. Hence I do not and will not feel constrained by the views of the dead and will not be held captive by people who wish to try to exert control over those left behind even in death.

And I find your comment about what is or isn't wholesome quite inappropriate. The funeral is most definitely not about the dead.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But surely it would help to know what the deceased would have liked. After all, you'll be in mourning; will it really make you feel better to completely disregard what they would have liked? Perhaps it depends on the nature of the relationship you had with them.
I think it is a modern fashion to think one can plan things right down to determining the make-up of ones own funeral. And I think it is wrong to think the funeral is about the dead, as I have said above.

It isn't about disregarding, but it is about recognising that some things which are planned are not appropriate. As the dead are not going to be affected, there is no need to take their wishes as anything other than a request or pointer.

quote:
OTOH, I can understand the need to put aside requests that are too complicated or too expensive to fulfil.
It isn't about cost (or at least not just about cost) it can also be about self perception which ignores the reality of the experience of bereavement.

For example I have on a few occasions been to "celebration" funerals where the enforced mood was upbeat. I have noticed several relatives at times struggling with this. If a relative stated that they wanted this, but I believed this was not what the bereaved actually needed, I would be completely wrong in inflicting it upon everyone.

There are various other things that I can imagine other people I know might want to plan for their funeral that I would not necessarily agree with.

Assuming of course that I was in some kind of position to influence the funeral.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Is this really going to turn into a discussion about funerals? Bloody hell.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
"Integrity versus Despair" is Erik Erikson's end of life stage of lifespan development, preceeded by "Generativity versus Stagnation". It makes for good understanding. Many links on the 'net.

Some of the transition between the two seems to be that your kids really don't want or need any direction from you as they enter their late 20s and early 30s. While the deaths if parents may provoke some of this, when like aged friends begin to die in their middle age seemed more challenging to me.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Yes, I think people usually accept parents' deaths, as somehow part of the natural order, (unless they are young), but friends' deaths seem to really drill into us. Personally, I find it shattering.
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think it is wrong to think the funeral is about the dead, as I have said above.

It isn't about disregarding, but it is about recognising that some things which are planned are not appropriate. As the dead are not going to be affected, there is no need to take their wishes as anything other than a request or pointer.
Ah, I think the difference between us is cultural.

I can't imagine that the many Christians I know who passed away last year would have made inappropriate requests, or requests that the bereaved would have founded upsetting or offensive.

Many British families are probably less united in terms of what they deem to be acceptable, but I haven't come across that myself.
 
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I think people usually accept parents' deaths, as somehow part of the natural order, (unless they are young), but friends' deaths seem to really drill into us. Personally, I find it shattering.
Yes, it certainly makes for clear thinking about the reality of death when ones' circle of contact starts to shrink. I find it encouraging though that we in the tap group have an average age of 76 and we're still going strong! We're realists and have no illusions about our future.
 
Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on :
 
A few years ago I was undergoing tests for what could have been a speedy and fatal cancer, from which my own mother had recently died (as in a couple of months before). The most helpful thing I did in the weeks of tests and diagnosis (of a benign, though painful tumour) was to take an afternoon, on holiday with the family, when I didn't feel up to anything strenuous. I sat in the sun and simply thought about the possibility that life might soon be over for me. It turns out there is all the difference in the world between knowing that you will die someday - we all know that, or should do - and knowing that there is a day when you will die.

My day was not imminent, as this post proves. But one day it will be, and having faced it once, I will know better how to face it again. Knowing that, I can put it aside and get on with life in this wonderful world.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
Having worked in a couple of church offices, I found that if the deceased had expressed any wishes about their services it made it easier for the family. They're grieving and often unable to think very clearly, and it's a big help to them to know that Grandpa always loved "For All the Saints" (or whatever) and wanted it at his funeral. Knowing their wishes doesn't mean they have to follow them, but it gives them some ideas, and perhaps some comfort.
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This is especially true if you have a strong opinion about what your obsequies should be like. If you want to be shot off into lower Earth orbit in a rocket, do tell somebody. Otherwise it's not going to happen. Many people cannot bear to contemplate the subject. They're not going to get any say.
 
