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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: July Book Group: Memory, by Lois Mc Master Bujold
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
And it has the most delicious repercussions on down through the series, too. In the next book, Komarr, someone suggests that they go shopping, and Miles replies that that isn't an invitation that a son of his mother often gets.
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Nicolemr
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# 28
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Posted
And there's a reference to it in Diplomatic Immunity too.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Well too much indulgence in wine on Saturday meant I didn't fancy doing anything much more than lying in bed finishing Memory yesterday morning. So I'm now up to discussing it. I've certainly enjoyed it enough to download the next in the series for my holiday next week.
The book my husband is reading is Falling Free which seems to be a bit apart from some of the other books in the series.
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
Well here's a Q. Let's think about parents. One of the things this series is about is the influence that parents have on people.
Should Cordelia and Aral have tried to influence Miles more firmly? What about Mark? And Cordelia and Aral have their followers; it is clear for instance that Kou and Drou are raising their kids along more modern lines.
It is significant that Miles finally moves into old Piotr's fancy suite.
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarasa:
Well too much indulgence in wine on Saturday meant I didn't fancy doing anything much more than lying in bed finishing Memory yesterday morning. So I'm now up to discussing it. I've certainly enjoyed it enough to download the next in the series for my holiday next week.
The book my husband is reading is Falling Free which seems to be a bit apart from some of the other books in the series.
Yes Falling Free is early (in Bujold's writing career) and a bit apart from the others (notably it is set a couple of hundred years earlier).
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
My first thoughts on Brenda's questions:
quote:
Well here's a Q. Let's think about parents. One of the things this series is about is the influence that parents have on people.
Should Cordelia and Aral have tried to influence Miles more firmly?
Speaking as the mother of a child who is currently experiencing major health issues (albeit not on the scale Miles suffered), I'm amazed he grew up so well-adjusted. It must have been so tempting to spoil him and wrap him in cotton wool. Instead they stand aside and let him try to measure up to the Barrayaran ideal of militarized manhood, despite being physically frail and nearly a foot shorter than he should have been.
Thinking about Miles's childhood makes me feel a bit sorry for Ivan, actually. It becomes clear in the later books of the series that he's not actually stupid - except by comparison with Miles - and doesn't deserve to be referred to as Ivan-you-idiot by everyone. And he must have spent quite a lot of his childhood being overshadowed by Gregor (the Emperor) and Miles (boy genius) without being able to relieve his frustrations by punching them... I bet he *really* enjoyed throwing Miles into that cold bath. It's amazing they stayed friends.
quote:
What about Mark?
I think Cordelia and Aral handle the sudden revelation that they have an unsolicited second son quite well, actually. The problem with Mark is that when they become aware of his existence he is legally an adult. He doesn't *have* to have anything to do with them at all, but it's nice to see him coming to terms in this book with the fact that he doesn't have to be a second Miles; that he is valued for himself and welcomed into the family, warts and all.
quote:
And Cordelia and Aral have their followers; it is clear for instance that Kou and Drou are raising their kids along more modern lines.
Up to a point, Lord Copper... thinking of their reaction to events in 'A Civil Campaign', there are still a few old-Barrayaran prejudices in there.
quote:
It is significant that Miles finally moves into old Piotr's fancy suite.
Yes, I suppose that's when he finally accepts his own place as an adult in Barrayaran society. Until the events in 'Memory' he's never stayed at home long enough to care that everyone thinks he's a non-entity and he's still sleeping in the same room he had as a child.
[ 18. July 2016, 14:33: Message edited by: Jane R ]
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
A lot of the parenting is a reaction -- Aral reacting to Count Piotr's harsh stance, Cordelia bringing her own more Galactic POV into the system. I can't remember which book it was, in which Aral said that his goal in life was to raise a sane and adult Emperor, and then hand over the job to him. But there's a real sense in which the Vorkosigans are teaching the younger ones how to be decent adults. There are some very fine scenes in the other books of Aral and Cordelia teaching Kou this, for instance.
