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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Church, without God.
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
... As a baby Atheist ...
To me you sound a very grown up one.
Thankyou ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I don't use the term to mean immature particularly more just new. This time last year I'd have been horrified if someone described me as an Atheist now I see it as more or less accurate.
I also understand and agree with what Starbelly said, both about the journey being life changing and also about the vital difference between belief and action. Again I might 'look' like a Christian in some of my social actions (and very much not like one in others) but that motivation has to be grounded in faith in Christ for it to be authentically Christian and I don't have that.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
If you were drawing from memory re Matt. 25, I would say it has served you well!
Thanks, it has (though less good now).
I knew it was in Matthew and looked it up. Probably in Luke as well? I recall I always preferred Luke though I remember it in less detail. Must read them again. Because of the exam syllabus we never did John - or indeed anything else in the NT.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
cliffdweller
fletcher Christian
perfect
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
... but that motivation has to be grounded in faith in Christ for it to be authentically Christian and I don't have that.
This seems to interlock with Matthew 25 (see discussion a bit up the thread) as well. Though the technicalities of that discussion have already lost me!
I wonder how precisely Jesus knew what it would mean for others to be "authentically Christian". Or indeed if he cared that much about the details as long as the hungry ate, the thirsty drank etc.
PS In my first post I used 'grown up' to mean an attitude to life rather than maturity as age. I have the latter but often lack the former!
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I would agree they're not the same thing, although I believe they are related. But the definition of "Christian" is what we're debating here. I would say the definition "follower of Christ" and/or "member of God's Kingdom" is every bit as valid as the definition "member of the Church".
But it's really being redefined here, as in Victorian England, as "a truly decent chap who's good to others." Which robs the word of all specific meaning.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I would agree they're not the same thing, although I believe they are related. But the definition of "Christian" is what we're debating here. I would say the definition "follower of Christ" and/or "member of God's Kingdom" is every bit as valid as the definition "member of the Church".
But it's really being redefined here, as in Victorian England, as "a truly decent chap who's good to others." Which robs the word of all specific meaning.
No, it's being defined as a "member of the Kingdom"-- and that is being defined by Matt. 25. Now, I will grant there are other passages of Scripture that could be used to define it otherwise, but in regards to Matt. 25, I think that seems to be an accurate representation of what Jesus seems to be saying there.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I love the way a discussion about what things would be like if it was proved that God doesn't exist has turned into one about who will enter His Kingdom.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I don't think these definitions make any sense.
Are we really going to say that Origen ir Arius cannot be considered to be a Christian because it was later decided that his Christology was unorthodox?
OK I accept they were heretics, but they were Christian heretics (rather than any other kind of heretic), but clearly they had a position and influence in the early church.
Is it so unbelievable that those Christians martyred under the Romans, crucified every mile out of Rome or fed to lions may not have had fully Orthodox views on topics that were not sorted out by the church councils for several hundred years?
Or more recent examples: are we going to suggest that Bunyan and George Fox were not Christians because they were not part of the Established religion? How about Leo Tolstoy, Dosteovsky? Yes, these writers had unorthodox Christian views (in both senses of the word) but are we going to deny that they had anything to do with Christianity?
Were these really saying that these we doing anything much different to the disciples and early followers of Christ - in the sense of developing church and praxy from various principles (they felt were) revealed to them?
ISTM that nobody calling themselves a "Christian atheist" is saying anything that well-placed historical self defined Christian hasn't already said in the early part of the Christian era, and arguably they're saying things that gospel characters themselves argued for.
We can all play this game where we believe that we're the only person with the skills and authority to tell others when they're correctly using the term Christian. Let's not do that - the fact is that people use the term in different ways. We don't have to like or agree with them.
[ 14. February 2016, 08:53: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But it's really being redefined here, as in Victorian England, as "a truly decent chap who's good to others." Which robs the word of all specific meaning.
The (pre-Victorian) Lord Shaftesbury wrote - I paraphrase - "If you say that someone is a good man, you won't be asked if he is a Christian. If you say someone is a Christian you will be asked if he is also a good man" (in "An Inquiry concerning Virtue, or Merit")
To be a "decent chap who's good to others" is more than I can usually manage. I think the rest will always be an irrelevance to me.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I don't think God is the problem really, about Christianity. Well, OK, it is a problem for atheists, or rather an irrelevance. But I think salvation is the problem, or rather the premise for salvation, which is that something is wrong.
