Ship of Fools: How do you stop people from making dumb platitudes?

Thread: How do you stop people from making dumb platitudes? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :

My elderly father, who will turn 90 next month, is in very bad condition, with a host of medical problems. (His slow slide into dementia and dependency was the reason why I started the "Aging Parents" thread on this board several years ago).

Here's my problem: Many people who have not been through a situation such as mine (and this includes my wife) keep offering well-meaning, but utterly annoying platitudes after I answer their inquiries about his current state. For years I have been repeatedly offered such helpful advice as:

- "Just put it out of your mind." (If that worked, psychiatrists would all be unemployed).

- "Be grateful for your own health." (God blessed me, but not my dad?)

- "No sense getting upset over something you can't do anything about." (I am supposed to turn off emotions the way I can turn off a lamp).

- "I'm sure he's getting the best of care." (No, he is not).

Such simplistic advice about difficult situations is about as helpful as pouring alcohol over a burn. It just makes things worse. With first offenders I typically just thank them and change the subject, but when it's a family member or close friend who keeps reiterating such drivel, I have tried explaining that such talk is not helpful, and that it would be far better to just listen.

Example: Years ago my mother was diagnosed with an inoperable tumor. I called an old friend. "Liz," I said, "my mother has lung cancer." Her reply? "Oh, SHIT!" She acknowledged my feelings perfectly. We chatted for a while and I thanked her. "Liz, you know when to simply listen."

Has anyone else on the Ship had to deal with this situation, be it involving a frail relative or any other problem? How have you dealt with it? Thanks.

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
My elderly father, who will turn 90 next month, is in very bad condition, with a host of medical problems. (His slow slide into dementia and dependency was the reason why I started the "Aging Parents" thread on this board several years ago).

Here's my problem: Many people who have not been through a situation such as mine (and this includes my wife) keep offering well-meaning, but utterly annoying platitudes after I answer their inquiries about his current state. For years I have been repeatedly offered such helpful advice as:

- "Just put it out of your mind." (If that worked, psychiatrists would all be unemployed).

- "Be grateful for your own health." (God blessed me, but not my dad?)

- "No sense getting upset over something you can't do anything about." (I am supposed to turn off emotions the way I can turn off a lamp).

- "I'm sure he's getting the best of care." (No, he is not).

Such simplistic advice about difficult situations is about as helpful as pouring alcohol over a burn. It just makes things worse. With first offenders I typically just thank them and change the subject, but when it's a family member or close friend who keeps reiterating such drivel, I have tried explaining that such talk is not helpful, and that it would be far better to just listen. But few people seem to understand. They keep on with the platitudes, or sometimes get mad at me for not heeding their wisdom.

Example: Years ago my mother was diagnosed with an inoperable tumor. I called an old friend. "Liz," I said, "my mother has lung cancer." Her reply? "Oh, SHIT!" She acknowledged my feelings perfectly. We chatted for a while and I thanked her. "Liz, you know when to simply listen."

Has anyone else on the Ship had to deal with this situation, be it involving a frail relative or any other problem? How have you dealt with it? Thanks.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

{{{{{{Squirrel}}}}}}} [Votive]

I think that people are often scared by death, disease, and bad luck; are (subconsciously) afraid it will come visit them; and use stupid comments to push it away. FWIW.

Any chance of a support group? Or a therapist, so you'll have someone to *listen*?

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

You can't stop them (without a gun, anyway, or a LOT of duct tape), but you can say to them just what you've said to us. In which case they will probably huff off. But that might be all to the good, right?

I have one of those who always manages to insert foot in mouth up to hip. When I was obliged to inform her about my miscarriage (long story) I made very very sure to a) cue in the other relatives who were on the spot ahead of time, b) say "I don't want any reaction to this, but I need to tell you something", and c) walk out of the room and lock myself in the bathroom IMMEDIATELY upon giving the news.

She hasn't said a word to me about it. Which is precisely how I want it, knowing the likely alternatives.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

It's sometimes very difficult not to offer useless platitudes in situations like that; nature (and, apparently, conversation) abhors a vacuum, and often people feel that they have to say something, perhaps because they know that they can't do anything,

For myself, I know I'm guilty of saying something like "he/she had a good long innings" when I hear of the death of someone very old, even though it's probably not very helpful to the bereaved.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

Listening and not speaking seems impossible for a lot of people, but there is little in the way of a cure available. I agree with the idea of a support group, they can be incredibly helpful - if there is not a specific one locally see if there is a meeting of Emotions Anonymous in your area but I would think it likely there will be a Carers' Group of some description.

