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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Ecumenical movement
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Frankenstein
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# 16198
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Posted
In Scotland, for many years now, there has been the Ecomenical Movement.
Accepting that we differ on biblical interpretation, religious practice and style of worship, we find it impossible to pray under the same roof.
This is surely the minimum that the Christian Comunity should achieve?
[The spelling error in the title was bugging me. -Gwai]
[ 09. March 2016, 01:23: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
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Sipech
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# 16870
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Posted
Do you mean ecumenical, or have you combined this with economical or ecological to create a portmanteau?
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Frankenstein
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# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Do you mean ecumenical, or have you combined this with economical or ecological to create a portmanteau?
Ecumenical, yes.
My spelling is even more dodgy than my theology.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
In my time I've seen more rows caused by forced ecumenical events that I care to think of.
One that particularly sticks in the mind (a highlight if you will) was c 20 years ago: a rant from a baptist minister which ended up with him saying that the rest of us were all wrong, seemed to delight in our error and that hellfires awaited the RC's in particular.
This was at a youth event so you can imagine how helpful this was in our keeping teens who were already on the "there isn't really a God, church is for losers" kick.
I'm afraid I avoid all events advertised as 'Ecumenical' like the plague. In any case, if Judaism can accept that there are different strands (Sephardic and Hasidic) with variances within those, what is so different about different strands of Christianity - Western and Eastern - with sub-divisions?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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hatless
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# 3365
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Posted
Many churches do worship together, and many people support ecumenical events. Food banks, street pastors, chaplaincies, inter-faith groups, Christian book and coffee shops are more often ecumenical than not. Responses to the refugee crisis, too.
There is less enthusiasm for dialogue or union between denominations, but if you're going to start a new practical project why wouldn't you do it ecumenically?
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My crazy theology in novel form
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
There's lots of ecumenical stuff going on, although some churches choose not to be part of it. In this town (and many others) winter night shelters and street pastors are run ecumenically. Over Easter our own church will join with Anglicans on Palm Sunday, Methodists on Maundy Thursday, all central churches for a Good Friday witness, and with the Catholics for a Holy Saturday vigil. We also have Christian Aid.
Two things though: (1) Ecumenical services can be wordy, worthy, dull-as-ditchwater, lowest-common-denominator events; (2) the desire for all churches to merge (rather than work together in diversity) has died a death.
I also think Ecumenism is stronger in England than in Scotland, where partisan lines are still more clearly drawn.
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Frankenstein
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# 16198
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Posted
When I lived I in a village in Perthshire, we took part in Eucumenical weekly meetings, during Lent.
These were attended by Presbyterians, Episcopalian, Roman Catholic and Methodists (who had no place of worship in the community).
It was well organised and had a booklet prepared for the event.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
I can assure Frankenstein that there are many occasions,even in Scotland, where Christians of differing confessions worship together.
On 19th April in Edinburgh the Scottish Churches Trust will be meeting with members from all over Scotland and from many Christian denominations under the roof of St Mary's Metropolitan Cathedral (Roman Catholic) in the presence of the Church's Trust Patron, the Princess Royal.
Perhaps Frankenstein should come along.
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Frankenstein
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# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I can assure Frankenstein that there are many occasions,even in Scotland, where Christians of differing confessions worship together.
On 19th April in Edinburgh the Scottish Churches Trust will be meeting with members from all over Scotland and from many Christian denominations under the roof of St Mary's Metropolitan Cathedral (Roman Catholic) in the presence of the Church's Trust Patron, the Princess Royal.
Perhaps Frankenstein should come along.
I shall be there in spirit.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Two things though: (1) Ecumenical services can be wordy, worthy, dull-as-ditchwater, lowest-common-denominator events; (2) the desire for all churches to merge (rather than work together in diversity) has died a death.
My favourite ecumenical event was a musical one. The RCC and Anglican places contributed choir members and an organist, there were some salvation army brass and I think a Methodist guitarist and flute player.
