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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Battle for Christianity
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Did any Shipmates see Robert Beckford's epononymous documentary on BBC One last night, 10 minutes later than scheduled due to extended news coverage of the dreadful terrorist attacks in Brussels?
If so, whay did you think?
Overall, I thought it gave a reasonably broad overview of current trends and developments - church growth among migrants and marginalised communities, niche youth-based expressions of church, church plants, vibrant Polish RC congregations ... interesting social action projects ...
The emphasis was solely on the innovative, niche or controversial - so no mention of the quiet increase in cathedral congregations for instance.
Nevertheless, despite some broad-brush elements, I thought it gave a reasonably accurate impression.
I was intrigued by the comment by the academic from Lancaster -who has done a lot of research into contemporary church life in the UK. She observed how the growth in lively and enthusiastic groups was double-edged - these things 'put people off' because most people don't actually want 'religious enthusiasm.' They might want some form of religion to provide a framework and so on - but they don't necessarily want it to be the main thing that defines them.
For my own part, whilst I could understand the appeal of some of the churches and projects featured in the programme and would applaud many of the initiatives - I found most if them singularly unattractive ss places I might actually want to join - but then I'm an awkward so-and-so and been through all the lively stuff and come out the other side wondering what to do next ...
There were statements about these things not being the only way to do or be church - but one did get the impression that the loudness, lights and lairiness were put forward as the way of the future.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I did record it, and will be able to comment when I have actually watched it.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Yes, I saw it, and my reactions were the same as Gamaliel's, including the impression the academic from Lancaster made. I do so hope she's right.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
What struck me about it was an impression that could be entirely wrong on my part, but for what it might be worth it still left me unsettled. I was struck by the examples given as having so much to do with consumerism, fashion and a throw away culture. It looked to me like most of them might be irrelevant in as short a time as fifteen years because they were a kind of expression of throw away culture and appeared to have ditched much of the 'culture' of the church of the last two thousand years. It also struck me just how much of it looked like Pentecostalism and left me wondering why they stayed as Anglicans.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, my comments echo Gamaliel's. It was a bit "bitty" (one could have made two or three programmes out of different aspects of the subject) and I thought that ++Justin was poorly edited. On the other hand there was nothing "sensationalist" about it, it was well researched, and it gave a much more positive picture of the Church than the usual doom and gloom.
What was especially good is that they got the "right" people to do this show. Beckford, Grace Davie and Linda Woodhead know their stuff, all being top-notch academics in the field of Sociology of Religion. I was surprised at Woodhead's fairly positive approach as, in the past, her department has sometimes appeared to be very negative about the prospects for religion in Britain ... but perhaps the academic discourse has changed in recent years!
I agree that there was no mention of the rise in cathedral worship (nor of more radical forms of "Fresh Expression") and, indeed, the impression was given that "traditional" worship has had its day ... and, for the vast majority of folk, that may be true. On the other hand, the emphasis on the quiet but significant work being done all over the country in Street Pastor or Food Bank schemes was commendable (they missed out Night Shelters but, hey, you can't have everything!)
We noted that this programme was not a commission but produced by the BBC itself. My wife and I heard the Head of BBC Religion speaking a year or two back (and were able to chat to him afterwards); we were impressed by his commitment to serious religious programme which went beyond the niche of "programmes for the faithful" and looked at the interaction between religion and society. I understand that there are moves afoot to downgrade his role; if that does happen it will be a shame.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I was struck by the examples given as having so much to do with consumerism, fashion and a throw away culture. It looked to me like most of them might be irrelevant in as short a time as fifteen years because they were a kind of expression of throw away culture and appeared to have ditched much of the 'culture' of the church of the last two thousand years.