Alternatively have loads of cards printed that you can give out that say:

quote:
There is nothing useful you can say so just shut the fuck up and listen to me!

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Many people seem to be under the illusion that when they know about your situation, that they partly own it and therefore my talk about in any way of their choosing when they see you, not realizing their ill-manners in bringing it up and then worsening it by giving platitudes and opinion.

I think very often they are not really responding to my feelings with their words, but trying to reassure themselves about their view of life and the world, and what they might want to reassure themselves about, not me, were they to face a similar situation. Such things have made me want to avoid people in general.

FWIW, I think Squirrel that the responses in your OP which you put in (parentheses) are quite reasonable and very good, or some parallel words - it is bloody honest, which I have been told is the best policy. You can always say sorry and pretend to be after, adding that the whole thing is very troubling or some such.

quote:
Squirrel:
- "Just put it out of your mind." (If that worked, psychiatrists would all be unemployed).

- "Be grateful for your own health." (God blessed me, but not my dad?)

- "No sense getting upset over something you can't do anything about." (I am supposed to turn off emotions the way I can turn off a lamp).

- "I'm sure he's getting the best of care." (No, he is not).

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

"Just put it out of your mind" is a good one. "Let it go" and "Don't worry about it" are other variations on the theme, and I was told recently, "Everybody's got stuff going on in their lives."

If you hear remarks like that, end that line of conversation there and then, change the subject and make a mental note not to waste time attempting to discuss it with that person again. They can't relate to what you're telling them and attempts to explain further are going to be futile and annoying on both sides. In some cases they haven't got the sensitivity to listen, either: and they don't all want to. "Put it out of your mind" can also sometimes be a way of saying "I'm not interested in your problem and I want to talk about something else."

There are, unfortunately, people around who lack the emotional depth to respond helpfully, not just the experience to do so; the saying that you find out who your friends are when you're in difficulties is quite true.

[ 01. November 2015, 04:55: Message edited by: Ariel ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

When the twins died I got a lot of vomitous platitudes from otherwise loving people. "God must have wanted two little angels" was probably the most common (and worst).

But one friend, when I called and told her, simply said, "No!" with a choked sob. That was the right response.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Squirrel--

You might want to make a bunch of copies of "10 Things Not To Say To Caregivers" (Alzheimers.About.com). Maybe even post it on a wall somewhere. Especially the bit about what TO say.

FWIW, YMMV.

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

But you see, I would find, 'he/she had a good long innings' (where true) very helpful and appropriate, and 'put it out of your mind' helpful advice.

So perhaps those people are genuinely trying to help. Perhaps it's knowing the person.

M.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

It's awkward to know what to say.

The STFU approach can lead to awkward silences which may be misinterpreted as hostile or indifferent or embarassed.

The "I believe in an omnipotent omniscient God and so you don't understand his motives" doesn't play well with those of use who don't believe in such a deity. Similarly platitudes about God's Will or I'll offer my prayers can really irritate as yuor examples.

I usually say; I'm sorry for your loss or your relatives hardship. It always feels inadequate.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I can only say that "put it out of your mind" and similar remarks, when you've been waking up in the small hours with something on your mind, is for me profoundly unhelpful and comes across as dismissive. Especially when they then want to either take it on themselves to correct your negative thinking, or else then launch into telling you, as it might be, how they're getting on with their latest DIY project.

Quite frankly, a trouble shared is a trouble doubled sometimes. And at the end of the day, nobody else can take your grief from you: you have to work through that yourself.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Can't you retrain them to saying something like, "I'm sorry. Is there anything I can do to help?"

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

That list said that was wrong too, plus said to say "I'll pray for you". Perhaps the issue is contradictory advice ?

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

I think the issue is not so much offering help as asking offering specific help - a general and vague offering of help is not very helpful but an offer to sit with next Tuesday afternoon so that the carer can go to the hairdresser or whatever...

Or, I'm going to Tesco on Thursday morning, I'll call round on my way and if you have a list & money ready I'll get what you need...

There are loads of things people CAN do to ease the burden but often off the cuff it is difficult to think of things.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

I think it cuts both ways, it is difficult to think what to offer. if you are not close enough to already know.

