Thread: School proms Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
Oh I do wish we still had a TICTH thread, because I this would be putting school proms on it.
My cleaner has a teenage daughter who has a school prom in June. Lisa reckons that it's going to cost almost £900 for all that her daughter expects - a beautician to do her makeup, a mobile hair dresser, a limo to take her and her friends, and a couple of hundred pounds for a dress which will be worn once.
The peer pressure is immense.
Whist Lisa was telling me all this, I was getting really angry. We live in a depressed area, but young people are being taught to expect this.
Where has this "prom" thing come from? It's fairly new in this country, and where is the sense of the schools in promoting it?
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Wow, I'm glad we don't have this tradition.
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
When did this awful prom thing find its way over the Atlantic?
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Like Halloween, St Patrick's Day, Mother's Day, Father's Day, and baby showers, it's an imported custom. But people wouldn't do it if they didn't want it. Grandparents Day hasn't caught on, at least, not so you'd notice.
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
A minority of girls spent several hundred at my kids' school, but the school (hurrah!) provided a bus from school to venue and forbade limos.

My daughter had been a bridesmaid a few months earlier and so was able to recycle her bridesmaid's frock and her best friend bought one second hand from E-bay for £50.

Has your cleaner asked other parents what they are spending? Or is she taking her daughter's word for it that "everybody" is spending hundreds? There was a huge variation with us between the highest spenders and the lowest.

We spent just under £100, of which £35 was the cost of the dinner itself, and £15 was the formal photo.
 
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :
 
Have her watch Pretty in Pink. . Even better, instead of blaming the "Yanks" for another cultural import, your friend can explain to her daughter that she is not going to get everything she wants. What a novel concept.
 
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 
I wasn't aware these existed outside the US. Here it's a tradition at pretty much all high schools dating back some time into the last century--at least the 1950s. You're welcome, I guess?
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
y
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
Oh I do wish we still had a TICTH thread, because I this would be putting school proms on it.
My cleaner has a teenage daughter who has a school prom in June. Lisa reckons that it's going to cost almost £900 for all that her daughter expects - a beautician to do her makeup, a mobile hair dresser, a limo to take her and her friends, and a couple of hundred pounds for a dress which will be worn once.
The peer pressure is immense.
Whist Lisa was telling me all this, I was getting really angry. We live in a depressed area, but young people are being taught to expect this.
Where has this "prom" thing come from? It's fairly new in this country, and where is the sense of the schools in promoting it?
£900? Bollocks to that. Maybe this is an opportunity for the girl to start learning that life is full of disappointments.
 
Posted by molopata (# 9933) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Like Halloween, St Patrick's Day, Mother's Day, Father's Day, and baby showers, it's an imported custom. But people wouldn't do it if they didn't want it. Grandparents Day hasn't caught on, at least, not so you'd notice.
Yeh like. Ever heard of cultural expectation and peer pressure stoked by commercial interests? It's only loveless bastards like me who shun flower shops on Valentine's.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Wow, I'm glad we don't have this tradition.
Yet.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
Yes Proms are a tradition in American High Schools but spending 900pounds isn't. You have only yourselves to blame for that. Actually Proms spring from the whole debutante-coming out idea and I believe that started in England before it headed west across the pond.

I went to my Junior and Senior proms and didn't spend anything on the first one and exactly 30 dollars on the second one. Granted that was a long time ago, but still. The first time I wore my cousin's old dress. We did our own hair and make-up and if a seventeen year old girl hasn't learn to do that, now would be a good time. Professionals tend to make young girls look like 35 year-old hookers so why go there?

Limos are a ridiculous frill that no one needs. Girls can lose their virginity just as easily in the boy's father's Buick.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
There was an attempt to have a 'Prom' at the school my children attended: parents were canvassed for views and I, and all of the parents I know, replied that we thought it was a waste of time, effort and money.

The school decided to go ahead anyway but as the day drew closer it became very apparent that the only people who wanted it was a group of very vocal girls and their mothers; the boys, in particular, were pretty anti the whole thing.

