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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Battle for Christianity
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Digging to find references for something else, I found this (Guardian) article from 2006 by Michael Hampson, discussing his book Last Rites: the End of the Church of England.
His take is that the Church of England has moved from supporting the marginalised and weak (HIV, miners) in the 1980s to being more reactionary than any time since the Civil War. He concluded that:
quote:
This reversal is a tragedy of enormous proportions. A 400-year-old liberal Anglican tradition has been destroyed in 20 years by an entirely novel, entirely alien, evangelical fundamentalism. It is truly last rites for the Church of England ...
Apologies: this is the post I was referring to in my earlier post. Faith in the City was the report which galvanised a lot of the work done in the 1980s to support the poor and marginalised.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
For example, the Alpha Course is doing a huge amount of subtle damage. It convinces people that they know the only authentic form of Christianity, meaning that, if they find that it no longer nourishes them, they reject Christianity entirely rather than exploring other expressions of it.
I suppose you could say this about any course or movement that becomes popular. People are drawn to its popularity, but if it doesn't suit them they don't necessarily look for less obvious alternatives. Why would they, when they only got involved with or paid attention to something because it was fashionable?
The only answer in this particular case is for the supposedly more sensible, moderate Christian groups, to get better at marketing their sensible, moderate agenda. They shouldn't always be in the position of letting evangelicals do the running, and then complaining that other Christians can't be heard. That's not a good look.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That's not a good look.
Neither is colluding with a blatantly unchristian dominant culture of marketing and spin, to the point where those who don't engage in it are rendered invisible.
This is rather my point. Playing by those rules would involve a complete loss of integrity. Better the desert than the fowl of Egypt.
[ 16. April 2016, 14:52: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So Edward Green, we certainly shouldn't frighten the children with the truth, and we should go further and lie to them? We should tell them that God DOES intervene in the world, that the bible is inerrant in its plain meaning and that magic happens?
God does intervene in the world.
Oh? Can you supply one fact to substantiate that claim?
Yup. The resurrection of Jesus. And we've been over all the evidence for that so don't bother asking me to repeat it all ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It's not a fact. I can't not believe it. Despite the idea of unnecessary complexity above matter being utterly absurd. It's no fact. And I'm glad you concur that there are NO others. It is a claim. The ONLY one that matters. All claims merely predicated upon it, in name only, are false. ALL.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
It's equally possible that things like the Alpha course will keep alive liberal Christianity as people convert into evangelical Christianity and then deepen and mature (or backslide depending upon perspective) into a more liberal form of Christianity.
It's hard for liberal Christianity to gain converts from the non-churched as it is doesn't have a clear message; and is often intellectually complex to the point of being incomprehensible.
Posts: 121 | Registered: Apr 2014
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
It's equally possible that things like the Alpha course will keep alive liberal Christianity as people convert into evangelical Christianity and then deepen and mature (or backslide depending upon perspective) into a more liberal form of Christianity.
It's hard for liberal Christianity to gain converts from the non-churched as it is doesn't have a clear message; and is often intellectually complex to the point of being incomprehensible.
WRT your first point, that's kind of how the relationship between liberal and evangelical Christianity has always worked. My fear, for which I think there is evidence, that there are features of HTB-related phenomena which stop this from happening.
To my mind, the sacraments are the royal road through the double bind you describe. The further layer to that is the nole me tangere (don't touch me) culture we live in, and with which I see phenomena such as Alpha as deliberately colluding.
There are always elements of popular culture with which the church can creatively cooperate, and those which we must resist. To my mind, this is top of the latter list, and I find the collusion very hard to take.
I think I might need to explain what I mean, because some dismiss evangelical worship and other expressions as excessively touchy-feely. My objection is not the touchy-feeliness, it's the extent to which this is manufactured, induced, artificial and transient. That's how I experience this phenomenon. I fear it is making the body of Christ sick.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
There is much I dislike in a lot of Evangelicalism. But (a) I think you are tarring all its many strands with the same brush and (b) it's not all bad - indeed there are good, honest, intelligent and socially aware folk within it.
[ 16. April 2016, 15:44: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That's not a good look.
Neither is colluding with a blatantly unchristian dominant culture of marketing and spin, to the point where those who don't engage in it are rendered invisible.
This is rather my point. Playing by those rules would involve a complete loss of integrity. Better the desert than the fowl of Egypt.
But surely it's the duty of every Christian to promote what they believe to be the correct doctrines? If your doctrines are better than theirs then it's your job to espouse them. If you refuse to do that, what's the point in complaining?
David didn't complain about being smaller and weaker than Goliath. He just got on with what he had to do.