That strikes me as the main issue, if people don't know you well enough to make sensible suggestions you are willing to accept (I am not sure, for example, I would want a random work college to go sit with my elderly relative), how is it you hope people will respond ?

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :

Thanks for the support and ideas, folks. I think I will order some cards asking people to just listen, but will leave the word "fuck" out since that would not go over well with my older relatives.

I do have a support group, which does help. And I have a pastoral counselor who's phenomenal, as well as a psychiatrist who helps with meds.

Looking back, I think I left out of my OP the most annoying comment I sometimes hear:

quote:
"Although we don't understand it, this is part of God's plan"

GRRRRRRRR..... I feel the steam coming out of my ears like you would see in old children's cartoon shows.

Some of you wrote about how the other person probably cannot handle a situation like that which I am facing. Perhaps their platitudes are their way of trying to re-assure themselves that things won't be so bad when it's there turn. Sorry, pal. It will be.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
That strikes me as the main issue, if people don't know you well enough to make sensible suggestions you are willing to accept (I am not sure, for example, I would want a random work college to go sit with my elderly relative), how is it you hope people will respond ?

Just reassurance that they're taking it seriously. Few things hurt more than having your concerns dismissed with an airy "don't worry about it" or "everybody's got problems, there's always someone worse off than yourself". Friends aren't counsellors and shouldn't be expected to act as such, but the occasional "Jeez, I'm really sorry to hear that" said sincerely can go a long way just by itself.

I don't expect offers of help, it's not their problem. To me, an acceptable response would be a genuine acknowledgement that they understand someone is going through a difficult period. They can then decide to avoid you from that point on if they want, that's fine, at least they've been sincere meanwhile. If they stick around to give you moral support and encouragement after that, you have a true friend.

Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :

I am so glad I'm not the only person who gets wound up by this. When I have the anvil on my shoulders, telling me "Something is bound to come along" does not make me feel better, it makes me want to stick my hand down your throat and string you up from the nearest lamppost by your colon.

And my situation is not a patch on Squirrel's in terms of seriousness. The worst of it is that sometimes I find myself uttering them, and wondering if I hurt people with them as much as they hurt me...

AG

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I also suggest that if you (gen.) are going to drop off a casserole, etc., for someone, don't expect to be invited in. I went through that as a kid, after various deaths. The recipient may not be in any shape to be seen, let alone have a visitor. OTOH, some people would leave the casserole, ring the doorbell, and drive away. (Don't remember anyone calling first, and this was before answering machines.) While the 2nd approach was annoying and still meant getting out of bed, at least didn't involve interaction.

IOW, try to consider the person's needs, ask what they need, and give them room to say "no" and respect that if they do.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
It's awkward to know what to say.

...

I usually say; I'm sorry for your loss or your relatives hardship. It always feels inadequate.

DING DING DING DING DING! You win the prize. It feels inadequate because it IS inadequate, as is every other thing we could possibly say or do. But it's honest inadequate, and it doesn't add any more pain at all--which is a lovely, wonderful, comforting thing.

I think a lot of the problem lies with people automatically thinking they're being asked for a solution of some sort--advice to make the situation better--when there probably isn't any such thing in existence, and even if there was, it would be a professional's job to dispense the advice. I catch myself doing this sometimes, and then I get mad at myself for being an inadvertent asshole.

Sometimes they just want you to listen.

PS I've taught my son that the proper response to appalling news is "Oh shit" (or a politer version of the same for tender ears). No one can fix my sister's cancer, but the emotional reaction at least tells me that someone cares.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

"I'm sorry [for your loss]" is the perfect thing to say, if you don't go any further. It says you care enough to feel their pain, and it says you care enough to not try to force platitudes or unsolicited advice on them. The "for your loss" part is if someone has had a family member or friend (or pet) die. If they get half their foot chopped off in a lawnmower, as Babs did, it might not be welcome from someone who isn't close enough to joke like that.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Frankly, I cut people some slack. At least they are talking to you. Some people act like bad situations are catching and retreat across the horizon. Or they are afraid that most things they might say will end up being resented (which might be true according to this thread) so they don't take the chance.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Of course, there is another set of people who feel "I'm sorry for your loss" sounds insincere.

I'm with Lydia*Rose on this, I assume people mean well and try to focus on the intention rather than the words.

[ 01. November 2015, 23:33: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

Interestingly I just read this article about this same subject here:

Not everything happens for a reason.

