quote:

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Do NOT burst out laughing when a parishioner tells you you're not authorised to preach a sermon because you're female. The uproarious laughter may discombobulate the neighbouring tables in the cafe.

---

quote:

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Hosts should feel free to enquire as to what the purpose of a thread is if it's unclear from the opening post. In particular, if the OP does not seem to lend itself to discussion, the poster should be invited to outline what they intended Shipmates would discuss (assuming that they did, in fact, have such an intention). In most parts of the Ship this enquiry needs to be polite. Hellhosts, of course, are free to express themselves in whatever manner they see fit.

---

quote:

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Summon all the frustration you felt about being told you were too stupid to pass basic science classes in school, know that it was all part of The Devil's plan, and use it to power the righteousness of your truth-yelling whenever your views about Young Earth Creationism are challenged by small children who just found out about how awesome dinosaurs were.

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quote:

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Remember that ordination confers total rightness to you. You are then above the law, above contradiction, because any criticism of you is then criticism of Gods Church, and so of God.

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quote:

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It is entirely sufficient to repeat scripture verbatim. All the interpretation necessary has already been done by the experts who constructed the version you are reading.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:

---

Remember that ordination confers total rightness to you. You are then above the law, above contradiction, because any criticism of you is then criticism of Gods Church, and so of God.

---

What happens when I am ordained p5.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I didn't realise Hell was for discussion. I thought it was for bitching and angry rants.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I didn't realise Hell was for discussion. I thought it was for bitching and angry rants.

---

We didn't get one of those either. I haven't a damn clue whether Evensong was trying to say this was something she read, this was something that happened, this was something she was told would happen. And exactly what she's outraged about.

I can make some guesses, but I'm peeved about having to guess.

---

quote:

---

Be wary of using humour in sermons and in general conversations with the brethren as many may not share your sense of humour. You must be especially cautious if you are were raised by the English when others were not. At all costs, do NOT use humour when referring to other clergy present when preaching your second ever sermon. You may even find yourself placement-less and developing a reputation as a "difficult student". All is not lost however. A particularly inimitable priest that likes a challenge may just take you on as a Curate - even after a Bishop's warning.

---

quote:

---

A steaming pile of odourous crap dressed up in spiritual words is still a steaming pile of crap.

---

quote:

---

continued from pg 35 ... always keeping in mind that a good sermon should be at least 45 minutes long. Congregants like to feel they are "getting their money's worth." If your original idea is running short even after cross referencing scriptures and several practical examples, remember you can always fill out the required time slot with inspirational stories easily found on the internet from sites such as Touching Christian Stories. There's no need to tie these together with a common theme or "point." The closing hymn should provide that final thought to take home.

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quote:

---

I am so over this.

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quote:

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Ultimately, it doesn't matter. If you've gotten this far and can still pretend to believe, you'll do just fine. Because nobody actually cares about your interesting doubts, just so long as you reaffirm their crippling certainties. So cram that wafer in their gob, or splatter them with snake oil, or hook them up to the E-meter, and tell them whatever they want to hear.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

I am so over this.

---

- orfeo diary entry 8/6/15.

---

quote:

---

Always remember that each and every person is made in God's image - even those with a tendency to legalism and melodrama.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:

quote:

---

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. If you've gotten this far and can still pretend to believe, you'll do just fine. Because nobody actually cares about your interesting doubts, just so long as you reaffirm their crippling certainties. So cram that wafer in their gob, or splatter them with snake oil, or hook them up to the E-meter, and tell them whatever they want to hear.

---

- Afterword - RELIGION FOR DUMMIES... (aw, shit - turns out that's a real book)

---

quote:

---

You will be challenged left right and centre by people who believe that being a Christian is a load of tosh. Be gentle with them. They have likely been burnt by bad theology - plenty of it around. The church has much to be repentant of. But don't despair - engagement is much better than indifference; especially from the odd agnostics that shout loud in your direction because they have something of a feeling for the transcendent.

