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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: New Wine Leader steps down
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
.. because it's more than compensated for by transfers elsewhere.
Interesting. I'd think that was highly unlikely to be true, but let's both go away and see if we can find any numbers.
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arse
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
According to this from 2012, there is a net loss of between 100 and 200 stipendiary clergy every year from the Church of England - table 7. Of these more than 200 are due to reasons other than retirement. It doesn't break down how many are coming in, but the total number of ordinations + "other" in 2012 was nearly 400.
Can anyone find better numbers?
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well I think emotional spontaneous charismatic religion is faux religion.
Why?
Well fundamentally, I don't think worship is the thing that we describe in normal language. Charismatic worship is, I believe, a mix of wishful thinking, mass hallucination and a bunch of other things. I don't believe there is anything much of God there.
Now in a sense, that doesn't matter: I can appreciate and get nice spiritual feelings when listening to Handel so why shouldn't someone do that in a NW-style service? So in one sense it isn't all bad if it isn't actually doing anything bad.
I think the problem is when you restructure your whole existence (individually and as a church) around these kinds of experiences.
To me, the best way to explain it is that it is an addictive spiritual drug. It draws you in, attempts to exclude other inputs, and leaves you wanting more.
That's not a healthy form of religion IMO. Of course, it isn't the only unhealthy spiritual obsession.
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arse
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. God is never served by division. This is not a new heresy, but that doesn't stop it's being a delusion.
Rubbish. Let me introduce you to the multitude of churches who are not Anglican (but in some sense came out of the Anglicans) but who do a pretty good job of serving God.
I'm not denying that. God lives with and works with the foul-ups we make. I still think God would rather we/they had not split.
Both sides of the Great Schism contributed to it and both sides of the Reformation contributed to the split. In the case of both divisions, it would be better if there was still one church and not a multitude of bickering sects each claiming to be the one true lot.
There are too many divisions as it is. Anyone who contributes to, or advocates, yet another one is dividing the kingdom, not furthering it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm not denying that. God lives with and works with the foul-ups we make. I still think God would rather we/they had not split.
I disagree. I think God is well pleased with the way some have bloomed since being released from the bonds of historical denominations.
quote:
Both sides of the Great Schism contributed to it and both sides of the Reformation contributed to the split. In the case of both divisions, it would be better if there was still one church and not a multitude of bickering sects each claiming to be the one true lot.
Well the bickering is indeed unnecessary. But sometimes people are just better off apart. I see absolutely no benefit in people being miserable together when they can grow and blossom apart.
quote:
There are too many divisions as it is. Anyone who contributes to, or advocates, yet another one is dividing the kingdom, not furthering it.
Thanks for your opinion. I'm just glad God is bigger than the version of him you keep in your pocket.
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arse
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I agree it would be better if no groups claimed that they were the One True Church outside of which there is no hope of salvation. But when the one church does that, what do you do? When the one united church is wrong, is it better to stay or to change?
Christianity is not about systems and structures. It is about engaging with God within your own culture. So it seems that a single, global church is a mistake. In fact, a single national church is a mistake. Our culture is multifaceted and churches should reflect that, something that is theoretically possible within one organisation, but practically seems not to be.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Rocinante
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# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
A former church-warden here 'came-out'as gay recently and the vicar convened a special meeting of the leadership team to discuss the issue. He was told that he was welcome to participate, receive communion, play the organ ... but if he ever found a boyfriend he'd be barred from holding office or contributing publicly to the life of the church ...
I've wondered whether this was a 'line' coming from New Wine.
Every so often I have a pang of regret that I have left charismatic evangelicalism behind, but this thread and particularly this post have reminded me powerfully that it's only the last vestiges of Stockholm Syndrome.
How can it be acceptable behaviour in any organisation to convene a meeting on the subject of somebody's sexuality, and for the outcome to be an attempt to curtail that person's freedom? If this behaviour is typical of NW practice, then that organisation has clearly drifted a long, long way from anything resembling a Christian worldview. They are lost in a wilderness of mirrors where wrong things look right.
I'm not surprised if the leader is in some sort of personal trouble. To lead such an organisation must require you to talk and think in ways which are deeply psychologically damaging.