Personally I incline towards saying something along the lines of "That sucks big time."

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

I'm with Lydia*Rose on this, I assume people mean well and try to focus on the intention rather than the words.

It's great if you can do that. Unfortunately, a lot of us turn into total bitches-on-wheels when we've been ka-thumped by some tragedy.

[whistles and looks at the ceiling]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Of course, there is another set of people who feel "I'm sorry for your loss" sounds insincere.

I'm with Lydia*Rose on this, I assume people mean well and try to focus on the intention rather than the words.

If you can do that when your spouse just died, God bless you. Not everybody can be that sanguine.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition, so I avoid it. If I'm saddened by the news, I'll find a way to say so, but mostly I'll say that I can't find useful words, and then immediately ask the person giving me the news how he/she is doing, which is generally much more relevant. When I had to tell a much older friend that I was dealing with a dose of cancer, his reaction was the same as Squirrel's friend: "Oh shit!", which was exactly how I felt, and we went straight from there to talking about how he could help. My wife's response to bad news is almost always, "I'll be round there with a pie" (or dinner etc etc). She does platters, not platitudes.

I've committed some real blunders over the years, though, and I doubt anyone gets it right first time.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Of course, there is another set of people who feel "I'm sorry for your loss" sounds insincere.

I'm with Lydia*Rose on this, I assume people mean well and try to focus on the intention rather than the words.
If you can do that when your spouse just died, God bless you. Not everybody can be that sanguine.

Note the word 'try'.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Of course, there is another set of people who feel "I'm sorry for your loss" sounds insincere.

I'm with Lydia*Rose on this, I assume people mean well and try to focus on the intention rather than the words.
If you can do that when your spouse just died, God bless you. Not everybody can be that sanguine.
Note the word 'try'.

When my husband died from a freak accident, I was too flattened to try.

Moo

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

A platitude is really just a kind of cliché. Good writers and speakers avoid cliché. Good carers - I mean people who care in the broadest sense - will avoid platitude.

It's not easy. To avoid platitude, you have to shy away from saying or doing anything that you merely have in your "storehouse of responses", and that's especially difficult when you're surprised by something. Sometimes a platitude isn't a failure to care, it's a failure of imagination or creativity. I usually find that a lot easier to indulge.

I've found - in a similar situation to yours, Squirrel, or always after a bereavement - that the platitudes weary me less than just being expected to tell the story over and over again to everyone you meet. How many times can you tell the story "X died" without screaming inside "If I have to say these words one more time...!!"? What I learned to do years ago was to tell the story to a few close people I could trust, and give them permission to tell everyone else. That way, if nothing else, it wasn't me hearing the platitudinous responses.

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition...

That someone was an idiot.

It's perfectly reasonable - I would go so far as to say a sign of a decent human being - to feel and express sorrow upon hearing of someone's misfortune or some other bad news. This doesn't imply any degree of responsibility for whatever has happened. I can't imagine why anybody would think that it would.

I should like to think that most people have enough sense to know that when they tell a friend that they have lost a loved one, and the friend gives them a hug and says, 'I'm so sorry', that this isn't to be construed as an -admission of murder.

Too often people are willing to take umbrage at others' good intentions, determined to find ill will where none exists. People who find themselves on the receiving end of someone's story of tribulation may be able to relate and may want to let the suffering person know that they aren't alone. Yet how many times has 'I think I understand' received a hostile response of, 'You can't possibly understand'? It's only the person's condition of grief or other heightened emotion that makes excusable what in any other situation would be plain rudeness.

In actuality, I suspect that most of us are capable of understanding pain, loss, worry, fear, marginalisation, loneliness, isolation, &c, even if the particular circumstances of our experience are not exactly the same as the other person's. If I need a shoulder to cry on, or if I'm frustrated about something, and I turn to someone to cry/vent, I appreciate it when the person expresses some understanding of what I'm saying.

Sometimes, yes, people do say stupid things in response, and that's likely because of this:

quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
It's sometimes very difficult not to offer useless platitudes in situations like that; nature (and, apparently, conversation) abhors a vacuum, and often people feel that they have to say something, perhaps because they know that they can't do anything,

They may not know what to say, they may have limited experience of dealing with people who are in difficulties or who are hurting, yet at the same time they may not want to appear unfeeling.