I cross-posted with this: this is a real, and very difficult, question to answer - and always has been. To what extent should the Church adapt to prevailing cultural trends in order to proclaim the Gospel; and how much danger is it in of "selling its soul" or failing to challenge cultural norms by so doing?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I would recognise that a lot of it is personal too and that I might simply be one person whose approach and what I might specifically seek in a church is simply irrelevant to the vast majority of people. Most of what was shown in the programme would leave me completely cold and disengaged and it's somewhat hard to admit that I may be old and irrelevant, or the last vestige of a dying breed. I understand that it's about transition, but what really frightens me is just how much is lost in the transition or perhaps, the things I find important are now deemed unimportant and peripheral.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, the programme raises questions about what is the "immutable esse" of the Church. Most Evangelicals would say that the forms of the Church are not of prime importance, its apostolicity residing largely in its Gospel message. This being the case, it can easily repackage itself and make its appeal more culturally relevant.
What I find interesting in this is that, although Evangelical Statements of Faith have not changed (and indeed remain highly conservative, which should delight FC's heart!) the emphasis of proclamation has changed over the years. A century ago it would have been "heavy" on sin and judgement; now it often seems to focus on self-fulfilment and Jesus offering a more "complete" life. So are these different emphases "perversions" or changes to the Gospel message, or are they sensible changes to make it more accessible in a different culture, following Paul's example of preaching in Athens?
Certainly we must ask whether traditional worship projects the image of "sacred" and "other" we fondly hope it does - to many folk it is simply "alien", "incomprehensible" and "boring".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, that worries me too.
Our very low-church vicar is busily emptying the Anglican bath-water as he clearly thinks it's some kind of impediment to mission ...
In some ways, I would agree - at least on the structural level - but at the same time I'm concerned that he may lose some 'baby' with it ...
Not that I conflate Anglicanism with 'the baby' itself as it were ...
But you know what I mean.
The consumerist thing is a tricky one, because one could argue that some of the counter-moves to religious consumerism are themselves consumerist too - to a certain extent.
I don't know what the answer is.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Gamaliel cross-posted with me.
If his Vicar is already very low, then his bath-water presumably has less distance to flow ... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Cross-posted with Baptist Trainfan ...
On one level, whatever style or tradition of worship we adopt - whether loud and lively or ceremonial and liturgical - we are all 'socialised' into it to some extent.
I didn't immediately start waving my arms around and dancing up and down when I first attended a charismatic service. Neither did I start lighting candles or kissing icons the first time I visited an Orthodox service.
People get acclimatised to these things.
What worries me about the louder and livelier end is that if we use that as an entry-level then where else is there to 'go' - where can you take people without them experiencing some kind of sense of 'disappointment' or let-down when the atmosphere becomes less high-octane?
Our vicar once shared an observation of his Dad's - a retired vicar - about the 1950s and '60s Billy Graham crusades. That there was a standard of professionalism and a polish about these meetings - as well as a certain liveliness - that wasn't replicated when people found themselves in parish churches, Gospel Halls or non-conformist chapels afterwards ...
I could see his point but observed that your average parish church or non-conformist chapel wouldn't have been able to put on George Beverley Shea and a massed choir of 2,000 voices every single week ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Gamaliel cross-posted with me.
If his Vicar is already very low, then his bath-water presumably has less distance to flow ...
He has to keep pulling the plug out as I keep turning the taps on to refill the bathtub ...
C'mon, Baptist Trainfan, get with the programme ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
More seriously, I do think there are ways in which the novel and the experimental can tie in and dove-tail with traditional elements.
I think that forms of neo-monasticism and base-community can provide an element of that.
Obviously, it wouldn't have been possible to explore all aspects and facets of contemporary UK church-life in a single programme - as Baptist Trainfan says, there were bound to be things left out - such as Night Shelters - and I'm sure much else besides.
But I thought the programme was a welcome one and made a good fist of things.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I'm going to check I've got it all recorded.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
What comes around comes around.