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
One of my New Years Day chores is to update a document I call "My Affairs."

It's a listing of end-of-life directives and instructions for funeral, cremation and disposition of ashes. It's also a listing of my computer login and password, bank accounts, insurance policies and debts. Finally, it's a list of whom (other than family and relatives) to notify.

After updating, I distribute it to all family members.

Morbid? Perhaps. But practical.
What a good idea. I shall get on to it asap.

As for funerals:
The Grandad had made no plans and the funeral was a tribute to his person, his life and works
But I have chosen hymns and readings, I suppose as a final statement of who I am and where I stand. Rather mixed actually (Donne's 'Death, be not proud' alongside Henley's 'Margarita sororae'?)
Like Woody Allen, I'm not afraid of death, I just don't want to be there when it happens.
Or at least, give me another ten or so reasonably comfortable years. Dad (93) wanted to beat his uncle (92).

GG
 
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
I think it's important to live each day in full consciousness that it might be our last. That is not to suggest that we eat, drink and be merry while we can, but rather to suggest that we still have the opportunity to serve God until our very last breath, to make a positive difference to the world for the sake of all. If we can do nothing else, we can continue to pray for other people.

Ref the op, a morbid fascination would imply that there is more to think through concerning death, perhaps as to whether or not there is an afterlife, and/or whether death is something to be afraid of.
 
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
I originally intended to talk about our existential feelings about death but discussing concrete things such as funerals and wills might be a way of establishing some amount of control.

I recently registered to be an organ donor after I die. I figured that once I'm gone, if my organs can help someone else, I would rather them be of some use than buried or cremated. Even though I'm only 32, I'm also thinking of writing my will as well. Perhaps my awareness of mortality is fueling these conversations in my head.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The dead are dead. Nothing that happens at a funeral makes any difference to them.... The funeral is most definitely not about the dead.
A requiem mass helps their progress through Purgatory.
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I went into shock through blood loss in July 1998. I know that if the hospital hadn't been brilliant and pulled me back, my last thoughts before going into shock would have been literally my last thoughts. My last feelings would have been literally my last feelings. And it was all good then - very peaceful and drifty and golden. If, when I die, it's like that again, it won't be a bad experience.

I haven't been afraid of death since then.

(The "golden" haze was apparently my eyes not functioning properly through the drop in blood pressure etc.)
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The dead are dead. Nothing that happens at a funeral makes any difference to them.... The funeral is most definitely not about the dead.
A requiem mass helps their progress through Purgatory.
I've often wondered about this. Images of St Peter speaking through the bars "Hey! Good news! Another three masses mentioned you so you've got another millenium off!"

Or how does it work?
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A requiem mass helps their progress through Purgatory.
If purgatory exists, I refuse to believe in a deity who has a "fast checkout" for those fortunate enough to have a bunch of friends who can get together and say the right words together - rather than, for example, the wretched isolated Christian martyr murdered in Syria. Or the multitude of Christians who do not believe in purgatory. Or praying for the dead.

That's such a convoluted idea that I'm calling it utter bullshit.
 
Posted by Kitten (# 1179) on :
 
My son is a death care professional so death is not seen as a taboo subject and has been discussed openly, he knows my wishes and is happy to honour them and vice versa.
My six year old grandson informed me that when he dies he wants to be cremated, when I asked why he said it was so that he couldn't become a zombie.

My Mother does not like talking about death but she has pre-booked and paid for her funeral and as the executor of her will she has let me know all details.

I have had a will since my early twenties as I was a divorced parent and needed to ensure appropriate arrangements in the event of my death, it has been updated a few times in line with changes of circumstance, it will need to be updated again this year .
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If purgatory exists, I refuse to believe in a deity who has a "fast checkout" for those fortunate enough to have a bunch of friends who can get together and say the right words together - rather than, for example, the wretched isolated Christian martyr murdered in Syria.
I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is that in the theology of those Churches that believe in Purgatory martyrs go straight to Heaven.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
On the subject of the OP, I don't really think or worry too much about my own death. I do, however, think and worry about how (or, indeed, if) I will be remembered. I don't fear death itself, but I do fear dying without having done anything of significance in this life.
 
