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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The doors of perception: drugs, when and why would you do them?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I grew up on the Canadian Prairies where, oddly, some of the initial research on hallucinogenic drugs occurred in the late 1940s into the 1950s. The word "psychedelic" is derived from psychedelicacy which is what psychiatrist Humphrey Osmond wrote about taking PCP to Aldous Huxley (Osmond was recruited from the UK to Saskatchewan).
Today I am hearing again about a rejuvenation of the use of hallucinogenic drugs to treat end of life depression/anxiety, other mental health issues like OCD and alcoholism.
There's more than this reference, but I felt that this was easy and concise: How psychedelic drugs can help patients face death.
This is a 1959 handbook about using LSD therapeutically: Link.
There is a whole medical marijuana industry cropping up.
My questions: Is it reasonable to use chemical substances to alter perception of reality? Is it different if they are used to treat some illness or condition versus for personal growth? Could we have a Christian use of drugs? Why or why not?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Wasn't Revelation written by someone under the influence of hallucigens of one sort or another?
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Wasn't Revelation written by someone under the influence of hallucigens of one sort or another?
I don't see how anyone could come up with a definite answer to that.
That type of literature was fairly common in the ancient mid-east.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
As long as there are legal issues, Christians are bound to consider the law. That makes most of the OP a no-brainer at this point as far as real life goes. But if things were otherwise, I suppose drugs would be licit provided one did moral and medical due diligence on them (not participating in anything that was apt to cause damage to oneself or anybody else, for instance).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
There are moves underway here to permit cannabis for therapeutic use. Already, the Federal Parliament has amended the Narcotic Drugs Act to legalise the growing of cannabis for medicinal and scientific purposes. NSW has a committee examining the effectiveness of cannabis in a range of illnesses/conditions, and trials are underway. I'd be surprised if legislation was not soon in place to allow prescription. I have not followed other States but gather that similar steps are being taken.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
One of my additional reasons to start this topic is my scepticism about medical uses for various substances. Mostly I hear about use for pain management and for psychological trauma with marijuana, but the hallucinogenic drug angle got me wondering. I am always looking for data and an evidence base to understand such things.
Another reason for starting the topic is the idea that the "doors of perception" can be openned and some enlightenment occur with some of these substances. Again, I am sceptical. Much as I find the idea seductive.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
If I lived in a state where its legal I would be using MJ (but I don't want to go to prison for attempting to heal my brain damage).
As to purely recreational, I've never liked getting a buzz from alcohol and probably wouldn't like being high on drugs. But personal preference shouldn't determine laws civil or moral.
God sure made a lot of psychoactive plants! Why should they necessarily be though evil, as opposed to being used with awareness of their power?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
What is meant by perception? Would aspirin (derived from tree bark) or opiates be considered perception altering because they reduce the perception of pain? Or, would aspirin not count because it also reduces inflamation, and hence reduces pain in addition to just the perception of it?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
There are many like me who take medication for mental health issues. They quite explicitly change ones perceptions of reality.
These medications enable people to function. The argument that they are "ill" and so their perception of reality is "wrong" and needs "fixing" is a very difficult one to argue - there is a strong argument that neurotypical is actually ill and failing to properly understand the implications of the reality we live in.
I think Douglas Adams may have given us the problem with reality. The "Reality" is that we are a speck of dust on a speck of dust in a universe that cares nothing about us, and that one day we will be forgotten in a dying universe. If you can cope with that, you are sick. If you need something to help you function, I am not sure I have problems with that.
On the other side, I think there is a danger of so failing to understand the workings of the brain that we find God speaking when it is just the connections being made. The brain is a wonderful thing, an incredibly complex and subtle thing. But it is not God. Just because a thought comes into our head with the name "God" attached, doesn't mean it is God speaking to us.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
A lot of my friends have taken stuff regularly, such as acid. I always felt too scared!
They seem to have experienced interesting stuff, but I don't think it makes any permanent difference to their life. A lot of them are in their 70s now, so they are slowing down!
A group of them went to the Amazon to take ayahuasca, (later finding out it is easy to get in London of course). Anyway, they raved about its mind-bending results, but I notice that they are still seeking enlightenment, if you want to call it that.
Some of my friends who have done Zen, seem to have had very powerful experiences, without drugs. I'm not sure that it matters either way. Life is life, is one experience really preferable to another?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Wasn't Revelation written by someone under the influence of hallucigens of one sort or another?