This story was told in the 60's after the arrival of Christians from the Caribbean, then told again in the 70's when the New Churches took off, then again in the 80's with the arrival of African Christians and then again recently with the arrival of Eastern Europeans. And most of the time it is a version of big grins and out-of-this-culture words like 'exciting' and 'amazing' and 'new'.
It seems to me that it is just a matter of time before the next wave of Christian expression appears (hopefully without too many extremes, but I am not holding my breath): meanwhile 'mainstream/traditional' Christian expressions will continue to decline.
To be fair, I live in the city and the extremes of Christianity have put me off altogether. Perhaps it's also that these new waves tend to be authoritarian.
Just the view of one who did Religious Studies at Lancaster. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I was struck by the examples given as having so much to do with consumerism, fashion and a throw away culture. It looked to me like most of them might be irrelevant in as short a time as fifteen years because they were a kind of expression of throw away culture and appeared to have ditched much of the 'culture' of the church of the last two thousand years.
I cross-posted with this: this is a real, and very difficult, question to answer - and always has been. To what extent should the Church adapt to prevailing cultural trends in order to proclaim the Gospel; and how much danger is it in of "selling its soul" or failing to challenge cultural norms by so doing?
In the dim and distant past I trained in cross-cultural mission (amongst other things) and I read "Christianity Rediscovered" by Vincent J. Donovan which proved one of the most influential books I have ever read.It addresses these issues and IMO it is applicable in any cultural setting be that Kenya or Southern England.
The touchstone for me is adapting the *how* of our communication of the Gospel in any given time or place but not moving from the principles of the message of Jesus- however I am well aware that there are many theological takes on what those principles might be.......
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I cross-posted with this: this is a real, and very difficult, question to answer - and always has been. To what extent should the Church adapt to prevailing cultural trends in order to proclaim the Gospel; and how much danger is it in of "selling its soul" or failing to challenge cultural norms by so doing?
I am not sure that this necessarily addresses problem though - a lot of the examples given seemed to centre less on Christianity adopted to consumerism, than a form of Christianity as a consumer good.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Our vicar once shared an observation of his Dad's - a retired vicar - about the 1950s and '60s Billy Graham crusades. That there was a standard of professionalism and a polish about these meetings - as well as a certain liveliness - that wasn't replicated when people found themselves in parish churches, Gospel Halls or non-conformist chapels afterwards ...
I could see his point but observed that your average parish church or non-conformist chapel wouldn't have been able to put on George Beverley Shea and a massed choir of 2,000 voices every single week ...
But I think this is important, because it still applies to events like New Wine, Spring Harvest and (maybe to a lesser extent) Greenbelt.
There are a number of dangers of these type of events:
1. People come to expect their churches to be just like their conference experience. It isn't and never will be.
2. Church leaders think that by doing the same things as they see there (same music, same subjects) they can replicate it.
3. People who have powerful spiritual experiences there (and many do) come to relate "Experience of God" with "Big Event", and so struggle to find God in ordinary.
4. People relate "Experience of God" to "tired and emotional", and so don't experience him at home.
5. The success culture that these events promote infects the church. Success become numerical growth, writing books, the latest trend, instead of seeing God work in people.
I should point out I was a long-time Spring Harvest attendee and fan (20 years). I recognise some of these in myself as much as others.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I agree with all of that Schroedinger's Cat.
I used to know an Anglican chaplain who'd done a study of 'rave culture' and found similar parallels between that and charismatic church culture - including burn-out.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I’m not a fan of Beckford but I thought that this was one of his best programmes to date.
I try to understand the sort of worship that does ‘Jesus is my boyfriend’ songs with lots of hand-waving. My style is bells and smells, choral music in the classical Anglican tradition and some silence. But there are many more extroverts than introverts. So I think I want to encourage them to do Christianity in their way – let a thousand flowers bloom - so long as they don’t oppress me.
