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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Red ken and antisemitism
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
The problem with 4 is that 'Do you condemn Hamas?' is used as a gotcha question by people who have no interest in the issues involved but who want to be able to brand their opponents as terrorist sympathisers. I think people who are sympathetic towards the Palestinian cause are right to be wary of it.
That said, I also object to 11. Even if one thinks it's justified, I don't believe comparing a Jewish state to Nazi Germany is ever going to have a positive or constructive outcome. This should be predictable to anyone with an entry-level understanding of human behaviour, which then raises the possibility that those who make the comparison are in fact not really interested in positive or constructive outcomes.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I think it is very easy for people to try to put all Palestinians into the camps of "terrorist" or "victim", wilfully ignoring the complexities of a society which has been under intense pressure for many decades and has nothing approaching a normal economy.
The reality is complex and over-simplified statements are used by all sides to use ordinary people as pawns in a wider religio-political conflict.
On Hamas - there are several things to be said here. First, it appears to be a historical fact that Hamas was initially supported by the Israelis to bring instability to the Palestinian people. Which if true, and from what I can gather it is, then that gives a puzzling perspective to the whole thing.
Second, as I said above, I am a pacifist. However under international law, an occupied people have the right to use violence to defend themselves. So there is something of an irony if one is saying that the Israeli military can use overwhelming force against civilians in a space from which they can't escape but armed factions on the other side are not able to use force in return. My issue with Hamas is that the violence is counter-productive - and indiscriminate -, not that it is unjustified.
Third, Palestinians have several times tried campaigns of non-violence which have gotten them absolutely nowhere, so it isn't really a great surprise when they're pushed into a corner that they react with something that is literally suicide. Palestinians are a very stubborn people.
Finally, Hamas have reformed and made concessions, the reality is that nobody gives them any credit for that whatsoever. Instead the message that the Palestinian people get from the "democracy loving" western countries is that they've made the wrong democratic choice and therefore deserve to be ostracised and punished for it.
fwiw, I have no love for any of the Palestinian factions or the pockets of deep nasty fundamentalism which exist around the Palestinian territories. But simply allowing Israel to impose de-facto unilateral punishment on a whole people because they don't like the way representatives have been elected - and let's not forget that a large number of Palestinian elected officials are currently in Israeli prisons, many without charge or conviction - is to sit back and tell Palestinians that they only matter when they give the correct answers.
Most Palestinians agree with a two-state solution including Hamas. Most want peace, freedom of movement, contiguous land, external borders, airports, deep-water ports and a functioning economy. Those things are entirely in the hands of Israel as occupier, not Hamas. It is that the hard-liners in Israel have no interest in a viable Palestinian state.
[ 06. May 2016, 07:34: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
You may not have noticed that I didn't say 'talking to Hamas' was antisemitic. Nor did I refer to comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. What I referred to was an example of a self-reflective process.
This next comment is tangential. It does not always work, but long experience suggests that however much it may stick in one's craw, talking to abhorrent people or organisations offers more prospect of getting them to become less abhorrent than any other approach. Even 100% eradication, which some people usually advocate and think will be more effective, has less prospect of being achievable.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Your list is a very helpful discussion point because some interesting things emerge.
For instance I don't think anyone is challenging Holocaust denial as a marker of anti-Semitism. Would it be possible simply to be honestly mistaken about the historical evidence? To think that accounts are unreliable simply as an academic judgement and to want to ask questions in a free-thinking spirit? In theory it must be, but in practice consensus seems to be that if your free-thinking leads you to conclude that the Holocaust didn't happen you probably have a prejudice that guided your free-thought.
On the other hand Cheesy illustrates very well how one can thoughtfully disagree with the statement "Hamas are abhorrent".
Taken out of context "it isn't really a great surprise when they're [Hamas] pushed into a corner that they react with something that is literally suicide" could be quite inflammatory and considered evidence of anti-Semitism. Whereas seen in context one might disagree but one could hardly describe it as anti-Semitic.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Your list is a very helpful discussion point because some interesting things emerge.
For instance I don't think anyone is challenging Holocaust denial as a marker of anti-Semitism. Would it be possible simply to be honestly mistaken about the historical evidence? To think that accounts are unreliable simply as an academic judgement and to want to ask questions in a free-thinking spirit? In theory it must be, but in practice consensus seems to be that if your free-thinking leads you to conclude that the Holocaust didn't happen you probably have a prejudice that guided your free-thought.
