Thread: Be like Jesus Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :
 
As Christians, we are called to be like Jesus. He's certainly an admirable person to imitate. But how much do we actually endeavour to do so?

We go to church faithfully each week. We love to sing hymns and listen to a good sermon. We attend Bible studies, Mothers' Union and prayer groups. We love to socialise with other people from church over a nice cup of tea and a digestive. It's all very nice.

The trouble is, this niceness doesn't seem much like what Jesus went through. Yes I do believe he had a great time with his friends, but he ended up dying for his trouble. He was always challenging those in authority, not condemning them but msking them think. On the other hand, he always had time for people who were on the edges of society - shepherds, Samaritans, children, foreign women, etc.

I too have a problem with this. I've been brought up to be a Christian, but I've also been brought up to be - well, nice. But sometimes I think this niceness is overrrated. It can prevent us from being truly Christian, or evem acting as we would wish, were it not for fear of what others may think.

I suppose you could say I can be a bit of a snob. Which is something Jesus most definitely was not. What I am trying to say is that there are people I know, who I actually care a great deal about, even want to be friends with, who I am afraid to engage further with because they are not from a "nice" background and I think many of my usual (Christian) associates would be rather shocked that I even know them!
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
If the discussion is going to center around "nice" then we should probably establish a meaning for that.

In the United States, or at least within my experience, nice is pretty much synonymous with kind and I don't think anyone can be too kind for Jesus. I'm not sure what nice means where you come from but it sounds different to me. When I say, "What a nice man!" I mean he's kind and gentle. When you say it, it sounds like there's also an element of the upper class that isn't included in my definition. [Confused]

[ 01. April 2016, 20:12: Message edited by: Twilight ]
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
In the last couple of years I've started doing volunteer work at my childhood church which is now a mission center to the poor and those in recovery. I've met a lot of not-traditionally-nice people that I've grown to like. Yes, they have rough edges, but they teach me a lot about how humans can survive, thrive, and change under many circumstances. They also show me that we can all fail, and we can also pick ourselves back up with the grace of God. So I try to listen and show kindness because I'm getting a lot from my new friends.
 
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
If we think of Jesus as being Prophet, Priest and King, our individual discipleship would emphasize one of these in following Our Lord.

As Prophet, Jesus spoke truth to power, but also spoke tenderly and ministered compassionately to those in need, so some Christians are called into social justice work, while others are called to pastoral work. Both are following and emulating him, but neither does it both completely.

As Priest, Jesus leads in worshiping and directing all towards God the Father. The priestly ministry of the Church therefore is reflected in Christians involved in ministries of worship, prayer, and hospitality.

As King, Jesus leads his people. The leadership ministry is reflected in Christians called into administrative roles in the Church.

We follow and emulate Jesus in lives of discipleship. How we emulate him differs from each other according to our gifts and talents.
 
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
'Nice' is often used to mean polite rather than kind, smiling pleasantly while keeping one's hands clean, ready to wash up as long as there are rubber gloves and hot water to hand.

A church is sometimes a place where those who try to emulate Jesus are given the judgemental back- biting treatment to such an extent that they may leave with their tail between their legs never to return. A nice social arrangement is not what church is supposed to be.

Unless we're ready to wash everyone's feet, as Jesus did - even those of Judas - avoid judgement, welcome with love, be ready to forgive, etc we are not his disciples.
 
Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :
 
Working out how to be a good friend to someone of a different culture, how to be a parent, partner, neighbour or colleague, negotiating prejudice, inequality and the shifting ways of the world, is important work, I think. It was Jesus' way with people that most impresses me, his knowledge of them and the way he went to the heart of each encounter.

So I think that good manners, respect, courtesy and a lot of what might be dismissed as niceness or political correctness is important. As long as we can break through convention and be real.
 
Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
As the internet meme has it, when considering what would Jesus do, remember that turning over tables and whipping people is a possibility.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Bloody EXCELLENT Jude. What on EARTH, in HEAVEN'S NAME is what we do on Sunday got to do with BEING Jesus? To Himself in ALL others?
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Jesus wasn't nice, he was bloody annoying. Yes, killed for his trouble. Christians aren't nice, they are also bloody annoying. And kill others for their trouble. Because they are poor, in the wrong country, have the wrong religious brandname. Such as Islam.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Niceness, meh. One of the precipitating factors in the row that tore our old parish apart (and got us kicked out on our asses) was Niceness. When the church first started, everybody was poor, everybody was desperate, and pretty much everybody was harboring a whole xylophone of skeletons in their respective closets. You could hear them jingle every time we got together. One reason why people glommed on to the message of forgiveness and salvation in Christ. We knew we needed it.

But as time went by and people got acculturated, and wealthy (at least by local immigrant standards), quite a few of them forgot the Gospel in favor of Niceness. They began to object to people of unsavory backgrounds who showed up at church or who appeared to take up too much of the pastor's attention (usually during a crisis). They saw them as a blot on the congregation's reputation. And they forgot their own closet skeletons, now carefully dejingled and silenced and locked away out of memory. Their memory, at least.

