Ship of Fools: Does the Queen decide who is honored?

Thread: Does the Queen decide who is honored? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :

This story about the Queen passing out honors on her birthday made me wonder. Does she actually select the honorees? Or does someone else make the decision?

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

In Australia, it's the Government who draws up the list in one way or another. Not sure if there is State govt involvement or if its just the big boys and girls in Canberra. I'd imagine there is some sort of committee. Personally, I like to pretend that HRH draws them out of a hat.

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

Sorry for double-post. Actually, what I'd like to happen is that the govt draws up a big list, they meet and are allocated numbers and the Queen pulls numbered counters out of a bag, holding them up, putting on her Queen voice and saying the number, like "Legs Eleven".

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

The government decides for almost all though a small handful are within the Queen's gift. Off hand the Order of Merit is one.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Almost all of the honours announced yesterday in the UK will have been given "on advice". Names will have been submitted to the UK Prime Minister, or the Foreign or Defence Secretaries for vetting, consideration and ranking. The Queen is then advised to grant the honours; by tradition and quite unwritten the Queen and her viceroys in Commonwealth monarchies follow any advice given by the Prime Minister and Cabinet ministers in this or any other matter*.

In Australia and Canada, there is a Council which recommends the award of honours in the Orders of Australia and Canada. I think that NZ is very similar. Names submitted by the public are considered by a Secretariat within the Governor-General's Office. The formal award is made by the Governor-General as Chancellor of the Order. The political influence so strong in the UK is non-existent.

There are some specific honours which are in the monarch's personal gift - Knighthoods of the Garter and Thistle, any award in the Royal Victorian Order, the Order of Merit and (from memory) Companions of Honour. These will have been considered in the Private Secretary's office, perhaps on suggestions made externally, perhaps following a request from the monarch. No advice from any politician on those.

* The monarch of the UK, Australia, NZ, Canada etc is entitled to give advice, to seek advice and be advised. If the monarch is advised -eg to give approval to legislation passed, to dissolve Parliament and call an election, or anything else - that advice must be followed. Famously. Harold Macmillan refused to give advice to the Queen on who should be his successor. Instead, he he gave her a paper setting out details of soundings conducted within the Conservative Party about possible choices.He considered that it was HM's prerogative to make the choice and had he given advice she would have been bound to follow it. Practice since has been for the departing Prime Minister to give advice, even if that be to appoint the leader of an opposing party which has just won a majority in an election.

[ 12. June 2016, 02:29: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

There have been recent occasions where the Palace (either HM directly, or through her Private Secretary) have objected to names submitted, and sometimes names were withdrawn, or stayed on the list, depending on what the PM wanted. The only one which comes to mind immediately was the several-year delay in Mick Jagger's knighthood, on account of his drug convictions and assorted instances of debauchery.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

An example of HM exercising her right to give advice, and the PM accepting it.

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Before the process gets that far, anyone can submit an application for an honour to be given to someone else. There's a form on the Govt. website somewhere.

M.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Before the process gets that far, anyone can submit an application for an honour to be given to someone else. There's a form on the Govt. website somewhere.

M.

If you're in the UK, you would go to this page. There are similar nomination sites for Oz and for Canada.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Net Spinster

quote:
The government decides for almost all though a small handful are within the Queen's gift. Off hand the Order of Merit is one.

HM Government decides who is put forward for an honour in the UK - with input from the Northern Ireland, Welsh and Scottish offices for people living outside England.

The Foreign & Commonwealth Office puts forward names of people from dependent territories - Tristan da Cunha, etc. The FCO also puts forward names sent to it from those commonwealth countries which still use the Crown honours system.

The sovereign alone decides on three types of honour: members of the Order of Merit, Knights of the Garter, and ranks within the Royal Victorian Order: this last is usually for those who work on the crown estate or who perform some specific service for the royal family - for example, staff at royal peculiers.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Do not forget that on the same basis as HM bestows the Garter, the Victorian Order and OM, she also does the Thistle.