It is. I've met normal people who are just swept along by a tide of conspiracy theories about the Holocaust and do not have the resources to research the truth. In that circumstance it isn't very surprising that the easiest option is to believe, along with everyone else in the group you belong to, that the Holocaust didn't happen.
To me that is a form of Holocaust denial that is just born of ignorance. One could go after those who perpetuate this nonsense - which do indeed include Hamas - but I don't think you can necessarily allocate blame equally to everyone.
That said, there is a level of chicken-and-egg here. If one believes that the Holocaust is a great lie, then it isn't so much of a step to believe other lies about Jews, particularly if the only time you see a Jew is when they're pointing a gun at you or disrespecting your grandparents.
This is one of the reasons why it is so important for Jews to meet Palestinians and for them to hear about the Holocaust. And also why things like the Breaking the Silence meetings between former Palestinian and Israeli combatants are so important.
[ 06. May 2016, 09:05: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
You may not have noticed that I didn't say 'talking to Hamas' was antisemitic.
Sure, but 'abhorrent' in itself is just describing my mental state, which shouldn't be relevant, and indeed isn't relevant if I am nonetheless advocating dialogue with them.
quote:
Nor did I refer to comparing Israel to Nazi Germany.
I'm not sure how else to interpret 'Suggesting that a Jewish state should not treat people the way the Nazis treated them'. The implication is that (in the mind of the speaker) that is how the Israelis are treating the Palestinians.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Nor did I refer to comparing Israel to Nazi Germany.
I'm not sure how else to interpret 'Suggesting that a Jewish state should not treat people the way the Nazis treated them'. The implication is that (in the mind of the speaker) that is how the Israelis are treating the Palestinians.
I expect Enoch was thinking of examples like this:
IDF general compares Israel to Nazi German then walks back comments after right-wing backlash/
Which isn't the first time something similar has been said by someone from Israel.
[Edited to fix scroll lock. Replace long URLs with text. - Gwai]
[ 06. May 2016, 11:12: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
To me that is a form of Holocaust denial that is just born of ignorance. One could go after those who perpetuate this nonsense - which do indeed include Hamas - but I don't think you can necessarily allocate blame equally to everyone.
Isn't that then also anti-Semitism born of ignorance? One might be variably culpable for one's racism depending on resources available to be critical, so the degree of willfulness may vary but it is still anti-Semitism.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Isn't that then also anti-Semitism born of ignorance? One might be variably culpable for one's racism depending on resources available to be critical, so the degree of willfulness may vary but it is still anti-Semitism.
I think this may just come back to the issue of defining anti-Semitism.
If we're meaning (in extremis) that an anti-Semite is someone who considers a Jew sub-human and will take any opportunity to berate, beat or murder him - a definition that I've just made up - then I don't think having ignorant views about the Holocaust inevitably means personal animosity to Jews. Or even necessarily animosity to a specific group of Jews.
Animosity to a large number of people is a bit more difficult to call, I think. I've met Palestinians who talk a load of shite about the Holocaust, who don't have a good word to say about Israel and so on. And yet who were very polite to the Jew that I was with.
Now, I'm not claiming to have met all Palestinians by a long stretch, and I'm certain that there are some who are itching to get into a personal fight with a Jew as a representative of everything they see as evil in the world. But the ones I met have a very strong sense of hospitality and appeared to be able to spout mountains of rubbish whilst at the same time apparently caring for the individual in front of them.
I've never met a skinhead Neo-Nazi, but having seen them recently protecting in Dover, I'd be much more worried about them meeting a Jew in the street.
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arse
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
I think Mark Steel has nailed it:
quote:
In the Independent...
You can’t help wondering, if you’re a bit cynical, whether people who scream and yell about antisemitism only when it suits them as a stick to beat their opponents, might be the most insulting towards Jews of all.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I was once grabbed behind by a skin-head who stated a desire to do something unpleasant to my black face. (Or words to that effect). As he got a closer look he realized we knew me - we had been "friends" in school (a relationship clearly in need of re-appraisal). He apologized and left me to stagger off looking for some alcohol.
Was he not a racist because he was able to view me as an individual?
People are contradictory and aspects of them in different context may be racist or not racist. Perhaps it makes more sense to categorize statements and actions as racist/not racist rather than individuals.
