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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: New Wine Leader steps down
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Tyler Durden
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# 2996
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Posted
Just heard about this Mark Bailey stands down
This is quite a bombshell. Do any shipmates know anything about this situation?
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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld
Posts: 509 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eliab
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# 9153
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Posted
HOSTING
Looking at the link, I'm not sure there's much in the public domain to warrant discussion. Since there appears to be a disciplinary matter mentioned, with no details given, Shipmates are warned to steer well clear of any potentially libellous speculations.
I'm leaving this thread open for the time being pending discussion with the other Hosts, but be careful.
/HOSTING
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Tyler Durden
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# 2996
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Posted
Sorry. I nearly said "I know this is a bit gossipy and if a host wants to remove it do" so... Whatever you decide.
But I think it's fair to say that this is a significant story given how powerful a force (for good or ill depending on your perspective) New Wine is. Hence my judgement that it was 'in the public interest' to discuss it. But this may not be the place.
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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
But I think it's fair to say that this is a significant story given how powerful a force (for good or ill depending on your perspective) New Wine is.
Perhaps given this, someone can explain for us non-Brits exactly what New Wine is, and how it is a force for good or ill?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
We caught it from you. John Wimber. Tho' Raleigh is a ways east I realise. Half way to us almost.
[ 02. February 2016, 22:46: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We caught it from you. John Wimber. Tho' Raleigh is a ways east I realise. Half way to us almost.
Never heard of John Wimber, but looking him up, I see that he was one of the founders of the Vineyard Movement, which I am vaguely familiar with. So, is New Wine the British manifestation of the Vineyard Movement?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Nightlamp
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# 266
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Posted
New Wine is the Charismatic end of the Church of England very low church with no robes, no candles (although tea lights for prayers might be OK) & communion is probably rarely celebrated at the main service. There is a focus on the gifts of the spirit, prayers for healing & in my experience quite long sermons with personal anecdotes.
Mark Bailey is a person of some significance for that particular branch of the church & as a preacher when I have heard him he has been good but a little over long but that was some time ago.
Objectively measured his ministry at Trinity has been very successful & so what ever has happened is very sad.
[ 02. February 2016, 23:15: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Thanks, Nightlamp.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Tyler Durden
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# 2996
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Posted
Just spent 15 minutes explaining New Wine and why it polarises people and accidentally deleted it! Doh. Too late to start again.
In a nutshell, it's a network of charismatic evangelical churches who host massive gatherings each year and many of my good friends have found that those have made their faith and that of their children come alive in a way that the mainstream church doesn't.
However, I consider it a quasi-fascist movement (seriously) in that it seeks to sweep away the existing liberal church establishment (it's predominantly Anglican) and replace it with a 'purer' form of Christianity ie a hard line one with a lot of emphasis on alleged 'miraculous' healings, demons and deliverance and homosexuality being the root of all evil!
So, my interest in why its leader has stepped down may be in large part a case of sour grapes but equally this is a potentially very significant event in my church world.
See New Wine
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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Thanks for the additional info, Tyler. That's the sort of dynamic that can be hard to pick up on if one doesn't have firsthand experience.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Tyler Durden
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# 2996
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Posted
Sure
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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
Just spent 15 minutes explaining New Wine and why it polarises people and accidentally deleted it! Doh. Too late to start again.
In a nutshell, it's a network of charismatic evangelical churches who host massive gatherings each year and many of my good friends have found that those have made their faith and that of their children come alive in a way that the mainstream church doesn't.
However, I consider it a quasi-fascist movement (seriously) in that it seeks to sweep away the existing liberal church establishment (it's predominantly Anglican) and replace it with a 'purer' form of Christianity ie a hard line one with a lot of emphasis on alleged 'miraculous' healings, demons and deliverance and homosexuality being the root of all evil!
So, my interest in why its leader has stepped down may be in large part a case of sour grapes but equally this is a potentially very significant event in my church world.