---

quote:

---

Never, ever, attempt to move, change, repaint, reconfigure or dispose of any item of church equipment or furniture, irrespective of its condition, value or utility; nor make any such suggestion to senior church staff, whether lay or ordained.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:

---

Remember that ordination confers total rightness to you. You are then above the law, above contradiction, because any criticism of you is then criticism of Gods Church, and so of God.

---

What happens when I am ordained p5.

---

quote:

---

Remember: the last Minister was always better than the one you have now, however you disliked him/her at the time. S/he was the better preacher, the more diligent visitor, the more organised administrator, the better reconciler. Lose no opportunity of making sure that your present Minister knows this (preferably by innuendo rather than by direct comment). And make sure that the denominational hierarchy are kept well-informed of his/her deficiencies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Remember: the last Minister was always better than the one you have now ...

---

This rule was copied to the Organists' Handbook, with the proviso that the rule doesn't necessarily apply to the immediate predecessor*, but can go back several generations.



* "That's not the way X used to do it", when everyone knows that (a) the choir was rubbish in X's day, and (b) that he died circa. 1975.

[ 08. June 2015, 17:30: Message edited by: Piglet ]
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Which reminds me:

quote:

---

The congregation have memories that go back further than written records, remembering every single event in the church for the last hundred year or more. Accuracy and consistency may not be the major features of this memory, but utter tenacity is

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
"We haven't done it like that before"...

---

quote:

---

That's not the tradition here

---

quote:

---

Unwritten local traditions are more binding than well-known denominational and ecclesial ones. But you'll never discover them until you break them, and even then no-one will inform you directly.

---

quote:

---

You must now amp things up to the next level. Rush around with your arms in the air, with crocodile tears if necessary. Slap yourself around the face until you have red cheeks. Faint outrageously in front of the main detractors.

Let nothing get in your way, the objective here is simple: winning. Those bastards didn't listen when you did things quietly and politely, now is the time to make them listen. No amount of histrionics is too much.

Eventually someone will find a chair and make you tea. You have won.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
Radical changes to the church's constitution or changes to the hymnals (red or blue?) etc will go through the meeting in double quick time and soon be forgotten.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

I am so over this.

---

- orfeo diary entry 8/6/15.

---

quote:

---

Always remember that each and every person is made in God's image - even those with a tendency to legalism and melodrama.

---

- "The Ordinand's Rule Book. Pg 21, Rule # 561."

---

quote:

---

There will never be somewhere big enough to to hide all the bodies ...

---

quote:

---

If you are brought into a slightly divided parish by one group to Fulfil An Agenda, delivering on that Agenda will divide the parish far more and leave it in a ruinous state.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
... "Paintgate" will be remembered, unforgiven long after you've left ...

---

You may jest; at a church of my (slight) acquaintance there was the most almighty row because someone bought and donated some salt and pepper pots without consultation*.

* Presumably the required consultation was with the ACW or Ladies' Guild or whatever; I doubt that even in this bureaucratic age you need a Faculty for salt-and-pepper pots.
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Ah, I've sat in too many rancorous church meetings discussing whether we should move the forsythia bush from one side of the doorway to the other* to take this thread as humourous.

M.

*Went on for about 18 months, perhaps 2 years?
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Tubbs reminded me of this

quote:

---

Before taking on a parish, read all of the material about it, look at what the parish is saying that they want you to do, and build a plan based on your skills and talents to fulfil all of the requirements, and make the church an important place locally and nationally.

Remember while doing this that none of it will happen, because you will spend all of your time negotiating around a non-congregants graveyard request, which will be your lasting legacy.

---

quote:

---

Any item with a brass (or other) commemorative plaque on it, denoting that it was given "in loving memory", may not be - irrespective of condition or utility - disposed of, moved, shoved into a high cupboard, repainted or otherwise interfered with without the explicit written confirmation of at least 3 of said person's surviving relatives and the approval of a minimum of 98% of the current congregation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

You must now amp things up to the next level. Rush around with your arms in the air, with crocodile tears if necessary. Slap yourself around the face until you have red cheeks. Faint outrageously in front of the main detractors.