We did some traditional hymns and some more modern choruses. The whole thing worked brilliantly because of a very talented musical director who had written parts and organized something quite clever. Without that it could have been awful.
The only show of disunity was the RCC and Anglican lot disappearing to the pub afterwards with a rump Methodist group and none of the Salvationists.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Two things have taught me almost all I know about ecumenism: the Ship, and prison.
I have just returned from an international prison chaplains' conference where I was privileged to give the closing sermon to an audience of protestants, catholics, and orthodox, plus a guest muslim and a guest sikh.
Prison chaplaincy is a great environment for practical ecumenism and interfaith work. Often, inmates of different religions share the same worship space, and are not infrequently banged up with someone of a different faith. You have little option but to get along. I'm convinced there are lessons there for the wider world.
It is difficult in countries with a largely dominant faith group though. I often say that for the Catholics, ecumenism in France is like a trip to the zoo. The hierarchy has very set ideas about what it is, and how it should be organised. I've frequently been in planning meetings where the Catholics have expected us to choose hymns from their set list of ecumenical hymns, none of which I know.
I once experienced an interesting reversal of this perspective at a conference where I befriended a Catholic chaplain working in Greece, where he was of course in the precise "oppressed minority" position a protestant finds themselves in in France.
All that said, I think the stakes are such that we have to find a way to get along. The challenges of issues such as religiously-justified terrorism and immigration need joint action to be addressed meaningfully, and they make DH issues pale into insignificance.
I also think they call for more interfaith action, too; as I've argued here before, I'm convinced that Islamic terrorism thrives on the exclusion of peaceable Islam.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
I have to say I'm among those who like the idea of ecumenism but find the practice of it to be rather unsatisfactory. Most of all I think it's best for ecumenical services to be held in ordinary time, not at major festivals. Holy week and Easter are not a good time to be trying to negotiate the pitfalls of who is willing to accept foot washing, who objects to the reserved sacrament, who thinks candles are a papist abomination and who thinks any music not played on the organ at half-speed might lead to dancing. Parcelling out the services to different denominations is equally as bad, turning up at a Good Friday service to be subjected to a rant from an ageing Calvinist about how those who rejected God's call at the revival in 1953 would never be given another chance and were going to hell for sure.
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Frankenstein
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# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Many churches do worship together, and many people support ecumenical events. Food banks, street pastors, chaplaincies, inter-faith groups, Christian book and coffee shops are more often ecumenical than not. Responses to the refugee crisis, too.
There is less enthusiasm for dialogue or union between denominations, but if you're going to start a new practical project why wouldn't you do it ecumenically?
Worshipping together was, in my experience, the least satisfactory aspect.
The post Vatican 2 Mass and the Episcopalian Eucaristic service as experienced by me, are very similar.
The Presbitarian service, as experienced by me, was more on the lines of 'Songs of Praise', with a sermon, and a prayer (to which the congregation did not say Amen).
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
It strikes me that there are possibly three types of Ecumenical service.
1. Very closely-scripted service from ecumenical organisations such as in the "Week of Prayer for Christian Unity" or the "Women's World Day of Prayer".
2. Lowest-common-denominator services in which each tradition chips in a bit, being very careful to omit anything that others might find difficult.
3. Services which are the "home church's" tradition but with others invited.
Here in our town centre we do the first and have recently made a conscious decision to do the third as well. Over time we will have joint services in each of our churches and expect them to be "learning experiences" for those outside the respective tradition. Hence we had a full service of Evensong plus Benediction at the Anglo-Catholic church - the Baptists and Methodists were a bit bemused but enjoyed it as a once-off. Of course we'll hope that the A/C folks will be prepared to join the Methodists next time round!
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Frankenstein
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# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
It strikes me that there are possibly three types of Ecumenical service.
1. Very closely-scripted service from ecumenical organisations such as in the "Week of Prayer for Christian Unity" or the "Women's World Day of Prayer".
2. Lowest-common-denominator services in which each tradition chips in a bit, being very careful to omit anything that others might find difficult.
