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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: loving the thing we know we might lose
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I was thinking last night about Jo Cox's husband and the presence of mind he had to make a public statement so soon after experiencing such a huge personal tragedy.
I was also thinking about this idea from Kierkegaard which is something about being aware of the possibility of losing the thing/person that you love but being prepared to consciously and wholeheartedly love them anyway - despite the fact that this commitment might make the pain even stronger.
I was then thinking about what I might say if I lost someone close to me. What I might say to the media about them, how I might try to sum up their lives in a eulogy, how I might live without them.
Of course this is more-than-slightly ridiculous because nobody can know what they will experience in that shocking moment when someone precious is snatched away. And there is something distasteful about the apparent expectation that people in shock should be able to be stoic and sensible and coherent soon after a great loss and when they've not even begun to appreciate the full implications of how their life has changed in an instant.
So the question I'm asking is whether you waste any time thinking about how you might react to a great loss - and that might not be a death but might be a house fire, loss of occupation, severe illness or whatever.
And if you have experienced any kind of loss, do you think thinking/dreaming about it beforehand was any help?
I'm thinking it probably is a waste of time in the sense that it probably doesn't help to prepare one for a sudden shock, but it might help to ground us and keep us grateful for the things we have.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Thought-provoking OP, thanks. As for me, I try to think of absolutely anything else rather than thinking about losing the people I love most. Surely such a loss is something for which cannot rehearse?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Surely such a loss is something for which cannot rehearse?
I'm sure we can't rehearse it. But I'm not altogether sure that we should avoid thinking about it. And perhaps in thinking about the possibilities of one form of loss we might be better prepared for another.
Of course, I can also appreciate that it isn't healthy to think about this all the time.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
You will get your chance to think about it one day. Possibly after those hits on Google you wish hadn't come up. Probably as you lie in the scanner. Certainly as you sit in the characterless little office withthe kind - but busy - doctor.
Nowadays it's not so much the skull on the table (reflective contemplation, for the use of) as the stacks of pills, the pre-prepared syringes and the booklet from Macmillan.
At some point you have to do the work of negotiating a future without the one you love, or of yourself taking an earlier leave that you would have wished.
I have no prescription other than to talk about it as and when, neither denying or obsessing. It is what it is, and meanwhile we are in this moment and that is where we have to live.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
One of my best friends was murdered a couple of months ago. Trying to eulogise (to the CID) on the afternoon of the day the body was found was one of the hardest things I've had to do precisely because it was all so unreal.
Having said that, the problem was that my mind went completely blank - it was such a bizarre afternoon that when I could think of something to say I was fluent and it all came quite easily. However I literally had to ask the young DC taking my statement for an opening line. "How do people usually start it?" I didn't take his advice, but his advice unlocked the black void in my head.
The grieving came later. It was the same when my Mum died - provided somebody gave me something to kick against, I could give chapter and verse in the first 24 hours, the breaking down came later.
So it's no surprise to me that Mr Cox could do what he did yesterday - in my experience you can do a lot in the immediate aftermath. Just not necessarily 24 hours later.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
That's a terrible thing, betjemaniac. I'm sorry for dragging the memory up again.
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arse
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
That's a terrible thing, betjemaniac. I'm sorry for dragging the memory up again.
absolutely no problem at all - if it wasn't something I carried round at the front of my mind all the time at the moment anyway I wouldn't have posted so please don't worry about that! In any case, we've had the funeral now and that has closed things down a bit more. Just the trial to come...
In answer to your question though, I think it might be a waste of time thinking about it in advance yes. IME you do just sort of cope when it happens, and I'm not sure that you cope in the way you might have planned to when you thought about it, if that makes sense?
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What priceless insight betjemaniac.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
The last paragraph of your OP where you speak of grounded in gratefulness is what resonates with me mr cheesy.
It is, as has already been said, quite impossible to rehearse the sudden, or even not sudden loss of a loved one. Grief in the secular world appears quite different from that which Christiany has conditioned us towards over many Centuries.
Anger and feelings of retribution are being replaced by something not easy to describe, but demonstrated powerfully by the statement from this MP's husband just moments after her death.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Mr Cheesy quote:
if you have experienced any kind of loss, do you think thinking/dreaming about it beforehand was any help?
My other half died very unexpectedly 4 years ago, but before that had been diagnosed with terminal disease.
I had to make a conscious choice of keeping up their spirits and avoiding any mention of shortened life-span because they couldn't (wouldn't) discuss it; at the same time I knew it was important not to lie to the children (16 when we were told it was terminal) because otherwise (a) they had to be prepared, and (b) in any case we'd always made a point of telling them the truth. And that also meant I had to face square on the approach of bereavement so that, as and when it happened, I could be strong for the children and also for the task of dealing with the practicalities.