OK, I can relate that to stuff like alienation and loneliness, and cruelty. But do I have to be saved from those things? They made me what I am.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I AM extrapolating and interpolating 'down' from the failed Christian leadership of Andrew, Justin and George (and old George and the unspeakably vile Kirill). I hear NONE of their acolytes daring to speak out against their warmongering.
You do?
I don't even know who you're talking about Martin. Andrew? George? Old George? Unless the latter is George Carey, this American Presbyterian is clueless—which leaves me really clueless about who their acolytes are or what they may or may not be saying.
I do know who Justin and Kyrill are, but mainly from the news (particularly regarding the primates and The Episcopal Church) and the Ship. So again, no, I have little direct knowledge of them and no clue what their "acolytes" are up to.
Which illustrates my point. You're speaking, it seems, from your experience of a particular slice of clergy—some of whom you have direct experience with and some of whom (Russian clergy) I'm guessing you don't—and passing judgment on "the clergy" as a whole.
I don't believe I know any CofE clergy. I do, though, know way more Presbyterian clergy than I can count. (Shoot, I may be kin to more than I can count.) and I know or have known quite a few Methodist and Episcopal clergy over the years, with a few Catholic and Lutheran clergy thrown in for good measure. I can't speak to your experience. But I can tell you that my experience with the clergy I have known does not bear out in any way the accusations you have made. That's why I take issue with your generalized denunciation of "the clergy."
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I speak, barely hyperbolically, barely in caricature, barely in bitterness, about the appalling global vacuum in Christian leadership from the top down.
But... the sort of leadership you're seeking, the sort of leadership I believe God is calling us to-- is not "top down" leadership. It's (to quote a different book by Boyd you might find more appealing) "power under" leadership rather than "power over." That seems to be the sort of leadership fletcher Christian is describing. If you're looking only at the "top down" Christian leadership in the UK or anywhere else (this is incredibly so in the US) you will miss it altogether.
Yes.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by starbelly:
Well if we are defining a christian as someone who follows their conscience and does good things in the world then I am a christian to0, as is our old friend Richard Dawkins, but I thought, and call me crazy here, that it had something to do with belief in God and a lot to do with faith in that Jesus guy?
Neil
Ah, but there are different ways of believing in the Jesus guy. If your type of Christianity is believing that we should follow in the path of Jesus and try to live life as he taught, then you are following a strong framework for life. This framework applies whether or not Jesus ultimately was who he (or often others) says he was - as you are following the path of a great teacher. This option would still apply even if the premise of the OP came to pass. It is following the way during this life on earth, regardless of whether there is a heavenly future for the followers.
Following such a way of life, outlined above, is a completely different matter from those who, believing in some kind of supernatural Jesus, would be devastated if he was found not to exist.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Or more recent examples: are we going to suggest that Bunyan and George Fox were not Christians because they were not part of the Established religion? How about Leo Tolstoy, Dosteovsky? Yes, these writers had unorthodox Christian views (in both senses of the word) but are we going to deny that they had anything to do with Christianity?
Who on earth as suggested any such thing? Or at least, who on this thread? This is a straw man of epic proportions.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I AM extrapolating and interpolating 'down' from the failed Christian leadership of Andrew, Justin and George (and old George and the unspeakably vile Kirill). I hear NONE of their acolytes daring to speak out against their warmongering.
You do?
I don't even know who you're talking about Martin. Andrew? George? Old George? Unless the latter is George Carey, this American Presbyterian is clueless—which leaves me really clueless about who their acolytes are or what they may or may not be saying.
I do know who Justin and Kyrill are, but mainly from the news (particularly regarding the primates and The Episcopal Church) and the Ship. So again, no, I have little direct knowledge of them and no clue what their "acolytes" are up to.
Which illustrates my point. You're speaking, it seems, from your experience of a particular slice of clergy—some of whom you have direct experience with and some of whom (Russian clergy) I'm guessing you don't—and passing judgment on "the clergy" as a whole.
I don't believe I know any CofE clergy. I do, though, know way more Presbyterian clergy than I can count. (Shoot, I may be kin to more than I can count.) and I know or have known quite a few Methodist and Episcopal clergy over the years, with a few Catholic and Lutheran clergy thrown in for good measure. I can't speak to your experience. But I can tell you that my experience with the clergy I have known does not bear out in any way the accusations you have made. That's why I take issue with your generalized denunciation of "the clergy."