Anyway, end result was entertaining, though perhaps not as imagined by the Prom supporters: virtually all the boys insisted on going alone, if they went at all, and flatly refused to dress up. The catering, done by the vocal girls' mothers, was catastrophic and under-done chicken resulted in lots of children being unwell with several hospitalised.

The experiment wasn't repeated.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
We've had proms inflicted on us (and honestly, what the hell's wrong with a school disco?).

Miss Tor found a dress for £60 (which she's worn more than once) and the tickets were iirc £20. We've another prom coming up for the end of 6th form, but she's already got another dress (£50, and her grandmother paid for it).

Sigh.

Master Tor didn't go to his post-GCSE prom. We stayed in and watched some dvds. Much more his scene.

But some people spent nigh-on a grand for their offspring. We simply don't have the money for that, and Miss Tor knows it. She cuts her cloth accordingly. Wise girl.
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I asked my son to estimate the percentage of girls spending hundreds of pounds at his Prom; he guessed that 50% were spending lavishly, (though not £900!) but 50% were borrowing dresses, doing their own make up etc.

I really think that Lisa should ask around other parents; I find it hard to believe that many are spending £900 on one Prom.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
They are associated with high school graduation here in western Canada and traditionally called "grad". The imported "prom" label has been more common as of late, but then so is the term "hoodie" for "bunny hug" (hoodie being slang for an uncircumcised penis).
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

Limos are a ridiculous frill that no one needs. Girls can lose their virginity just as easily in the boy's father's Buick.
Most European cars are much smaller than a Buick.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

Limos are a ridiculous frill that no one needs. Girls can lose their virginity just as easily in the boy's father's Buick.
Most European cars are much smaller than a Buick.
But still large enough, one presumes, to transport two people safely, and even as suggested, room for a quick romp as well if the mood strikes.

With my daughter we just gave her a budget (and yes, far less than $900). Some years she blew it all on a dress and did her own hair, make up, and dad's car. Other years she borrowed a dress or recycled an old one and was able to go to the hairdressers (never a "mobile" hairdresser, though) for a fancy 'do. I'm a big fan of the budget approach-- give them a reasonable amount of money and let the kid decide which aspects are most important to him or her, and where to skimp/save.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Doc Tor: (and honestly, what the hell's wrong with a school disco?).
Disco.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Yes Proms are a tradition in American High Schools but spending 900pounds isn't. You have only yourselves to blame for that. Actually Proms spring from the whole debutante-coming out idea and I believe that started in England before it headed west across the pond.

I went to my Junior and Senior proms and didn't spend anything on the first one and exactly 30 dollars on the second one. Granted that was a long time ago, but still. The first time I wore my cousin's old dress. We did our own hair and make-up and if a seventeen year old girl hasn't learn to do that, now would be a good time. Professionals tend to make young girls look like 35 year-old hookers so why go there?

Limos are a ridiculous frill that no one needs. Girls can lose their virginity just as easily in the boy's father's Buick.
Steph Curry could do no better.
[Overused]
 
Posted by St Deird (# 7631) on :
 
Why are the parents paying? When I had my school formal, I spent my own savings on a (cheap) dress, getting my hair done, and chipping in for a group limo. And I did my makeup myself. It's a good lesson for teens in budgeting.
 
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
Neighbor's (male) kid said he was going to hire a limo for the prom. Neighbor said "Fine; how are you going to pay for it?" and had nothing to do with it, no loaning a credit card, no calling to make the reservations. The kid got together wiih friends and they rented a limo together.

Kids old enough to go to a prom are old enough to earn their own prom costs and figure out how to make their dreams affordable.

If parents want to chip in, fine, but I would make it a stated amount not an open ended wording like "a dress" that could end up costing 10 times what you had in mind.

One friend offered $200 and pointed out if the girl bought or borrowed a used dress, she'd have money to do some other things - buy some shoes, or stock up on makeup, or take a few friends to a movie. The gift was not "a prom dress" but $200 which could be used for anything.

900? Outrageous.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
When I was a senior in high school (back before electricity and automobiles) a group of us spent prom evening at a boardwalk amusement park and had a great time with no dresses, corsages, limos, hair stylists, etc. Monday morning the kids who had gone to the prom complained about bad food, a lousy band, etc., etc. We just smiled.
 
Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Back when I were a lass, we just celebrated by going to the pub (we had to make sure we went into the other bar from where the teachers were celebating).

M.
 
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
It's an opportunity for a few children and their parents to boast. At the college local to my dad, some even arrived in helicopters.

I'd suggest (and this is what the Misses Mark all did) is to wear the best clothes you have, accept the snide comments and just enjoy yourself.

They'll be the ones payinga few hundred ppunds for a night out - you'll get it for much less and you'll both be at the same function.

[ 22. January 2016, 06:42: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
 
Posted by Mrs Shrew (# 8635) on :
 
We had a prom at school, but at the end of 6th form ( a levels- so when we were 18 rather than what seems to be becoming more common of one at end of gcses and each year after that.

I did buy a new dress for it, but I seem to recall it costing about £40 ( this was 2004), and made a shawl, mostly because that was a nice thing to do on Sunday afternoon with mum.

Tickets were maybe £20-£25 but that included a fairly sizeable meal, and the run of a local historical house and garden.

I think the majority in my year attended, and a fair proportion, but not all, and very few of my friends, brought dates ( we were an all girls school)

A few did hire cars, my friends and I arranged a group car pool with two willing dads. The evening was great fun but because it was a night with friends, not because it was some huge fancy affair.
 
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Limos are a ridiculous frill that no one needs. Girls can lose their virginity just as easily in the boy's father's Buick.
Though having dad upfront driving said Buick would inhibit things.

But, the limo driver would also probably do the same.
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I wonder whether the lavish "prom" has come about because young ladies are less likely to have a wedding for many years (if ever), and so this is an alternative opportunity to dress up, be pampered, show themselves off to their best? As mentioned above, the "Season" is no longer a thing, which removed another opportunity for the more society ladies.

But I do think the expected excesses are ridiculous. Our two had something more akin to an end of year disco, which was low key and, while there was an expectation of dressing up smartly, it was not the rappers wet dream that seems to be expected by some. It was an opportunity to get them some reasonable, smart clothes that they have worn a few times since.

However, I do have boys.

I like the idea of giving a fixed amount of money - that reflects the celebratory aspect, but not the "give me everything" aspect. If they want to spend more, they can earn it. And yes, I expect they will complain loudly that "you never give me anything. I hate you". I would reduce the amount by a tenner for each outburst, personally.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
Yeh like. Ever heard of cultural expectation and peer pressure stoked by commercial interests? It's only loveless bastards like me who shun flower shops on Valentine's.
Yes, I'd taken that for granted as a built-in factor. If you present something attractively people will usually buy it. Then their friends (or in this case, children) will want it. Until it becomes the norm. Proms are likely here to stay and will probably become more and more competitive, in the same way as children's parties.

[ 22. January 2016, 07:28: Message edited by: Ariel ]
 
Posted by passer (# 13329) on :
 
£900 (c. $1250)?

Sounds to me rather like Lisa is asking for a pity-me handout.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
When did this awful prom thing find its way over the Atlantic?
About 15 years ago. It has grown to crazy proportions since.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
When did this awful prom thing find its way over the Atlantic?
About 15 years ago. It has grown to crazy proportions since.
In much the same way that the Wedding Industry took off in 1981, after Charles aand Diana's wedding.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Teenagers? They've missed out if they've had to wait that long! I remember being amazed to read about infant school proms, every bit as grand as the senior school ones!

The whole competitive parent thing can get quite out of hand. Perhaps children should be given an either/or choice: mum can either afford to give them a computer/new bike or a prom experience lasting one day. But not both. If nothing else, it will be good life experience for the inevitable 'posh wedding lasting one day or lump sum towards your first house' dilemma....
 
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
When did this awful prom thing find its way over the Atlantic?
My school invented proms (or something similar) just after I left. The reasoning wasn't 'aping the Americans' but something rather less edifying.

My school was a 'good' school but a tradition of low-grade mischief-making had developed on the last day before we left at 16/18 (chucking eggs mostly - although someone once managed to get the school into the local paper by hiding a tape recording of something indecent inside the school organ, timed to go off during assembly). The argument was that since it was our last day anyway, as long as we didn't do anything that merited actual expulsion there were no sanctions the staff could apply against us.