The immediate catalyst for getting rid of us (and the non-Nice members who remained) came when a woman with a reputation for promiscuity began attending church, and several of the Nice members required Mr. Lamb to put her out of the church. He refused, and the split was on.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
A church is sometimes a place where those who try to emulate Jesus are given the judgemental back- biting treatment to such an extent that they may leave with their tail between their legs never to return. A nice social arrangement is not what church is supposed to be.
Are you equating backbiting and judgmentalism with being nice? Not how I'd use the word.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
Oooooh nice covers a MULTITUDE of sins.
 
Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :
 
If you behaved very much as Jesus did, as recorded in the gospels, you would have to be a prominent and controversial figure. You would become at least the leader of a breakaway denomination, if not of some new personal cult.
If every Christian tried to do that, it would be chaos.
But I do agree with the point that many people's practice of Christianity is safe, nice, insular and barely connected to the life of Jesus.
Maybe it would be more realistic to emulate the disciples of Jesus?
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
If you want nice then better stay clear of religion.

Secularism does give the appearance of doing nice quite well. There is however no human-made 'ism, ideology, society or practice that can deliver 100% nice. Besides, what is Nice? It's a word that can blow away in a breeze.

To OP. The character in the Gospel described as Jesus of Nazareth had some pretty rough edges, and even a bit of a temper when fig trees didn't come up with the goods.
 
Posted by earrings (# 13306) on :
 
Aravis said
quote:
Maybe it would be more realistic to emulate the disciples of Jesus?
In holy week one betrays, one denies, many are fearful and run. Consistently earlier they are easily confused. But post-Easter/Pentecost they begin to be transformed as do we now.
Learning to be the best we can be, to follow faithfully and in line with Jesus may be our best. Paul in Philippians says,
quote:
let this mind be among you...
and points to self-giving.
Not perhaps being Jesus but learning to be alongside Jesus
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
You'd associate with the needy, you'd serve them in every way you could. You'd defend the weak against murderous injustice. You'd speak to power - which is ALWAYS evil - publically. You wouldn't make pathetic deluded claims.
 
Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :
 
Pay close attention.

Do not condemn or judge.

If someone asks you for help, give it.

If someone asks you for something you have, give it.

Love your Creator.

Love your fellow being, especially if they present themselves as your opponents.

Do not take more than you need for today.

Do not store up possessions as if they will insulate you from suffering.

Forgive everyone, especially yourself (though I doubt Jesus had to do much of that).

Pay close attention. (It bears repeating)

AFF
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Micah 6:8.
 
Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :
 
quote:
Maybe it would be more realistic to emulate the disciples of Jesus?
Well Paul does say "be imitators of me as I am of Christ".
 
Posted by Russ (# 120) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
If the discussion is going to center around "nice" then we should probably establish a meaning for that.

In the United States, or at least within my experience, nice is pretty much synonymous with kind and I don't think anyone can be too kind for Jesus.
I think the temptation we're talking about here is that of judging people by how polite they are.

Part of being nice - being kind, being considerate of others - is being polite, having good manners.
So that when you see someone being rude, it's not inaccurate to say "that's not nice"

People are not born with good manners. It has to be taught (preferably by both instruction and example). Acting with good manners within one's community is a good thing.

The problem comes when encountering people who don't display good manners. Some of those will be nasty rude vexatious people who know perfectly well how to be polite but think they're too important to be bothered with that. Some of them will be having a really bad day - facing pressures (whether real-world stresses or mental disorder) that we know nothing of. Some of them will be kind people of different cultures or subcultures (wrong side of the tracks ?)

The temptation is to lump all these together as "not nice" and avoid them, based on their lack of what passes for manners in our own subculture.

Jesus was known for not doing that.

Polite is good; it's just not the only good.
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
A church is sometimes a place where those who try to emulate Jesus are given the judgemental back- biting treatment to such an extent that they may leave with their tail between their legs never to return. A nice social arrangement is not what church is supposed to be.
Are you equating backbiting and judgmentalism with being nice? Not how I'd use the word.
I'm bewildered by this whole thread, although I thank Russ for trying to explain it to me.

There's nothing nice about complaining that some new church members are not very clean or whatever the problem is. I've never attended a church where any member complained that the others weren't dressed well or were sleeping with too many men like the ones in LambChopped church, so I'm surprised to find that goes on.

Yet, if someone did, I would hardly call that person nice. I might be tempted to call that person a snob or shallow, but I wouldn't want to be that judgmental of my fellow church members and that's some of what I'm seeing on this thread.

You're looking around and complaining that they aren't -- what?-- heading into the scary part of town on Saturday night to preach the gospel to drug dealers? Are you? Even if you are should you be complaining that others aren't?

Nice things Jesus did:
Turn the water into wine so the host wouldn't be embarrassed (or just because his mom asked him to.)
Fed the 5000.
Healed the sick.
Raised Lazarus at least partly because his sisters were so upset.

Told a lot of people who didn't think they were very much, that they were blessed in God's site.
Most of what he did was nice.

In fact the only time he got really mad was when people were selling merchandise in the temple-- Evidently he didn't think that was very nice. Not the proper place, you know. There was also something about some man not bothering to put on the proper wedding clothing for some do.