3. Services which are the "home church's" tradition but with others invited.
Here in our town centre we do the first and have recently made a conscious decision to do the third as well. Over time we will have joint services in each of our churches and expect them to be "learning experiences" for those outside the respective tradition. Hence we had a full service of Evensong plus Benediction at the Anglo-Catholic church - the Baptists and Methodists were a bit bemused but enjoyed it as a once-off. Of course we'll hope that the A/C folks will be prepared to join the Methodists next time round!
It seems to me that you bring out the essential problem.
The Eucarist, which to the Roman and Anglcan Catholics, is the pivotal worship, is to some Protestant denomination, as I understand it, an event for special occasions.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Yes and no - for instance the "Breaking of Bread" is pivotal in the Christian Brethren tradition (not that they're likely to be involved in ecumenical events); on the other hand, you can certainly have "services of the Words" in the Anglican tradition. I'm not qualified to say about the RCs.
But surely the whole point of ecumenical worship is that one must be prepared to temporarily "give up something" - even something precious - in order to further good relations; and also to humbly learn about what is precious and important in other traditions. (This is NOT the same as giving up one's principles!)
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I think it's true that Communion is often the bit people feel most sensitive about in their own tradition - either in terms of perceived criticism of what they do, discomfort with what others do, or the dead horse of some traditions not feeling that open communion is theologically right. Without a value judgement either way, this leads to some Christians feeling pressurized to do something they feel isn't right, and others feeling excluded.
For all these reasons I think it is best to avoid Communion in ecumenical events.
Music is another area people feel sensitive about, but in my experience musicians are often much more flexible and keen to try out something new than one would expect. It does take someone with imagination to put very different traditions together though.
[ 08. March 2016, 11:50: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes and no - for instance the "Breaking of Bread" is pivotal in the Christian Brethren tradition (not that they're likely to be involved in ecumenical events); on the other hand, you can certainly have "services of the Words" in the Anglican tradition. I'm not qualified to say about the RCs.
But surely the whole point of ecumenical worship is that one must be prepared to temporarily "give up something" - even something precious - in order to further good relations; and also to humbly learn about what is precious and important in other traditions. (This is NOT the same as giving up one's principles!)
'Yes and no' is inevitable when dealing with many denominations.
I am not qualified to speak about any tradition other that of the Church of Rome.
The central worship in RCC circles is the Mass or Eucharist.
Any other service such as Benediction, Lauds, Vespers, are over and above.
A card carrying RCC hears mass once a week.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
Ecumenical community service is easier to navigate than ecumenical worship, for the reasons that have already been covered. Our local homeless shelter is an ecumenical effort, with congregants from all sorts of persuasions, as well as unaffiliated individuals, showing up each night to help set up cots and cook a hot dinner. Because of the opportunity for dialogue as we're working and the common goal, this probably goes a lot further to advance the cause than the fraught negotiations required of putting together a worship service. Not that ecumenical worship isn't a worthy goal, just that it might be more successful coming later in the process of dialogue, rather than as the first endeavor.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
cliffdweller: Ecumenical community service is easier to navigate than ecumenical worship
Some of us believe that community service is a form of worship ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
cliffdweller: Ecumenical community service is easier to navigate than ecumenical worship
Some of us believe that community service is a form of worship
Indeed.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
These days a card carrying RC would do more than 'hear Mass'. Such a person would participate more fully, even if it were only 'listening' rather
than simply 'hearing'.
These days there is no bar on card carrying RCs participating in the religious services of other Christians or even other faith groups.
Yes, a card carrying RC would not normally receive
Communion in a non Catholic church, but in Scotland many Christian communities rarely celebrate the Lord's supper.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Ecumenical community service is easier to navigate than ecumenical worship.
This is so true. We had 8 Muslims help with our Christmas day dinner this year
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Garden. Room. Walk
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
What is there to be ecumenical about in community service ? That seems to me like calling a soccer game or a concert ecumenical if people of various religious groups participate. The question of overcoming the religious differences between Christians doesn't arise in contexts where there is no specifically Christian content.