And in reaction to their position, Miles seems to have assimilated a great deal of his grandfather's militaristic outlook. He went into the Academy solely because of the old man, for instance.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Not surprising though, when he had to have a bodyguard practically from birth to stop his grandfather trying to kill him. There's more than a touch of 'See? My mother was right to let me live" about it, and I agree that the old Count is the main reason why Miles half kills himself to get into the Academy.
I suppose this book is the point where he finally gives up trying to outdo Count Piotr and accepts that what he's achieved (even before his second career kicks off) is pretty impressive and stands comparison with his parents' and grandfather's achievements.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Another fun way to analyze these books is the doubling. There are two of Miles, his Miles persona and the quite different Admiral Naismith person. And he is further doubled with his clone twin, Mark. Mark at least seems to have a clear idea of his own identity, and is not interested at all in becoming either of Miles's persona. But this book is about Miles, finally figuring out who he is.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
As a total newbie to this series I thought Miles parents came across as typical parents of an adult child that they are worried about but don't want to show it as they are aware that they are an adult and in charge of their own choices.
What I liekd in the story was the mix of detective story (though I guessed the 'villan' fairly early on), sic-fi and romance. The mix of cultures was interesting too.
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
So this was your first Miles book? Did you have any problem with understanding the back story?
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Mark at least seems to have a clear idea of his own identity, and is not interested at all in becoming either of Miles's persona.
I don't think Mark really knows who he is yet, either. Mirror Dance is, in part, about Mark figuring out who he isn't, but it's really not until A Civil Campaign that Mark coheres around a positive image.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Brenda Clough said:
quote:
So this was your first Miles book? Did you have any problem with understanding the back story?
I'm sure there were nuances in the story I missed through not having read the earlier books, but it didn't impact on my enjoyment. As you said it's a hinge books, Miles is leaving an old life behind for a new one.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
There is a whole separate discussion that could be had about Ivan and his role. If Aral is in line for the imperial throne (Miles is out, because of his disabilities -- one could not imagine Barrayarans tolerating a handicapped ruler) then Ivan is equally in the lineup. Aral is able to avoid trouble by energetically devoting himself to Gregor's service and being his guardian and consigliere. Ivan can't do this. So he found another workaround. Nobody hoping to front a revolution with their own Emperor would select Ivan because he is an idiot.
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There is a whole separate discussion that could be had about Ivan and his role. If Aral is in line for the imperial throne (Miles is out, because of his disabilities -- one could not imagine Barrayarans tolerating a handicapped ruler) then Ivan is equally in the lineup. Aral is able to avoid trouble by energetically devoting himself to Gregor's service and being his guardian and consigliere. Ivan can't do this. So he found another workaround. Nobody hoping to front a revolution with their own Emperor would select Ivan because he is an idiot.
Actually they might if they think he can be manipulated. Ivan's other skill is fading to the background. Admittedly learning more about Ivan gives a different perspective of him leaping to tackle Vordrozda in Warrior's Apprentice. Not only was he saving Gregor but he was also saving himself from getting a job he does not want, emperor.
So Ivan's role in Memory. The one Duv turns to when needing to enter Vorkosigan house looking for Miles (this despite Duv's likely less than happy memories having Ivan as a subordinate in Brothers in Arms). The one Miles turns to when needing a second pair of hands and eyes when investigating what is happening with Simon (and Gregor agrees to this). Ivan is moving, for those who know him, from idiot to dependable (and not flashy except for the ice bath for Miles).
We also have Duv's role in the book, an outsider not only not Vor but not Barrayaran (but one who has studied Barrayar in depth). One who has a plan for his life including who and how he intends to marry which fails badly (admittedly Miles' marital plans go seriously awry also and Ivan will do it completely backwards).
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The idea of Ivan proposing to two sisters in such quick succession is hysterically funny.
One of the other themes in the books is the gradual opening of Barrayar. This is exemplified in the various marriages that people contract. Cordelia was a shocking bride for Aral to haul home; by the end of the series everybody has married 'out' mainly because of the dearth of chicks on the planet.
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The idea of Ivan proposing to two sisters in such quick succession is hysterically funny.
One of the other themes in the books is the gradual opening of Barrayar. This is exemplified in the various marriages that people contract. Cordelia was a shocking bride for Aral to haul home; by the end of the series everybody has married 'out' mainly because of the dearth of chicks on the planet.