I can think of two separate occasions off the top of my head on which I was in difficult situation and the person I spoke with about it (not the same person each time) said something that actually infuriated me. In both cases, it went beyond platitude and entered the realm of unsolicited advice, forcefully and insistently given, which dismissed what I was actually feeling.

Yet, there is so much actual animosity and hatred in the world that I saw little point in responding with anger to people's attempts - however misguided - to help. I just made it clear that what was being offered wasn't helping, showed gratitude, and changed the subject.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s better to keep this sort of thing private. I don't always want to talk about it, and I don't want fake sympathy or to make others feel embarrassed and uncomfortable (or annoyed at having to hear the latest developments). There's nothing they can do about it and they can't turn the clock back. Besides, sometimes it’s nice just to have a normal conversation that isn’t overshadowed by something, just a bit of light relief.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

The problem is sometimes you HAVE to tell them.

You can't really hide news of a death in your immediate family. People are bound to notice the effect on you. Similarly divorce, cancer diagnosis, and so on.

Or maybe it's just me with the glass face?

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The problem is sometimes you HAVE to tell them.

No, actually, you don't. You will need to tell your employer, but most and anyone official, but most other people don't actually need to know.

quote:
You can't really hide news of a death in your immediate family. People are bound to notice the effect on you. Similarly divorce, cancer diagnosis, and so on.

They may notice that you don't look cheery but it's a safe bet that 99% of them will leave it at that and not ask any questions. This is especially true if you might be prone to depression, they'll just assume it's situation normal and leave you alone until you come out of it.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

That hasn't been my experience at all. I have tried to do this in the past, and generally don't get left alone until I refuse to discuss whatever-it-is with them (usually on the grounds that I'm not ready to talk about it).

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

My experience so far has been that people saying anything is better than people saying nothing, because the saying nothing hangs over your relationship with that person.

But I can see that different people feel differently.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition...
That someone was an idiot.

I would humbly disagree with you. The person who put me on the spot with that was not an idiot. I learned from the experience that there are better ways to express sadness and grief, either shared or personal.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition...

That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition...
That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.

In South Africa, if you trip up and hurt yourself people say "I'm sorry" or often just "sorry". In other words "I feel sorry for you"

When I have been bereaved I would rather folk said anything rather than worrying about what to say. Their words are far less important than their concern and loving kindness imo.

The more caught up folk get with 'what' to say, the less likely they are to say anything at all - which is a shame.

[ 04. November 2015, 10:41: Message edited by: Boogie ]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.

Quite. It's a normal way of expressing oneself that I grew up hearing and never thought to question it.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.
Quite. It's a normal way of expressing oneself that I grew up hearing and never thought to question it.

All perfectly true, but it doesn't change how that particular bereaved person felt. I avoid using the word in those circumstances so it doesn't happen again.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

So qualifying it by saying "I'm sorry to hear that" and/or "I'm sorry this has happened to you" would also be out?

It seems a bit strange that people wouldn't want you to commiserate; if anyone told me they didn't want to hear "I'm sorry" I'd refrain from expressing any sentiments to them after that.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition.

As others have said, "I'm sorry" has at least two meanings: "I apologise" and "I am feeling your sorrow". At times, of course, they will overlap.

What does puzzle me though is the demand that modern-day politicians apologise for mistakes or atrocities made by their predecessors, decades or centuries ago. If they merely assure people of their regret or express their sorrow and commiseration, they are castigated. But I don't see how they can offer any proper apology for something they didn't do.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.
Quite. It's a normal way of expressing oneself that I grew up hearing and never thought to question it.
All perfectly true, but it doesn't change how that particular bereaved person felt. I avoid using the word in those circumstances so it doesn't happen again.

This policy will eventually leave one silent in the face of bereavement because anything one says could possibly set someone off. You had one person react badly, because of their own linguistic ignorance, to a very standard, near-universally-accepted, and heartfelt condolence statement. I'm not sure that's a good reason to give up saying "I'm so sorry for your loss."

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
What does puzzle me though is the demand that modern-day politicians apologise for mistakes or atrocities made by their predecessors, decades or centuries ago. If they merely assure people of their regret or express their sorrow and commiseration, they are castigated. But I don't see how they can offer any proper apology for something they didn't do.

I think what people want is an acknowledgment that whatever happened should not have happened, and the speaker regrets it.