(By the way the police didn't make such fine philosophical distinctions, although did find it quite a low priority to follow up on my report and eventually decided that the word of 5 bystanders all apparently known to the accused but luckily in the area against 1 (me) wasn't going to go anywhere useful and dropped it. This was quite a while ago.)
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
mdijon wrote: quote:
People are contradictory and aspects of them in different context may be racist or not racist. Perhaps it makes more sense to categorize statements and actions as racist/not racist rather than individuals.
That's got a lot going for it. It can be helpful in pointing out that even in the hands of the best-intentioned, something can have negative consequences. Even if your self-image is as someone implacably opposed to racism or anti-semitism - a stance which though laudable has the possibility of blinding you to the fact.
Though I guess that against it, there really are some people who have adopted these stances into their identity, and for them I would say the terms can stand.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I am still curious as to which people on the left are reckoned to be anti-semitic. Enoch referred to a 'strain on the left', but wasn't more specific than that. I have heard rumours that the SWP have had trouble with this, but no hard facts. Where else?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We have to pour aid in to Gaza and the occupied West Bank. We HAVE to, can ONLY, obtain peace through universal social JUSTICE.
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I am still curious as to which people on the left are reckoned to be anti-semitic. Enoch referred to a 'strain on the left', but wasn't more specific than that. I have heard rumours that the SWP have had trouble with this, but no hard facts. Where else?
The SWP has imploded, quetzalcoatl, though more over sexism than this I think.
But its a good question. I think there are some strains on the further left that are implicated, though not all by any means.
I think they are largely those that take the entire thoughts of Marx (perhaps) and Lenin (definitely) as definitive. And some the Trotskyite outfits as well. The problem with identifying them is more that these groupuscules come and go, whilst arguing virulently among themselves.
But if you wanted a more detailed explanation as to what is going on, I am not Enoch, but I could give it a try, though my knowledge is distinctly partial.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
People are contradictory and aspects of them in different context may be racist or not racist.
Very true. For example, it's my experience that racists who are also football fans have few problems with black players who play for their team. As long as they play well, of course...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I am still curious as to which people on the left are reckoned to be anti-semitic. Enoch referred to a 'strain on the left', but wasn't more specific than that. I have heard rumours that the SWP have had trouble with this, but no hard facts. Where else?
Quite a while back the SWP had an issue with Gilad Atzmon's blatant anti-Semitism.
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arse
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I am still curious as to which people on the left are reckoned to be anti-semitic. Enoch referred to a 'strain on the left', but wasn't more specific than that. I have heard rumours that the SWP have had trouble with this, but no hard facts. Where else?
Quite a while back the SWP had an issue with Gilad Atzmon's blatant anti-Semitism.
Except Atzmon's ideas predate his association with the SWP by a very long way, are complicated by that fact that he himself is a Jew (albeit an aggressively secular one) and it is not always clear to what extent what he says are in parody.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
.. and seriously, if your evidence for widespread anti-semitism in the Labour party is the involvement of a particular loose cannon in the fringes of a fringe of the party - who is in addition foreign and Jewish, I'd say you were on fairly shaky ground.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Outside the recent Tory attacks, is anyone saying there is widespread antisemitism within the Labour party?
(Genuine question - just calibrating).
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am forty and have been a a labour party member pretty much all my adult life. It is not something I've heard raised before, and as I said upthread, we have recently had a labour leader and foreign secretary of Jewish heritage.
I found the stories about the Oxford group quite wierd, I literally wouldn't have known what "zio" meant if I hadn't seen it explained in a news article.
On my father's side of the family they fled the Russian pomgroms at the end of the nineteenth century and came to Britain. I remember my great aunt talking about the people they knew who died in the holocaust, so it is the sort of thing I would notice.
Just thinking back more generally I live in a fairly wealthy place, but work in a more deprived area, with some significant immigration - both people from in and outside europe. I have come across homophobia, I have a client chose to leave the area and go to london because a five year old in a shop called her a "nigger". But I have yet to hear direct, anti-Semitic insults.
I have heard people talk alot about the arab isreali conflict in the course of my life, not least cos I spent chunks of my childhood in the middle-east. Where the line is is those conversations is probably a matter of debate - but it was usually people talking about actual fighting / state actions in that actual location. (As opposed to assuming all Jewish people are a proxy for Israel.)
In discussing the recent issues with my mum, discovered that her boss referred to my dad once as "a pushy jew" - this would have been in the sixties before they were married, he's 79 now - she said "you didn't tell people they were racist in those days, so I just said he's not jewish".