Let nothing get in your way, the objective here is simple: winning. Those bastards didn't listen when you did things quietly and politely, now is the time to make them listen. No amount of histrionics is too much.

Eventually someone will find a chair and make you tea. You have won.

---

from Brother Machiavelli's Guide to the Tea Rota

Chapter 6: When Those on the Rota are Making Conversation Not Tea

Paragraph titled: When Gentle Hints Do Not Work

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
From the same book, chapter 4:

quote:

---

Any item with a brass (or other) commemorative plaque on it, denoting that it was given "in loving memory", may not be - irrespective of condition or utility - disposed of, moved, shoved into a high cupboard, repainted or otherwise interfered with without the explicit written confirmation of at least 3 of said person's surviving relatives and the approval of a minimum of 98% of the current congregation.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
Ah, I've sat in too many rancorous church meetings discussing whether we should move the forsythia bush from one side of the doorway to the other* to take this thread as humourous.

M.

*Went on for about 18 months, perhaps 2 years?

---

• Congregations reserve the right to have endless re-runs of decisions made at the church meeting if they don’t get the outcome they wanted first time.
• Should the congregation not realise the consequences of a specific decision, even if it was pointed out to them during the meeting / mentioned in material circulated before the meeting / mentioned in the minutes circulated afterwards, this is the Minister’s fault. Same applies if it turns out to be a stupid idea.
• Should the decision be a resounding success, this is because congregational government rocks! Nothing to do with the Minister whatsoever.
• The amount of heat and light a decision causes will be in reverse proportion to its importance.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Which Names Should Be Allowed To Go In The Memorial Book was a good one I remember.

(Tangent – when the memorial book was instituted, a note went in the church newsletter “If anyone wants someone put in the memorial book, please see Wendy”. I wasn’t sure if that meant Wendy was willing to bump people off on request.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
Remember that the Choir are your enemies.

Whatever they say, they are plotting against you.

Don't listen to them - they are only trying to trap you.

---

quote:

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Even without experience or direct training you will be expected to provide IT support on all church related matters

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quote:

---

Originally posted by gog:

quote:

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Even without experience or direct training you will be expected to provide IT support on all church related matters

---

From the Addendum to ministerial training: the real stuff that there was no time for in training

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• Project manage construction projects
• Sort out the finances and the budget in the absense (and sometimes the presence!) of the treasurer
• Clean the church and the grounds, including the loos
• Organise the church pot luck
• Garden
• Church repairs, either by doing them yourself or finding a suitable tradesperson
• Various other jobs that no one else in the congregation fancies doing but need to be done

quote:

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Originally posted by Tubbs:
The Vicar's Wife Big Survival Handbook. Or How I Learnt to Worship God, Love People and Stop Worrying. With the Aid of GIN.

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quote:

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Don't bridle when a parishioner greets you with "Hello Gorgeous". The honeymoon period will be over soon enough.

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quote:

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Returning the greeting with such sallies as, "How's it hanging, sugarballs?" is strongly unadvised. Life ain't fair.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

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Don't bridle when a parishioner greets you with "Hello Gorgeous". The honeymoon period will be over soon enough.

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The Ordinand's Rule Book. Pg 70. Rule 201.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Postscript to "Ministry for Pessimists"

...It ain't that bad - you could be picking brussels sprouts in East Anglia on a cold winter's morning with a biting east wind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

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Don't bridle when a parishioner greets you with "Hello Gorgeous". The honeymoon period will be over soon enough.

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The Ordinand's Rule Book. Pg 70. Rule 201.

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quote:

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If the bride does it during the wedding, you know it already is over..

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

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Don't bridle when a parishioner greets you with "Hello Gorgeous". The honeymoon period will be over soon enough.

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The Ordinand's Rule Book. Pg 70. Rule 201.

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No parishioner of mine has ever greeted me with Hello Gorgeous...not a single one...ever.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

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Don't bridle when a parishioner greets you with "Hello Gorgeous". The honeymoon period will be over soon enough.