I agree with Green Mario that if nothing else, evangelistic programmes such as Alpha at least generate material for moderates to work with further down the line. There are many ex-/post-/struggling evangelicals on the Ship. They're moved higher up the candle, and to the left theologically, but it was the dynamic engagement of evangelistic evangelicalism that brought them into the Christian faith, or kept them there if they were already raised in it. It seems that moderate Christianity needs evangelicalism to 'process' believers in this direction; and the need is only going to increase, as moderate churches find themselves in greater and greater difficulty.
Yes, evangelicals often leave the faith. But that's utterly normal in moderate church circles, if we're honest. It's just less dramatic, less noteworthy when someone leaves a MOTR church.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
There is much I dislike in a lot of Evangelicalism. But (a) I think you are tarring all its many strands with the same brush and (b) it's not all bad - indeed there are good, honest, intelligent and socially aware folk within it.
Indeed.
But there are so many people that seem to want to believe it's universal panacea, and my intention is to point out that it causes as many ills as it cures.
Not something in which it is unique, but neither something to which it is immune.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
OK, I started this one with that quotation, which I do have a lot of sympathy with as another liberal. There are other courses available, Emmaus is one.
The local MOTR CofE church suggested that Emmaus (pdf) would be a good course to offer, rather than offering Alpha, which was offered by the local Elim church. The very vocal tiny evangelical group* within that church have taken over the teaching and youth work then ran an "Emmaus" course that had been adapted and included a lot of stuff that I could only find on the Kingdom Faith site.
I was part of a group, together with the clergy team, that tried offering alternative views at some of the courses - I was asked to go along to lob in more orthodox Christianity and quoted different verses of the Bible regularly. I took alternative Bibles along to Bible studies because I like discussing how different translations tackle the verses and got laughed out of the course with "Where did you get that Bible?" The proper Bible I should have brought along was the NIV. And the Bible class wasn't about discussion it was all about teaching the right way to think.
We also offered other things, but when alternatives are being run down by that same vocal group as "not being sound" it's fairly dispiriting, although we did get a whole series of things going. But I burnt out.
* This group attends Kingdom Faith Camp to "feed their faith" - about 10% of the church. They are very vocal and active in leading prayer and teaching, not the boring stuff of just keeping the church going. They also drag all children out to their teaching instead of allowing them to stay in church to hear the sermon and remain in the choir or serving as an acolyte.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I agree with Baptist Trainfan, but equally, I think there is something rotten in the state of evangelicalism ...
I don't think all is lost, but I long since came to the conclusion that in order to maintain some form of spiritual health, bog-standard evangelicalism needs to draw from a wider frame of reference.
Full-on card-carrying evangelicals like the USA's Mark Noll would happily acknowledge as much - and have written books to that effect.
I'm not sure how substantial Thunderbunk's alarmism is when it comes to HTB, for instance. I would submit that certain sections of the New Wine orbit are far 'worse' than HTB in terms of disrespect for the wider Anglican tradition.
I recently - and hearten-ingly - heard from a very liberal vicar how an uber-High friend of his had been mightily impressed by the way HTB conducted a church-plant on his patch, giving new respect and consideration for the particular tradition his parish represented. They had effectively revitalised things and brought young people and families back in, whilst letting him getting on with his bells and smells without let or hindrance.
I can't imagine some of the New Wine-y types being quite so accommodating.
Now, one might dismiss this as cynical pragmatism on the part of Nicky Gumbel et al - but I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.
There's a lot I don't like about the Alpha/HTB side of things and about New Wine and the trendy-wendy end of Anglican charismatic evangelicalism. However, they do at least have some awareness and sensitivity towards some of the broader aspects of Anglicanism.
How long that will continue, I have no idea.
I don't think that the entire evangelical/charismatic scene is a busted flush.
That said, I have found over the years that burnt-out or disillusioned charismatics tend to drop out of organised church-life entirely rather than moving over to more liberal positions/groupings.
This is partly due to exhaustion, I think, but also partly to them imbibing a line that high-octane, full-on lively Christianity is the only 'authentic' kind that there is ... and that everywhere else is 'dead' or not worth bothering with.
I suspect that's the tendency Thunderbunk is railing against. I think there's been an element of that, but by the same token I think that's changing.
I can cite an for instance where the incredibly bright and highly precocious daughter of some friends in a 'new church' setting decided of her own volition that she wanted to go to their decidedly traditional and somewhat 'High' Anglican parish instead and to get confirmed and become one of the altar servers and so on.
Not only her parents, but the rest of the congregation accepted this with equanimity and were fully and incredibly supportive - in a way they would not have been 10 or 20 years previously. They attended her confirmation service, gave her cards and good wishes and so on.
I was encouraged by that.