[ 06. May 2016, 19:59: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
In discussing the recent issues with my mum, discovered that her boss referred to my dad once as "a pushy jew" - this would have been in the sixties before they were married, he's 79 now - she said "you didn't tell people they were racist in those days, so I just said he's not jewish".
Anecdotally, whilst I've heard plenty of racist remarks in working class circles, the only time I've personally heard anti-Jewish/Semitic remarks is from the middle classes and up, with the remarks becoming more oblique the further up the social scale one moves.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Outside the recent Tory attacks, is anyone saying there is widespread antisemitism within the Labour party?
(Genuine question - just calibrating).
The Chief Rabbi is, though the definition he outlined was pretty damn broad. Several right-wing Labour MPs have been, because it's the latest useful stick to beat Jeremy Corbyn with.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
In discussing the recent issues with my mum, discovered that her boss referred to my dad once as "a pushy jew" - this would have been in the sixties before they were married, he's 79 now - she said "you didn't tell people they were racist in those days, so I just said he's not jewish".
Anecdotally, whilst I've heard plenty of racist remarks in working class circles, the only time I've personally heard anti-Jewish/Semitic remarks is from the middle classes and up, with the remarks becoming more oblique the further up the social scale one moves.
Possibly, though to what extent you are also talking about effectively class insults - new money vs old for example - is not clear.
When I was young I was taught that respectively, Jewish referred to a religious group (which you were born into via your mother's heritage), Hebrew referred to the racial group from which most Jewish people come - but you could be Hebrew without being Jewish (I think this group would now refer to themselves as atheist Jews or culturally Jewish) and Semitic referred to the peoples who are the racial groups in the middle east and surrounding areas and this includes the arabs.
In terms of direct racial prejudice, I think many or even most people would struggle to identify people of Jewish heritage by sight - if not wearing traditional dress - and many people in the younger generations would not necessarily recognise the surnames. This probably makes whatever level of prejudice there is, more difficult to spot.
For example, If I hadn't read Maureen Lipman's autobiography I wouldn't have known she is Jewish.
[ 06. May 2016, 21:33: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
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Posted
Anecdotally, whilst I've heard plenty of racist remarks in working class circles, the only time I've personally heard anti-Jewish/Semitic remarks is from the middle classes and up, with the remarks becoming more oblique the further up the social scale one moves.
My experience too. But isn't this correlated to the socio-economic and geographical distribution of Jewish people in Britain?
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Which is another reason why anti-semitism doesn't, on the face of it, look like such a major problem. Widespread prejudice usually leads to widespread discrimination, which would normal exclude the persecuted minority from positions of power, wealth and influence.
This doesn't appear to be the current fate of the Jewish community in Britain. There have been Jewish MPs and Lords all my life, and famous and celebrated Jewish folk in many walks of life. A Jewish mayor of London would have been fairly unremarkable, but a muslim and/or a person of colour - that causes comment.
Now that I come to think of it - given the name - is Zac Goldsmith of Jewish descent ?
[ 06. May 2016, 22:54: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Checked that - yes he is - so I would add, that despite a fairly ill-tempered campaign, there doesn't seem to have been a slew of anti-semitic covert or overt insults chucked at him. I'd be very surprised - given the subject of this thread - if it had happened and just not been reported.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
There's been rumblings in the press for a few months. Mostly comment pieces and the issues with Oxford students.
So, I wasn't surprised when this blew up.
I have done a bit of soul-searching about this: wondering about my own biases and blind spots but basically I've come to the conclusion that it is what it smells like: bullshit.
It's a brilliant narrative with which to beat the Labour party (and Jeremy Corbyn particularly). Our media is appalling and it is well established how they will create a narrative and then only report things that fit with it. The print media lead and the broadcast media follow by reporting the story of the story. Jeremy Corbyn is under pressure due to accusations of...
I love the BBC and think we should stand up for it but their reporting of the election results has been startlingly biased against Labour.
Anyway, in other news, Sadiq Khan is now London's mayor. Despite the horrific slur campaign waged against him... ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
One final thought, Ken has some form in this area. I genuinely don't think him antisemetic but I do think him an idiot. A few years ago he was being harassed by a journalist. From what I've read I think Ken was very much in the right here - the guy was vindictively targeting him. Ken then used some rather unhelpful hyperbole in accusing the reporter of being like 'a concentration camp guard.' Which is inappropriate in almost all circumstances but given that the reporter in question was Jewish gave the media a lot of ammunition. As I said, Crass and Stupid.