Moo

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

I agree with BT - our ancestors lived according to the laws and mores of their times. There's no point whatsoever in modern-day politicians offering empty apologies for misdeeds perpetrated hundreds of years before they were born.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That person doesn't understand that words can mean more than one thing. "I'm sorry" can simply mean "I have sorrow." That may even be the older use of the phrase. It doesn't have to mean "I repent" or "I apologize." This is a simple case of semantic ignorance.
Quite. It's a normal way of expressing oneself that I grew up hearing and never thought to question it.
All perfectly true, but it doesn't change how that particular bereaved person felt. I avoid using the word in those circumstances so it doesn't happen again.
This policy will eventually leave one silent in the face of bereavement..."

Not so. It makes one more thoughtful in the choice of words; a lesson that can be usefully applied to many other circumstances.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I suspect that's a rare reaction, though. "I'm sorry to hear that" and the like are normal statements expressing sorrow, regardless of this one person's confusion. I certainly would never say it to him/her again, but that's true of just about any statement--someone can and likely will take it the wrong way, and so it is important to pay attention to what you know of the person. And to cut them some slack if they react badly.

It reminds me of a really odd reaction I ran into last week (obliquely--I wasn't the one who provoked it, though I could have been!). The person was describing a horrible but wholly unpredictable medical diagnosis, and she got really angry when anyone would attempt to sympathize by saying something like "my cousin survived that ten years ago." She seemed to be taking it as a way of saying "you're over-reacting," though from all I could see, what the people were doing was attempting to offer her hope.

I guess we just have to do the best we can.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I just realised that "I'm sorry to hear that" has a rather beautiful translation, not in Dutch, but in the Lower Saxon dialect that is my mother tongue (t Begroot mie). It expresses an amount of feeling sorry, without implying that you're guilty.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Not so. It makes one more thoughtful in the choice of words; a lesson that can be usefully applied to many other circumstances.

If the most commonly used locution in the English language for expressing condolences to someone who is grieving can get you excoriated, what is the point in trying to thoughtfully choose words? The bar is too high. There is nothing one could say that somebody, somewhere, wouldn't take offense to. Seriously, "I'm sorry to hear of your loss" IS a thoughtful choice of words. Your acquaintance was simply wrong.

Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I guess we just have to do the best we can.

As someone currently going through the immediate aftermath of my mother's unexpected death, I have been taking everything anyone says as evidence that they want to express their sympathy and love. However badly they phrase themselves, they are still trying to make a connection with me to let me know they share my sadness.

I say this as the sister of someone who makes a joke of everything, including Mum's death. Its his way of coping, and boy does it rile me. But I know this is how he expresses his sadness - he's an emotional person who doesn't have the words to express his emotions in ways I can. He has done his best to tone it down, and I have (successfully) managed not to react angrily.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I agree - the proper approach is to take it as a sincere expression of sorrow pure and simple, normally not of any sort of admission of blame (I accept that there may be some instances where that is so). OK, it may be a platitude, all sorts of other expressions may also be platitudes. but that does not mean that there is no genuine feeling behind.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

I was away from church for a few weeks when my Dad died in another town. When I got back an elderly man who often sits next to me gave me a hug. I was totally gobsmacked as he is an undemonstrative, self-contained person - but it was lovely. Most of my surprise was because I find unexpected hugs difficult to deal with, but this was healing.

The thing is that that sometimes the most unlikely (to me) people can get it so right.

I think Arabella is right about people wanting to express their sympathy and love. Sometimes I think of the enormity of the loss someone has experienced and I know the words won't ever be enough. I get tongue tied and mumble about being sorry for their loss - which at least acknowledges it.

Fortunately no one has ever said, God does not send any more than we can bear to me, as that would probably be more than I could bear with equanimity.

(or maybe the fact that no one has is a sign that God doesn't).

Huia

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Not everyone is linguistically skilled enough or has the people skills to know how to approach someone who has suffered loss. The awkward words may be used with just as much feeling and caring as the clever appropriate words. I think, although it hurts, we should be grateful that someone cares enough to approach us with sympathy, even though they have done so in a gauche fashion.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

I agree with bib - I see this on Facebook a lot, when people post about their own losses. I have some very articulate friends who post beautifully-worded, moving eulogies to the people they've lost. And I have other friends whose level of education, articulation and command of the English language is quite low, and they repost simplistic, sentimental memes to express their grief and their love and appreciation for the people they've lost. I find the memes really corny, but I know that it's not that their grief isn't just as strong as my more articulate friends - just that their ability to express it isn't so advanced. And that ability, or lack thereof, will extend to what they say to try to comfort others who are grieving.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Surely, too, it depends on your relationship with the person giving the platitudes/sympathy/whatever. If it's a close friend who knows you well, then their response is likely to be better attuned to your needs and personality, and will be more emotional and instinctive - so an 'Oh shit' may be more appropriate. And if it's not, then you have that kind of relationship where you can tell them, and tell them what kind of support you'd appreciate.