One swallow doesn't make a summer but I do think there's been a 'thaw' in attitudes in many quarters.
Ok, you'll still hear snarky comments from evangelical Anglicans about liberals or High Church people - but the same thing happens in the other direction too. No 'wing' of the CofE is entirely free of snarky attitudes towards the others - and as Baptist Trainfan and ExclamationMark have shared here too, they can sometimes be sniffy and arsey with non-conformists.
These things cut both ways.
All that said, I do concur with Thunderbunk that the more sacramental aspects of Anglicanism are 'at risk' from some elements within the evangelical and charismatic constituency - as these things are some kind of bolt-on or added extra.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But surely it's the duty of every Christian to promote what they believe to be the correct doctrines? If your doctrines are better than theirs then it's your job to espouse them. If you refuse to do that, what's the point in complaining?
David didn't complain about being smaller and weaker than Goliath. He just got on with what he had to do.
Angels and ministers of grace defend us. It is our duty to live our faith, not to promote our doctrines. We are not running an advertising agency, we are being members of the living body of Christ.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry ... 'as IF these things are a bolt-on or added extra ...'
The same applies to the Calendar too, of course. I've heard our local evangelical vicar talk as if the only 'point' of Easter is to have an occasion - that remains, as yet, relatively less commercialised than Christmas - on which to invite people to church.
Ok, I don't have an issue with people inviting friends and neighbours to church at Easter, but that's not ALL it's about, surely?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
ThunderBunk ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Curiosity killed ...
God is in the desert.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But surely it's the duty of every Christian to promote what they believe to be the correct doctrines? If your doctrines are better than theirs then it's your job to espouse them. If you refuse to do that, what's the point in complaining?
David didn't complain about being smaller and weaker than Goliath. He just got on with what he had to do.
Angels and ministers of grace defend us. It is our duty to live our faith, not to promote our doctrines. We are not running an advertising agency, we are being members of the living body of Christ.
Well, if others find themselves just as convinced that the Bible teaches them to promote their doctrines then you're likely to be the ones that lose out. But so be it.
Now, when I say 'you' I mean me as well, because I'm certainly from a moderate, sensible Christian tradition. It started off as a very evangelistic movement, but developed otherwise. And now it's in danger of disappearing entirely in the UK, and few can pretend otherwise. But perhaps its precipitous decline is just a sign of its purity? I'm talking about Methodism.
Fortunately for the CofE, its sensible moderates benefit from having more churches, more clergy and best of all, more money. You may mock capitalism, but a denomination with money can keep poorly attended but theologically impeccable churches open. That's one reason why I worship with the CofE these days: you lot complain about evangelicals, but the 'normal' churches are still plentiful, chugging along, doing what they do. You have less to complain about than you think.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
The following comes with some hesitation, since this is a discussion forum and not a blog, but I think it's useful for understanding some of the crude shorthands I've been using, and other signs of ignorance and oversensitivity which you may be detecting.
I am still in the process of emerging into the wider church after some 13 years spent in an anglo-catholic church which was still trying to behave like it was 1998 or thereabouts. That church decided to move in a direction I could not support, so I had to leave. I am now discovering the realities between the shadows I had previously glimpsed at the cave-mouth. This process is far from complete, and some of the shadows are still very deep and rather unilluminated.
The church I am now seeing more closely is one I barely recognise, significant parts of which I find disturbing. This process, coupled with an increased awareness that the previous berth was in certain respects a Procrustean bed, means that my perceptions are partial and extreme. I also moved diocese immediately before settling on my previous church, meaning that my previous experience of the wider church is even more distant.
This means, I think, that I am a peculiar witness from the point of view of this discussion, in that my perception of the wider church is more purely formed by the status quo ante, rather than the adjustments that have occurred in response to the increasing power of evangelicalism. I am therefore seeing the latter in rather heightened relief.
On the other hand, living round the corner from a church which has been taken over by our local HTB outfit and turned into something which I barely recognise and which seems to have little to do with anything other than their whim, I have this isolated, possibly untypical, strand of current experience to draw on.
Before I leave this process of personal disclosure, I will also add that I find the atrophy and lack of energy in much of the liberal catholic movement in the church utterly horrifying, though I am currently not at all clear if and how I can help do anything about this. I still believe that my way of living my faith has the potential to be attractive to others, and want to find ways of communicating it. But this can't be done in complete isolation, and requires a huge amount of energy if it is not to be done in empty, repugnant slogans.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That's one reason why I worship with the CofE these days: you lot complain about evangelicals, but the 'normal' churches are still plentiful, chugging along, doing what they do. You have less to complain about than you think.