Grace Davie and Linda Woodhead were wise – though I also note that Woodhead suggested that Anglicanism started to decline once we introduced ‘modern’ language Parish Communion. Fringers were more able to come to Choral Matins whereas our eucharists seem to be for ‘members only’.
As an anglo-catholic, I think my section of the church is to do what we do best – only do it better – more transcendence – Benediction of the MBS as a ‘fresh expression’ anybody?
There was also good stuff about radical critique of the causes of poverty – going beyond food banks which relieve the symptoms like sticking plaster but that doesn’t staunch the wound.
[ 23. March 2016, 17:07: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I’m not a fan of Beckford but I thought that this was one of his best programmes to date.
I try to understand the sort of worship that does ‘Jesus is my boyfriend’ songs with lots of hand-waving. My style is bells and smells, choral music in the classical Anglican tradition and some silence. But there are many more extroverts than introverts. So I think I want to encourage them to do Christianity in their way – let a thousand flowers bloom - so long as they don’t oppress me.
Grace Davie and Linda Woodhead were wise – though I also note that Woodhead suggested that Anglicanism started to decline once we introduced ‘modern’ language Parish Communion. Fringers were more able to come to Choral Matins whereas our eucharists seem to be for ‘members only’.
As an anglo-catholic, I think my section of the church is to do what we do best – only do it better – more transcendence – Benediction of the MBS as a ‘fresh expression’ anybody?
There was also good stuff about radical critique of the causes of poverty – going beyond food banks which relieve the symptoms like sticking plaster but that doesn’t staunch the wound.
I don't think 'Jesus is my boyfriend' songs are about extroversion but emotional - it's about an emotional response to God rather than a rational/theological one. I certainly see a thread of that dramatic and emotional response to God running through Catholicism and into Wesleyanism and then into Pentecostalism - hence charismatic Catholicism. I think it's Heavenly Anarchist who has spoken about finding it easier to blend into a charismatic church as an introvert than a small church - certainly I know plenty of charismatic introverts.
Ultimately worship nourishes the soul, or should do - and for people from backgrounds where they had to repress their emotions in some way, 'Jesus is my boyfriend' type stuff can be really healing.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I’m not a fan of Beckford but I thought that this was one of his best programmes to date.
I try to understand the sort of worship that does ‘Jesus is my boyfriend’ songs with lots of hand-waving. My style is bells and smells, choral music in the classical Anglican tradition and some silence. But there are many more extroverts than introverts. So I think I want to encourage them to do Christianity in their way – let a thousand flowers bloom - so long as they don’t oppress me.
Grace Davie and Linda Woodhead were wise – though I also note that Woodhead suggested that Anglicanism started to decline once we introduced ‘modern’ language Parish Communion. Fringers were more able to come to Choral Matins whereas our eucharists seem to be for ‘members only’.
As an anglo-catholic, I think my section of the church is to do what we do best – only do it better – more transcendence – Benediction of the MBS as a ‘fresh expression’ anybody?
There was also good stuff about radical critique of the causes of poverty – going beyond food banks which relieve the symptoms like sticking plaster but that doesn’t staunch the wound.
I don't think 'Jesus is my boyfriend' songs are about extroversion but emotional - it's about an emotional response to God rather than a rational/theological one. I certainly see a thread of that dramatic and emotional response to God running through Catholicism and into Wesleyanism and then into Pentecostalism - hence charismatic Catholicism. I think it's Heavenly Anarchist who has spoken about finding it easier to blend into a charismatic church as an introvert than a small church - certainly I know plenty of charismatic introverts.
Ultimately worship nourishes the soul, or should do - and for people from backgrounds where they had to repress their emotions in some way, 'Jesus is my boyfriend' type stuff can be really healing.