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :
 
I think clearly if you want a Star Trek funeral and then NASA to blast your ashes into space then that might be imposing just a bit too much on the surviving friends and relations.

However, little things like burial or cremation, some hymns, etc are something that people really should express an opinion about while they still can (IF it matters to them. Obviously the secular may have views about readings, songs, poetry, etc).

I've become really quite militant about this since my mum died unexpectedly (62) 18 months or so ago with no preferences stated other than "cremation."

Trying to help my father in the 2 weeks post death pull together a funeral that would work when all either of us wanted was to grieve is *not* an experience I would be wanting to repeat, and not something I would wish even on those I don't particularly like.

It's fine to not care either way, but then say *that.* If you do have some specific wishes, for God's sake say *those.*

Don't leave grieving people flapping around worrying about what to do for the best. Even if you take the view that the funeral is for those left behind rather than the deceased (which I don't share FWIW), I struggle to see what those left behind get out of numbly trying to make decisions with no clue what their loved one might have wanted regarding any of it. Make life in those ten days or so easier for them (as if it isn't hell enough anyway); have an opinion.

Just don't ask for something ludicrous and leave them beholden.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Kitten:
quote:
My six year old grandson informed me that when he dies he wants to be cremated, when I asked why he said it was so that he couldn't become a zombie.
Your grandson has the right idea - I wouldn't want to be a zombie either. Greece or Russia (or anywhere else with large numbers of Orthodoxen) would be a bad place to be in a Zombie Apocalypse.

I thought this thread was going to be about those times when you wake up at 4am in a panic, wondering what *really* happens to your mind/soul/consciousness after death...

I have no objection to a Star Trek-style funeral myself, provided that someone takes Mr Scott's bagpipes away from him for the duration of the ceremony.

[ 04. January 2016, 13:18: Message edited by: Jane R ]
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Now I see this thread has gone in a less existential direction I would like to add another tuppence worth.

I look after a very good friend's grave. I keep it tidy, light a candle etc every 10 days or fortnight. The grave-site at her feet was free and I signed up for it (on it? to it?) last week.
Her daughters and the several friends I have told have all said "How lovely" or "That's friendship". We all have widely differing beliefs so it's nothing to do with that. But it has just "tickled" so many people. And I think of people who knew both of us seeing the adjacent graves will be "tickled" too. Not as obvious as same-name husband and wife but people who know will notice.
 
Posted by Kitten (# 1179) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Kitten:
quote:
My six year old grandson informed me that when he dies he wants to be cremated, when I asked why he said it was so that he couldn't become a zombie.
Your grandson has the right idea - I wouldn't want to be a zombie either. Greece or Russia (or anywhere else with large numbers of Orthodoxen) would be a bad place to be in a Zombie Apocalypse.

I thought this thread was going to be about those times when you wake up at 4am in a panic, wondering what *really* happens to your mind/soul/consciousness after death...

I have no objection to a Star Trek-style funeral myself, provided that someone takes Mr Scott's bagpipes away from him for the duration of the ceremony.
He was also worried that I would be a zombie if I was buried so I promised that I would make sure Daddy tied my shoelaces together first
 
Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 
In an age and culture where death was much more 'in your face' it was still a common practice for people to have some kind of memento more (reminder of death). We can easily think it won't happen to us. A consciousness of the reality of death that leads to a life well lived rather than dissipated is probably a good thing. A useful kind of mindfulness which enhances the value of the present moment.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
One of my daughters is still a teenager, so for the next year or so we'll be perfectly fine if there's a Zombie Apocalypse ...
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A requiem mass helps their progress through Purgatory.
If purgatory exists, I refuse to believe in a deity who has a "fast checkout" for those fortunate enough to have a bunch of friends who can get together and say the right words together - rather than, for example, the wretched isolated Christian martyr murdered in Syria. Or the multitude of Christians who do not believe in purgatory. Or praying for the dead.