You may think that but ... that attitude rings incredibly hollow to someone driven out of their local church, which is where I am, and from what Thunderbunk has been posting elsewhere, he's encountering evangelicals in the CofE in a similar way to the way I have.
Yes, I could commute to attend other churches. London is in reach, but three hours commuting every working day doesn't particularly enamour me to commuting another three hours at the weekend.
eta - in response to a cross post with Thunderbunk
[ 16. April 2016, 16:44: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
If you live in an area with an insufficient choice of churches it must be a problem.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thing is, there's nothing more complicated going on here other than different perspectives gleaned from different vantage points or ecclesial experiences.
From SvitlanaV2's perspective, then disgruntlement with evangelicals must seem like an expensive luxury - after all, she's seen MoTR Methodist churches close left, right and centre.
But from the backgrounds and experiences that CK and Thunderbunk represent, SvitlanaV2's defence of evangelicalism must ring hollow to say the least - particularly when she isn't an evangelical herself ...
I'm not saying that Baptist Trainfan or myself are in a 'better' position to form a judgement having come from more evangelical backgrounds and 'broadened out' as it were - but I suspect if we all gathered our individual perspectives together there'd be overlaps as well as gaps and divergence.
Thunderbunk's sharp relief might then melt into chiaroscuro ...
FWIW, I think that evangelicalism per se is undergoing the same upheavals and tensions - over Dead Horse issues and much else besides - as anyone else. They may have ths money and the muscle but they don't always have the moral high-ground.
In my more full-on evangelical days I'd have said that liberal Christianity was like a mule - it could not reproduce itself and that it could only draw parasitically from more conservative traditions.
Now, I'd suggest that most forms of Chritianity in the Western world tend to draw to a greater or lesser extent from one another. The idea that evangelicals draw in unchurched people from the street who later go in a more liberal direction and bolster/prop-up more MoTR congregations is a naive and outmoded one.
It's not what happens anymore, at least not among what might be called white, indigeneous populations.
Aside from BME and other minority groups, evangelical growth is slowing down - and certainly among students -if university chaplains I know are to be believed - the transition from ardent evangelicalism to dropping out entirely - or moving to more measured or moderate forms of faith - is happening in a more accelerated way than in the past.
Certainly, some of them seem to see their role as 'being there' for when the born-again bubble bursts in the students' final year.
I agree with SvitlanaV2 that erosion happens more silently in MoTR settings, but there's more of a revolving-door in many apparently successful evangelical settings than many people realise.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
Skipping over evidence for the resurrection (which I am sure has been discussed before) and keeping on track.
Alpha has had some issues. But having used the course recently in an inclusive sacramental parish I found the video material deeply affirming of catholic spirituality. Yes in places the presentation is simplistic, but the the basic message is sound.
I have have had good and bad experiences of working with christians of different traditions. Locally I feel my faith is recognised and affirmed by those of an evangelical and charismatic expression. The openness I have met towards the sacramental and liturgical has been humbling.
This hasn't always been my experience. But it is happening.
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And the openness toward the truth?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Skipping over evidence for the resurrection (which I am sure has been discussed before) and keeping on track.
Alpha has had some issues. But having used the course recently in an inclusive sacramental parish I found the video material deeply affirming of catholic spirituality. Yes in places the presentation is simplistic, but the the basic message is sound.
I have have had good and bad experiences of working with christians of different traditions. Locally I feel my faith is recognised and affirmed by those of an evangelical and charismatic expression. The openness I have met towards the sacramental and liturgical has been humbling.
This hasn't always been my experience. But it is happening.
I'm very pleased that you have had positive experiences in working with the Christians around you.
However, I don't think that entirely negates my point, as I am coming to discover it to be (I find myself reminded of a recent hell thread, in which it was held to be scandalous for people to find out what they mean only by hearing themselves speak. If it is, I'm sorry, but that is what I find myself doing).
My point is that there appears to be something in current culture, within the church and outside, which is deeply inimical to the kind of thing I would like to share - a relational, subtle faith that is indeed nourished by the sacraments and by the bible, understood and digested in its textual and other context. This is my alternative to the "terms and conditions Christianity" which to me is the real problem. That, of course, is not only evangelical in flavour, though I think this is the dominant flavour at the moment. (I owe the phrase to Rowan Williams, the last time I heard him speak, after the Julian lecture in 2014).