My problem with this analysis is that the expression of worship in these churches demands participation - you cannot be an onlooker without feeling very uncomfortable. So, if you stay you get sucked in and the authoritarian nature of the group demands more and more involvement (on their terms, of course). This presumably is fine if you are extrovert but not if you are of an introvert tendancy ISTM.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mark Wuntoo: My problem with this analysis is that the expression of worship in these churches demands participation - you cannot be an onlooker without feeling very uncomfortable. So, if you stay you get sucked in and the authoritarian nature of the group demands more and more involvement (on their terms, of course). This presumably is fine if you are extrovert but not if you are of an introvert tendancy ISTM.
I'm an extrovert but this is definitely not fine for me.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
LeRoc: Sure thing! And I bet you wouldn't leave your brain at the door if you went in
I didn't mean to imply that all extroverts are happy with such expressions.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mark Wuntoo: I didn't mean to imply that all extroverts are happy with such expressions.
OK. I'm in Africa a lot and this is one of the reasons I don't go much to Protestant churches there (coupled with being called on stage as a visitor and being expected to bare your whole spiritual life there).
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I've just been watching this on the iplayer.
I don't watch many TV documentaries, because they seem to imagine that people have got an incredibly short attention span, so just continually cut from one thing to the next every few seconds.
This was an unintelligible mess of different ideas. There was no real narrative. There was no real point which was to be found out, there was no journey from A to B to C. It was just some apparently randomly chosen churches (how representative are these of.. anything at all?) together with a bunch of incredibly badly cut interviews with some bishops and other boffins. At one point the ABofC was made to look like he was talking about a "dechristianised church" - which was obviously just a verbal slip when both he and the interviewer were talking about the possibility of a "dechristianised country".
Personally, I'd have liked to have spent some time hearing some more about some of these examples; the Hillsongs church, the farm church thingy, the Polish Catholic congregation. Not just cutting around, not just talking heads - some actual time to contemplate what the people are saying and what the churches are experiencing.
As it was, it just felt like a TV crew who have been given a large travel budget, a few afternoon interviews with a few people and a scatterbrained producer who says "we'll have a bit of this, and a bit of that and a bit of this.."
Don't care. Didn't think it said anything of any use with regard to the thesis of there being a "battle for Christianity".
I'll get my cocoa and settle back in front of the radio, where the pictures are better.
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
I thought it was a really interesting programme. With regard to looking at the causes of problems, rather than sticking on a plaster, I read somewhere (cant remember where) that one can only pull so many bodies out of the river before it becomes imperative to go upriver and find out who is pushing them in!
I count as an introvert on the MB scale, that is I am refreshed by being on my own, but I cannot stand choral evensong, BCP or anything with lots of twiddly bits. I find that most lively worship services are perfectly fine with someone sitting quietly and listening. Most people are so involved in their own worship that they don't really care what other people are doing.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Mark Wuntoo - there are quite a variety of churches that use that kind of worship music, not all are authoritarian or demand participation. I went to Oasis in Waterloo (Steve Chalke's place) and it was very laid back and touchy-feely - no demands on participation or authoritarianess.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
I found it an interesting watch. Having been living outside the UK for nearly 10 years and planning on returning to live there this summer I thought it was (I hope) a catch up of at least of some of the things happening in the UK church scene. Bound to be limited and incomplete in a programme that is only an hour long of course!
Also was happy to see featured on it a former curate of a church we went to. Nice to see a little of what he is involved in now. And I thought I recognised one of the churches that appeared without being named and checking online later confirmed it is the local parish church in the place we are going back to live in the summer!
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Ok, I have watched it and I am unimpressed. I would agree that there was no real narrative through it - it was a series of stories with no real point or context.
The problem with a number of the churches is that they are aimed at a younger audience. While one person did say they need to readdress how to reach young people in 40 years time, the problem is as much whether the young people they are catering for NOW will continue to express a faith when they have moved out of that culture.
The other challenge, I think, is that so much of the numerical stability of the churches seems to be from immigrants. I have nothing against immigrants, but I wonder if they will become ghetto churches, catering for particular groups (not unlike the afro-carribean churches have often become).