See New Wine
I avoided in like the plague because charismatic evangelicalism is not my thing, but having read that I'm very glad I did for a whole list of other reasons.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
As with any other group or movement, the mileage varies. I've never been to a New Wine knees-up, nor would I go as my full-on charismatic evangelical days are behind me.
I can just about tolerate the 9am traditional service at my local parish church - whose vicar and his wife are big New Wine types. I avoid the more New Winey 11am service like the plague.
On the ground, I've found that New Wine clergy tend to be reasonably eirenic - they got on well with the RCs, Methodists, Pentecostals and so on ... which is great - but they sit very lightly by rubrics and lectionaries and so on and often scoff at traditional Anglican practices. Our vicar even uses plainly coloured Advent candles because coloured ones 'aren't in the Bible'!
Politically, I find they tend to be mildly on the left - although I find that's changing to some extent locally where we have a Tiry MP who happens to be an evangelical Christian. She's a good constituency MP but I do get the impression some of these people vote for her because she's evangelical.
Tyler's right about them wanting to sweep all before them and oust nasty liberals and traditionalists but here, as with the claims of healing, the rhetoric exceeds the reality.
Interestingly, I've heard praise for New Wine and HTB folk from unexpected quarters - in terms if them re-invigorating parishes and even helping more catholic parishes without interfering too much ... so perhaps there's some moderation coming in over time?
It's 30 years since the Wimber visits to the UK and 20 since the peak of the 'Toronto Blessing' so perhaps some of the heat and fire is cooling down?
I've noticed, though, that our vicar and his cronies sometimes try to introduce 11am elements into the 9am service. It's always been a 'low' parish - no processions or flummery - but I get the impression that they'd flatten it out even further if they could.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Tyler Durden
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# 2996
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Posted
Interesting point about their bark (rhetoric) being worse than their bite. That may be true but I'm pretty sure that were they in a position to impose their view of church on The Church, they would...
Meanwhile, you lump NW and HTB I together but I think they're very different beasts. While HTB is quite extreme from where I sit, they don't get involved in the culture wars the way NW do. They just get on with what they're doing. Pretty much.
So, to use an example (which might be offensive to some and unintelligible to people outside the UK: if New Wine is the BNP, HTB is somewhere between UKIP and the right wing of the Tory party! Although as you say, British evangelicals aren't necessarily politically right-wing and can be quite left-wing. So perhaps I should say, if HTB are Jeremy Corbyn, New Wine are the Socialist Workers Party!
[ 03. February 2016, 06:33: Message edited by: Tyler Durden ]
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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I know nothing about this situation, but if it is as the information suggests, it is not good. The Clergy Disciplinary Measure appears to be about personal misconduct of clergy, rather than about "doctrine, ritual or ceremony". It doesn't take too much imagination to think of things which this might include that are not illegal, none of them good.
I do know about the New Wine tendency in the Church of England in general and at Trinity Cheltenham in particular.
At the core of the New Wine group are a smallish number of large charismatic churches, roughly one per large town. Surrounding this core are a larger number of other churches, which are often otherwise MOTR (middle of the road) Anglican parish churches. These tend to be smaller, tend to be less generally charismatic, tend to blend the "worship band" services with other kinds (often including 8am BCP etc services).
This "outer ring" of New Wine churches tends to include a fair number of people whose only contact with it are attending conferences with their church friends once a year. Often the clergy have little or no special role within the New Wine structure.
Holy Trinity, Cheltenham (which styles itself as "Trinity Church" is most definitely a core church. The vicar (who actually describes himself as pastor) is in a main position within the organisation - as are the leaders from the other core churches. The services are all modelled on New Wine style and attract a lot of people, in particular (but not entirely) the young and students. This is in contrast to those in the "outer ring" who are more of a mix of ages and include people who have no interest in New Wine.