In my year the staff combatted this by simply not telling us when our last day would be - we were expecting to break up on a Friday, and on Wednesday we were all summoned and told to go home.

After I left, the school decided that holding a celebration for the last day would create a less adversarial atmosphere, and presumably also give the staff an extra sanction against naughty boys.
 
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
My cleaner has a teenage daughter who has a school prom in June. Lisa reckons that it's going to cost almost £900 for all that her daughter expects - a beautician to do her makeup, a mobile hair dresser, a limo to take her and her friends, and a couple of hundred pounds for a dress which will be worn once.
The peer pressure is immense.
Key word is "expects". I suspect what's going on is peers expressing wishes as if realities for boasting rights, but the realities will be less than expressed. The peers simply aren't admitting in public that their dress is borrowed from an aunt and the hairdo is done by a friend.

Peer pressure is often about appearances, not realities. Trouble arises when some gullible or literal-minded teen believes the boasting.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
We had a bonfire on the shingle beach, swam a bit (mostly in cozzies) and burned our school uniform brown knickers and brown and green ties.

At college, we had a run in with the Principal who wanted to stop the last night madnesses, and all, except one, whose father complained, and I, who negotiated since I had already negotiated staying on for family reasons, were sent down. Only a few had done anything at all naughty, but there you go. Strangely, this never appeared on anyone's records.

What really got my goat about this was that said Principal, having lost her cool at 2 in the morning, understandably, then tripped merrily to non-denominational Communion in the morning, where I saw her and thought how good it was that we could share together after the ructions of the night. And then, called the President of the Student's Union in and issued her damning rulings which were utterly vindictive.

[ 22. January 2016, 14:08: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
We had a bonfire on the shingle beach, swam a bit (mostly in cozzies) and burned our school uniform brown knickers and brown and green ties.

At college, we had a run in with the Principal who wanted to stop the last night madnesses, and all, except one, whose father complained, and I, who negotiated since I had already negotiated staying on for family reasons, were sent down. Only a few had done anything at all naughty, but there you go. Strangely, this never appeared on anyone's records.

What really got my goat about this was that said Principal, having lost her cool at 2 in the morning, understandably, then tripped merrily to non-denominational Communion in the morning, where I saw her and thought how good it was that we could share together after the ructions of the night. And then, called the President of the Student's Union in and issued her damning rulings which were utterly vindictive.
Vindictive is the word! Starting with the school uniform of brown knickers and brown and green ties.
[Tear]
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Now that schools have to compete against each other, most put on a prom because kids would choose another school otherwise.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
When did this awful prom thing find its way over the Atlantic?
About 15 years ago. It has grown to crazy proportions since.
In much the same way that the Wedding Industry took off in 1981, after Charles and Diana's wedding.
At least you can't blame that on Americans.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Touchy.
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
If the daughter 'expects' it to cost £900, then the mother can jolly well 'expect' the daughter to pay for it out of money the daughter's worked for!

It's a pernicious tradition that, round here, is even permeating to primary school level: the school which our three kids attend is having a 'Leavers' Prom' for Year 6s (our eldest boy's year) in the summer and I am making it clear to him that, whilst I'm happy to chip in a few bob of my own, any further outlay has got to be funded by his nibs, either from saved pocket money or from money earned by him volunteering for extra chores between now and then. The same rule will apply to my daughter and younger son when they get to this stage, and indeed to any subsequent events during their teenage years.

My sons, being boys, aren't terribly interested in the concept; my daughter on the other hand loves any excuse to dress up and Mrs B and I are therefore looking forward to doing fuck all round the house over the next 2+ years whilst she works as our paid domestic skivvy #whatminimumwage? [Devil]

[ 22. January 2016, 16:46: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Now that schools have to compete against each other, most put on a prom because kids would choose another school otherwise.
Really? There are a significant number of families who would chose the school where their children are going to spend several years of their lives based on the quality of the end-of-school party?
 
Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
Eldest Rogueling's transport to his prom was a narrow boat that a friend's parents owned. I waved to them as I cycled home from work and they changed into smart clothes when they arrived. A few beers were drunk on the way and at the venue and the total cost was about a tenner each. They had fun.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Like Halloween, St Patrick's Day, Mother's Day, Father's Day, and baby showers, it's an imported custom. But people wouldn't do it if they didn't want it.
Unless you are specifically separating England from the rest of the U.K., Halloween is home grown. Except for the commercialism, you'd be hard put to find something America invented in its celebration. St. Patrick's day requires ignoring Northern Ireland as celebrations of St. Patrick predate the creation of N.I.
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Really? I don't remember it in my childhood.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Really? I don't remember it in my childhood.
Like anything, there are periods where things fall from favour. Doesn't mean they never existed. A quick web search will find the references.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
We had a bonfire on the shingle beach, swam a bit (mostly in cozzies) and burned our school uniform brown knickers and brown and green ties.

At college, we had a run in with the Principal who wanted to stop the last night madnesses, and all, except one, whose father complained, and I, who negotiated since I had already negotiated staying on for family reasons, were sent down. Only a few had done anything at all naughty, but there you go. Strangely, this never appeared on anyone's records.

What really got my goat about this was that said Principal, having lost her cool at 2 in the morning, understandably, then tripped merrily to non-denominational Communion in the morning, where I saw her and thought how good it was that we could share together after the ructions of the night. And then, called the President of the Student's Union in and issued her damning rulings which were utterly vindictive.
Vindictive is the word! Starting with the school uniform of brown knickers and brown and green ties.
[Tear]
This was two separate establishments. (I have carefully avoided the descriptive word of the brown where navy or bottle would be applied to other colours.)

The odd thing was that in both establishments the person in charge when I joined had been of the generation brought up on the principles of Miss Beale and Miss Buss and a dedication to the education of women, and who had had an enlightened view of what would happen at the end of term. Both were succeeded by career building women who weren't and didn't and were of the opinion that if you want something slightly disordered to stop, you ban it, and expect obedience.

The college one had had a bad start with her appointment being opposed because she had come from South Africa. Instead of standing up before the college and explaining that she had come from there because she could not continue in complicity with apartheidt, she stayed silent on the subject.

When the college closed down, she had revenge. Or so it was explained to me. There were offers made by both the nearby newish University, and a poly or technical college - not sure what its status was. Despite most of the staff wanting to join the Uni, she used her veto to merge with the lesser establishment, which then closed down all the buildings and establishment. She would probably not have been on the same end of the political spectrum as the Uni, which had a reputation.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
Hallowe'en certainly existed in my English childhood. We carved jack-o-lanterns out of swedes, and there may have occasionally been a party.

It was a very low-key thing, though - the shops didn't have racks of Hallowe'en merchandise, and we would never have banged on random doors to solicit sweets.

I didn't encounter trick-or-treating until I was an adult living in London. Some of the local kids turned up with carrier bags hoping for chocolate. As I recall, we invited them in and gave them slices of cake.
 
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Really? I don't remember it in my childhood.
My Dad tells me stories about his church boys' brigade 'meeting Lord Nelson' at Hallowe'en.

One boy would be blindfolded and then be invited to touch his stump. (Someone's bare elbow.)

Then they would be invited to touch his eye socket. (A hollowed out tangerine.)

I don't remember what else was involved but I'm sure it was equally Christian ...
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
the school which our three kids attend is having a 'Leavers' Prom' for Year 6s (our eldest boy's year)
When I was that age, we had a "school disco" at school, in the school hall. Nobody bought special clothes or anything, though.

My senior school had a leavers' ball (rented dinner jackets and posh frocks), but I don't think anyone would have paid to have their hair and makeup done. I didn't go - the school disco has never really been my idea of fun. I don't regret not going, either.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
For Halloween, we did apple bobbing at Guides. Also attempting to eat buns hung on a rope across the room.
 
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
Halloween existed in the UK, of course. But the tradition in England when I was a lad to hold a small party with games such as bobbing for apples has been almost entirely replaced by the imported Trick or Treat tradition. And the incredible level of commercialism.