Fundamentally, I feel that the church militant will lose a lot if the gentle, daring exploration of people like H A Williams, John A T Robinson, Jim Cotter and others is allowed to pass from its lived experience. Our way of doing this now will change, but I think that process of exploring at the soft, delicate edges of faith and our understanding of God rather than speaking brashly from the centre of accreted certainty is vital to the health of Christianity, and to its ability to be heard by people whose ear is bruised by certainty. There is also the issue of finding a way of speaking to such people that they will hear, and I don't pretend to have that sorted - I've tried one way, which partially worked and partially failed - but I don't think that failure was entirely down to deficiencies in the enterprise itself. There was, and is, something in the air which poisoned it.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Amen.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
ThunderBunk
You speak as if two or more ways of being Christian can't exist in the same society. I'm not sure why this should be the case. Why should evangelical environments prevent the 'daring, gentle exploration' from taking place in non-evangelical environments?
The majority of British congregations probably aren't evangelical anyway (although this isn't much consolation if you live in a small community that's oversupplied with them and not much else. Probably in the South East.)
Do Gamaliel's comments encourage you? What he says is that indigenous British evangelicalism (CofE or otherwise) is faltering. It won't be an enemy or a distraction for much longer. It's hard edges are wearing off in some places, and in others, it's just not attracting or keeping hold of the same numbers of people.
IMO, whether or not the evangelicals are attracting attention won't matter much in a society where the majority of committed believers may soon be Muslim, not Christian (the Anglicans are apparently already outnumbered). In parts of the South East, moderate indigenous Christians may continue to battle against their strict evangelical adversaries, but will anyone else really care?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Liberals have to swim in conservative shoals. It gets VERY wearing. And worse. Suffocating. Impossible to have ANY conversation.
[ 17. April 2016, 12:02: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Martin60: Liberals have to swim in conservative shoals.
I prefer to surf.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
A solitary vice.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Liberals have to swim in conservative shoals.
I understand that definitions of 'liberal' and 'conservative' can be quite broad, but IME MOTR/liberal(-catholic)/moderate churches aren't dominated by theological conservatism (although there's quite a lot of conservatism in terms of church culture.)
The idea that a liberal would choose to be in a theologically conservative church and then have to complain about it strikes me as most unfortunate and unnecessary - but then again, I live in a large city, where it's quite easy to avoid theologically conservative churches. Many of you obviously live in smaller towns where there's not much choice.
(I also have the suspicion that some of you attend conservative churches largely because that's where the 'life' is. That's understandable, but it would be surely be more honorable and more psychologically satisfying for you to join a struggling but theologically moderate church and help to build it up.)
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
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SvitlanaV2, you are making some very sweeping assumptions here. I have lived:
- where I am now, a market town with more churches than anywhere I've been before other than London as a student: a dying Methodist church now working with the URC, a small Elim Pentecostal church that doesn't have its own building any more, a Friends Meeting House, Church of England and RC churches. There was a Brethren Church, but that's now folded
- Another small rural town where the choice was the local CofE, a Methodist Church with a regular congregation of 6 and the local Congregational Church which was falling to pieces following and scandal and before the amalganation into the URC.
- Another market town with a local CofE church full stop.
- a village with a CofE church which was part of a team with 6 other churches
- another village with a CofE church and a non-conformist chapel that closed while I lived there.
I was also a student in London where the student union church was HTB. There were other churches locally but we were never told of them (which is very similar to my daughter's experience at her undergraduate university). I took one look at HTB and stopped attending church for years.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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SvitlanaV2
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I've made my assumptions based on the complaints about evangelical churches. But I now find that there were plenty of other churches you might have attended instead. So the question is, why didn't you attend those?
Evangelicalism would die a death if people chose to support their local Methodist/URC/MOTR CofE churches instead. But they won't do that, so the 'moderate' churches struggle and close, while Christians such as yourself (no disrespect meant) just grumble about evangelicalism. As someone who tried to keep a Methodist church going, and failed, that upsets me.
And why does someone have to be 'told' about a church? Can't you find something suitable for yourself?
[ 17. April 2016, 13:07: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Curiosity killed ...
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My question is why the evangelical group don't support the local Elim Pentecostal church, which is far more in tune with their beliefs, rather than try to change the MOTR CofE church to fit in with them? But I know the answer to that one, because I've been told, it's because they "fish in a bigger pool".
One of the leading lights of this group sent her children to the Elim Pentecostal church as "more fun", while continuing to run the Sunday school at the CofE church. Others, who run the youth group during the Sunday Service, find the services so dull that they have chosen to stay out even when they don't have any takers for the youth group.
Personally I got a lot from those services, liturgical standard Common Worship services, before they were changed to add "better hymns", (otherwise known here as Jesus as my boyfriend) and interactive talks rather than sermons with some material to think about. With screens set up to hide the chancel, high altar and rood screen to project onto, because those who don't like the architecture and visual aids in the building would prefer to hide them and present their own visual aids. I know I'm not the only person who has gone because the services have changed.