That's such a convoluted idea that I'm calling it utter bullshit.
In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
In thinking about my own death, I have made it clear that I wish to have a Catholic funeral.
I don't mind if my surviving relatives decide to have my body cremated or buried.
Anyone who does not wish to attend the funeral is welcome to stay at home. I won't be in any position to mind.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
.... I do, however, think and worry about how (or, indeed, if) I will be remembered. I don't fear death itself, but I do fear dying without having done anything of significance in this life.
That thought sometimes occurs to me as well, usually when I'm making or fixing a memorial that has various obe's, titles or some other credit. Just a bit of a case of comparing ourselves to others I think.

Something that brings those thoughts into context is the experience of a friend, sadly no longer alive himself. He was a gravedigger for many years and wasn't then particularly religious. He did however become friendly with a vicar who officiated at the funeral of a vagrant. With them being the only two in attendance at the graveside, he said to me later that something moved in him and became the beginning of a conversion to prayer in Christ.

The point I'm trying to make is that a person's death can sometimes touch us in a strange way, even if it was an individual whose life was apparently of little consequence in the greater scheme of things.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.
A multitude of Christians believe in the "power of prayer" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I think it's important to live each day in full consciousness that it might be our last. That is not to suggest that we eat, drink and be merry while we can, but rather to suggest that we still have the opportunity to serve God until our very last breath, to make a positive difference to the world for the sake of all. If we can do nothing else, we can continue to pray for other people.

Ref the op, a morbid fascination would imply that there is more to think through concerning death, perhaps as to whether or not there is an afterlife, and/or whether death is something to be afraid of.
I think your first paragraph is very good. However, it may prove too much of a challenge for some who find themselves - not so much thinking or longing for death - but undergoing practical traumatic life changes where the prospect of continuing to live is bleak and apparently without hope. A severe illness eg, where job and income prospects disappear, or where every day is painful, and there is no prognosis of anything different, ever.

As Walt Whitman wrote, if we consider ourselve lucky in our birth, why not in our death?

Re the second para, I think I'm with those who say that living with chronic suffering can potentially reconcile you to the event of death itself, as something not to be afraid of.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.
A multitude of Christians believe in the "power of prayer" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
Possibly far off topic here, I hold to the view that prayer doesn't change God's mind; it opens our own minds to God, which I find much more useful.

As to our deaths, I've concluded recently that my own perception of it has everything to do with age. Twenty years ago I would have been worried that my marriage had been cut off early and that my children would be left with a large part of their support taken away. The marriage has lasted over 40 rich years now and I would like many more, but we've had a good time. The children are self supporting (almost...) and my departure now might sadden them, but wouldn't hurt them, so I can face it more easily now. And I had to, when a medical treatment went horribly wrong. Since then, life has felt quite different; easier to enjoy the good bits, easier to dismiss the rest, and in theory, not too bothered about how it all ends.

I haven't got much into funerals yet, but I really want my organist friend to play something inappropriate by Offenbach, mostly to annoy people.
 
Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 
My dad died when I was 27. I had lived all of my life until that point expecting him to die. He had very serious heart problems and had his first heart attack when I was 2. When he died it was so completely unsurprising for me and my brother that we took it in our stride and recovered quite quickly. It didn't lead to any thoughts of our own deaths.

My mother died in October last year. I am 52, she was 81 and frail. For some reason, my mind seems to have thought she was going to live forever and her death has really rocked me. However, she had been extraordinarily sensible - she downsized about 10 years ago, moved into a lovely retirement complex about 4 years ago, and kept on doing all the things she enjoyed and none of the things she disliked. Watching her die was awful, but she had been such a wonderful friend and mum that we just wanted every possible moment we could with her.

My father-in-law died 18 months ago, fighting everyone every step of the way, making it extremely unpleasant to be anywhere near him. My mother-in-law is immobile, confused, and focussed on why she can't leave her rest home. Until she was moved into the rest home, she was never going to move, no way!

The last 2 years have forced me and my partner to think about how we want our old age and death to be. Watching my mother's dignified and happy last few years and contrasting it with my parents-in-law's bitter fighting with us, the medical practitioners around them and then the rest home staff, we know what we want for ourselves.