Even if your definition of "nice" is "proper" rather than my definition which is "kind." I think there's some indication that Jesus liked "proper," when it was based on respect and consideration of others.
 
Posted by Russ (# 120) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
There's nothing nice about complaining that some new church members are not very clean or whatever the problem is.
Too right. That's not being nice, it's being judgmental.

But in a sense, as soon as one holds any values at all, that implies thinking less of people who don't live up to that value.

Valuing bravery (to pick a virtue entirely at random) means not being indifferent to bravery or the lack thereof as displayed by others. If you hold that value, how can you not think less of a coward ?

This "not judging" isn't easy. How to express the idea that "not judging" is a good thing, without implicitly judging those we perceive as judgmental ?

You may have a better answer. The only one I can see is to ask "less than what ?" To allow that the coward is less than they could be, less of a fully-human-being than we think God would like them to be. Without being less than the brave man. Incommensurate persons...
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
But in a sense, as soon as one holds any values at all, that implies thinking less of people who don't live up to that value.
Yes but that's true of any virtue, not just niceness. If you're going to say "We shouldn't try to be nice because that leads us to judge people" you have to say "We shouldn't aspire to any virtues because that leads us to judge people." And, ultimately, "We should try to be like Jesus, or Paul, or anybody. We shouldn't try to better ourselves in any way. Lest we fall into the temptation of judging others."

Which is nuts.

[ 02. April 2016, 15:26: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
We should all be bastards, lest we judge someone.
 
Posted by Russ (# 120) on :
 
That may be your excuse...
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Being that kind of woman, and it being spring...I am thinking more along the lines of "Would Jesus (or Our Mother or Mary M) wear these sandals?"
 
Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

In fact the only time he got really mad was when people were selling merchandise in the temple-- Evidently he didn't think that was very nice. Not the proper place, you know. There was also something about some man not bothering to put on the proper wedding clothing for some do.
He frequently called his audience "hypocrites". That's not very nice.
 
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
A church is sometimes a place where those who try to emulate Jesus are given the judgemental back- biting treatment to such an extent that they may leave with their tail between their legs never to return. A nice social arrangement is not what church is supposed to be.
Are you equating backbiting and judgmentalism with being nice? Not how I'd use the word.
I'm bewildered by this whole thread, although I thank Russ for trying to explain it to me.

There's nothing nice about complaining that some new church members are not very clean or whatever the problem is. I've never attended a church where any member complained that the others weren't dressed well or were sleeping with too many men like the ones in LambChopped church, so I'm surprised to find that goes on.

Yet, if someone did, I would hardly call that person nice. I might be tempted to call that person a snob or shallow, but I wouldn't want to be that judgmental of my fellow church members and that's some of what I'm seeing on this thread.

You're looking around and complaining that they aren't -- what?-- heading into the scary part of town on Saturday night to preach the gospel to drug dealers? Are you? Even if you are should you be complaining that others aren't?

Nice things Jesus did:
Turn the water into wine so the host wouldn't be embarrassed (or just because his mom asked him to.)
Fed the 5000.
Healed the sick.
Raised Lazarus at least partly because his sisters were so upset.

Told a lot of people who didn't think they were very much, that they were blessed in God's site.
Most of what he did was nice.

In fact the only time he got really mad was when people were selling merchandise in the temple-- Evidently he didn't think that was very nice. Not the proper place, you know. There was also something about some man not bothering to put on the proper wedding clothing for some do.

Even if your definition of "nice" is "proper" rather than my definition which is "kind." I think there's some indication that Jesus liked "proper," when it was based on respect and consideration of others.
'Nice' definitely has a class aspect to it for some people....I would view the Pharisees as 'nice' in that they were respectable and 'proper', regardless of the insides. 'Nice people' definitely mean 'sufficiently middle-class people who are like us' (in the British sense) to me.

'Proper' is based on classism rather than actual respect and consideration of others, surely?

I also am not sure whether 'nice' is the right term to use for miracles proclaiming the glory of God and the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven. It feels a bit like saying a momentous historical event is 'nice'.
 
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
He was ALWAYS nice to the powerless. Always. And he NEVER abused His power.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I tend to use nice to mean inoffensive, tolerant, and mildly pleasant.
As I use the term, backbiting and intolerance are definitely not nice.
Nice is not good, as is often said. Someone who is nice might be too willing to go along with injustice. Protesting is usually not nice. But as a general rule, I think in cases of doubt it's better to risk erring on the side of nice than the side of not nice.
 
Posted by Jude (# 3033) on :
 
Your tagline says it all Dafyd.

Raptor and Martin are right on.

The question here is not about being nice rather than nasty, but about how our version of niceness equates to following Jesus. How do we behave around people who aren't "nice"? Can we show them the same compassion that he did? And not in a superior way, but as fellow travellers?
 
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
The flip side is being a jerk and blaming Jesus.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Maybe it would be more realistic to emulate the disciples of Jesus?
This is one reason that we (Orfies, Caffix, etc.) have a cadre of saints that we learn about, paint icons of, etc. People to emulate.
 


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