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I speak, barely hyperbolically, barely in caricature, barely in bitterness, about the appalling global vacuum in Christian leadership from the top down.
But... the sort of leadership you're seeking, the sort of leadership I believe God is calling us to-- is not "top down" leadership. It's (to quote a different book by Boyd you might find more appealing) "power under" leadership rather than "power over." That seems to be the sort of leadership fletcher Christian is describing. If you're looking only at the "top down" Christian leadership in the UK or anywhere else (this is incredibly so in the US) you will miss it altogether.
Yes.
OK Nick, sorry to have been so Anglo-centric. You got George Carey as well as Justin Welby and Kirill - Vladimir Mikhailovich Gundyayev. Most impressive. Andrew (White - the 'Vicar of Baghdad'), Justin (Welby) and George (Bergoglio - AKA Francis), as in Marvin Gaye's Abraham, Martin and John. My little parody. The 'top' guys - George, Kirill, Justin - have acolytes in the looser sense of hierarchical followers with the undertone of mere candle lighters.
They are ALL, to a man, warmongers. ALL of the troops they command are.
I'm very glad to know that none of the Presbyterians, Episcopalians = Anglicans, Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists on your side of the pond, is even a passive warmonger. Pity we can't hear them over here, proclaiming peace and justice for all, speaking out against power, leading the way, laying down their privilege as they obviously are. Or must be.
We DO hear Bernie Sanders and we have Jeremy Corbyn. Neither of whom are Christians, thank God!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
'm very glad to know that none of the Presbyterians, Episcopalians = Anglicans, Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists on your side of the pond, is even a passive warmonger. Pity we can't hear them over here, proclaiming peace and justice for all, speaking out against power, leading the way, laying down their privilege as they obviously are. Or must be.
Martin, I frankly have no idea whether you'd say that none are even "passive warmongers," since you seem to use "warmonger" much more broadly than I would. (Though I know a number who I think would pass your test pretty easily.) That said, I know relatively few who "very rarely get real, honest, raw, inclusive," which was your initial charge against the clergy.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Pity we can't hear them over here, proclaiming peace and justice for all, speaking out against power, leading the way, laying down their privilege as they obviously are. Or must be.
We DO hear Bernie Sanders and we have Jeremy Corbyn. Neither of whom are Christians, thank God!
This seems like the corollary of blaming Muslims for not more loudly condemning terrorism when no-one will cover their marches.
Are you seriously sniping away at Nick's pacifist clergy for not having the same public platform as Bernie Sanders? And how would you feel about the church spending its money to give bishops a public platform for their political views?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Delighted if they were the politics of God.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Difficult to determine that. Maybe we should provide a substantial slice of the Church's finding to you for your political views as the next best approximation? After all, the poor we have with us always.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
'm very glad to know that none of the Presbyterians, Episcopalians = Anglicans, Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists on your side of the pond, is even a passive warmonger. Pity we can't hear them over here, proclaiming peace and justice for all, speaking out against power, leading the way, laying down their privilege as they obviously are. Or must be.
Martin, I frankly have no idea whether you'd say that none are even "passive warmongers," since you seem to use "warmonger" much more broadly than I would. (Though I know a number who I think would pass your test pretty easily.) That said, I know relatively few who "very rarely get real, honest, raw, inclusive," which was your initial charge against the clergy.
I know a number of pacifist clergy. Most of course are Mennonite or other denominations that are committed to that lifestyle as an entire community. Others are working to promote pacifism within their own communities. Because of the virtues associated with those who choose pacifism, it's difficult to identify pacifist "leaders"-- but that says more about our *ffed up views of leadership than about the leaders themselves. Some who stand out here in the US are Shane Clairborne, Jim Wallis, and until recently, the late Glen Stassen (a huge loss to us all). Walter Wink and Greg Boyd (who Martin is familiar with) have both written systematic theologies to give a theological foundation for their pacifist pov (as well as to clarify that pacifism ≠ passivity.)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The politics of God are difficult for you?
I don't find them so. Now. Took a while.
Shane, Jim, Walter and Greg - the joker in the pack - I know. And Rob and Brian and Nadia and Tony and Roger and Rachel and Brené and Oprah and ... Over here we only have Steve.
Some times one man's all you need. Look at Chuck Norris.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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DonLogan2
Shipmate
# 15608
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Posted
"My question is, on this Sunday, and the weeks and months and years that follow what would happen to the Church."