Revelation is literature written in a genre we no longer use (apocalyptic). Its principal feature is the embedding of objectified significance within a real-world (or quasi-real world) narrative. Understanding it now will involve some tough mental exercise, much more so than would have been involved for its intended audience originally. It goes without saying that attempts to read it literally are bound to produce results ranging from the absurd to the farcical.
So the answer to your question is almost certainly "no", though I can't prove it. However, it's still interesting, as some of the original users of LSD report stages on the trip where they did indeed experience reality in a sort of literal-apocalyptic way. The "revelation" became literal for them you could say.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
What is meant by perception? Would aspirin (derived from tree bark) or opiates be considered perception altering because they reduce the perception of pain? Or, would aspirin not count because it also reduces inflamation, and hence reduces pain in addition to just the perception of it?
I think what is meant is an extraordinary perception akin to a sense of enlightenment or mysticism. Some realization of something that violates normal perception of reality. I get rather moved by some music, which I gather is part of it -some emotional stirring. But it seems that some people feel that they step aside from normal reality and perceive something else than the music. Perhaps tasting the notes or seeing their colour. A matter of degree I should think.
Pain relieving medication seems different. It reduces sensation or otherwise alters perception, but doesn't create something new. (I wonder if I am on the right tack here.)
I also think of conversion experiences, speaking in tongues and other "nonordinary reality" types of experiences. And if it is legit to use drugs to promote a charismatic state.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The most ancient mood-altering drug is alcohol. And caffeine is the staff of life. Someone has recently made the case that the Industrial Revolution may be attributed to the advent of tea and coffee, with their stimulative effect. Before their arrival in the West, people would drink beer (water wasn't safe) and then be soused for the rest of the day.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I see a difference between mood-altering and consciousness changing. But then I agree with Doc Tor that booze and books can do both.
Consciousness changing is very difficult to define, but it's something to do with the ego, let's say, a loosening of ties with it.
And this can happen by any means, including going for a long walk, listening to music, playing music, dancing, sex, and just breathing, (used famously in many meditation systems).
I suppose some of the drugs give you an abrupt shift out of ego mode into trans-ego mode, or whatever you want to call it. Some people find this ravishing, some terrifying.
But then you get into interesting stuff about ego, trans-ego, non-ego, and so on, and the whole array of mystical literature beckons, in different religions.
But I have friends who seem to have gone full circle, and come back to ordinary life. As they say in Zen, when I'm hungry I eat, when I'm tired, I sleep. But also: at one with the food we eat, we give thanks for the universe.
[ 12. May 2016, 14:25: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think Douglas Adams may have given us the problem with reality. The "Reality" is that we are a speck of dust on a speck of dust in a universe that cares nothing about us, and that one day we will be forgotten in a dying universe. If you can cope with that, you are sick. If you need something to help you function, I am not sure I have problems with that.
So if I don't need mind- or mood-altering chemicals to cope with being a soon-to-be-forgotten speck, I'm sick? Does such sickness require a cure? And if so, what would that be?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I see a difference between mood-altering and consciousness changing.
I don't see a significant difference. When they put me on Xanax what I noticed immediately is a dysfunctional calm (absolutely no interest in doing anything). Not unlike what I remember from long ago of being stoned.
But the other effect was to totally remove/block any sense of God's presence. Ever since they put me on Xanax over a year ago if the thought of "pray" crosses my mind is it is gone in a second or two. "Pray" hasn't happened in over a year.
My limited personal experience is prescription drugs are spiritually dangerous, marijuana is not.
YMMV. (I know nothing about other drugs.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I see a difference between mood-altering and consciousness changing.
I don't see a significant difference. When they put me on Xanax what I noticed immediately is a dysfunctional calm (absolutely no interest in doing anything). Not unlike what I remember from long ago of being stoned.
But the other effect was to totally remove/block any sense of God's presence. Ever since they put me on Xanax over a year ago if the thought of "pray" crosses my mind is it is gone in a second or two. "Pray" hasn't happened in over a year.
My limited personal experience is prescription drugs are spiritually dangerous, marijuana is not.
YMMV. (I know nothing about other drugs.)
OK, fair enough. I just meant that some of the traditional methods of consciousness changing, are not aiming to change mood, although they may do so at times. In fact, some people go through massive highs and low during meditation and contemplation, but that is not the point. Some people also experience a lot of emptiness.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I see a difference between mood-altering and consciousness changing. But then I agree with Doc Tor that booze and books can do both.
Consciousness changing is very difficult to define, but it's something to do with the ego, let's say, a loosening of ties with...
By ego do you mean self consciousness?
I'm already embrassingly (for others) unselfconscious.