Thinking about it beforehand was helpful but only up to a point - but that may be because they died less than 12 hours after I'd been assured by medical staff that they would be fine for at least another 6-9 months and had a life expectancy of 12-18 months.
Four years down the line I think the thinking/dreaming was very helpful in enabling me to cope with things like funeral, and the children were taking their 'A'levels at the time, and that I then had to deal with them leaving for university didn't help so I had 4 months of having to be all-singing, all-dancing, coping Organist. The downside was that because I had had to present to the world the image of someone in control and dealing with things it felt unreal and I went into a profound depression which is still there, although not so severe now.
Did (does) the rehearsing/ preparation make it better? Yes, at the time; but there is a nagging sense of guilt that I didn't grieve because I didn't care - I know that is my stepchildren's interpretation - and modern society has little time for the bereaved once the funeral has been and gone.
Would I do things differently if I'd known what was going to happen? No, because there was no alternative.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Landlubber
Shipmate
# 11055
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Posted
Thank you, Betjemaniac, for your post and Firenze for this.
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
You will get your chance to think about it one day. Possibly after those hits on Google you wish hadn't come up. Probably as you lie in the scanner. Certainly as you sit in the characterless little office withthe kind - but busy - doctor.
Nowadays it's not so much the skull on the table (reflective contemplation, for the use of) as the stacks of pills, the pre-prepared syringes and the booklet from Macmillan.
At some point you have to do the work of negotiating a future without the one you love, or of yourself taking an earlier leave that you would have wished.
I have no prescription other than to talk about it as and when, neither denying or obsessing. It is what it is, and meanwhile we are in this moment and that is where we have to live.
For me, they are two sides of the coin: the sudden end and the end one has a while to see coming.
Scroll past the rest of this if a personal story could hurt you.
I was a worrier all my life and feared the first, in a vague, unachieving way. Now, facing the second, I don't feel that the past worry helps, but I don't see it as a waste of time either. It made me who I am now.
When I lie awake now I find myself planning care homes, my loved one's funeral or where I should live after it, which is my coping mechanism. However, even while I do that I am aware that things can change so quickly I will probably not use any of the plans I have made. When I have finished planning all that, I scream on the Cancer SUCKS thread Hell (sorry, ipad will not link).
No moral to the tale, except that we are different and are helped by different things.
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They that go down to the sea in ships … reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man
Posts: 383 | From: On dry land | Registered: Feb 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You have my tears mate.
In love we might deny to ourselves and the loved that we will lose them one way or the other.
But we will. Even if it's us dying. Or fading, losing, being lost long.
So, off to live in the moment, keep busy, grateful. Lucky me. I know depression won't let you do that. Found a swathe of Mimulus guttatus - seep or common yellow monkeyflower, growing on a bridge pier in Bugsworth Basin, Buxworth, Derbyshire two evenings ago. A couple each of Père David's (snakebark) Maples and downy birches last Saturday, on the west bank of the River Soar, opposite Castle Park, Leicester. That was after Friday's redundancy. So the depression is only briefly spasmodic at the moment ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Me hips are going mind. But much better than they were at first in the canoe at Buxworth.
God bless you in and beyond your grief and slowly fading depression my friend. You got the tears again.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
dear friends ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The 'mate' was L'organist. And now you Landlubber.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Thanks all for your thoughts and the possible link between (perceived) grieving and pre-planning. That resonates because I know someone who didn't seem to grieve when someone close to them died, and I hadn't really thought that it might have been because the illness was long and drawn out and that they might therefore have had a long time to think about it.
Not saying that is the situation for everyone in that situation, but might be some light to understanding a bit more the person I know.
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arse
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
Such sadness, such bravery and such wisdom in these posts…… after the Orlando event which has saddened our household (not directly, just diffusely) I am more than grateful and humbled to be in such company.
My spouse of 43 years and I are well aware of the aging process (70 and 67 years old respectively). Even though we both enjoy good health (or so we think), we have buried many relatives and friends over the past few years -- many older, some younger, some much younger. And so we have begun to talk about our own death and dying. This wasn’t planned, but simply bubbled up rather gently.
We know that when the time comes all thoughts of previous discussion may flee and seem trite, stupid, venal. But for now we at least name it and have chats about what the other would keep after our death, where to distribute prized possessions, giving permission along the way to let go of all plans, all possessions. And yes, about what treasure in our loving these many years. Most friends who hear of this think it morbid, save for one couple whose son died at age 3 some 20+years ago. But for us it is a gentle facing of what we suspect will be very difficult to bear. I think in some ways we do this to practice for the real event, or at least to name its reality. The grace and wisdom of others here can now be mingled with our own words: they have been true blessings. Thank you.
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Thanks all for your thoughts and the possible link between (perceived) grieving and pre-planning. That resonates because I know someone who didn't seem to grieve when someone close to them died, and I hadn't really thought that it might have been because the illness was long and drawn out and that they might therefore have had a long time to think about it.