The Methodist/URC minister has been creationist for the last few years and the services are all that I struggle with in the way the MOTR CofE services have gone - no liturgy, no rhythm of the church year, no time for silence, no pauses to pray quietly, instructions on how to think in the preamble to the readings and the way the prayers are structured.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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SvitlanaV2
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Your scenario is obviously a very different one from mine.
Most Methodist and URC ministers are unlikely to be literal creationists, or at least not publicly. They wouldn't get much support from the wider denomination.
Maybe there are clusters in these things. Methodism doesn't work well if only one minister in a circuit has prominently evangelical views, so perhaps all the evangelical ones end up in the same circuits. Or you might get an anomaly in which one minister has oversight of only one congregation, rather than a bunch of them. If this one congregation approves, the minister can presumably get away with promoting a more pronounced evangelical presence.
Regarding the evo/CofE 'fish in a bigger pool' thing, that must be regional as well. In areas where the CofE is fairly weak and doesn't have strong growth potential, there can't be much of an advantage in an evangelical 'takeover'.
What I can't understand, I suppose, is how a takeover can happen in a CofE congregation if the members don't want it. This would be very difficult to do in a Methodist church because the worship there is usually led by the laity.
As for Sunday Schools, the problem is that MOTR churches tend to have poor facilities for children's work, and far too few available teachers. In my old Methodist church, the minister and his wife, who weren't even evangelicals, eventually sent their kids to an evangelical church down the road! I don't know how long that 'experiment' lasted, though.
Going back to the final point I made in my previous post, apart from being sent to a particular Methodist church as a girl, my churchgoing options have mostly been chosen by myself. When I went to uni I wasn't introduced to or urged into any particular church, and wasn't channelled into CU as some sort of guiding light for all things Christian. I made my own choices, and similarly when I lived alone as a young adult.
Perhaps young people from uniformly evangelical backgrounds feel more trammelled down particular avenues, and expect to be told what to do. When the advice fails, they feel they have to give up on church entirely, because they have no experience of making their own choices.
[ 17. April 2016, 14:14: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gamaliel
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I think there are several things going on here, and regional and rural/suburban/rural issues come into play too.
Where to start ...?
Evangelical take-overs do happen in Anglican churches - generally by making those uncomfortable with it feel so uncomfortable that they leave.
Methodism varies a great deal - as you're well aware. Hereabouts, there are plenty of evangelical Methodists and even some very Creationist ones - but the clergy tend to be moderately evangelical/liberal.
In some rural areas it's the CofE and not much else.
As for evangelical kids at university and thinking for oneself ... it might sound strange to non-evangelicals, but if it's been drummed into you that the only 'real' Christians are evangelical ones then if you fall out with church or have a crisis of faith then the default option for many people from an evangelical background isn't to climb the candle, go liberal, mystic or whatever else, but to drop out of church entirely.
That said, unlike some parts of the USA, there do tend to be alternatives to an evangelical paradigm - but it can be difficult for people who have been hurt by evangelicalism in some way to find alternatives they can trust.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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ThunderBunk
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I think it may be time to broaden this out a bit - though not, sadly, in a happy way.
Thinking about all of my experience over the last couple of years, I'm not, currently, sure that any wing of the church is serving the whole body well. Some by being so weak and shell-shocked that they are not able to do much. Others by being so obsessed with talking to themselves and asserting their distinctiveness that they have no time for looking to serve the wider body of the church or, indeed, God's creation. Others are so certain of their own rectitude that they shun contact with all that is not them.
Many by disappearing into various of these cul-de-sacs at different times, sequentially or simultaneously.
I have a feeling that we are nearing a point where our understanding of what the church is and how to be part of it needs to fall into the earth and die, before a re-invigorated church can start to grow. Maybe there are some shoots now; may be it is a process which carries on all the time and comes to prominence periodically. If that's the case, I think it's about to come front and centre.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Martin60
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It is the duty of liberals to stay in their local conservative shoal. To subvert it. That is our calling. It conquered Rome.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
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I'm not sure anyone - Thunderbunk or whoever else - should be encouraged by my comments on evangelicalism - if anything, Edward Green's comments are more so.
I don't want evangelicals to lose their commitment to the Gospel or to become the same as everyone else - but I would like to see a move away from some of the commercialism, spin and overly simplistic platitudes that bedevil the movement.
Every tradition has its strengths and weaknesses.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Curiosity killed ...
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I've got other stories of evangelical take overs, two different ends of the country:
- an area bishop deliberately placing evangelical clergy in churches, against the ethos of those churches, with nationally reported dire consequences in one case;
- another diocese, another bishop putting in an evangelical curate into the only Anglo-Catholic church in the city/diocese, a pale shadow compared to ASMS or others, but all things are comparative, and insisting on evangelical speakers to preach the sermon regularly. Each time the congregation shrank further and the RC church gained a few more.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Green Mario
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Martin60 - did Liberal Christians conquer Rome?