So, now it's time for a proper investigation in to the Conservative Party's anti-Islamic position... Having watch PMQs this week, I can tell you, it goes all the way to the top...
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
My impression with Livingstone is that he gets into fights and reaches for any weapon that's to hand, without stopping to think how it will look; he's just trying to bludgeon his opponent. Most of the time he can get away with that, but occasionally the weapon looks an awful lot like some pretty unpleasant prejudice, whether it's anti-Semitism or a pretty awful attitude to people with mental illness. I don't think he's actually anti-Semitic or prejudiced against people with mental illness, he just opens his mouth and his ego is too big to allow him to walk it back when he says something offensive.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I think this is back to categorizing people again. Perhaps one could say that he generally doesn't say or do anti-Semitic things but on that occasion he said something anti-Semitic, or certainly that had an obvious anti-Semitic interpretation even if he didn't mean it like that, and ought to have apologized but didn't.
It reminds me of the situation where someone tries to determine the truth or not of a statement based on whether the speaker is a liar or not. Actually none of us are truthful all the time or lie all the time. While character and past record is informative it is more useful to get on with categorizing the statement as true or not true rather than going through "are you saying he's a liar?" arguments.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Premier Khan 2020
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Anyway, in other news, Sadiq Khan is now London's mayor. Despite the horrific slur campaign waged against him...
Jemima didn't much like it either.
In the racist stakes, who is the kettle and who is the pot? I think the finger of suspicion points away from the red and towards the blue.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
It's (slightly) pleasing to note that the Conservatives' campaign is now widely being discussed as having had a negative impact on their votes. In the longer run I hope that everyone, them especially, learn from it. For as long as I can remember, negative campaigning has had the reputation of blowing up in the perpetrators' face.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think this is back to categorizing people again. Perhaps one could say that he generally doesn't say or do anti-Semitic things but on that occasion he said something anti-Semitic, or certainly that had an obvious anti-Semitic interpretation even if he didn't mean it like that, and ought to have apologized but didn't.
That's a fair point, it's reasonable to look at it either way.
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
It's (slightly) pleasing to note that the Conservatives' campaign is now widely being discussed as having had a negative impact on their votes. In the longer run I hope that everyone, them especially, learn from it. For as long as I can remember, negative campaigning has had the reputation of blowing up in the perpetrators' face.
Though given that by all accounts it was out of character from him. I can't help but feel a little sorry for him as he learns (like the Tory Imam earlier), how quickly his 'friends' vanish (with the loot) when it's convenient.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
Though given that by all accounts it was out of character from him. I can't help but feel a little sorry for him as he learns (like the Tory Imam earlier), how quickly his 'friends' vanish (with the loot) when it's convenient.
He was either stupid or venal, so I don't feel sorry for him. Either he couldn't control his campaign and therefore doesn't have a gift for leadership, or he though this was a good idea (he made dog whistle remarks himself, after all).
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think this is back to categorizing people again. Perhaps one could say that he generally doesn't say or do anti-Semitic things but on that occasion he said something anti-Semitic, or certainly that had an obvious anti-Semitic interpretation even if he didn't mean it like that, and ought to have apologized but didn't.
It reminds me of the situation where someone tries to determine the truth or not of a statement based on whether the speaker is a liar or not. Actually none of us are truthful all the time or lie all the time. While character and past record is informative it is more useful to get on with categorizing the statement as true or not true rather than going through "are you saying he's a liar?" arguments.
I heard on the radio that the Jewish reporter was working for the Standard, which was then part of the same stable as Northcliffe papers which had supported Moseley and printed that the H man was a good thing before '39. Hence the choice of insult - but not the idiocy of not stopping.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
My wife was thinking of voting for Goldsmith (London mayoral election), as he seemed to have strong green credentials, and seemed less abrasively right-wing than other Tories. Also Khan is somewhat dull.
However, when the campaign began in earnest, we were both incredulous at the smearing racist nature of the Tory campaign. It amounted to saying don't vote for a Muslim, (hint, extremism, terrorism, blowing up buses), not really a wise approach today, I would think.
Anyway, in the end she voted Khan, and Goldsmith just looks like a patsy to the right wing racists.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Outside the recent Tory attacks, is anyone saying there is widespread antisemitism within the Labour party?
(Genuine question - just calibrating).