Is there a battle for Christianity? IMO, no more than ever. It is just rather more public today. Is the church dying? Absolutely, in its current form. There is nothing in this program that convinces me otherwise, or that any of these projects offers a future. What is more, some of them look very like personality-led churches, and I am not convinced that they will the generation change (when the leader moves on).
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The extent to which people are left alone to participate or not as they see fit in lively, charismatic churches tends to vary.
Some places are quite laid-back, others quite intrusive.
The mileage varies. I don't object to lively worship provided it doesn't veer into manipulative territory - but given the choice these days, I'd go for choral evensong or something liturgical. The worship-song medley style no longer 'does' it for me, I'm afraid - but as long as it isn't hurting anyone ...
I do wonder, though, how much of 'the whole counsel of God' people get these days - what with lectionaries and the calender ignored in many places and expository preaching in many evangelical circles replaced with ra-ra-rah pep talks.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The programme was bitty, but not as incoherent as some have claimed, I don't think - there were recaps, introductions ... but the editing was grim - among the worst I've seen.
I do wonder how sustainable some of these groups are but then, how sustainable are any forms of church these days.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
Baptist Trainfan wrote
quote:
To what extent should the Church adapt to prevailing cultural trends in order to proclaim the Gospel; and how much danger is it in of "selling its soul" or failing to challenge cultural norms by so doing?
I'm with Mrs Beaky on this, and Donovan's book is a classic for cross cultural mission. Jesus lived in a cultural context and his Gospel has always been commmunicated in cultural contexts. The difficulties come when one context becomes the default standard.
When today's 'Western' throwaway consumerism is the context, then perhaps some of the communications will inevitably reflect that. So the challenge is to present the cutting edge of the gospel of Jesus in a suitable way that reflects its unchanging and lasting nature.
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The programme was bitty, but not as incoherent as some have claimed, I don't think - there were recaps, introductions ... but the editing was grim - among the worst I've seen.
I normally don't 'do' TV for exactly these reasons. I watched this one because I saw it referenced elsewhere - and tbh I don't think it was particularly bad as such things go. Perhaps I have a very low expectation though, most documentaries are bitty by their very nature.
quote:
I do wonder how sustainable some of these groups are but then, how sustainable are any forms of church these days.
If they dont' have both kids and people over the age of 30/40/50/whatever, probably not very.
However, I wonder if we are a little prone to overexaggerate the lifetimes of past movements. What we see - are by their very nature - the survivors. Yes, things are more ephemeral now, but they were always more ephemeral than we might think if all we consider are institutions over a hundred years old.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
However, I wonder if we are a little prone to overexaggerate the lifetimes of past movements. What we see - are by their very nature - the survivors. Yes, things are more ephemeral now, but they were always more ephemeral than we might think if all we consider are institutions over a hundred years old.
The problem is, to my mind, that these ephemeral movements seem to be the only places that the church is growing. Which means that when a number of them fail, it will have a major impact on the church as a whole.
If, as the program is suggesting (and I suspect to be true) these groups are the only ones showing growth, they are skewing the figures. What will happen at HTB, for example, if there isn't another Nicky Gumbel to take over?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
If, as the program is suggesting (and I suspect to be true) these groups are the only ones showing growth, they are skewing the figures. What will happen at HTB, for example, if there isn't another Nicky Gumbel to take over?
A lot of their church plants seem to do reasonably well, I don't see why HTB couldn't continue to self-perpetuate itself (at the very least) post Gumbel.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And Gumbel was post-Sandy Millar
I believe Gumbel and Millar were in it together, then Millar went. Not quite the same, ISTM, as the death of a single charismatic leader - after which organisations tend to diminish.
Not at all sure about HTB self-perpetuating. It just doesn't happen like that in so many cases. Thus 'what comes around, comes around'.