The problem for the Anglican structure is that the core New Wine group holds a lot of financial sway, often having much larger congregations than other parish churches. And there have been mutterings and complaints from some of these churches that the denomination is a financial drain and a hindrance - for example there have been some who have complained about the size of their parish share. This has come to a head when the structure appears to be heading in the wrong direction, as far as they are concerned, often on the Dead Horse issues, which the New Wine thing tends to take a strong line on. As it was explained to me, some question why they should be financially supporting diocese to employ people who do not promote their values (the subtext being that these large churches could be employing their own staff instead. Which some do).
The crisis, which is often threatened but never quite arrives, would be when the New Wine core churches played their trump card and left on-mass in a huff. Most are probably financially viable on their own and have enough momentum to keep going for a while. This would leave the rest of the churches in the surrounding deanery in a bit of a state (financially, most likely), and may well promote instability in the "outer core" - not to mention the sudden bequest of another large building with no congregation upon the Anglican structure. In my view it would not take many of these churches to leave before there was a serious financial crisis.
But, as I said above, these things have been threatened (obliquely and sometimes very clearly) many times in the past and nothing has happened. So the only question is the point at which the final straw is reached.
The worry for the rest of the Anglican structure is that New Wine does have form on this. Soul Survivor, the youth wing of the movement, was "spun off" from New Wine some years ago and has been gaining traction amongst many youth groups in many churches throughout the country. Soul Survivor itself has spun off large youth-led churches which attract a lot of young people in a couple of places in London. I believe these have relatively recently been brought back under the wing of the Anglican structure, but in a very arms-length way.
Anyway. That's how I see the current situation.
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arse
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
I've heard New Wine fairly accurately described as 'Anglo-Vineyard' ie: CofE meets Wimber-style charismatic theology and praxis.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
Whilst - as pointed out above - there are lots of churches which are affiliated with New Wine at the level of a church, it can also function as an outlet for the charismatic impulses within evangelical churches with broader backgrounds.
Those folk tend to be amongst the more eirenic of the 'New Wine' goers as their daily background is one of having to get along with people from a broader tradition.
I'm not sure about the characterisation of them as fascist - it would seem to be hyperbole to the extent that all movements seem to want to reproduce themselves.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The worry for the rest of the Anglican structure is that New Wine does have form on this. Soul Survivor, the youth wing of the movement, was "spun off" from New Wine some years ago and has been gaining traction amongst many youth groups in many churches throughout the country. Soul Survivor itself has spun off large youth-led churches which attract a lot of young people in a couple of places in London.
I tend to find this kind of argument amusing at one level; after all, such networks are usually viewed with a certain amount of patronising disdain by the other churches in their area. The sole motivation for keeping them 'on board' appears to be a financial one - and has there ever been a movement in the ascendant which hasn't brought financial pressure to bear?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
Presumably it is to do with "conduct unbecoming or inappropriate to the office and work of a
clerk in Holy Orders" (to quote the said Measure). Doubtless all will become known in due course.
The threats of withdrawing financial support often seem to be made by evangelicals. It happened when Jeffrey John was nominated bishop of Reading. And as for leaving the CofE, unlike the Ordinariate people it does seem to be so much bluff and bluster.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The fascist characterisation is not right. Charismatic movements in the UK have generally heaved out the quietist and anti-social-gospel dimension of earlier conservative evanglicalism. My experience of them is that they are generally (but by no means universally) conservative on the gay issue, progressive on the role of women in the church (excepting New Frontiers), progressive on positive social action re poverty at home and abroad, progressive on active lay involvement in the life of the church.
In May 1997, I picked up by car Mike Pilavachi (Soul Survivor leader) and Matt Redman to take them to Norfolk conference where they were taking part. Mike couldn't stop talking (not uncommon with him) about the election results and the sweeping Labour successes. You'd have thought the millenium had come. I reckon his politics are old Labour and it wouldn't surprise me at all to discover that he has a lot of sympathy for much of the Corbyn political agenda. Particularly on the middle east conflicts. For example, he didn't like Iraq War 2, was very much in support of the Jim Wallis anti-war moves at that time.