I guess this would depend on your definition of "widespread," but some of the more prominent non-Tory persons include:
-Jeremy Newmark, national chairman of the Jewish Labour Movement
-Lord Levy, former chief fundraiser of Labour under Blair
-John McDonnell, Labour Shadow Chancellor
-Louise Ellman, one of Labour’s most senior Jewish MPs
-Sadiq Khan, Mayor of London
-Jonathan Arkush, President of the Board of Deputies, the U.K.’s main Jewish organization
-David Miliband (strongly implied, if not stated outright)
(see my post on p. 1 for links of the above)
-Ephraim Mirvis, Britain's Chief Rabbi - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/04/chief-rabbi-labour-has-severe-problem-with-antisemitism
See also numerous op-eds in the Guardian, e.g.:
Antisemitism is a Poison – The Left Must Take Leadership against It - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/15/antisemitism-israel-policies-labour-activist-vicki-kirby
Labour and the Left Have an Antisemitism Problem - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/18/labour-antisemitism-jews-jeremy-corbyn
The Guardian View on Antisemitism: Stay Vigilant on the Left Flank - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/the-guardian-view-on-antisemitism-stay-vigilant-on-the-left-flank
It’s Time the Left Faced Up to Antisemitism - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/07/hadley-freeman-labour-party-hitler-antisemitism
Of course, others here will label them all as right-wing, anti-Corbynists and dismiss the very notion an issue exists. You can decide.
[ 09. May 2016, 04:25: Message edited by: GCabot ]
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Reposting the media sound and fury doesn't prove anything. My understanding is that we're now up to 18 concrete allegations of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, most of which are very recent and still under investigation. I would have expected at least a few hundred, or widespread accounts of incidents that went unreported, if this were as large a problem as is being made out. And yes, most of the people listed do have an axe to grind against Corbyn, whether because they're cheerleaders for Israel or for more general political reasons. The definition of anti-Semitism being used by the Chief Rabbi is so broad you could drive an armoured bulldozer through it.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It may also be worth looking at percentages rather than absolute numbers, something like 500,000 folk voted in the leadership election - so I am going to guess that formal allegations & prominent incidents are involving a very low percentage of the party. Alongside the fact that Labour has prominent Jewish MPs and Lords.
As to the speed of Corbyn's response, what would people consider reasonable ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Mirvis says this:
quote:
He also hit back at those who argue that it is legitimate to criticise Zionism, arguing that the right to Jewish self-determination has been at the centre of the faith for more than 3,000 years.
“It is astonishing to see figures on the hard left of the British political spectrum presuming to define the relationship between Judaism and Zionism despite themselves being neither Jews nor Zionists,” he writes in the Telegraph.
“The likes of Ken Livingstone and [NUS president] Malia Boattia claim that Zionism is separate from Judaism as a faith; that is purely political; that is expansionist, colonialist and imperialist.”
This appears to frame the debate in terms of faith & Israel rather than race.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I have to say that the Guardian has been particularly one-sided in this debate, giving plenty of space on CiF to people who want to make wider claims about anti-Semitism in Labour and nothing for anyone who says anything different.
And, honestly, I couldn't give a shit what Jonathan Freedland says about anything, given his piece about Finkelstein has been on the Guardian website since 2000.
It finishes in the following way:
"Finkelstein sees the Jews as either villains or victims - and that, I fear, takes him closer to the people who created the Holocaust than to those who suffered in it."
He compared an author who lost relatives in the holocaust to the people who killed them.
To then make claims about other people and what they wrote years ago is the height of hypocrisy.
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arse
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
It's called "Comment is Free" for the very good reason that nobody would pay good money for it, mr. cheesy. The whole concept attracts the obsessive constituency from Grauniad readers and beyond, of every stripe. I gave up on it years ago, even though there is some genuinely interesting stuff on there from time to time.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Everybody on the left has realized pretty quickly that the Guardian is the most ferociously anti-Corbyn newspaper around. During the leadership campaign, nearly every day saw an attack on Corbyn by one of their luminaries.
I don't know whether their editorial team is made up of Blairites or what, but nobody is surprised now, that they pursued the anti-semitism agenda, in order to blacken Corbyn, as of course, did many right-wing media.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Reposting the media sound and fury doesn't prove anything. My understanding is that we're now up to 18 concrete allegations of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, most of which are very recent and still under investigation. I would have expected at least a few hundred, or widespread accounts of incidents that went unreported, if this were as large a problem as is being made out. And yes, most of the people listed do have an axe to grind against Corbyn, whether because they're cheerleaders for Israel or for more general political reasons. The definition of anti-Semitism being used by the Chief Rabbi is so broad you could drive an armoured bulldozer through it.