Does anyone have definite knowledge about the award of Companion of Honour?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Pending information on the CH, I think I'm right in saying that the Garter (and doubtless also the Thistle) used to be awarded on advice, and only came to be within the Sovereign's personal gift comparatively recently- perhaps even during the current reign.
There's also something called the Royal Victorian Chain which is a rather exclusive personal award that ranks above the Royal Victorian Order.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Prime Ministers - commonwealth as well as UK - send names to the Palace suggesting people become a Companion of Honour.

BTW Albertus, Garter knights have always been decided by the sovereign alone, similarly the Order of the Thistle.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I think one of us must be mistaken about the Garter and the Thistle, l'organist. I'm pretty sure I remember reading that in the C19 they were awarded on advice and were rather high-denomination bits of Prime Ministerial patronage (only awarded to people who were pretty grand and titled already, as a rule). There is IIRC also a minor sub-plot in one of the (later?) Palliser novels about that, and although Trollope wasn't infallible I think he generally knew what he was writing about when it came to politics.
And yes- bit of Googling finds this from Sir Ivor Jennings in 1959- appointments to Garter or Thistle could since 1946 be initiated by either the monarch or the PM.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Largely what Albertus said, certainly during the C19. I am not sure when that started though, perhaps with George I?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Garter Knight - I always have this image of a bloke on a horse wearing stockings and garters.

What on earth is actually supposed to mean?

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Garter Knight - I always have this image of a bloke on a horse wearing stockings and garters.

You're not far off.

"Honi soit qui mal y pense" and butch blokes in armour and blue thongs.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

A Garter Knight is a Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Garter. It is the most senior order of chivalry in the UK. There are now Garter Ladies as well, with identical standing. The Scots equivalent is the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, which ranks immediately below the Garter. I am not sure of the position in Scotland - it may outrank the Garter there. Now dormant of course is the Order of St Patrick, which was the Irish equivalent.

I hope this leaves you better informed, and also amused, rather than being bored. We could get into the Order of Wear in Australia and then compare it with that in the UK, Canada and NZ; that will really put you to sleep.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Prime Ministers - commonwealth as well as UK - send names to the Palace suggesting people become a Companion of Honour.

BTW Albertus, Garter knights have always been decided by the sovereign alone, similarly the Order of the Thistle.

I have it from one of those involved in the paperwork that General de Chastelain's name was suggested by the Palace, and winged by Prime Minister Chrétien for information and a theoretical non obstat. There was no Advice from Canada. I have another source with whom I can verify this but it will take a bit of time.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Would that have been advice Augustine, or comment? Had it come here, it would have been a matter for comment only.

There have been 3 Australians given a KG, all of them former Governors-General. I do not know the background to the honour being given to Lord Casey; I understand that HM sought comment from both the then PM and the Opposition Leader before the grant to both Sir Paul Hasluck and Sir Ninian Stephen.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Would that have been advice Augustine, or comment? Had it come here, it would have been a matter for comment only.

There have been 3 Australians given a KG, all of them former Governors-General. I do not know the background to the honour being given to Lord Casey; I understand that HM sought comment from both the then PM and the Opposition Leader before the grant to both Sir Paul Hasluck and Sir Ninian Stephen.

I capitalized Advice as that would have suggested a constitutional act/formal nomination. So it was really a courtesy note-- if there had been a possibility that it might have been controversial or not happy-making, there would have been some discreet calls before any paperwork happened to avoid difficulty (I understand that this happened once upon a time, but my source gave me no specifics). I have no idea if Mr Manning (then Opposition Leader) was consulted by anyone at any stage.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Thanks.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

Spiffy duds.

Good thing I'll never receive the privilege - I could never keep track of what to wear with what.

Huia

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

We employ people to remember those things and dress us.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
.... The Scots equivalent is the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle....

Can't remember who was the rather dim Scottish peer of whom it was said that they'd thought about giving him the Thistle but decided that he'd probably only eat it.

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