Not that people getting together to run a project is in any way a bad thing, but I don't see why one would want to call it ecumenism.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
What is there to be ecumenical about in community service ? That seems to me like calling a soccer game or a concert ecumenical if people of various religious groups participate. The question of overcoming the religious differences between Christians doesn't arise in contexts where there is no specifically Christian content.
Not that people getting together to run a project is in any way a bad thing, but I don't see why one would want to call it ecumenism.
If we understand it to be our common calling as Christians to care for the poor I think it does exactly that. It starts to build bridges. As I said, I'm not suggesting it instead of ecumenical worship, but rather as a prelude to ecumenical worship. It's helpful to have developed these sorts of relationships around common cause before you start to do the hard work of negotiating worship. (Same thing is true intergenerationally within a church as a prelude to negotiating the ever-so-fraught worship wars).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
(Same thing is true intergenerationally within a church as a prelude to negotiating the ever-so-fraught worship wars).
We interrupt your scheduled programming to complain about this unwarranted assumption. Please stop assuming that old people want style X and young people want style Y. It's just not true.
I'm entirely capable of having worship wars with my coaevals without the old'uns or young'ns needing to chip in.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Very true, I know better. Shuffling off and muttering under my breath in shame.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
In theory, ecumenical activity should encompass all that would happen in an individual church. So, as individual churches would engage in social action (either directly in running a soup kitchen or similar, or indirectly through fund raising) so also there should be an ecumenical version of that. Individual churches would have social events, and there should be ecumenical social events. Individual churches would have fellowship groups (including Bible studies, prayer groups, womens guild etc) and there should also be ecumenical fellowship groups. Individual churches have formal worship services, and there should be ecumenical versions of those. And, there is nothing wrong with the ecumenical version replacing the individual church events.
Quite often we fall into two mistakes.
One is that the ecumenical events become something extra. So, you have a Wednesday Bible Study in your church, and there's an ecumenical one on Thursday. One Saturday your church has a coffee morning, and there's an ecumenical concert the following week. Few people have time or energy to do everything, and the ecumenical events become something just for those who are particularly keen, and as energy flags they tend to fall by the wayside. There is often a need for individual churches to sacrifice some of their own programme to allow the ecumenical programme to flourish.
The other mistake we make is to focus on just one aspect of the life of a church. So, we organise ecumenical services (and stumble over the issues of Communion or music style) without any social or fellowship programme. Or, we have ecumenical soup kitchens, but never meet for social or fellowship groups. We need larger ranging ecumenical programmes.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
a card carrying RC would not normally receive
Communion in a non Catholic church
Is it only here that RCs have a closed table? At masses I've attended in an official protestant capacity, representatives of non-Catholic confessions are corralled and someone hangs around to ensure you don't go up to receive the host. Our local bishop stomps on any attempt to derogate, e.g. in prison.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Quite often we fall into two mistakes.
One is that the ecumenical events become something extra. ... There is often a need for individual churches to sacrifice some of their own programme to allow the ecumenical programme to flourish.
The other mistake we make is to focus on just one aspect of the life of a church. ... We have ecumenical soup kitchens, but never meet for social or fellowship groups.
I'm not saying that we've got it right ... but we do seem to do a bit better than that.
For instance, our Palm Sunday joint service is our "main" service that day and alternates between our building and the parish church (of course some folk from both churches see it as an opportunity for a "day off" ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) !) The Ecumenical "Week of Prayer" service replaces our normal evening service (not that that's usually well-attended!) And we take part in things like the Winter Night Shelter project.
Conversely attendance at the Easter Saturday Catholic Vigil (their church is literally next door to ours) is "extra". We've also been invited to share discussion on "worship" with the local Quakers (tonight, as it happens) but that is a one-off, initiated by them for their own good reasons.
Possibly we do this because we are largely URC which has "ecumenical" built-in to its DNA.
[ 09. March 2016, 07:42: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Is it only here that RCs have a closed table? At masses I've attended in an official protestant capacity, representatives of non-Catholic confessions are corralled and someone hangs around to ensure you don't go up to receive the host.