The people I mentioned, among others, are the very ones giving account of the otherwise-unreported, larger problem within the Labour Party. The incidents that have been publicized invariably represent a plethora of similar incidents that never become widely known. Furthermore, those involved run the gamut from MPs to local officials, University students to old Labourites, etc.—it is not as if blame can be wholly apportioned to one group on the Left.
You can continue to claim this is all part of some grand, sinister conspiracy against Mr. Corbyn, but I have yet to see any reliable evidence to corroborate that theory. Frankly, I find it baffling that you and others here are willing to dismiss any idea that a problem might exist so casually.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It may also be worth looking at percentages rather than absolute numbers, something like 500,000 folk voted in the leadership election - so I am going to guess that formal allegations & prominent incidents are involving a very low percentage of the party. Alongside the fact that Labour has prominent Jewish MPs and Lords.
So, anyone reporting allegations of anti-Semitism is automatically disqualified as biased if they are Jewish? I have to admit, that is a clever way of burying the problem.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Everybody on the left has realized pretty quickly that the Guardian is the most ferociously anti-Corbyn newspaper around. During the leadership campaign, nearly every day saw an attack on Corbyn by one of their luminaries.
I don't know whether their editorial team is made up of Blairites or what, but nobody is surprised now, that they pursued the anti-semitism agenda, in order to blacken Corbyn, as of course, did many right-wing media.
Well, the last time I checked, the Guardian was still the most representative of the Labour Party out of the reputable British papers. I have yet to see the evidence that the Guardian has some ax to grind against Corbyn, rather than merely reflecting the reasoned opinion of a significant part of Labour. Would it have been better if I had cited the Morning Star instead?
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
Frankly, I find it baffling that you and others here are willing to dismiss any idea that a problem might exist so casually.
I'm not sure anyone is saying that there is no problem. What people are saying is that the appearance of a problem has been inflated for political reasons (to try and put Corbyn in a difficult situation). Part of that inflation is a blurring of the lines between criticism of the actions of the government of Israel, anti-Zionism and anti-semitism, resulting in a large number of people critical is the actions of the government of Israel being called anti-semitic.
But, it is an inflation of a problem - and, there are some antisemites within the Labour Party. There are two questions that immediately follow - 1) is the proportion of anti-semites within the Labour Party significantly different from other political parties and the wider British population? (ie: is it a Labour Party problem or a British one?), and 2) are the procedures within the Labour Party to discipline genuine anti-semites adequate? (is action rapid enough, are the actions taken sufficient?)
Personally, it looks very much like the Labour Party has a level of anti-semitism that is representative of the UK as a whole, and that ultimately we as a nation need to deal with the anti-semitism in our midst (and, that includes having media that report the anti-semitism in other political parties rather than just focussing on Labour). And, that is part of a wider streak of xenophobia, racism and other bigotry.
It also looks like when someone is accused of anti-semitism there is a rapid investigation within the Labour Party, in the more serious cases with a suspension of membership while that takes place. Which doesn't look like a tardiness to deal with anti-semitism. Of course, a fair investigation takes time, so the actual formal expulsion from the party if found to be guilty is a bit slower. But, I don't think any of us want to have excessively rapid punishment following every newspaper article that takes something out of context and spins an innocuous remark into a charge of anti-semitism. Trial be media is not justice, whatever the circumstances.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
I agree with your assessment of the extent of the problem, Alan, and that it has been blown out of all proportion. But I would return to what mdijon said earlier, which is that it is more helpful to identify rhetoric that is anti-semitic, rather than try to identify anti-semites. Maybe the latter exist in the Labour party (I'm not sure), but it's the way of framing things that seems to be causing the problem.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It may also be worth looking at percentages rather than absolute numbers, something like 500,000 folk voted in the leadership election - so I am going to guess that formal allegations & prominent incidents are involving a very low percentage of the party. Alongside the fact that Labour has prominent Jewish MPs and Lords.
So, anyone reporting allegations of anti-Semitism is automatically disqualified as biased if they are Jewish? I have to admit, that is a clever way of burying the problem.
I think you should re-read the original, it doesn't say what it appears you think it is saying.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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