[ 04. February 2016, 13:56: Message edited by: Rocinante ]
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think the problem is when you restructure your whole existence (individually and as a church) around these kinds of experiences.
To me, the best way to explain it is that it is an addictive spiritual drug. It draws you in, attempts to exclude other inputs, and leaves you wanting more.
That's not a healthy form of religion IMO. Of course, it isn't the only unhealthy spiritual obsession.
I'm in complete agreement with you on all three points. Folks who become inward looking and needy consumers of religious highs are in a lot of trouble. And those who pander to those needs even more so.
On the other hand, there seems to me to be everything right in recognising that the honest, spontaneous, expression of joy and sorrow does not have to be self-indulgent. In worship terms, it needs to be other-directed. In terms of service to one another, weeping with those who weep and rejoicing with those who rejoice seem to be ways in which we actively express our love for others.
But I think your concerns about addiction and manipulation (even self-manipulation) are spot on.
[ 04. February 2016, 14:03: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
I guess it's all just another case of New Wine in Old Bottles!
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I think we have to be very careful in the way we judge or assess other people's worship experiences - and also our own. Of whatever stripe and style.
I also think we need to be very careful - and I'm looking at you mr cheesy - ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) - when asserting we think we know how God 'thinks' about this, that or the other.
We none of us have any idea what God 'thinks' about people remaining in particular ecclesial structures or leaving them. Whatever answer we come up with on that one - whether he's pleased/displeased approves/disapproves probably says a lot more about us than it says about the Almighty.
Coming back to the worship thing ... yes, I think it's possible for charismatic worship to become delusional and almost self-hypnotic ... that used to happen to me at times when I was a full-on charismatic ... although I could sense it happening at times and would 'pull-back' from it.
Of course, it wasn't always like that and 9 times out of 10 it was no more hypnotic or delusional than what you might find in any more 'conventional' or mainstream style of church - only with more up-tempo songs.
I can imagine some people becoming all oozy-woozy and carried away at t'other end of the spectrum - with bells, smells and chant. Although, with that side of things there's often a bit of discomfort - hard pew, standing up for a good while etc to stop you being lulled into a trance-like state ...
Of course, we are wrong to evaluate any form of worship by the palpable 'hit' or buzz we may or may not get out of it. That's not the point.
What I do find disingenuous about some forms of charismatic expression, though, is that it's billed and punted as something spontaneous and unplanned when very often it's exactly the opposite. At least with more bells and smells type services everyone there knows it's a ritual, that there is a certain amount of stylised behaviour and that particular things are meant to happen at particular times ...
They aren't being 'conned' into thinking that it's all happening as if by magic ...
I'm not against joy and spontaneity. I'm not against exuberance. I am against the deliberate manipulation of emotions in order to achieve a particular effect.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
To lighten the load a bit, I'm pretty sure Adrian Plass wrote in one of his "diary book" series about a fictional book entitled "Spontaneous Worship; (How to Ensure it happens every time)". Something like that, anyway. It made me smile.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
There is a reason I called my blog "New Whine".
I am not against charismatic worship. I have enjoyed it and benefited from it - I was a long-time Spring Harvest attender, and relished the style of worship there. I also enjoyed a lot of the talks and teaching, because there was some very helpful insights - not always because I agreed with them. Sometime, they helped me think why I disagreed.
For me, the problem in the last decade or so is that this wing of the church has gone down a theological line that I cannot accept (anti women leaders, anti alternative sexuality). They have driven me away because they have aligned with one part of the charismatic evangelical church. And I go to the very dodgy Greenbelt instead.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
To lighten the load a bit, I'm pretty sure Adrian Plass wrote in one of his "diary book" series about a fictional book entitled "Spontaneous Worship; (How to Ensure it happens every time)". Something like that, anyway. It made me smile.
John Leach (now of Lincoln Diocese)in his book "Liturgy and Freedom" says that worship should be a "spontaneous planned Spirit-filled happening". A bit existentialist for some, I suspect, but not a bad idea!
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think we have to be very careful in the way we judge or assess other people's worship experiences - and also our own. Of whatever stripe and style.
I also think we need to be very careful - and I'm looking at you mr cheesy - - when asserting we think we know how God 'thinks' about this, that or the other.