I think some New Wine church leaders do get pretty cheesed off with their share of the quota (often substantial because of the size of their churches) being used to support parishes which basically diss their Anglo-Wimberism ecclesiology. From their perspective the message they get is "we see the financial benefits of your congregation raising, offering-increasing capabilities, but we don't think much of you". I guess you can understand it, whichever side of that divide you happen to sit on.
Unlike the generally top down government style of New Frontiers (which may be changing gradually post-Virgo), I think the New Wine churches within Anglicanism do live relatively comfortably within the established C of E structures. No doubt there is some mutual "rubbing up the wrong way" but that's not the same as deliberate, fascist-like motivated, subversion. I haven't seen any of that.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think mr cheesy's analysis is correct - and yes, Tyler, I would also make a distinction between New Wine and HTB ... but for the purposes of the point I was making I grouped the two together.
I would also baulk at the 'fascist' thing ... one might as easily say there was a Stalinist tendency there - a focus on big leaders and big congregations.
The Dead Horse issues are more of an issue for New Winers than other Anglican charismatics ... such as the HTB types.
What I'm not sure about is how many charismatics there are within the CofE these days who are somehow outwith even the outer rings of the New Wine Saturn as it were.
From where I've come from, it looks like New Wine and Soul Survivor stole New Frontiers' thunder to a certain extent after Terry Virgo shelved the big Stoneleigh Bible Weeks ... and became some kind of medium to pass on and sustain the Wimber legacy/influence on the UK charismatic scene after the Toronto Blessing began to fade.
As time has gone on, large congregations such as those at Trinity in Cheltenham have built up sufficient critical-mass to act as if the rest of the Anglican set-up is something of an irrelevance. For the other New Winers, particularly in an area like the one I live in where suburbia meets rural, they have had to come to terms with the fact that the 'New Wine size' doesn't fit all ... and that not everyone in their parishes wants to go down that particular route - even though they'd like them to.
Consequently, there's been some adjustment and accommodation - often against the inclinations of those who've drunk deeply of the New Wine and who need to sober up a bit ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Whatever has happened with this chap in Cheltenham I can't see it dislodging the New Winers from their intentions and trajectory ...
New Wine is also bigger than its CofE constituency and receives support from Baptist charismatics and other non-Anglican charismatic evangelicals.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
Sorry. I nearly said "I know this is a bit gossipy and if a host wants to remove it do" so... Whatever you decide.
But I think it's fair to say that this is a significant story given how powerful a force (for good or ill depending on your perspective) New Wine is.
Is it? It's not on my radar at all. I'm vaguely aware it exists and having worked a commercial concession there once some 25 years ago I'd rather eat my own earwax than go as a punter, but that's about it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Whatever has happened with this chap in Cheltenham I can't see it dislodging the New Winers from their intentions and trajectory ...
I doubt very much whether the intentions and trajectory are at all monolithic. A lot of people go in church groups, enjoy the company and meal sharing, and the community singing. For the ones I know who go regularly, I reckon the motivation are more koinonia (fellowship and joint participation) than church-political. I'm sure some go to get their opinions reinforced, but perhaps not suprisingly, most of my friends who go are a lot more independent-minded than that. I'm not saying they are typical, but IME any monolithic assumptions about UK charismatics seem to assume, wrongly, that they have suspended making proper use of their brains and their freedoms. That's just not what I find.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Where did I say that they had abandoned their brains and their critical faculties?
Where did I say that they were all on the same page in terms of the trajectory of the whole thing?
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
What I meant was that the movement is broader than any one individual - and so whatever transpires from this particular incident/suspension isn't going to derail it.
I don't think that the circles that radiate out from New Wine are all perfectly concentric or uniform in any way. Yes, people go for various reasons and people derive different things from their engagement in the camps and events.
But there is a distinct 'agenda' there just as there is in any other 'ginger-group' or movement.
That doesn't imply that it's a necessarily 'sinister' one - that they are out to clone us all ...