But personally, I wouldn't want a deep, emotional response from, say, colleagues I don't know so well. Surely most people don't want that level of engagement with everyone they tell, when they're just trying to get through the day and function. I think I'd rather have a simple 'I'm sorry - is there anything I can do?' from most people, and then have a couple of people I'm closer to that I could speak more candidly with.

I don't think there is necessarliy a right and wrong. Some people really seem to prefer the platitudes. It's all about context - about the individual situation and the preferences and personality of the person grieving. And if you don't know them well, often better to say one of the simple etiquette codes like 'I'm sorry'.

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:

quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Someone pointed out somewhere that to say "I'm sorry" is absurd, unless you are actually responsible for the person's condition...
That someone was an idiot.
I would humbly disagree with you. The person who put me on the spot with that was not an idiot.

Quite so. It was wrong of me to make such a statement about somebody of whom I know nothing.

That doesn't change the fact that the statement was ridiculous, and that the lack of reasoning that led to it could only be justified by the sense of grief that the person was feeling. Grieving people are allowed not to think sensibly, and yes, those of us who seek to console them ought always to have a care for what we say so that we do not cause unnecessary hurt.

However, as has been said earlier, a policy of avoiding perfectly normal uses of the English language just because one person on one occasion misunderstood and took offence seems a very difficult one to maintain, nor can I see what merit there might be to it.

If I lose a loved one, I would be grateful for people to express sorrow, and I like to think that I wouldn't tell them off for it.

If I'm having a hard time because I'm upset or frustrated by the prejudices faced by people who tick the boxes I tick, and I turn to a friend in my upset and explain why I'm so frustrated, 'I understand' is exactly what I want to hear, because there's little worse than being upset by other people's prejudices and negative attitudes than turning to a friend with that upset, only to find that they can't see why you have a reason to be upset in the first place.

Even - or rather especially - if my friend doesn't tick the same boxes, my response should be, 'Thank you', and not, 'You shouldn't be using (insert word/expression of choice)'.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

That sounds like a semantic-pragmatic difficulty, if a person seriously thinks that 'I'm sorry' can only mean 'I apologise'. The literal, and main, meaning of 'sorry' is 'feeling sorrow'. It can also mean specifically feeling remorse, but that is just one meaning.

And 'I'm sorry' is also a social code to express sympathy for someone if they suffer a loss, to show you care about them, even if you aren't literally feeling full of sorrow. Just like 'How are you?' 'Fine' is a social code for acknowledging each other.

People get weird about taking words very literally, or taking only one particular meaning of the word. I don't understand this, unless they genuinely have a semantic-pragmatic disorder, which most don't. They often just like to be pedantic, or to play one-up-manship games.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Not referring to a mourning situation, but I remember talking to a young man I used to work with. He complained that his sister told her son that the boy ought to say "I'm sorry" when he'd accidentally hurt his little sister during play. My young colleague said that since he didn't intend to hurt her, he shouldn't feel obligated to apologize. I pointed out to him that if while we were working, he accidentally stepped on my foot (and he was a big guy! [Waterworks]

) he would likely apologize although we both would know it wasn't intentional and that I wouldn't blame him. He would just be sorry that it happened and that I was in pain. He had to admit I was right. I think I changed his mind on that one.

Posted by Beenster (# 242) on :

Dumb platitudes are exhausting - the endless biting of the tongue or however you deal with it.

But, I try and afford sympathy to the dumb platituder (is that a word) as they are trying to be kind.

What I can't abide by - and I know one girl who does this in a package - is the one-upmanship, what she would have done and the belittling.

I have to have a sinus operation. Her response is "at least it's your sinuses and not your bottom ... me I had .... " yawn and then follows a litany of her diseases (many).

Or if I have a problem at work (frequent) she says "well I would have said bla bla bla bla bla" then follows the one-upmanship of how much tougher her job was and my job isn't that difficult.