Certainly we can't take Communion at the RC church next door ... so much for it being a feast which binds together God's family! (We ourselves have "open" communion, so it would be up to any visiting Catholic to decide for themselves whether to receive. They could, I suppose, decide that what we're offering isn't a "proper" sacrament and so could be received as a simple remembrance of Jesus' death, if you see what I mean).
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Certainly we can't take Communion at the RC church next door ... so much for it being a feast which binds together God's family!
Exactly. One of my protestant colleagues describes such events as "inviting someone to lunch and not allowing them to eat"!
A lot of 'official' ecumenical events in France seem to consist in large measure of breast-beating by the catholics due to the prohibition on them sharing communion with us.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The RCs are only the most prominent to practice closed communion. The Orthodox are also closed and you will also find small Protestant groups that still are.
Please remember that Open Communion where those not in fellowship with the congregation but with the wider Church are able to partake is only a late 19th Century invention.
Jengie
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Sorry for a second post, to elaborate further:
The Modern Ecumenical Movement is dated from the World Missionary Conference in Edinburgh in 1910. That is not to say there were not Ecumenical activity before that. There were earlier ones and indeed there are myths around this movement. At least as far as England is concerned this movement reached its peak in the early 1970s (No not just the URC, what the URC expected at formation was pretty soon after 1972 that Anglicans and Methodists would merge).
At the present, I regret that the attitude of various denominations that they will win if they are the last group in existence, however, small they are. However, I do think that formal Ecumenical discussions do need to be held in tension with the reshaping of the power structures of the Church and that we are anyway changing to a post-denominational Christendom.
Jengie
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I've joined for many years in World Day of Prayer services – the 'Women's' was dropped a few years ago and a number of men attend in our suburban church.
The ecumenical committees in different countries always seem to produce something that all participants can enjoy and benefit from taking part in.
This year Presbyterian, Anglican, Methodist and Catholic parishes were involved. The service as adapted for New Zealand included a Maori version of the Lord's Prayer which was partly chanted and partly sung, one which seems to have started with the cathedral choir and been taken up in local Anglican churches. It was beautiful; I hope we can learn it.
The only sour note was a few years ago in my holiday centre, when it was decided that it was the Catholic priest's turn to provide a sermon. He is an Irish octogenarian, carrying on because there is no one else to look after the local flock, and although he had it explained to him that the theme of the service was Forgiveness (or whatever) he subjected us, mainly older faithful church women, to a diatribe against the sexual immorality of contemporary society. Very embarrassing.
On the other hand, the mimed foot washing last year was very effective.
GG
Edited to tidy punctuation.
[ 09. March 2016, 08:23: Message edited by: Galloping Granny ]
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
At the present, I regret that the attitude of various denominations that they will win if they are the last group in existence, however, small they are. However, I do think that formal Ecumenical discussions do need to be held in tension with the reshaping of the power structures of the Church and that we are anyway changing to a post-denominational Christendom.
While I agree with that, I suspect that there are still many Catholics and Orthodox (at least) who regard their affiliation as fixed and strong, possibly because of nationality and birth. I don't know whether that would be true of younger people living in a country like Britain; it may well be lessening in Ireland; it could be strengthening in Romania.
Generally speaking, denominational affiliation here (England) is loose among under-40 Protestants, who will go to the church they "like" and don't regard themselves s Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans etc. However the actual word "ecumenical" turns them off: they'll happily go to a "town-wide celebration event" but not to an "Ecumenical service", as the latter carries the suggestion of dull fustiness and efforts to formulate joint constitutions and the like.
[ 09. March 2016, 08:33: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Albertus
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I'm afraid I avoid all events advertised as 'Ecumenical' like the plague. In any case, if Judaism can accept that there are different strands (Sephardic and Hasidic) with variances within those, what is so different about different strands of Christianity - Western and Eastern - with sub-divisions?
Same here. Especially services for the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, which for me is at best rather bland and woolly and worthy and at worst a bit National Brotherhood Week.