We none of us have any idea what God 'thinks' about people remaining in particular ecclesial structures or leaving them. Whatever answer we come up with on that one - whether he's pleased/displeased approves/disapproves probably says a lot more about us than it says about the Almighty.
Well this is fair. I believe in a loving God who wants the best of us and that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.
So for me the litmus test of the Almighty's view of a church split is whether it encourages growth of the people involved - which, incidentally is also my view of divorce. Sometimes it is just unavoidable and the best possible outcome.
I hold no candles for any particular church structure, if they've exhausted their use, then maybe they should be thrown away. And, in my defence, I was responding to the comments of Enoch that talking about a split was "wrong, wrong, wrong".
Of course, I also appreciate that splitting is an unhealthy repeated pattern to get into. Both/and (or the reverse - neither/nor?) as someone here is fond of saying.
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arse
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure, I get that, mr cheesy.
I've heard Big T Tradition guys say that if there are abusive or awkward situations in their own circles then people have ever right to get out for the benefit of their well-being.
So it is a both/and thing - but I see Enoch's point because splits and separations are so common in some sections of Protestantism.
Meanwhile, as Adrian Plass wrote, 'Let's have a spontaneous round of applause after the next chorus.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
According to this from 2012, there is a net loss of between 100 and 200 stipendiary clergy every year from the Church of England - table 7
I really like the way they give page numbers in the index without putting page numbers on the page.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I can assure posters that there are just as unhealthy and extreme churches on the con-evo/Oakhill/Sydney Anglican end of the scale. Many New Wine/Vineyard etc churches look downright liberal in comparison.
As someone who spent formative Christian years in the former type of churches, informal charismatic churches have been helpful and liberating for me. I'm not a charismatic, but places where emotions are seen as part of God's blessing rather than part of one's sinful nature and to be quashed have been good to me.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I'm not a charismatic, but places where emotions are seen as part of God's blessing rather than part of one's sinful nature and to be quashed have been good to me.
There is always this "happy medium" when it comes to emotional intelligence and sensitivity. Some people are frightened of feelings, some wallow in them! Making sure bruised reeds don't get broken is an important pastoral art.
Some folks in churches prefer to speak the truth with LOVE; some seem to prefer to speak the TRUTH with love. Some seem to have no idea when it's right just to be there and say nothing at all.
I think we need to learn what it means to apply equal weight to truth and love in all our conversations. It seem to help if we listen more, speak less, and avoid rushing to either judgment or platitude.
IME not all charismatics are extravert, but a lot are. I well remember the flamboyant Gerald Coates observing (from Revelation) that there would be "silence in heaven for half an hour". He turned to his audience and quipped "and that's all you're going to get!". Well, I hope not. Peace and quiet are very helpful for bruised reeds and most of us know that territory.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Heh heh ... yes, the 'silence in heaven for half an hour' thing was regularly trotted out in the restorationist church I was involved with - not one of Gerald's - as a proof-text for making as much noise as possible.
I agree that not all charismatics are extrovert - and I also agree with Pomona that a smidgeon of this sort of thing can do you some good ...
I'm one of these odd people who has both introvert and extrovert tendencies ... although perhaps that's not particularly rare, I don't know.
I like to 'perform' and be centre-stage at times ... I often 'lead' and 'front' arty-farty events and poetry readings etc. I'm actually a very shy person though. The charismatic thing did help me to boost my confidence and to be bolder in my approach to job interviews and so on ...
The downside was that it also played into certain Stockholm Syndrome-ish aspects of my character ... a tendency to beat myself up, to defer to 'charismatic' authority figures - even against my better judgement and so on.
I'm not singling charismatic churches out for particular censure. Had I been in a more conservative or a more sacramental setting, then there might have been equal and opposite pit-falls.
We're never going to be free of lumps and bumps until we all reach Glory ... to use an old-school phrase.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
These muttered warnings of groupings who might or might not leave the C/E is like so much market place gossip.
No group of ordained C/E ministers will leave the C/E anytime soon. At leat not without sorting their pension first. And that will take time + a lot of publicity.
We're all in this thing together for a good long while yet........
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