I don't speak to her any more. Happily she doesn't speak to me.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

I think (hope might be a better word) it gets easier as we get older.

A lot of the platitudes are an effort to make things right. Death - you can have another child, he's in a better place, she was old (true but she's my Mom and I want her here !) Illness, injury - others are worse off, crutches are good exercise, you'll be fine (some body parts not working right is "fine"?). It's wanting to "kiss it and make it well", what won't ever be fully well again.

Older people have lived through it, most know things are not going to be fine. The pain of your spouse's death will dim, you'll learn ways to adapt to the handicap and give up some activities no longer possible, but the pain will always be there and sometimes pop up and bite you hard.

Older folks seem more likely to say "I'm sorry" or "that hurts" - acknowledge the pain and don't try to fix or deny it.

There are still some "you haven't gotten over that yet?" or "mine was worse" etc but I think not as many because there's more empathy of experience.

Not always, just last week I was told "it doesn't seem like it right now but it's probably a blessing." Which may be true objectively but that doesn't make it the right thing to say! She meant well. You've got to cling to "they mean well." (Except for the few times they don't!)

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :

I was glad to have read this thread, as yesterday I was confronted by a friend in great distress (her father has been diagnosed with terminal cancer, < 12 months to live, probably).

I realised that my instinct was to try and comfort her, by saying all sorts of things that logically should bring comfort but emotionally would not - in fact, there is nothing that will bring comfort in that situation. All you can offer is love and sympathy.

Reminded me of the time I was telling a friend of my patented method for writing a condolence card. Blow me, but three days later her father died and I had to write her one! To my immense delight she told me later she'd kept it and referred to it when she had to write them [Smile]

Mrs. S, polishing her platitudes

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :

I am so sorry you are feeling this way. It must be very hard. Whatever I say seems so inadequate. There are no words, are there? My thoughts and prayers are with you. <<<air hugs>>>>

Lots of love to you and yours. It is a mighty loss.

(exit, shaking head sadly).

BL. Queen of platitudes. What? You expect me to THINK before I open my mouth, analyse what is worthy of my feelings or theirs and what is not, mentally scroll through several options and then say something intelligent and deep? Puhleeze. Then I will be accused of not being genuine. Some of us are just mere mortals, who are doing our best, without ignoring the person and their situation entirely. Crucify me for being inadequate, but its probably the best people like me can do.

Posted by Cherubim (# 18514) on :

There's nothing you can do to stop anyone saying anything. If you are plagued by people being platitudinous then avoid them where possible. These people rarely are interested in knowing how people fare, because it really embarrasses them and they don't know how to cope. They just think that it will go away, and when it doesn't then offering a platitude should be enough to shut you up long enough for them to either A) make their escape or B) change the subject. Get in there first and don't let them get anywhere near the subject.

Dismiss it yourself by saying that they are the same as they were yesterday and ask after them. In truth, they aren't actually interested in your life, they are only interested in theirs and it's themselves they want talk about.

Such people are predictable and demand to be treated predictably or not at all.

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

Welcome to the Ship, Cherubim. There is a welcome thread as a fixed thread at the top of All Saints board where you can introduce yourself if you like. It is a good idea too to check each board to get the feel of it. Heaven is fairly light, queries, easy discussions. All Saints is basically support, while Hell is for rants and Purgatory for more serious discussions. Circus is self explanatory and Kerygmania for discussion of biblical passages. Dead Horses sees those topics which are often debated but a conclusion is rarely reached.

The Styx sees technical discussions and has a thread specifically for practising UBB coding. Queries about Hosts rulings go there too.

Enjoy sailing.

Lothlorien AS Host.

Posted by Bronwyn (# 52) on :

I struggle as my daughter has fragile X syndrome causing anxiety (to the point of being medicated when she was 6 with adult tablets) my father a carrier is also affected differently in that he looses his balance a lot, before physio was falling daily. It also leads to my issues of anxiety and depressssion infertility and some other struggles.
Mostly I don't say all issues at once but when I see Miri struggling I don't want to be told much. I want acknowledgment it's hard for her. Hard for me.

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

[Votive]

Posted by Bronwyn (# 52) on :

I had a situation where a mother rang and told me about a horrific issue. I was if you like very upset anyone would have to go through the situation. I had no words. I just wanted to hug her. Saying anything seemed corny. I ended up saying I've no words. She told me a lot. Nothing I could say would have made this situation better. So I listened. I listened and I listened.

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