Well not completely shocking; Aral's maternal grandmother was also Betan. Cordelia is in a class of one as far as shocking people.
Ivan asking two sisters in a row and then in a later book thinking he stopped too soon and should have asked the third sister after the first two turned him down. Perhaps we should consider why Ivan panics and thinks he needs to settle down (though the panic only seems to last two books before he mostly reverts to short-term girlfriends). Note the sisters are safe. They don't come with an extended politically powerful family (in contrast to all the Vor young women that Alys presents to him [and also to Gregor]). He knows them well (just as he knows [or thinks he does] the one Vor woman he later considers marrying). And they aren't pursuing him (admittedly Ivan was a bit of a lout in his youth).
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I am sure maternal pressure drove a good deal of Ivan's panic. Also razzing from Miles.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Another character who goes through an interesting transition in this book is Illyan (obviously). After nearly forty years as the man with the perfect memory, he suddenly loses his chip and has to adjust to being an ordinary fallible human being. In the process, we learn that he's been in love with Alys Vorpatril for most of his life, he likes music and he thinks fishing without dynamite is dull.
But did he lose his identity when the chip failed, or when it was implanted? Or was it the job that swallowed him up, and he was only able to become himself when he was discharged on medical grounds (like Miles)?
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Actually that is a fascinating thought -- that they both had to get out on disability before they could become able to love. (It is significant that Miles can't find a wife until the next book or so.) One of the ongoing issues of the entire series is how a planet/culture devours people. Barrayar devours you in quite a different way than Cetaganda.
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Actually that is a fascinating thought -- that they both had to get out on disability before they could become able to love. (It is significant that Miles can't find a wife until the next book or so.) One of the ongoing issues of the entire series is how a planet/culture devours people. Barrayar devours you in quite a different way than Cetaganda.
Except Miles was able to find love; just not a person willing to settle down with him on Barrayar. Admittedly it was probably because he always courted them in his Admiral Naismith role and not the role he wanted them to settle down with. Simon wasn't getting anything (admittedly if he had and the relationship broke up he would never ever have been able to forget or have it fade). The presumably very polite formal relationship with Alys was safe. One wonders if Alys was also avoiding relationships because the step-father of a potential heir (at least while Ivan was a minor) could lead to problems (see Kareen's comments to Cordelia in Barrayar). I wonder how Alys became Gregor's official hostess. Did Aral recommend her or did Simon because it would allow him to interact with her on a daily basis (as well as her being very competent for the job).
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Miles had no problem with loving. I see no reason to think his love for both Taura and Ellie Quinn was anything other than sincere. What Miles had was a problem being loved, in anything other than his Admiral Naismith persona.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I think Alys is also Gregor's aunt (I'd have to look at the family tree to be sure). Since Cordelia is a) his foster mother and b) from off planet and not clued in about Barrayaran etiquette, she would not be a good choice for hostess. Also c) she was going to go with Aral and be Vicereine of Sergyar. Alys may simply have been the nearest female relative of the right age/rank. (Drou is not Vor, for instance.) Poor Gregor doesn't have all that much family left on the ground any more.
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
No, I'm pretty sure the relationship is not that close. And Gregor does have cousins on his mother's side, mention is made of them in planning the wedding in A Civil Campaign. I think it's more a matter of, she was in the right circle, had the right rank and ability, and basically was in the right place at the right time with the right talents.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Nicolemr: quote:
What Miles had was a problem being loved, in anything other than his Admiral Naismith persona.
They loved *him*; they didn't love his planet. Perhaps part of the problem was that Miles had put so much of himself into 'Admiral Naismith' that 'Lord Vorkosigan' was a non-entity. Ivan says he's never seen Miles 'come the little Admiral' as himself/Lord Vorkosigan before.
I suppose the other part of the problem was that Miles loved his home planet too much to give up his real identity, and loved Ellie too much to force her into giving up her own identity as Admiral Quinn.
That's presumably why all these women find him so irresistible; he encourages them to do amazing things, and rejoices in their achievements. He doesn't expect them to pretend to be less than they are in order to prop up his ego.
(eta: Nicole, I think Alys is referred to more than once as Gregor's 'senior female relative'?)