I tried various mind altering substances back in the 70s, I didn't like any of them - except alcohol, which I still enjoy.
I hated the hallucinations and much prefer my own imagination! I never tried anything more than once (which was lucky, for sure)
[ 12. May 2016, 16:28: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't feel that marijuana alters my perception much. It makes me a bit more relaxed, that's all.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
N.P.F.I.S.S.: quote:
I think what is meant is an extraordinary perception akin to a sense of enlightenment or mysticism. Some realization of something that violates normal perception of reality. I get rather moved by some music, which I gather is part of it -some emotional stirring. But it seems that some people feel that they step aside from normal reality and perceive something else than the music. Perhaps tasting the notes or seeing their colour. A matter of degree I should think.
I have heard people describe psilocybin (aka magic mushrooms) in this way. A little while after ingesting, you become hyper-aware of little things around you that you take for granted. The way grass moves when the wind blows. The way light shimmers off of wet rocks. The comfort you feel from being around other people. Depending on your mood and surroundings, it can be incredibly beautiful. What sticks with you in the following weeks is a memory of what you saw, and an awareness that the beauty you witnessed is still there- grass still moves when the wind blows, it just took a reminder to see it.
The last bit, I suppose, could be what a lot of people mean when they talk about the improved outlook that they experience after clinical tests. That little reminder that things around you are beautiful could mean a lot to someone who has suffered significant trauma.
(Yeah, this sound like double rainbow guy, and he sounds ridiculous when you watch the video. But aren't you just a little jealous that you can't be that jazzed about a double rainbow? (OK, maybe not quite that jazzed.))
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Today I am hearing again about a rejuvenation of the use of hallucinogenic drugs to treat end of life depression/anxiety, other mental health issues like OCD and alcoholism.
Considering these conditions, and others are becoming widespread in Western cultures then I would say that, if there is something to be had from this then it requires urgent attention.
I've end life depression/anxiety recently and it's not pretty. Throwing morphine at it seemed to serve a purpose but looked only slightly better than locking the person in padded cell until it's all over.
Like other posters I have had a few experiences with psychotic substances, mainly the natural ones. Some of the effects were positive, fortunately it didn't lead to dependency . Having said that my life has reached a stage whereby I like a drink, and could easily come to rely on it were it not for a strong discipline, (or some would say built in kill-joy feature).
There are people who, were they not regular cannabis users, would undoubtly have fallen foul of alcoholism.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I have always had vivid memorable dreams and for many years taken anti-convulsants. Some of my dreams repeat, often day after day, and now that I have had to give up alcohol I find that the dreams are brighter still and easier to recall.
I suppose these drugs are supposed to affect your brain so it's no surprise that one's mind is affected too.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
N.P.F.I.S.S.: quote:
...an extraordinary perception akin to a sense of enlightenment or mysticism.
I have heard people describe psilocybin (aka magic mushrooms) in this way. A little while after ingesting, you become hyper-aware of little things around you that you take for granted. The way grass moves when the wind blows.
A friend was offered magic mushrooms at a party, tried it, and says during the effect of the mushrooms is when she saw that the guy she was dating was unhealthy for her. As if she had sort of known it but had been not admitting it, the mushrooms helped her see clearly. She broke up with him a week later.
The danger (if any) may be not in seeing differently (and then when sober deciding if the different was informative or not) but turning to this one kind of experience as if the only source of seeing things clearly. Dependency on any one thing for getting thru life is a trap, because (at minimum) sometimes that one thing become unavailable. Must be flexible to survive.
I have cyber friends for whom these substances were the gateway to meditation, they haven't used these substances in decades but appreciate the introduction they gave.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think Douglas Adams may have given us the problem with reality. The "Reality" is that we are a speck of dust on a speck of dust in a universe that cares nothing about us, and that one day we will be forgotten in a dying universe. If you can cope with that, you are sick. If you need something to help you function, I am not sure I have problems with that.
So if I don't need mind- or mood-altering chemicals to cope with being a soon-to-be-forgotten speck, I'm sick? Does such sickness require a cure? And if so, what would that be?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
They seem to have experienced interesting stuff, but I don't think it makes any permanent difference to their life. A lot of them are in their 70s now, so they are slowing down!
A group of them went to the Amazon to take ayahuasca, (later finding out it is easy to get in London of course). Anyway, they raved about its mind-bending results, but I notice that they are still seeking enlightenment, if you want to call it that.
Life-altering experiences that don't alter one's life. Might as well just have a pint.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
They seem to have experienced interesting stuff, but I don't think it makes any permanent difference to their life. A lot of them are in their 70s now, so they are slowing down!