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Eutychus
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
The RCs are only the most prominent to practice closed communion. The Orthodox are also closed and you will also find small Protestant groups that still are.
Maybe, but around here I think they are the only ones to have the temerity to specifically invite non-Catholics to attend a mass from which the latter are excluded.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Albertus
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Posted
It's not as if they don't have non-eucharistic services at all, is it? They could invite people to Vespers, say, even if that's not a service they'd normally hold for themselves.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Eutychus
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Posted
That's what our local Orthodoxen have done in the past.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Forthview
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Eutychus - my experience of Catholics in France has always been that they are very welcoming to those non-Catholics who choose to come to Catholic services. Your experience, which will be greater than mine, seems to be different.
It is,however, not just a French idea, but a Catholic and indeed even more strongly an Orthodox idea ,that only those who are in full communion with the Church, should receive Communion.
The Catholic Church,but not the Orthodox Church,permits non-Catholic Christians to receive communion in a Catholic church,if a) they have a genuine desire to receive, b) if they have no access at that time to Communion in their own community c) if they believe essentially the same as Catholics about Communion.(If they don't believe the same as Catholics, what is the point of taking a Communion in which one does not believe ?
Yes,I know it may seem unkind if you are invited to take part in the Liturgy of the Word,but not allowed to participate fully in the Liturgy of the Sacrament,but remember that that pain of separation is also felt by Catholics.
In the last 50 years many steps have been taken to bring Christians together and in the next 50 many more will be taken.
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Albertus
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Posted
Don't know what Eutychus thinks about this: to me, all that is understood- but why, then, have a Mass as a supposedly ecumenical service, or at least as one to which you make a point of inviting people from other traditions? Why not something non-eucharistic?
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Eutychus
From the edge
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Eutychus - my experience of Catholics in France has always been that they are very welcoming to those non-Catholics who choose to come to Catholic services. Your experience, which will be greater than mine, seems to be different.
I worded my post carefully.
If you turn up incognito to a mass, you are likely to be able to commune. But if you are invited in your capacity as the representative of another denomination, as I not infrequently am, you'll be politely prevented from doing so.
In my experience this is an issue for the hierarchy rather than at all grassroots levels.
Of course the pain of separation is felt on both sides, nevertheless just how this is experienced varies. In my diocese, the Year of Mercy/Jubilee was pretty unequivocally announced as a sort of amnesty for lapsed Catholics to return to the fold, and a lot of official ecumenism still has that feel about it, sometimes despite the best intentions of the protagonists.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Forthview
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Posted
It is indeed difficult for the Catholic church NOT to feel that it is indeed the Catholic Church.
It is difficult for the Catholic Church ,when trying to invite those who have for various reasons abandoned the Church, NOT to ask them to return to the Church.
For Catholics the link between Christ and His Mystical Body,the Church, is an extremely close one.
It is part of the differing perspectives and beliefs which we have and we have to accept this, while searching for a way to come closer to other Christians with different backgrounds.
Be assured that if you feel that you are seen as some time not really being 'in the body of the kirk' (as we say in Scotland),it can be the same for Catholics in Presbyterian Scotland.
On a positive note things have changed immeasurably in the last 50 years.
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Frankenstein
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Some of us would like to see things go back to the pre Martin Luther days but without the corruption that had entered the Church of Rome.
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mdijon
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
It is indeed difficult for the Catholic church NOT to feel that it is indeed the Catholic Church.
I think its fine for them to feel that. I feel that I'm right as well. The point is that however one feels one doesn't have to say it. A lot of my life would be quite difficult if I just said what I felt.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Frankenstein
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# 16198
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It would be an interesting exercise for all of us to trace the history of our particular denomination.
When it started and by whom it was founded. Also from whom it broke away.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
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mdijon
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I think a lot of people are aware of that. We see it often discussed on these boards.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Frankenstein
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# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think a lot of people are aware of that. We see it often discussed on these boards.
Then they should be capable of drawing logical conclusions and in the interest of Christian Union,
Try to reverse the fragmentation.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
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