It is likely that, like my mother and grandmother, I will have a stroke in my 70s or 80s. I think about that a lot at the moment. But I also think about the life that my mother lived enthusiastically right up until the week before her death, and I want to be able to do the same. I am taking all the steps I can to make sure that my health and fitness are better than my parents'.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.
A multitude of Christians believe in the "power of prayer" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
In which case, they don't believe in the communion of saints.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.
A multitude of Christians believe in the "power of prayer" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
In which case, they don't believe in the communion of saints.
A multitude of Christians believe in the "communion of saints" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A requiem mass helps their progress through Purgatory.
If purgatory exists, I refuse to believe in a deity who has a "fast checkout" for those fortunate enough to have a bunch of friends who can get together and say the right words together - rather than, for example, the wretched isolated Christian martyr murdered in Syria. Or the multitude of Christians who do not believe in purgatory. Or praying for the dead.

That's such a convoluted idea that I'm calling it utter bullshit.
In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.
In the sense of twisting God's arm to make things happen? No, I don't really think I do.
 
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
I have jjust returned home after 24 hours in the Stroke ward of Southampton Hospital. I think mortality was trying to catch me out!! However, it seems it was a TIA , so I shall be tapping on Thursday for the start of the term as usual. I recieved excellent care.

It does go to show, however, how important it is not to hesitate but take immediate action if one has any of the standard stroke symptoms.In this case, it was a numbness in the left side of mouth and cheek.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In which case, you don'ty believe in the power of prayer.
A multitude of Christians believe in the "power of prayer" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
In which case, they don't believe in the communion of saints.
A multitude of Christians believe in the "communion of saints" without also believing in the need to pray for the souls of the departed.
But that is surely how the term was meant to be used when the Apostles Creed was drawn up - against Donatists who separated the church militant from the church expectant

[ 05. January 2016, 19:06: Message edited by: leo ]
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
When I think about my own death it tends to fall into the standard category of I hope it doesn't hurt. This is irrational because a person can experience extreme pain without death necessarily being the end result. Adding to that, many many people have lives that end painlessly.

Then there's that sudden sinking feeling in the gut you can get when the thought dawns of *not being here any more*, you know-- for the rest of eternity. This fear is also irrational because we seem to forget we weren't here in the eternity before our birth.

All this puny attempt at rationality is of course going on in an animal brain which, under normal circumstances, is hard wired for survival. Yet in humans this can be over-ridden as well we know.
 
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
rolyn
I really like the way you have put that; it's got everything exactly right.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
When I think about my own death it tends to fall into the standard category of I hope it doesn't hurt. This is irrational because a person can experience extreme pain without death necessarily being the end result. Adding to that, many many people have lives that end painlessly.

Then there's that sudden sinking feeling in the gut you can get when the thought dawns of *not being here any more*, you know-- for the rest of eternity. This fear is also irrational because we seem to forget we weren't here in the eternity before our birth.

All this puny attempt at rationality is of course going on in an animal brain which, under normal circumstances, is hard wired for survival. Yet in humans this can be over-ridden as well we know.
Brilliantly put.

I feel the same. Number 1 - I don't want it to hurt. But, like you say, I have had times of excruciating pain but wasn't afraid - just in pain! When I had gall stone pain and was blue/couldn't move I was reassuring my friends that it would pass and I didn't need an ambulance (which was true).

We simply can't imagine not existing - because to imagine you have to exist!

I agree about the animal too. The drive to survive in living things gives everything we have. If all creatures overcame that drive there would be no life on Earth. So it matters enormously.

[ 06. January 2016, 07:54: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I have jjust returned home after 24 hours in the Stroke ward of Southampton Hospital. I think mortality was trying to catch me out!! However, it seems it was a TIA , so I shall be tapping on Thursday for the start of the term as usual. I recieved excellent care.

It does go to show, however, how important it is not to hesitate but take immediate action if one has any of the standard stroke symptoms.In this case, it was a numbness in the left side of mouth and cheek.
Good advice, SusanDoris, thank you. I'm pleased to hear that you are home and can continue to dance. Events that this do give us focus on our mortality!
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
When I think about my own death it tends to fall into the standard category of I hope it doesn't hurt. This is irrational because a person can experience extreme pain without death necessarily being the end result. Adding to that, many many people have lives that end painlessly.
Another irony of such a thought is that many of the most painless ways to die are also the most violent. For example, someone who is blown to bits by high explosive literally doesn't have time to experience the pain before all brain activity ceases.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But that is surely how the term was meant to be used when the Apostles Creed was drawn up - against Donatists who separated the church militant from the church expectant
I'm not going to second guess the early church. But praying for those who are already experiencing the undiluted Godhead is redundant.