There has been talk about evangelical takeovers of churches in the Anglican Church.
Does this happen with all elements of the Anglican church - are parishes ever taken over by liberal or progressive elements (either lay or clergy) or does this only ever go in one direction? If it only ever goes in one direction why are there churches in the Anglican church that are still not evangelical (struggling to understand how this works....)? what is the mechanism for progressive or AC churches becoming that way or staying that way?
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Martin60
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Er, was Jesus a liberal compared with His culture? Or any until the C19th? And they're mixed since. Patchy. A timeless liberal? Inclusive? Empowering? Was He racist? Sectarian? Sexist? Homophobic? Disablist? Nationalistic? Violent?
Neither were his followers for three centuries.
Up against fascist theocracies.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Green Mario
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That's a different dichotomy than the one I thought was being discussed.
I thought we were discussing the evangelical - liberal continuum which is more a continuum in a view about the degree to which scripture is inspired by God and authoritative.
To the extent that evangelical is at the opposite end of a continuum to liberal it isn't because it is racist, violent, sexist or a nationalist world-view.
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Green Mario
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Rome was very liberal and inclusive when it came to its theology and gods although perhaps fascist and authoritarian in other ways.
It was fine to add new gods to the pantheon; what wasn't fine was the exclusive claims of the Christian God to be the only true God, that Jesus was the only true Lord.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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As Caesar was.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Truman White
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Just saw this on iPlayer. Good to see a positive presentation of the Christian Faith affirming the contributions of all spectrums of the church. Good to be reminded that the church will only ever thrive if it's true to its heritage as a missional movement. Whether you count yourself liberal or conservative, all can respond to the repeated refrain from the prog "Get out there!"
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Martin60
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# 368
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By this do you mean that?
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Love wins
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Gamaliel
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I agree with being missional, but the programme didn't show 'all spectrums of the Church' - it concentrated mainly on the charismatic side of things.
Which is fine -providing we don't take that to be 'all spectrums of thd Church.'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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The programme's title probably wouldn't sit very well with a group of liberal catholic Anglicans doing messy church, for example. Christians like that don't really talk in terms of 'battles', IME.
I think ThunderBunk may well be right in suggesting that the (indigenous) British Church may have to die. If the evangelicals devote themselves to greater theological study and liberalisation, and also give up on self-promotion, that may bring them intellectual and social credit, but it won't help them to evangelise (just as it hasn't helped the moderate congregations in that particular task). And since they're now weakening on evangelism, those distractions may simply hasten the process.
But maybe that's how things have to be. Why should they be spared the virtuous death that awaits other indigenous Protestant groups?
Of course, not all evangelical churches face extinction any time this century, but the survivors will certainly be niche products. The future of the black churches is especially interesting. They may become more diverse as the communities around them become more diverse. But as the white British middle classes retreat further from diverse areas (according to Erik Kaufmann) they may have less and less contact with people unlike themselves. This will be compounded by a decreasing interest in evangelism. It all suggests a reduction in their influence on the culture and the world.
Who knows?
[ 17. April 2016, 23:16: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gamaliel
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I'm sorry, but I find this very sweeping too.
The Orthodox didn't disappear under centuries of Ottoman rule nor under Communist persecution, even though their capacity to evangelise or to 'take centre stage' was diminished.
It remains to be seen whether increasing Western-style secularism will undermine their apparent resurgence in Eastern Europe and elsewhere.
As far as evangelicals go, I think it's a truism that the less 'evangelical' they become the less evangelistic they become. However, there are other ways of evangelising and maintaining and bearing witness than thrusting tracts at people on street corners or holding rallies.
I'm not sure we have to see these things in terms of a binary divide between otherworldly and evangelistic and socially-conscious and less evangelistic.
I agree that it'll be interesting to see how the 'black-led' churches develop. Already there are signs of more 'mainstream' concerns and approaches there and I suspect this will continue. Whether this will erode their cutting-edge and distinctiveness remains to be seen.
I would submit that bog-standard 'indigeneous' forms of evangelicalism have already made some forms of accommodation to the zeitgeist.
There doesn't seem to be much future, it seems to me, for 'traditional' Brethren, Grace Baptists or other forms of home-grown independent evangelical outfits, unless they broaden out in some way.
I don't see what we might call 'indigeneous' forms of evangelicalism dying out - but I do see them losing the appeal they once had - but they were always an acquired taste and only ever gained traction in certain settings and under certain circumstances.