You'd never get me to a New Wine convention. I wouldn't just rather eat my own ear-wax I'd rather scoop out one of my own turds from the toilet bowl and wrap it in a wrap - or a specially prepared Staffordshire oatcake - and eat it neat without any seasoning.
That doesn't mean that I don't attend services at my local parish church where there are starry-eyed New Winers or people who want to shunt things more in that kind of direction.
It simply means that if they did shunt things further in that direction then I'd jump off ...
I'm sure there is good stuff about the New Wine conventions and jamborees ... but I've done all that sort of thing years ago, back in my restorationist house-church days. We had good times. But no matter how good, bad or indifferent it is, you ain't going to get me along to a New Wine event anytime soon because it's not where I'm at. I'm not remotely interested in it.
I'd rather go to a stamp-collectors convention despite having no interest whatsoever in stamps, or a model railway convention or pigeon convention or toad-sexing for beginners convention ...
I'd rather go to a let's wrap our own turds in Staffordshire oatcakes and eat them neat without seasoning convention ...
Other than that, I wish them well ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Higgs Bosun
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# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Presumably it is to do with "conduct unbecoming or inappropriate to the office and work of a
clerk in Holy Orders" (to quote the said Measure). Doubtless all will become known in due course.
The threats of withdrawing financial support often seem to be made by evangelicals. It happened when Jeffrey John was nominated bishop of Reading. And as for leaving the CofE, unlike the Ordinariate people it does seem to be so much bluff and bluster.
In a debate of this kind, please remember that there are two, fairly distinct, evangelical groupings in the Church of England: there are the charismatics, exemplified by Holy Trinity, Brompton and the core New Winers, and there are the conservatives, exemplified by 'Reform' and St Helen's, Bishopsgate.
The former group, in my experience, are much better at working with Anglicans of a different stripe, than the latter. It is the latter who tend to be vocal in their financial threats.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes, I think that's true, but I wouldn't put financial threats beyond the core New Winers ... even if only as the last, Trident-style nuclear option ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
Higgs Bosun - I guess you are right. My apologies. They all look the same to me, but that says more about me. A taxonomy of evangelicals would be useful (to us way up the candle sorts).
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I don't go anymore either, Gamaliel, largely because we're past 'life under canvas'. I've never been part of the excesses of restorationism and its allied control-freakeries and I'm glad you got away from it. But that may make me more tolerant of the imperfections of these various expressions of renewal.
Generally, I reckon the UK renewal movement has been a mixed blessing but not a universal curse. I think its greatest value is that it has afflicted the complacent and the comfortable. Its greatest failing was and still is to be found in those parts which trash the existing churches and their more traditional members as dead on their collective and individual feet.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure, I probably come across as more cynical about the whole thing on these boards than I am in real life.
The problem for me is that whilst I admire the work our local Anglican renewalists do and the way they engage with people, succeed in getting people involved and fired-up about Christianity and church and so on in a way that the less renewal-influenced churches do ... I feel like a spectator rather than a contributor.
Sure, at the risk of sounding patronising, I enjoy the spectacle of the kids eating their jelly and blancmange at their birthday party, but I don't really want a bowlful of it myself ...
At least I've changed the analogy to jelly and blancmange from shit-sandwiches ...
I owe a lot to the renewal in general and indeed, to restorationism ... for all the duff bits.
So my view is probably a lot less jaundiced than it can sound here at times.
I just wish they found some way of doing all that stuff without some of the silliness and 'packaging' that goes with it. But that's probably too much to ask ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
A taxonomy of evangelicals would be useful (to us way up the candle sorts).
That sounds like a collective noun. What might you call a group of assorted High Church types - an illumination? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
[ 03. February 2016, 14:20: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
A taxonomy of evangelicals would be useful (to us way up the candle sorts).
That sounds like a collective noun. What might you call a group of assorted High Church types - an illumination?
a distillation.
nothing will however ever match a piteousness of doves.
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And is it true? For if it is....
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Higgs Bosun - I guess you are right. My apologies. They all look the same to me, but that says more about me. A taxonomy of evangelicals would be useful (to us way up the candle sorts).