No idea and not interested, I`d be out doing whatever I wanted and if you get in my way, to quote Mr.T "I pity the fool!" If this is the only life I will have then I will immediately revert to the animalistic nature I followed for so many years before I was a Christian, end of.
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“I have of late, but wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth... "
Posts: 359 | From: the very depths | Registered: Apr 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
There is no point to a church without God. God is its reason for being.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DonLogan2:
No idea and not interested, I`d be out doing whatever I wanted and if you get in my way, to quote Mr.T "I pity the fool!" If this is the only life I will have then I will immediately revert to the animalistic nature I followed for so many years before I was a Christian, end of.
Plenty of atheists/non Christians live a good life dedicated to others, I don't see it as either Christian or animalistic at all!.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I think we've enough of a sample size to conclude being Christian (or Buddhist, Jewish,Muslim, Hindu, Wiccan, etc) doesn't make better people in general.
Some use those as tools to better themselves, but if you use them to restrain yourself, you've learned nothing.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
but if you use them to restrain yourself, you've learned nothing.
That sounds very high minded, but I have to admit to having all sorts of base impulses that need restraining. Is it really possible to get rid of them all?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
but if you use them to restrain yourself, you've learned nothing.
That sounds very high minded, but I have to admit to having all sorts of base impulses that need restraining. Is it really possible to get rid of them all?
Of course not. But if the rules are all that is restraining you from behaving like an animal as donlogan states, then you are not absorbing the lessons being taught.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Christianity isn't a rule. Where did talk of rules come into your argument? We were talking about people using religion - which includes lessons, belief, practice, theology... some of which produces rules. I find that package restrains some of my worst instincts.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
If, released from the oversight of a controller, one would abandon one's principles, it is my contention that one does not truly follow them. This is not to say one should be perfect or never need reference guidelines. But to leave them suggests one never truly believed them.
I will admit that I fail my own guidelines constantly. It doesn't mean that I do not try to maintain them. And will do so regardless of any proofs of enlightenment.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
You've dropped "rules" from the argument and now used the word "controller". Why should religion be described as a "controller" and a non-religious sense of ethical duty be called "principles"?
To me religion includes principles - so you might as well say "If you need principles to control your actions then you're doing it wrong."
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
You've dropped "rules" from the argument and now used the word "controller". Why should religion be described as a "controller" and a non-religious sense of ethical duty be called "principles"?
To me religion includes principles - so you might as well say "If you need principles to control your actions then you're doing it wrong."
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
If God is out of the picture, how will that change your behaviour?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, one problem here is that if God is real (as we maintain), then it's logically impossible for us (Christians) to answer your question. How would I be different if God were not here, living within me? I am certain that he makes a helluva difference (ouch, pun). But as I have no experience of being myself without God (bar my pre-conversion years long ago, which were hell), how am I going to compare my life-with-God-now to my-postulated-life-with-no-God-out-there?
It's sort of like asking people, who would you be if you weren't you? Or, if you weren't [insert gender, race, age, or any other major defining characteristic] Without even the possibility of experiencing the opposite, how can it be answered?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If God is out of the picture, how will that change your behaviour?
Oh I get it, you think God is the controller and the rule maker. Well no, sorry, my religion doesn't work like that.
I look to Jesus for an example of a way to live, and I think I would find much of it equally instructive even if God was out of the picture. But believing the gospel stories to be literally true gives that extra force in my life and no doubt I would fail even more often than I currently do if I didn't have that encouragement.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If God is out of the picture, how will that change your behaviour?
Oh I get it, you think God is the controller and the rule maker. Well no, sorry, my religion doesn't work like that.
More precisely, I think some of your fellow believers think that.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I look to Jesus for an example of a way to live, and I think I would find much of it equally instructive even if God was out of the picture. But believing the gospel stories to be literally true gives that extra force in my life and no doubt I would fail even more often than I currently do if I didn't have that encouragement.
Fair enough.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Oh I get it, you think God is the controller and the rule maker. Well no, sorry, my religion doesn't work like that.
More precisely, I think some of your fellow believers think that.
If God isn't the controller and rule maker, then what in blazes was all that "Ten Commandments" stuff about?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Controller of what? What rules? Quantum indeterminacy? That kindness is its own reward?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Oh I get it, you think God is the controller and the rule maker. Well no, sorry, my religion doesn't work like that.
More precisely, I think some of your fellow believers think that.