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The Ordinand's Rule Book. Pg 70. Rule 201.

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Scribbled into the margin by a nameless wag, probably now Archbishop

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quote:

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Try and use culturally and contextually appropriate language at parish council meetings. Saying a particular decision will probably "come back to bite me in the ass" during your report will not endear you to the bourgeoisie.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

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Don't bridle when a parishioner greets you with "Hello Gorgeous". The honeymoon period will be over soon enough.

---

The Ordinand's Rule Book. Pg 70. Rule 201.

---

No parishioner of mine has ever greeted me with Hello Gorgeous...not a single one...ever.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:

---

Originally posted by gog:

quote:

---

Even without experience or direct training you will be expected to provide IT support on all church related matters

---

From the Addendum to ministerial training: the real stuff that there was no time for in training

---

You will also be expected to:

• Project manage construction projects
• Sort out the finances and the budget in the absense (and sometimes the presence!) of the treasurer
• Clean the church and the grounds, including the loos
• Organise the church pot luck
• Garden
• Church repairs, either by doing them yourself or finding a suitable tradesperson
• Various other jobs that no one else in the congregation fancies doing but need to be done

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
We've had "Who Should Be Allowed to Read from the Bible at the Carol Service".

Tubbs

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

---

Don't bridle when a parishioner greets you with "Hello Gorgeous". The honeymoon period will be over soon enough.

---

The Ordinand's Rule Book. Pg 70. Rule 201.

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No parishioner of mine has ever greeted me with Hello Gorgeous...not a single one...ever.

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Move to Devon.

The traditional greeting there is "Hello, my lover!" The first time that a drop-dead gorgeous 20 something woman says it to you, you'll feel 10 feet tall.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
True, but saying something like "In my opinion, this is a proleptic and eschatologcal opportunity which the Pneuma of God exhorts us to treat as a Kairos moment for ontological change in our understanding of the Kerygma" doesn't go down too well, either.

---

 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Thank you. Such a comment in a PCC meeting is likely to provoke a stunned silence followed by someone saying, "Er ... that's all very well, but the door in the gents' toilet is still sticking and no-one's done anything about it".
 

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Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
True, but saying something like "In my opinion, this is a proleptic and eschatologcal opportunity which the Pneuma of God exhorts us to treat as a Kairos moment for ontological change in our understanding of the Kerygma" doesn't go down too well, either.

---

One of the Ministers at an old church did. Once a Principal of a Bible College, always a Principal of a Bible College. There were times when you did feel like a third year theology graduate.

Tubbs
 

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Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :
 
I think that if Baptist Trainfan is going to say things in a foreign language, a translation should be provided.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Not if he doesn't know what it means and is just showing off ...
 

---

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :
 

quote:

---

There are books written about how to run a well-thought through stewardship campaign but you can ignore them. A sermon and a leaflet on making your will is quite sufficient. In the sermon, say exactly what you feel; if you or your church needs lots of money say so loud and clear, there is no need to explain what you need it for. Don't bother to mention time or other non-financial gifts that your congregation might offer to the church, as they are clearly valueless.

Some might think that talking about making a will to a largely elderly congregation could be tactless, but don't let that bother you. Likewise if a member of the congregation, whom you know suffers from depression, informs you that the sermon caused him to feel suicidal ideation, don't worry. You did not intend to imply that he was worth more to you dead than alive, so you bear no responsibility at all and there is no reason why you should apologise.

Note: when preaching on this important topic, there is no need to mention any of the Bible readings for the day (but of course it is not important enough to justify ignoring the lectionary and choosing appropriate readings).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:

---

There are books written about how to run a well-thought through stewardship campaign but you can ignore them. A sermon and a leaflet on making your will is quite sufficient. In the sermon, say exactly what you feel; if you or your church needs lots of money say so loud and clear, there is no need to explain what you need it for. Don't bother to mention time or other non-financial gifts that your congregation might offer to the church, as they are clearly valueless.