[ 25. July 2016, 09:41: Message edited by: Jane R ]
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Here is a family tree. If you click around you can blow it up bigger.
From this I calculate that Alys's husband Padma and Gregor share a great-great-grandfather. Alys's maiden name is unknown, but she is clearly Vor. Everyone calls her Aunt Alys (even Gregor, am I right?).
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
What it doesn't tell you is who her parents were. She could be descended from another branch of the Vorbarra family tree and so be related to Gregor in her own right as well as via her marriage to Padma Vorpatril. In fact this seems more likely than not, given that the Vor class tend to marry amongst themselves and that Barrayar has been isolated from the rest of the galaxy for 600 years.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I have to go back and read BARRAYAR to see if Alys's family is mentioned. She does some pretty impressive things in that book.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Here's a Q about the actual book, and not the Vorkosiverse in general. What do you think of the crime and the solution? Do you find Haroche's corruption convincing?
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Yes, I think so. Certainly the cover-up and attempts at framing ring true. The original crime, a little less so, but given the intensity of the motive, I think so.
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
Ivan and Gregor are second cousins once removed. Dorca the Just is the great great grandfather of Ivan (Xav, Sonia, Padma, Ivan) and great grandfather of Gregor (unknown daughter married to Ezar, Serg, Gregor). Ivan and Miles are second cousins.
It is I think a minor failing that we don't know Alys' natal family given the emphasis the Vor have on family; Ivan does mention some maternal cousins in a later book but no names. Drou btw is known to substitute for Alys at times as official hostess. It seems during the regency Cordelia would have been the official hostess though Alys would have been the effective hostess (and in charge in her eyes of finding Gregor a suitable bride given Cordelia wasn't doing that job). After Gregor reached adulthood he could choose his own official hostess and then there was the short period in Warrior's Apprentice when Aral was out-of-favor and Simon was imprisoned (briefly referred to in this book). I can't imagine Alys was official hostess during that time given her close ties to Aral. So did Gregor try out a few (I can imagine Vordrozda might have suggested a female Vordrozda) before settling back to Alys?
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
This is discussed briefly in Memory but there is an entire separate power structure, run by the women. I am sure there is a large stable of females who can do stuff for Gregor, something like the Altar Guild supporting the rector at the church.
Alys is clearly the most powerful, especially in this volume. Being unofficially in charge of finding the next Empress is a huge deal, even though Gregor clearly gets rights of approval. Alys is -editing- his possible choices, selecting the ones that circulate past him for inspection. She is considering not only social acceptability, education/status, but whether Gregor will bite. Which is why this book is so funny and great; all expectations are both fulfilled and confounded.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
It is I think a minor failing that we don't know Alys' natal family given the emphasis the Vor have on family;
Not really. When Lady Alys took oath as Lord Padma's wife, she became Vorpatril. Her name and honour are Vorpatril. Sure, she'll have a relationship with her relatives, assuming they exist, but it's not the same.
IIRC, there are sisters mentioned, but not by name. So they're not important to the story. Alys is probably the beautiful and talented daughter of Middlerank Vorboring. Probably, Vorboring was an officer in the Imperial Service, which led to his daughter meeting Captain Vorpatril.
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
It is I think a minor failing that we don't know Alys' natal family given the emphasis the Vor have on family;
Not really. When Lady Alys took oath as Lord Padma's wife, she became Vorpatril. Her name and honour are Vorpatril. Sure, she'll have a relationship with her relatives, assuming they exist, but it's not the same.
IIRC, there are sisters mentioned, but not by name. So they're not important to the story. Alys is probably the beautiful and talented daughter of Middlerank Vorboring. Probably, Vorboring was an officer in the Imperial Service, which led to his daughter meeting Captain Vorpatril.
And the same for Kareen and her missing family? Though I can see Serg choosing a bride who had no closely related adult males who might defend her. Note that Vor women keep their natal family name and append their husband's name (see Miles listing Ekaterin's names) and in case of divorce are expected to return to their natal family.