If God isn't the controller and rule maker, then what in blazes was all that "Ten Commandments" stuff about?
All of us make rules, all the time. You can borrow my car, but must fill up the tank when you return it. You can eat in the dining room, but not in the den. You need to wait at a stop sign until it's your turn to proceed. We even make rules for our own selves: "I will only have one small piece of pie, and not until I've finished my dinner".
But the fact that as parents, spouses, employers, communities, or individuals we make rules of varying importance/purpose, is quite different than saying we ARE rule makers as our sole identity. Do parents make rules? Sure. Is the primary function, identity and purpose of a parent to make rules? Hopefully not.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Thanks Cliffdweller. Added to that, the in blazes bit was "I am that I am" - the ten commandments was in cloud.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If God isn't the controller and rule maker, then what in blazes was all that "Ten Commandments" stuff about?
Well, according to Jesus, the Ten Commandments (which in Hebrew are the "ten words" or "ten sayings") were all about loving God and loving neighbor.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
All of us make rules, all the time.
Very few of us punish those who break them with eternal damnation, though.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If God isn't the controller and rule maker, then what in blazes was all that "Ten Commandments" stuff about?
Well, according to Jesus, the Ten Commandments (which in Hebrew are the "ten words" or "ten sayings") were all about loving God and loving neighbor.
Do we have to obey them or not? Are they Commandments, or just Suggestions?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
All of us make rules, all the time.
Very few of us punish those who break them with eternal damnation, though.
Of course not. And neither does God.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
All of us make rules, all the time.
Very few of us punish those who break them with eternal damnation, though.
Of course not. And neither does God.
That is very much not a universal Christian viewpoint.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
All of us make rules, all the time.
Very few of us punish those who break them with eternal damnation, though.
Of course not. And neither does God.
That is very much not a universal Christian viewpoint.
Really? You know a lot of Christians who believe God sends people to hell for breaking the 10 commandments? As regular shipmates know, I run in some pretty conservative circles, and I don't know any.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
You know a lot of Christians who believe God sends people to hell for breaking the 10 commandments?
Yep. Especially people who break the first couple.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
You know a lot of Christians who believe God sends people to hell for breaking the 10 commandments?
Yep. Especially people who break the first couple.
hmmm... the more conservative of my evangelical brethren will say "rejecting Christ" will get you that ticket to the nether regions, which could of course be interpreted as breaking the first couple of commandments. But they would vehemently protest framing that as punishment for "breaking rules", but rather as the logical consequences of breaking relationship with God. Again, I don't know anyone who thinks (at least explicitly) your eternal destiny is based on "rule keeping"-- most would say that Christianity is based on our inability to keep the rules, and thus the need for a Savior.
And of course, quite a few of us reject even that paradigm.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
You know a lot of Christians who believe God sends people to hell for breaking the 10 commandments?
Yep. Especially people who break the first couple.
Boggles, doesn't it? On this very site we've had people argue that not believing in God condemns one to hell and those are generally part of the argument.
5 of the frickin things are about giving Big Daddy his props.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
As an aside I don't think any of the 10 commandments say "Thou shalt believe in God". I've never heard a Christian argue that anyone getting involved in a graven image is on a ticket to hell. The more usual position is that an unrepentant sinner without the saving blood of the lamb is on a ticket to hell, irrespective of the scale of the sin. But I don't think anyone here is arguing that.
I'm sure we can come up with all sorts of versions of Christianity that look very rule based but since no-one is arguing that here it's not a very fruitful strawman to go for.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
5 of the frickin things are about giving Big Daddy his props.
pedantic point: 4, actually. And even #4 is debatable: I would argue that the Sabbath-rule belongs with the "loving neighbor" piece rather than the "loving God" piece.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If God isn't the controller and rule maker, then what in blazes was all that "Ten Commandments" stuff about?
Well, according to Jesus, the Ten Commandments (which in Hebrew are the "ten words" or "ten sayings") were all about loving God and loving neighbor.
Do we have to obey them or not? Are they Commandments, or just Suggestions?
I wouldn't necessarily say that they are either. Standards? Expectations? Instructions or Teachings (which is what Torah means) about how to be in right relationship to God and neighbor? Ways to walk or way to behave (which is what Halakha, usually translated "the law," literally means in Hebrew)?
I think it's interesting how the names we give things affect how we view those things.
[ 19. February 2016, 17:45: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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