But, excessive commercialisation is pretty much universal for any form of celebration these days. Which includes school parties marking the end of year. Hence the move from informal disco's to proms - with the inclusion of people commercialising the whole thing with limo's, special hair do's, one-off use clothing ...
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Going house to house on Hallow'een asking for food goes back to the 16th C. in Britain and Ireland and only the 1920's in America.
Yes, in recent history at least, the festivities were more subdued, but the concepts are all UK and Ireland. It is not so much an import as a reimport.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Going house to house on Hallow'een asking for food goes back to the 16th C. in Britain and Ireland and only the 1920's in America.
Yes, in recent history at least, the festivities were more subdued, but the concepts are all UK and Ireland. It is not so much an import as a reimport.
Spot on.

It's multinational corporations that pimp out holidays as gross consumption fests, and various individuals who make the choice to support that.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Going house to house on Hallow'een asking for food goes back to the 16th C. in Britain and Ireland and only the 1920's in America.
Yes, in recent history at least, the festivities were more subdued, but the concepts are all UK and Ireland. It is not so much an import as a reimport.
I came over from Ireland in the 70s and none of my classmates knew anything about Halloween (or St Patrick). Then some years later there was some kind of sudden explosion into the national consciousness of an autumn festival that involved zombies and vampires as well as witches. The traditional elements of fortune-telling, ghost stories, apple games, never got a look in, presumably dropped as the products of a less sophisticated age: this was about fancy dress parties with a macabre theme and doing "trick or treat" and getting as much chocolate, or even money, as you could. And hopefully things not turning nasty with youths shoving fireworks through letterboxes in the name of "trick or treat".

Halloween is essentially a fire festival with the theme of keeping the darkness at bay at the turn of the old year. Of course customs evolve and change, but it does seem a shame that the old traditions have been so completely discarded in favour of what is really just another generic party but with a black-and-orange spooky theme to distinguish it from all the other parties.
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
"Guising" at Hallowe'en was a big thing when I was a kid, and my parents and grandparents also went guising when they were young. We dressed up, and went round the neighbours "guising" i.e. telling jokes or reciting a poem and getting sweets, monkey nuts and oranges in return. Some neighbours might have a game set up in their house - apple bobbing, or eating a treacle scone hanging from a string. When we were older, peeling an apple in one strip, then throwing it over your shoulder was a way of foretelling a future husband - the peel was supposed to land in the shape of his initials.

In some ways, it was more of an event then than it is now, because kids just go door-to-door now, rather than going into people's houses, and costumes are bought rather than being made.

One of my neighbours put hours into his kids' costumes; he had four kids and each costume was passed down through them. The best was a sausage made out of chicken wire and papier mache, which was a feature of Hallowe'en for eight years, each child getting to use it for two years.

My costumes tended to be more basic - I wore my brother's football strip one year, and my mother's wedding dress another year, for example. However one year my mother made me a Mary, Queen of Scots outfit (MQS before she was beheaded!)
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
theee are references to "mumming and guising" and going house to house asking for food in Ireland from the 19thC. Essential trick or treating. I agree that the loss of the history is sad. It can coexist with newer expressions.

ETA: X-Post with NEQ. Seems every time we have a "bloody American cultural imperialism"! thread, we have posts which challenge it. Doesn't stop the reoccurrence of such threads though.

[ 22. January 2016, 21:14: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
When we were older, peeling an apple in one strip, then throwing it over your shoulder was a way of foretelling a future husband - the peel was supposed to land in the shape of his initials.

Usually an S or a lower case e. Trying to imagine it into the desired initial required a great deal of wishful thinking.

Then there was looking into the mirror by candlelight to see the image of the future partner over your shoulder.

Some of these things were written up in Leon Garfield's "Apprentices" series.
 