I think the easiest way to understand the Evangelicals inside the Church of England is to find their bedfellows outside.
New Wine is closest to Vineyard - which in a very broad sense might be considered to be a variation on Pentecostalism. The emphasis here is on ecstatic, more-or-less unstructured worship. The "gifts of the spirit" would be seen on a regular basis.
Holy Trinity Brompton is probably most similar to the Baptist Union in outlook - generally more of a mix of ages, often have "worship bands" but also have an emphasis on preaching/teaching.
There is some cross-over between these, although I'd say HTB is more interested in boosting various types of denominational churches (for example the Alpha course has been put on in various denominations) whereas New Wine is pretty much focussed on the "worship", and to my mind are seeking to rub out any denominational differences. The "gifts of the Spirit" and "words of prophecy" would not be unknown, but would not be given a very regular platform.
As far as the Anglican church is concerned, I'd say that the Anglican church wouldn't be Anglican (ie liturgy would be almost entirely lost) if New Wine had wider influence, whereas wider influence of HTB would be a beefed-up version of many low Anglican parishes.
The Conservative Evangelicals as per St Helen's Billingsgate have little cross-over with these other groups. They often disapprove (or stronger) of the charismatic gifts, on pictures and on prophesies. They'd disapprove of going to New Wine, may disapprove of Alpha and would probably be looking for more "sound" teaching at conservative conferences like Keswick. Music is less likely to be the "full worship band", more likely to be a mix of classic Wesley hymns. At the fringes, the Conservative Evangelical Anglicans are most similar to the stereotypical hardline Presbyterians, but even away from those edges they might be characterised as being more like the FIEC evangelicals.
Of course, all of that is an over-generalisation, so take with a pinch of salt.
[ 03. February 2016, 14:49: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
Can I ask the assembled readers, because this is a bit new to me, where an FCA parish sits on the spectrum?
I only ask because after years of fellow travelling with FiF I find myself in an isolated and very low rural parish where I was startled to see the parish magazine commending GAFCON after the Primates shindig the other week.
I know very little about the CofE evo world, except that I now seem to be in it.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Can I ask the assembled readers, because this is a bit new to me, where an FCA parish sits on the spectrum?
I only ask because after years of fellow travelling with FiF I find myself in an isolated and very low rural parish where I was startled to see the parish magazine commending GAFCON after the Primates shindig the other week.
I know very little about the CofE evo world, except that I now seem to be in it.
GAFCON, I'd say, was in the Conservative Evangelical camp - ie somewhere in the direction of the more stricter Evangelicals. The Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans in England is pretty small beer AFAIU, but I'm guessing they're mostly going to be parishes which use liturgy, stick to hymns, avoid the charismatic, have vicars who do not wear clerical clothing and instead favour dark suits. "Strong" bible teaching will be a priority.
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arse
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Can I ask the assembled readers, because this is a bit new to me, where an FCA parish sits on the spectrum?
I only ask because after years of fellow travelling with FiF I find myself in an isolated and very low rural parish where I was startled to see the parish magazine commending GAFCON after the Primates shindig the other week.
I know very little about the CofE evo world, except that I now seem to be in it.
GAFCON, I'd say, was in the Conservative Evangelical camp - ie somewhere in the direction of the more stricter Evangelicals. The Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans in England is pretty small beer AFAIU, but I'm guessing they're mostly going to be parishes which use liturgy, stick to hymns, avoid the charismatic, have vicars who do not wear clerical clothing and instead favour dark suits. "Strong" bible teaching will be a priority.
seems to be all of that but with vestments.
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And is it true? For if it is....
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
seems to be all of that but with vestments.
Right, clerical clothing is not universally discarded by these groups - I've known some Cathedral Deans who were very close to HTB.
I think it is unlikely that any group seeking to align itself with GAFCON would see much common cause with the New Wine churches (except perhaps as a convenient fellow protest group eg against SSM).