A group of them went to the Amazon to take ayahuasca, (later finding out it is easy to get in London of course). Anyway, they raved about its mind-bending results, but I notice that they are still seeking enlightenment, if you want to call it that.
Life-altering experiences that don't alter one's life. Might as well just have a pint.
I don't know really. How could I?
But I have a lot of friends who did stuff without drugs, and I would say that some of them have had their life altered. I think there are doors, well, not of perception, but of ego-consciousness, which can be bust open, so that there is the experience of Oneness, or if you like, Noneness. This can really shift stuff around, mainly by releasing large amounts of love. Well, OK, love is the drug, that I'm thinking of, love is the drug got a hook on me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
My point wasn't that one cannot have a truly life-altering experience, but skepticism that hallucinogens were a viable path.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
My point wasn't that one cannot have a truly life-altering experience, but skepticism that hallucinogens were a viable path.
It does seem to be temporary. My ex-wife just took acid every Sunday, and this seemed to make her happy, but maybe Mondays weren't so hot.
I knew one guy who had a permanent enlightenmentacalistic thing, but he had been poisoned by a thief! Not recommended.
Fascinating guy, though.
http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/arConversation.htm
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
This is kind of like the story of the Forbidden Fruit. It is not a new story.
There is the adage: in all things practice moderation.
I used to use food to combat stress and in the process became morbidly obese. I have lost a lot of wait since I came to my senses. Still have a lot more to go.
I think the jury is still out on the use of controlled substances. Take marijuana. Yes, it does seem to have a positive outcome for pain management and glaucoma. It also relaxes a person and is a decent anti anxiety substance.
However there are some costs, smoking any substance will damage ones lungs. It can cause neurological changes in the brain--especially when one smokes it at an early age (between 10 and 20 the brain goes through some very significant changes on its own. Ad a mind altering substance and things can go haywire).
For me, it has always been a matter of benefits vs costs. At this point, the costs of using psycho active substances outweigh the benefits for me; though I have to admit, given my arthritis in my back and knees, marijuana is looking more attractive as time passes.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
This is kind of like the story of the Forbidden Fruit. It is not a new story.
The other side of that is the acceptance of familiar devils. Alcohol is devastating drug, but we not only accept it, but laud its abuse.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
My point wasn't that one cannot have a truly life-altering experience, but skepticism that hallucinogens were a viable path.
I read the autobiography of a man who was very much involved in drugs in the 1960s. It horrified me because he talked for page after page of the profound understandings he gained, but it seemed to me that everything he said was very shallow and unoriginal.
It appears that what drugs did for this particular man was give him delusions of profound understanding. I am not suggesting that everyone is like this.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
OK, so drugs probably won't lead to enlightenment. Many of us have known drug enthusiasts who thought that they were reaching higher states of being while everyone around them thought they were just acting like pathetic losers.
But what if psychedelics actually can improve life for people who have suffered trauma? There are apparently serious people who think they have that potential, as seen in the opening post.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good, as the cliche goes. If there is potential to use these drugs to help people with PTSD, trauma related depression, or alcoholism, let's not write them off because we had friends who used them a few times and it don't lead them to actual enlightenment.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
We already use heroin as a pain killer, what is the difference in using a psychedelic? It is an issue of perception.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Narcotic pain relievers are a different class of drugs than the hallucinogens. Heroin isn't used in Canada as a pain drug, though in palliative care I'd support it.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
This study may be of interest. The researchers concluded that magic mushrooms might be a suitable treatment for depression, with psychological support and under medical supervision. But it wasn't a blind trial and they only tested 12 people.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There doesn't seem much difference from using normal medication for people who are depressed or disturbed in some way. If it turns out, that consciousness-raising drugs can help, why not? I guess they will have to be tested to destruction, witness deaths from MDMA, and related stuff.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Narcotic pain relievers are a different class of drugs than the hallucinogens. Heroin isn't used in Canada as a pain drug, though in palliative care I'd support it.
I'm not sure how being in a different class is relevant. Narcotics have recreational use, massive abuse potential and debate on the efficacy for some prescribed treatments. And you do use opiods, which is what Heroin is, in Canada.There is currently talk of using heroin itself.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
They gave me heroin (under a different name) after surgery when straight morphine had no effect at all. Something metabolic apparently.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I have not found any info that heroin under any name is used medically or surgically in North America. Perhaps another similar drug? Of which there are many.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Could be. This is just what the nurse told me. Google tells me there are similar drugs she could have gotten it confused with, given some of the other stuff she said.