And there is always 'the circulation of the saints' as two eminent sociologists described trends many years ago. (Leaving aside the waves of immigration.)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And Gumbel was post-Sandy Millar
They were together, and made it what it is between them. Once they have both gone, someone needs to replace them.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And Gumbel was post-Sandy Millar
They were together, and made it what it is between them. Once they have both gone, someone needs to replace them.
But again, the various church plants they have engaged in show that they have at least some aptitude at growing leaders within the group. So I don't think you are looking at a Westminster Chapel like scenario.
They'll survive, they appeal to a particular demographic - of the increasingly well healed.
They may no longer have the advantage of a well known figurehead, but other large evangelical churches in London have survived the same thing.
There be some dispersion of the wider movement, but as a church in itself HTB is reasonably solid.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'd agree with Chris. Equally, there's more to charismatic evangelicalism in the UK than HTB.
FWIW, I suspect though, that many of today's HTB types will be less HTB-ish in five or 10 years time
I doubt if their demographic will change a great deal though.
My guess would be that many of today's charismatics will gradually tone things down over time - with some moving away from revivalism towards principled forms of social action - rather as the Quakers did. Others, though, will head off into charismatic hyper-drive, some even losing all semblance of rooted and grounded traditional Christianity. The language will remain Christian, but it'll be a thin patina on top of a somewhat fey, super-spiritualised self-help philosophy.
Still others will succeedvin marrying innovation with traditional and more incarnational Christian concerns. The future will be mixed - just as the past has been.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
The programme showed how diverse the Church is, how we are reaching out to different age groups and cultures as well as continuing to cater for existing congregations. It did seem to indicate that the way forward was pop religion, but in the same way that pop music may evolve and mature, so may pop religion. And classical never went away.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Raptor Eye: in the same way that pop music may evolve and mature
Pop music may not be a good example (I hope you're not calling present-day pop music mature?)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Raptor Eye: in the same way that pop music may evolve and mature
Pop music may not be a good example (I hope you're not calling present-day pop music mature?)
It may mature and evolve, if immature now, as might we.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
I enjoyed it, and if I didn't have a new baby and Holy Week I would have blogged on it.
There was very little on new growth in sacramental expressions of church, or on what anchors the ecstatic in the mundane (that would be the sacramental again).
Ultimately a lot of the 'new' worship shown was a natural development of the post-toronto 'youth' worship movement. I appreciate it and value it, but out of it has come repeated movements to re-engage with the Tradition (or to be more provocative the faith of the early church).
A coming together of the Charismatic and the Catholic seems natural to me, and certainly works in the context I am in. It also strikes me as a mode achievable ideal than Hillsongs for the local church.
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Edward Green--
Congrats on the new baby, and blessings! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yayyy! Congratulations on the new baby, Edward. I hope Mrs Green and the infant are doing well.
Keep drawing on the Tradition ... and on the charismatic.
I know I'm probably seen as a post-charismatic here aboard Ship, but I'm probably still as charismatic as I've been ... it's just that I see these things more in terms of the numinous in the mundane - and God being everywhere and filling all things ... rather than the exercise of particular gifts and practices ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm in Africa a lot and this is one of the reasons I don't go much to Protestant churches there (coupled with being called on stage as a visitor and being expected to bare your whole spiritual life there).
There is a classic trick of asking visitors to raise their hands. (Can't be any harm in that one thinks). Then once hands are in the air for all to see they are asked to stand up. (OK, not too bad).
Then once standing they are invited to the front to greet the church and say a ward or to.
Response range from a wave, "Praise the Lord"-type-of-greeting and a swift return to the seat through to suspending proceedings for a 15-minute mini-sermon.
Introversion and extroversion seem to mean different things in different cultures.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
An interesting programme, It is interesting to me that although I have been out of the church 'scene' for 10 or 15 years this documentary showed that not a lot has changed, the same old debates, the same 'trendy' styles, even the same names and faces involved!
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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