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arse
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
It is all quite as baffling as how many pleats one should have in one's cassock.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
WRT the position of New Wine vis-a-vis dead horse issues, the comments on the Premier Radio site seem to indicate that Mark Bailey was, if anything, supportive of gay Christians. I don't think that New Wine (unlike, say Fulcrum, the open evo organisation) has a party line on SSM. There are plenty of members "agin", but there are associate churches that are supportive as well. My experience of Trinity Cheltenham is that it is much closer in feel to HTB than most NW churches, even the larger, more prominent ones.
[ 03. February 2016, 15:16: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
WRT the position of New Wine vis-a-vis dead horse issues, the comments on the Premier Radio site seem to indicate that Mark Bailey was, if anything, supportive of gay Christians. I don't think that New Wine (unlike, say Fulcrum, the open evo organisation) has a party line on SSM.
That's interesting. I suspect that whilst Trinity Cheltenham might indeed be supportive of gay people, the support would entail encouraging them to lead single, celibate lives. I'd be very surprised if this was not the "party line" of New Wine.
quote:
There are plenty of members "agin", but there are associate churches that are supportive as well. My experience of Trinity Cheltenham is that it is much closer in feel to HTB than most NW churches, even the larger, more prominent ones.
Again, that's an interesting observation which is at odds to my experience. Having been to a lot of HTB-influenced Anglican churches (and a few where there were a group who regularly attended NW), I found Trinity to be off-the-charts in terms of over-the-top charismatic NW fervour. But of course YMMV.
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arse
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Mark Bailey was, if anything, supportive of gay Christians.
Recognising the DH boundary, that's pretty much what I'd heard.
If folks are interested in discussing further the approaches and attitudes to gay issues within the UK charismatic churches, please wend your way down to Dead Horses and either join a thread or start a new one.
Barnabas62
Purgatory (and Dead Horses) Host
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Can I ask the assembled readers, because this is a bit new to me, where an FCA parish sits on the spectrum?
I only ask because after years of fellow travelling with FiF I find myself in an isolated and very low rural parish where I was startled to see the parish magazine commending GAFCON after the Primates shindig the other week.
I know very little about the CofE evo world, except that I now seem to be in it.
Not that familiar with FCA or FiF - or at least not from the inside in either case. I'd be inclined to suspect that they are the evangelical equivalent of FiF.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Again, I think mr cheesy is pretty close with his categories ...
There are, of course, still 'Prayer Book evangelicals' and they tend to have less of an issue with clerical vestments.
I met a very Cramnerian vicar last year who was like something straight out of early Anglicanism ... I couldn't believe it ...
Originally, of course, under Elizabeth Ist, the Anglicans went in for a kind of principled and moderate Tudor Calvinism ... hence the 39 Articles.
I have found myself wondering how 'Anglican' the New Wine crowd are ... when I started attending our local parish church here - having moved down here from up north where I'd been involved with a Baptist church after my years in restorationism ... I realised that I was probably more 'Anglican' than many evangelical Anglicans.
I was quite disappointed, to be honest, with what I saw of evangelical Anglicanism up close. I'd always had a soft-spot for it when visiting my mum-in-laws evangelical parish church in a town not far from here. I liked the Psalms and the moderate amount of ceremony and vestments in contrast to my usual diet of high-octane happy-clappy.
Once they'd ditched all of that and put in a drum-kit, there was nothing to distinguish them from their local community church people nor the evangelical Methodists up the road ...
I s'pose the distinctive thing about the New Wine people is that they're continuing to run with the Wimber-esque signs, wonders, 'pictures' and so on ... although in my experience these seem largely confined to the bigger churches and the large conventions. When they try to introduce this sort of thing into parishes which aren't used to them nor interested in them then they only succeed in creating an inner sanctum of people who go in for that sort of thing ...
When I first moved here, I was still sufficiently charismaticky to think that I'd be able to help with that and steer it in such a way as it somehow kept 'on track' ... whatever that meant.