[ 21. May 2016, 10:38: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Could be. This is just what the nurse told me. Google tells me there are similar drugs she could have gotten it confused with, given some of the other stuff she said.
You get Diamorphine (aka pure Heroin) in the UK as pain relief. Works pretty well too. So did the Methadone after leaving hospital.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
This study may be of interest. The researchers concluded that magic mushrooms might be a suitable treatment for depression, with psychological support and under medical supervision. But it wasn't a blind trial and they only tested 12 people.
According to, uhh, total strangers I've overheard talking in restaurants, mushrooms give you a pretty intense emotional rush for a few hours, but the effect is gone by the next day, with no noticable long-term changes in disposition. So I'm surprised to hear about these results, though perhaps the researchers were administering them in a manner different from the average recreational user.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Personally I wouldn't try any illegal drugs, but I tend to avoid medication anyway (I'm aware this is luck more than choice).
My personal view is that there is too much of an artificial boundary between illegal and legal mind-altering substances. I can't honestly see much justification for the strictness re marijuana compared to the laxity re alcohol. True, passive drug smoking can be a problem (it's occasionally an issue for community medical/care staff when they realise they're under the influence of a substance and not safe to drive to their next visit!) but alcohol seems more likely to cause aggression. And I think morphine is often over-used with little consideration of who has to pick up the pieces with the patient afterwards. Yes, it's great at wiping out pain. It can also have quite strong effects on your mobility, digestion, perception and ability to function mentally.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
Three years ago I was involved in a clinical drug trial for chronic depression and anxiety. I received i.v. infusions of Ketamine. For the first week of the study, I got infusions three days in a row, the second week, the same thing, the third week, two days, the fourth week, one day, and then two infusions two weeks apart. I tripped my brains out for the first month of the study. I was so tripped out that the research center had to have me rest in a supine position for three hours after each infusion (it took 35 minutes for the bag of medicine to completely get in my system) and drive me home afterwards. I sang show tunes, I came up with amazing drum rhythms, I composed poetry...I didn't see God but my depression took a fast train out of town and I didn't have any depression until about a year after the last dose.
However...I also participated in yet another Ketamine drug trial; this one was much different. I had to inhale this dosage and the effect completely knocked me for a loop within the first minute that the drug made it to my brain. I didn't see God but I did feel as though I was spinning through galaxies. It was very unpleasant, actually. I forgot my name, didn't know where I was, didn't know who all these figures in white lab coats were, couldn't feel my body, couldn't focus my eyes...at one point I remember thinking that all reality was completely made up and that I was just a mind, floating through the universe..yeah, scary as hell! This lasted for about an hour and it was quite possibly the scariest hour I have ever lived through.
When I "came back to myself", I felt so weird and exhausted that I almost quit the study. It did get much better, however, and it did help my depression but I, who abhor needles, would much rather trip out from a Ketamine I.V. infusion than ever have that terrible feeling of not knowing WHO I am or even IF I am.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
Oops! Correction: For the second Depression drug trial, I had to squirt the Ketamine up my nose. It goes to the brain faster that way.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The5thMary wrote:
quote:
.at one point I remember thinking that all reality was completely made up and that I was just a mind, floating through the universe..yeah, scary as hell! This lasted for about an hour and it was quite possibly the scariest hour I have ever lived through.
I remember getting into this on a long meditation retreat, but I did it gradually, so the fear came first, and after I'd wept for several hours, and shrieked, and so on, I allowed it in. Yes, quite an experience. I don't know whether it's 'true' or not, but I still get flashbacks on it, and it's kind of useful as a corrective.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I forgot to say that in my experiences, there is no universe, and no mind. Anyway, mere details, which needn't detain us!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I forgot to say that in my experiences, there is no universe, and no mind. Anyway, mere details, which needn't detain us!
No universe AND no mind? Hey, does that mean I don't have to repay my student loan? Maybe it doesn't really exist! Maybe I think I owe the government money because that's a way I can make myself feel guilty, because I can't pay it back? But then, IS there really a government? Oh, dear...I need a Ketamine infusion, STAT! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The5thMary
Well, those are interesting questions. Is there really a government? I would say yes and no, which maybe is cheating. But human existence is full of abstractions, which we all go along with, but in direct experience seem to vanish.
One of the problems with this line of enquiry, which some people doing meditation, follow, is that it starts to get scary, as one challenges all perceptions. Is there really up? Again, yes and no. Is there really me? <Loud screaming>.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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