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
We definitely had halloween where I grew up in the north of England in the late 60s, early 70s. I think a lot of the festivals blend into each other over the centuries. We always had "Mischief Night" on Halloween. It gave kids the permission to knick-knock (knock on someone's door and run away giggling). A few days later it was bonfire night, with all the treacle toffee and apple bobbing and fireworks. I think these merge together in the collective memory. But I definitely remember Halloween being about ghosts and witches and goblins, even around 1970. I did notice, in the early 80s (perhaps because I was living in a dodgy part of town) that mischief night and "penny for the guy" were starting to coalesce into a kind of protection racket - "give us money or you'll regret it Sir."
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Yes, "Penny for the Guy" has vanished from the scene now. I did see one briefly on a street corner in Oxford about 15 years ago when a little lad with a Dublin accent you could cut with a knife asked me for a penny for the guy, but that was the only time I'd seen it in what, a good 30 years or so.
 
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
theee are references to "mumming and guising" and going house to house asking for food in Ireland from the 19thC. Essential trick or treating.
There is a distinct difference between guising (performing a song or reciting a poem, or similar, and obtaining some treat in return) and trick or treat (demanding treats with menaces).
 
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I came over from Ireland in the 70s and none of my classmates knew anything about Halloween (or St Patrick). Then some years later there was some kind of sudden explosion into the national consciousness of an autumn festival that involved zombies and vampires as well as witches.
I have a theory that the explosion into the national interest of the more American expressions of Halloween. I put it down to a single event. The movie E.T., with the prominence of the Halloween celebrations with all the neighbourhood kids out in the street, dressed in ghoulish costumes, trick or treating.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
theee are references to "mumming and guising" and going house to house asking for food in Ireland from the 19thC. Essential trick or treating. I agree that the loss of the history is sad. It can coexist with newer expressions.

ETA: X-Post with NEQ. Seems every time we have a "bloody American cultural imperialism"! thread, we have posts which challenge it. Doesn't stop the reoccurrence of such threads though.
The way I understand it, the "parade/ party" version of Halloween came about as one rural American woman's efforts to curb the growing popularity of the "protection racket" version of Mischief Night that was getting genuinely dangerous in remote homesteads-- think the Great Plains, 1830 or so, towns with a population of 40, ten of that 40 being boys aged 10-19...

Her solution to create a more centralized community event where everyone could have fun, but more or less keep their eyes on each other. If any violent "mischief" did occur, everyone not at the party would be the first people questioned.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
theee are references to "mumming and guising" and going house to house asking for food in Ireland from the 19thC. Essential trick or treating.
There is a distinct difference between guising (performing a song or reciting a poem, or similar, and obtaining some treat in return) and trick or treat (demanding treats with menaces).
All I know of the American version has more menace to the trick or treaters than from them. If you are correct about ET being a source of the resurgence in the UK, the threat is from within, not from without.
Kelly's link does reference violence, but that is from some time ago and isn't, IME, a reflection of the modern celebration of Hallowe'en in Anerica.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Now that schools have to compete against each other, most put on a prom because kids would choose another school otherwise.
Really? There are a significant number of families who would chose the school where their children are going to spend several years of their lives based on the quality of the end-of-school party?
I wish that were so. You underestimate pester power.
Plus parents are starting to save up mney for costumes - helicopters in extreme cases.
They also appreciate the likelihood of better behaviour since prom attendance eligibility is a bribe.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Guising is still a tradition in parts of the Netherlands, on St. Martin's Day (11 November).
 
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
quote:
Plus parents are starting to save up mney for costumes - helicopters in extreme cases.
Great! "I saw it on the internet, luvs. I can't buy you x and y because I have to save up for a helicopter for your school leaving party!"

...and when in 6 and 8 years time, we're still 150 grand short - "never mind dears, if we keep saving maybe I can bring you to your wedding in the helicopter!"

What about lessons and licensing...do you think the odd provisional entitlements which come with a full driving license ('track-laying vehicles' etc...) might cover it? [Smile]
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
leo:Plus parents are starting to save up mney for costumes - helicopters in extreme cases.
Oh I don't know. This one is quite nice for a prom.
 
Posted by Mrs Shrew (# 8635) on :
 
I'm pretty sure that increasing prom flamboyance is not an import of any sort. To me it links in a bit with all the reality TV " become a celebrity in a jungle with a big brother house" crap. Kids are increasingly focused on wanting to be a pop singer with lots of money and fame, and wanting to look glamorous like their favourite reality stars.