If the saints in glory wish to pray for me, however, I'm not going to object.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But that is surely how the term was meant to be used when the Apostles Creed was drawn up - against Donatists who separated the church militant from the church expectant
I'm not going to second guess the early church.
As I understand it, the view that the phrase "the communion of saints" gained traction and was inserted into the Apostle's Creed as a reaction to Donatism is but one of a number of theories on the origin of the phrase in the creed. Another theory is that it was a reaction to Vigilantius's objection to veneration of the saints.

So I'm not sure it takes any second guessing of the early church to say that scholars don't seem to agree about exactly how the early church "surely" meant for the term to be used.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But that is surely how the term was meant to be used when the Apostles Creed was drawn up - against Donatists who separated the church militant from the church expectant
I'm not going to second guess the early church. But praying for those who are already experiencing the undiluted Godhead is redundant.

If the saints in glory wish to pray for me, however, I'm not going to object.
The saints experience the 'undiluted.' but most of us need to go through purgatory first.
 
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
It being the new year, and having just had a birthday and just returned from the requiem for a dear friend, I began a review of 'end of life' chores as follows: and I'm sure there's more. And I'll get started on it, I really will! Maybe tomorrow. [Frown]
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
Of course, in a sense there is no need for Christians to pray for those who have departed this life, just as there is no need to pray for those living in this world.

In both instances the omnipotent and omniscient God knows what is happening without our having to inform Him.

And yet Jesus asks us to pray that God will forgive us our sins, just as we are asked to forgive others.

Certainly Catholics consider it as one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy to pray for both the living and the Dead and I assume that many other Christians see it as a worthwhile thing to pray for others.

We can interpret 'Ask and it will be given to you' no doubt in a number of ways, but surely at least one of them is an encouragement ,from the words of Jesus,to pray for all.

A poster mentioned that it seemed unfair that some people had lots of prayers offered for them after their death, while others had none . It is again just the same for the living, but surely Christians can trust the Good Lord to even things out.

For what it is worth every Catholic eucharist contains prayers for all the living and all the dead, so no=one is forgotten.
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
When I think about my own death it tends to fall into the standard category of I hope it doesn't hurt. This is irrational because a person can experience extreme pain without death necessarily being the end result. Adding to that, many many people have lives that end painlessly.

It's certainly how most people in general fair health would feel. I think one's attitide towards death can become much more complex and ambiguous however if one lives in daily constant significant pain, with the expectation that things will not likely change until death.

In that case, then, death is not merely some future unscheduled one-off occurence which may or may not cause unwelcome physical trauma, come the moment of demise. It can become an almost calculable circumstancem or kind of living environment - albeit of the future - mediating reconciliation between the undesirability of a continued hopeless existance and the wish to not give up, no matter how hopeless.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
That is indeed the predicament that I believe many of us, rightly or wrongly, fear the most Anselmina .
 
Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :
 
I've only read the first page and it does seem to dwell too much on the practicalities - which are important. But far more important is the philosophical angle, especially for those who do not believe in a Christian sort of afterlife.

Many people spend most of their lives in denial of their mortality - especially in the relatively "safe" areas of the world. This is my understanding of the matter - though I don't have anything more than anecdotal evidence to go on.

It's not just a matter of being aware of death that is important, so much as an acceptance of it as a perfectly natural and (to the community at large) beneficial transition, whether it's a transition to heaven, hell, or merely the dispersion and recycling of one's elements.

Taking children to funerals is very beneficial in my view. The "best" one I ever attended left the coffin in situ after the ceremony so that family and friends could gather around afterwards to say goodbye in their own way (an extension of the wake, I guess). It was taken by a licenced Humanist who included, at the family's request, Christian material which they felt was helpful.

[ 08. January 2016, 15:55: Message edited by: pimple ]
 


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