Overall, I don't see see the prognosis as one for tremendous optimism, at least not in number terms. But neither do I see any grounds for doom, gloom and despondency.
As far as the more enthusiastic elements go - using enthusiasm in its 18th century sense - that's always been cyclical. The Wesleys and others recognised that.
Even full-on Pentecostalism has its quieter patches in between the whoop-ups and revivals.
What does concern me, is that if the only 'flavour' of Christianity that people can see is an 'enthusiastic' one then that limits the appeal still further. 'Heck, I'm not joining them if they're expecting me to do THAT! ....'
I'm not sure what the answer is to that one.
Various forms of Christianity look increasingly exotic and 'out-there' in a post-Christian, secularised context ... whether it's genuflecting and making the sign of the cross or waving one's arms around charismatic fashion ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I agree that it'll be interesting to see how the 'black-led' churches develop. Already there are signs of more 'mainstream' concerns and approaches there and I suspect this will continue. Whether this will erode their cutting-edge and distinctiveness remains to be seen.
I think one factor that is being ignored is that the BME church scene is by no means as static as is being presented. There has been a large degree of churn in the churches/groups that are most active over last few decades, with lots of older (quite often Pentecostal) churches shrinking and dying out as they struggle to compete with some of the newer Pentecostal groups.
Also, I don't see that BME churches will be any less likely to undergo the same processes of the rest of the church in the UK, the only difference is the amount of time it will take before second and third generation immigrants assimilate.
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Baptist Trainfan
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I wonder though if, some years down the line, there will a reaction among some BME churches which predominantly draw from one ethnicity to "go back to their roots" and reassert their specific identity?
In a sense this is what we are seeing within some sectors of the Muslim community.
[ 18. April 2016, 10:06: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Jemima the 9th
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
My point is that there appears to be something in current culture, within the church and outside, which is deeply inimical to the kind of thing I would like to share - a relational, subtle faith that is indeed nourished by the sacraments and by the bible, understood and digested in its textual and other context. This is my alternative to the "terms and conditions Christianity" which to me is the real problem. That, of course, is not only evangelical in flavour, though I think this is the dominant flavour at the moment. (I owe the phrase to Rowan Williams, the last time I heard him speak, after the Julian lecture in 2014).
Fundamentally, I feel that the church militant will lose a lot if the gentle, daring exploration of people like H A Williams, John A T Robinson, Jim Cotter and others is allowed to pass from its lived experience. Our way of doing this now will change, but I think that process of exploring at the soft, delicate edges of faith and our understanding of God rather than speaking brashly from the centre of accreted certainty is vital to the health of Christianity, and to its ability to be heard by people whose ear is bruised by certainty.
I shouted "Yes!" to this so loudly I think I might have frightened the neighbours. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) Thanks so much for putting your finger on how I am feeling.
A while ago on another thread someone posted a link to a group set up in church called Heretics Anonymous - link to pdf here http://carrslane.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/HA-2015-16-Themes.pdf
I would love to set something up like this in my own church, though currently my mental health doesn't permit it. But one of the worries in approaching the clergy saying I'd like to do this discussion group, is that I can already hear the reply, "Oh but we have alpha for that". It is as though if we have questions, we do alpha. If we wonder about our place in the church we do a Shape course. If we think we might want to contribute more, we do a course to be a Pastoral Assistant. Life as a Christian in the local church is becoming professionalised & streamlined (whilst at the same time, the actual getting things done doesn't seem to happen any faster!) There seems much less room for a gentle, relational, exploring lived faith.
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I could be being overly prickly, but I would also like to decide for myself what might be good for me, if that's alright... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Well so would I, but I am under the authority of the church, tradition and scripture! Even when I disagree with the CofE's position I have to make it clear that I am disagreeing with the teaching of the church.
Your theological discussion group sounds like an excellent place that is reading widely. All power to it.
Thanks for your kind reply & encouragement. The thing about the way you are teaching, though, is that istm you say, roughly, "Here is what I think. Because of x. The church's teaching is y because of z. I disagree because...." Please forgive me if I'm wrong.
In doing what you do, there is enough substance for the churchgoer to know a) that there is official church teaching, b) that there may be other views and c) how they might go about exploring those for themselves. Very, very little of such teaching happens in my church.
This is why the idea of (say) uni-age post-evangelicals (for want of a better term) looking to move to other churches higher up the candle, or a more mystical spirituality, or whatever, doesn't fit with my experience. If you have been told that the evangelical way is the only way, that Anglo-Catholics are a bit dodgy, frankly, Roman Catholics are distinctly suspect, and as for the Quakers, well.........you're left with the impression that you might as well jack in Christianity altogether.
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