We have always celebrated leaving school, and as a couple of people have said, proms are basically school discos but jazzed up with a ton of extras.

If your goals and interests are defined by celebrity TV then of course you are going to want to spend hideous amounts on dresses and limos and hairdressing and suits. Because that is what you see celebrities doing.

AIUI x factor was a UK thing to begin with. And I would put it squarely in the court of "things linked to the popularity of x factor".
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
quote:
Mrs Shrew: To me it links in a bit with all the reality TV " become a celebrity in a jungle with a big brother house" crap.
This started in the Netherlands [Hot and Hormonal]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I don't think we ever had formal celebrations on leaving school. Depending on what exams you were doing, different people finished at different times, even different weeks.

I do remember a wave of people going round getting friends and teachers to sign our school hymn books with a cheery message under their favourite hymn, but there weren't any formal celebrations that I remember. Some of us arranged pub meets afterwards because we were now grown up and could do this, but I don't think most of us did anything much. Leaving school wasn't that big a thing back then.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
Drifting off topic, but enjoying some memories... We lived in a suburb of Montreal when the children were younger. I was younger, too. There was a wonderful Hallowe'en when we all - a mob of parents and children - dressed up and knocked on neighbours' doors to see if they could guess who we were. I was dressed as the character from Bertram Battell's Sideshow. (Anyone remember the production by Ballet Rambert? A lovely, haunting thing as I remember it). It was fun - no demands for cash or sweets; just trudging around chilly streets and laughing until we all got too cold for any more.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
None of the American trick or treaters I know would have the slightest idea what to do if someone refused them the "treat". "Tricks" and mischief/menaces (?) are things that we might possibly hear our great grandparents tell stories about (e.g. turning over outhouses, it's that long ago--back in the days before indoor plumbing for most people). Today it's just a chance to dress in costume and run around in the dark with friends. Even the candy is not foremost for most of them, though it's a rare child that will turn down chocolate.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Drifting off topic, but enjoying some memories...
Let's not do that. It'll be the quickest way to a thread-lock that I know. Heaven is ^ thataway.

DT
HH
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
Sackcloth and ashes.. See you in Heaven. Maybe.
 
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 
I am young enough to have had a school prom. It was not expensive or extravagant - I wore an £18 dress, tickets cost £25, it was a meal and a disco in a local hotel. I went to a girls' school and few people brought male partners, it was mostly friends dancing together. It was just a fun end to school - I don't see the harm. Of course it can get silly, but it doesn't mean the concept of a prom is inherently bad in the same way that OTT weddings don't mean that weddings are inherently bad.
 
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Now that schools have to compete against each other, most put on a prom because kids would choose another school otherwise.
Really? There are a significant number of families who would chose the school where their children are going to spend several years of their lives based on the quality of the end-of-school party?
I wish that were so. You underestimate pester power.
Plus parents are starting to save up mney for costumes - helicopters in extreme cases.
They also appreciate the likelihood of better behaviour since prom attendance eligibility is a bribe.
Because kidz are much more likely to pester their parents to transfer schools for a prom than they are to pester their friends for an invite.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
When I was in High School in the late sixties, our class was asked if we wanted a Senior prom. It was pointed out that the previous year only 10 people showed up and 6 of them were juniors. The class decided not to bother.
 
Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
I was at high school in the 60s and there was no such event as a school formal then. I'm not sure when they hit the area I call home, but they certainly exist nowadays and involve extravagance which makes thing difficult for kids from poorer homes.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
When I left school, all we did was take photos of each other outside the 6th form common room. And then went quietly home as usual. I think we all thought we were far too grown up to do anything grand or silly. (We saved that for university/college [Biased] )
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Halloween when I was a kid in the 70's might have meant a party in someone's house to bob for apples, or an apple hung on a string; the apple tart with a five-pence in it, that kind of thing. We weren't allowed to go guising because our parents said it was 'begging'; and it was shameful to go round our neighbours asking for handouts. Witches hats and gruesome face masks were allowed. But friends who went to the more evangelical churches were banned from 'celebrating' Satan in this way! Times have changed!
 


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