I note that Alys seems independently wealthy and that is unlikely to be from just her dower so I doubt she is middling Vor. One presumes Ivan is the inheritor of the bulk of his father's fortune much of which may have come originally from Xav (Padma was descended from a younger son in the Vorpatril clan and is Lord Vorpatril by virtue of being the son of a daughter of Prince Xav).
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Here's a Q about the actual book, and not the Vorkosiverse in general. What do you think of the crime and the solution? Do you find Haroche's corruption convincing?
I think part of the motivation for the crime is how inherently irritating Miles can be. It's not necessarily just the fact that Haroche can't get promotion all the time Illyan's there, it's the fact that he's about to get passed over for Miles who is younger, posher, and a loose cannon. Enough to make anyone who'd worked their way up by hard graft furious. As to the actual crime, I think the means being available crystallised the fury into action.
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Jane R
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# 331
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Posted
Yes, what Helen-Eva said. Also, judging by the astonishment when Miles appeared at the door wearing all his medals, his undercover career really WAS a closely-guarded secret. Haroche admits he'd never realised just how much Miles had done until after reading his file... which suggests that he underestimated Miles, although he does a good job of revising his plans when he realises his mistake.
Maybe Haroche has a few Old-Barrayaran prejudices lurking in the recesses of his mind, too... bad enough to be passed over in favour of a younger, posher candidate with (apparently) less experience and a *very* irritating personality (even the people who like him sometimes refer to him as a 'hyperactive dwarf'). Even worse when it's Vorkosigan the Mutie Lord*; a couple of generations ago he'd have been strangled at birth, they should have a Real Man in the job, etc. etc.
*Yes, I know he's not really a mutant but the distinction is lost on most Barrayarans...
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Maybe Haroche has a few Old-Barrayaran prejudices lurking in the recesses of his mind, too... bad enough to be passed over in favour of a younger, posher candidate with (apparently) less experience and a *very* irritating personality
It may be just my reading (based on my own psychology doubtless!) but I think it's the fact that Miles is an aristocrat and son of an ex-PM that's the kicker. The secret service seems to be one of the few areas where people who aren't from the ruling class can succeed - Illyan and his predecessor weren't aristos - so to lose one of the few bastions of meritocracy to a posh boy would be just about the end.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I do like the idea that Miles himself bears some tiny responsibility for Haroche's fall. He can be charming, but he can't charm everybody.
It is never quite as good if the problems that drive the story fall from above, a thunderbolt from Zeus. It's always better -style- if the hero causes his own problems, not by stupidity or neglect (because then this would impede his heroism; only villains do that) but because of his own nature.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I've always wondered why Illyan, who is usually an intelligent man, was fool enough to more or less tell Haroche that he was going to be training his new boss (Miles), particularly when Haroche had good reason to think he had a shot at the command chair himself. There are very few saints who would cope well with that kind of situation, no matter how well-intentioned.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Could it be that Haroche's expectations were all in his own mind?
Which gets us to another fine feature of these books -- as managerial fables. Yes, it is important to have good personnel. But you have to nurture them along, promote them properly, or they'll jump ship and go work for your rival/drop a bug into Illyan's chip.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Could it be that Haroche's expectations were all in his own mind?
Which gets us to another fine feature of these books -- as managerial fables. Yes, it is important to have good personnel. But you have to nurture them along, promote them properly, or they'll jump ship and go work for your rival/drop a bug into Illyan's chip.
Haroche was a definite candidate given where he was, but, from Illyan's point of view, might have been too old and not enough non-Barrayar experience. ImpSec chiefs seem to start young. Negri had been there for decades (though might have been Ezar's chief security person before stepping in as ImpSec head after Ezar became emperor) so presumably started late 20s or early 30s and Illyan was late 20s.