Some might think that talking about making a will to a largely elderly congregation could be tactless, but don't let that bother you. Likewise if a member of the congregation, whom you know suffers from depression, informs you that the sermon caused him to feel suicidal ideation, don't worry. You did not intend to imply that he was worth more to you dead than alive, so you bear no responsibility at all and there is no reason why you should apologise.

Note: when preaching on this important topic, there is no need to mention any of the Bible readings for the day (but of course it is not important enough to justify ignoring the lectionary and choosing appropriate readings).

---

The Bluffer's Guide to Stewardship

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Please note: the above advice does not apply to Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostals, Congregationalists, Independents, Presbyterians, Friends, Brethren, Adventists, Salvationists .... (insert as appropriate) .... who wouldn't know what a Church Commissioner was even if it leaped up and bit them in the face.

And English Heritage/Historic England will not be your friend.

---

Hence why I quoted from the 'Anglican Version'
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Yes, I noticed that - but too late!
 

---

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
From The Bluffer's Guide to Stewardship: Anglican Version: Anglicized Edition -

Stewardship is not an issue about which you need worry your congregation. The Lord has provided the Church Commissioners* who, despite their constant prognostications of doom, have control of resources only slightly less than those of the World Bank. In case of emergency, there will always be money available from somewhere to mend the roof/fix the window/rebuild the church, unless you wish to do something radical** in which case - you're on your own, sunshine.

* Unless you are unfortunate enough to be in a 'daughter' church (Wales, Scotland, Ireland) - then you could try busking

** Toilets, level access, sound system - if it was good enough for Richard Hooker, it should be good enough for you.

---

If only...
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

Don't suggest jokingly to an ex parishioner on the telephone that they sound like they might be a difficult patient after they have discarded the two consultant physicians looking after them in hospital by taking out their names above the bed and crumpling them on the floor and were in limbo waiting for another one. They might just hang up on you.

On the other hand, it could be that their hearing aid wasn't in when you woke them from a deep sleep.

---

quote:

---

DO mention to selectors that you've won another academic award. They love that shit.

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quote:

---

When you are on holiday, you should plan to phone your training incumbent at least once a week, so that they can keep you informed of all the latest developments in the life of the church.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
That is abuse - holidays are holidays.

Clergy, of all people, should keep Sabbath.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I looked like a right fool standing in a telephone booth in the middle of rural Wales, discussing pastoral matters for half an hour.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I looked like a right fool standing in a telephone booth in the middle of rural Wales, discussing pastoral matters for half an hour.)

---

Couldn't you have said that you had run out of coins, couldn't read the phone's number on the dial because it had been vandalised, and couldn't get through to the operator to reverse the charges?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have just upset a church member by refusing to go to a dinner they'd arranged at a time when I'm on holiday. Unfortunately I fell into their trap: "Even though you're on holiday, are you actually away on that day?" and had to dig myself out after I admitted that I was indeed "around".

---

Mmmm. Over time, I've developed the habit of being incredibly vague about my diary to church members. I will tell people that I'm "away" - even if "away" merely means "away from church stuff". I will tell people that my diary is full that evening - "full" meaning I've arranged to spend the evening having a meal out with friends. Or even "full" as in "I'm staying in and watching TV and relaxing for once".

So I make it a habit to never say WHY my diary prevents me from attending their particular event. It just does.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Yes - that was where I got it badly wrong.

After 28 years in the ministry, you'd have thought I'd learned better than that!
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Yeah, I've learned also to say sweetly, "Oh dear, I'm so sorry, I have commitments that day" and if they inquire what those commitments are, I say, "I'd probably better not talk about that" and leave them to infer that there's something confidential going on. If they keep hassling me, I say "I wouldn't talk to other people about your stuff, would I?" Which always shuts them up.

It's perfectly valid for me to have a commitment to my family or even to myself (and a good book and a bowl of popcorn).
 

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Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's perfectly valid for me to have a commitment to my family or even to myself (and a good book and a bowl of popcorn).

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