I quickly realised that I wasn't the least bit interested in putative 'words and pictures' and so on. I'm really not interested in the least. I really don't give a flying fart what words and 'pictures' they get because I've heard them all before and then some ... and they're no more convincing among charismatic Anglicans than they are among renewalists and restorationists elsewhere.
Some friends of ours, cradle Anglicans who'd moved to the town and bought a house near the church - were initially taken with all of that - they'd not come across it before. They went to New Wine conventions for 2 or 3 years then stopped going - because they'd seen everything there was to see by then and because they reckoned it was the same people going forward for 'ministry' and falling over or waving their arms around as it been the year before and the year before that ...
Sure, our vicar has more sense than to go in for 'fire tunnels' and all that malarkey and give him his due, he's achieved a lot in his time here ...
But I do wonder how long the apparent 'wonders' will last until people get bored of them and move onto something else. That process seems to have accelerated in recent years ...
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But I do wonder how long the apparent 'wonders' will last until people get bored of them and move onto something else. That process seems to have accelerated in recent years ...
TBH I suspect they can continue for quite some time - as they are in general of much lower intensity (cold reading via words and pictures, the odd bit of speaking in tongues and so on) than the practices of the charismatics of old. There has been some acceleration - and some NWers seem to haev a soft spot for Bill Johnson and co - but in general it does have a relatively low key 'don't scare the horses' element about it.
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Helen-Eva
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# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
It is all quite as baffling as how many pleats one should have in one's cassock.
Or indeed how many orphreys on one's chasuble. Wodehouse Short Story
[Edited to fix code in link]
[ 03. February 2016, 16:51: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But I do wonder how long the apparent 'wonders' will last until people get bored of them and move onto something else. That process seems to have accelerated in recent years ...
TBH I suspect they can continue for quite some time - as they are in general of much lower intensity (cold reading via words and pictures, the odd bit of speaking in tongues and so on) than the practices of the charismatics of old. There has been some acceleration - and some NWers seem to haev a soft spot for Bill Johnson and co - but in general it does have a relatively low key 'don't scare the horses' element about it.
Yes, I think that's the case and a good observation on your part. It's easy to sustain a low-key, low-level charismatic operation because it doesn't lend itself to obvious questioning and challenge ...
I've had run-ins with our vicar about this sort of thing and now some kind of limbo/truce exists. I don't go to the services where this sort of thing happens and he's given up trying to persuade me of the veracity of it all ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
Or indeed how many orphreys on one's chasuble. Wodehouse Short Story
There's an interesting typo in the linked excerpt that apparently escaped the proofreader's notice.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
My problem with New Wine, Alpha, HTB, and so on, is neatly summarised by the experience of someone from our church here - a baptised believer - who moved to Cheltenham, wanted to attend Trinity Church (where Mark Bailey is/was, apparently), and asked about home groups.
They were told that the only way this was possible was to attend an Alpha Course.
In other words, the Christian experience has been remade in the image of a contemporary product, complete with brands, marketing, processes, pipelines - and a business model. There is no room for any action that does not conform to this pattern.
For all the "charismatic" experience, the Holy Spirit often seems to be relegated to the "storytelling" that goes behind the brand - the touching account of an encounter or miracle that launched it all.
Some of the people involved are delightful, but I have real difficulty getting my head around it all.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
They were told that the only way this was possible was to attend an Alpha Course.
Never heard the like! That's about as potty a restriction as I've ever heard. Even the suspicious old Brethren were happy with a letter of introduction from the previous assembly.
(Late Edit. A bit of digging found this link. Clearly there is a pipeline process for entry to life groups.)
[ 03. February 2016, 17:31: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can just about tolerate the 9am traditional service at my local parish church - whose vicar and his wife are big New Wine types. I avoid the more New Winey 11am service like the plague.
You are moving towards the Old Gin end of the Church of England, aren't you?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I think the Alpha thing might just have been so people got to know you so they could suggest which of the cells you should join.
Trinity has (or possibly had, a few years since I had regular contact with people there) a very rigorous cell structure.
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arse
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