On a different thought, ImpSec has several bureaus. Galactic handles stuff outside of the Empire then Komarr and Sergyar and on Barrayar, Domestic and Emperor. Emperor isn't named but seems to be stuff handled directly by the ImpSec Chief. It includes the Emperor's personal security who get trained directly by Illyan (Vor Game has Miles think about Illyan giving them their final polish) and those informants like By who work in the highest Vor circles and the analysts and handlers who work with them. Haroche did not know about Alys' close working relationship with ImpSec (so close that she is By's usual contact) nor did he know how close Miles is to Gregor, but, he was otherwise in charge of Domestic security.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
In Haroche's confession to Gregor, he says (Illyan present) that after Miles' supposed death Illyan clarified the lines of succession, made him 2nd in command, said "he was thinking of choosing a new successor" in case he got assassinated, "and I was it. Then Vorkosigan turned up alive again." It was after this Illyan asked Haroche to "train (his) future boss." Emotionally that was pretty blind of Illyan.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
In Haroche's confession to Gregor, he says (Illyan present) that after Miles' supposed death Illyan clarified the lines of succession, made him 2nd in command, said "he was thinking of choosing a new successor" in case he got assassinated, "and I was it. Then Vorkosigan turned up alive again." It was after this Illyan asked Haroche to "train (his) future boss." Emotionally that was pretty blind of Illyan.
The temptation of Haroche and the temptation of Miles.
Haroche finds out he was next, gets displaced when Miles shows up again but seems to accept that (he could have sabotaged Illyan and taken over as interim since Miles wasn't ready and later taken out Miles) then Miles drops out of the succession again and Haroche acts to ensure he doesn't get displaced again.
Miles lies his way into keeping his Admiral Naismith identity and endangering his people by concealing the seizures. He is again tempted to betray his people (Duv) by taking Haroche's offer of restoration he is still tempted even after realizing that Haroche is almost certainly the person responsible for Illyan's condition.
Haroche resists then falls. Miles falls but later resists.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
And of course the real irony of the situation is that Miles doesn't actually *want* Illyan's job. When he finds out that he would have been promoted to a desk in another year's time if he'd stayed in ImpSec he realises that his big cover-up wasn't worth the risk.
It's interesting to speculate about what would have happened if Miles hadn't been found out (or if he'd been honest about the seizures, or if they'd never happened in the first place) Would he have resigned from ImpSec rather than take up Illyan's job, or would his sense of duty have forced him to accept? Would he have been swallowed up by the job, as Illyan was?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Miles may be brilliant but I simply can't see him as a good leader of ImpSec. He would become bored.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Which makes me think Illyan was either an idiot or very very shrewd, knowing that the only thing stronger than Miles' propensity to make trouble was his sense of duty. (which is how Illyan got stuck with the job in the first place--he was standing handy to Aral at just the wrong moment, and couldn't get out of it. Perhaps he was planning to pull an Aral on Miles.)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The other thing that is clear, both from family history and from observation, is that Miles is eventually going to settle down. It is worth putting up with the aggravations of his wilder youth, knowing that the Imperium will get a really worthwhile servitor in future.
I was impressed with Gregor's long view. He knows he needs younger men, men of his own generation, to succeed Aral, Ilyan & co.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
To get back to Haroche and his plans. What strikes me having now read Memory and Komarr is how nice McMaster is to her 'villans'. They are all people doing bad things for what they see as good reasons. I certainly found it very refreshing, and as Brenda Clough warned, I think I'm addicted, the next is series is lined up for reading during my travels this coming weekend.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarasa:
To get back to Haroche and his plans. What strikes me having now read Memory and Komarr is how nice McMaster is to her 'villans'. They are all people doing bad things for what they see as good reasons. I certainly found it very refreshing.
That's probably because it's good writing - in real life people do the most appalling things for what seem to them to be good reasons. I think it's only in books that people are evil for the sake of being evil. I've just read a biography of Hitler and for pete's sake even HE seems to have thought he was doing the right thing however truly completely and utterly bonkersly wrong he may have been.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Yes, the real true Joker-style supervillain is almost purely a creature of fiction. Nearly every horrible person you will ever meet does not believe they are horrible. Osama bin Laden could make a rational and sensible case for his actions; Vladimir Putin is not mad but crazy like a fox. When they look into the mirror in the morning they see a misunderstood hero, or a crusader for God, or simply someone who is struggling the best they can against the lies and stupidity of the rest of the human race. (This last was the original title of Hitler's autobiography, but his editors wisely forced him to cut and title it Mein Kampf, my struggle, instead.)
A believable and reasonable villain is the hallmark of good fiction. Cannon fodder in storm trooper uniforms are always a bad sign.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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