Not saying that is the situation for everyone in that situation, but might be some light to understanding a bit more the person I know.
It's important, too, to remember that everyone grieves differently, and on their own timetable. Some are in shock (even when the deceased was ill for some time) and won't really start grieving until later. Some need to grieve very privately, and so won't say/do/show much publicly. Others need friends & loved ones around them to care for them, allow them to talk about their lost loved one. It's all very very unique and sacred. So I wouldn't assume your friend isn't grieving just because it's not obvious.
It makes it a bit fraught knowing how to care for them, but gentle questions ("would you like to go for coffee to talk?") seem to be the best way to go, then taking the cue from their response. And sometimes the time for that is 3, 6, 12 months after the death rather than immediately when there is so much to do and so many people around the grieving person.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Kierkegaard, eh? Why am I not surprised?
I went through a phase of thinking every night in bed "How would life be?" if each of our three children (in turn) were dead and no longer around. (This did not include HOW they had died or disappeared).
They must have been between 5 and 10 years old then.
Phase passed after a few months. Just as it came out of nowhere, it stopped for no reason.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It's possible to get an awful lot of grieving out of the way during a long terminal illness. When death finally comes, it is still horrible but the griever may be farther along in the process than others expect.
There are also people who do all their breaking down in private, and people who "hold it together" for quite a long time, often because they see it as necessary for one person in the family to handle matters like the funeral, will, etc. etc. etc.--and then go to pieces in some unusual and maybe not visible way a long time later. That happened to me with my father. His new wife and my siblings were all distraught and unable to cope with anything, including the cremation paperwork and decisions. As the oldest child, I figured it fell to me to do the necessary, and so I put emotion on hold (at a great cost) until a couple of months had passed. Then (once home and out of state) I took out the change in bad dreams for years.
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
On the OP--
I dwell far too much on the fleeting nature of life, and not a day goes by that I don't think about the possible losses that could happen. This might be the natural result of having a husband 20 years older than me and a ministry where we're exposed to most of the bad stuff that can happen to human beings on a regular basis. Or it could be just me. I hate it--it's very uncomfortable--but it's also probably responsible for me spending way more time and effort on my son, husband, etc. every day as I always fear I have so little time left.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
That resonates because I know someone who didn't seem to grieve when someone close to them died, and I hadn't really thought that it might have been because the illness was long and drawn out and that they might therefore have had a long time to think about it.
I have a friend whose husband died of Parkinson's disease. They had had a long and happy marriage, but during the last two years of his life, he was miserable all the time. Since she loved him, his misery affected her deeply. When he died, she felt relief.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Landlubber
Shipmate
# 11055
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Posted
L'organist, thank you for the openness of your post above, with which mine crossed yesterday.
Other posters have raised the way thoughts of the future impact on their present lives. I was reminded of the words of the traditional collect 'that ... we may so pass through things temporal that we lose not our hold on things eternal' but I think from this thread, I want to take away the importance of how we act now, including the words in the op 'keep us grateful for the things we have'.
Is there any mileage in 'compare and contrast' the two?
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They that go down to the sea in ships … reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man
Posts: 383 | From: On dry land | Registered: Feb 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
So the question I'm asking is whether you waste any time thinking about how you might react to a great loss - and that might not be a death but might be a house fire, loss of occupation, severe illness or whatever.
And if you have experienced any kind of loss, do you think thinking/dreaming about it beforehand was any help?
I'm thinking it probably is a waste of time in the sense that it probably doesn't help to prepare one for a sudden shock, but it might help to ground us and keep us grateful for the things we have.
I do think about it, yes, and I don't think it's a waste of time to think about it now and then, at least not for me. I don't process my emotions well, so being aware that losses will happen and they will be difficult is important for me to process. It doesn't completely prepare you, of course, and you can never know how you will respond, as it will be different each time, but it gives some kind of context, and also stops the idea of death being a terrible taboo that you can never talk about or think about.
The first time I had a bereavement was so completely confusing to me, and I had no understanding of the emotions I was feeling, and I thought there was something wrong with me. And then I read about the stages of grief, and it put it into some kind of context and helped it make a bit more sense of - not that the stages will be the same for everyone, but the fact that these are all feelings you can feel. And then the knowledge of how I responded to that bereavement helped a little with the next one.
So I do think about the possibility of losing people I love, and also of if I myself were to be dying. I think these things through, and obviously it can't prepare me, but it stops them being unthinkable things, and helps me see a wider context.
Maybe it's a bit similar to how, if you have an illness, it can be helpful to know about the future symptoms you might have, to be able to recognise them, even though it will never fully prepare you for what it will be like. Though maybe for some people they prefer to live in blissful ignorance and deal with things when they happen, and that might work better for some people, but for me it's important to face things and think them through.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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