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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ones who are sent
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
We have had some discussion of this on a Lutheran site I am interested in your experiences.
There have been many a time I think God has sent me as an angel to someone in distress. Several hitchhikers caught in the middle of snow storms. People who could not change the tires on their cars or could had dead batteries (one of these happened just a couple of weeks ago) A family stranded during a bitter cold night.
The most impressive one was when I was still a teenager. My dad and I had been hunting near our church camp. The camp closed after labor day in those days. When we came back our car battery was dead, so we had to hike about five miles to a cabin we new was occupied. When we got there and knocked on the door and the man of the cabin opened the door we could tell there had been an argument between him and his wife. Stony silence. But they agreed to help us out. We all got in their pick up and they drove us back to the church camp. They helped jump the car and followed us out to the main road. There the man flagged us down and asked about what the Lutheran church was all about. We gave witness and invited him to go to a nearby Lutheran church. There are tons of examples where God has used me as an angel.
I would dare say many of us have had these experiences.
What are your stories? What is your reaction?
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Have to say there have been far more instances of me being helped than the other way round, and I don't altogether know if those doing the helping were necessarily God fearing folk.
One occasion that comes to mind was the day of the Royal Wedding 1981. I was riding an old but trustworthy motorcycle a long long way from home when it developed a fault on the motorway, fortunately right by the exit slip road.
It was Shefield and I managed to find a quiet location, (everywhere was quiet outside of London that day), to look for the problem.
Didn't get to far into the engine to realise a piece operating the valves was broke. Evening was approaching and feeling of vulnerability crept over me. At this point a fellow pulled up on a motorcycle enquired of the predicament, then offered to take me back to his house and show me how to find the one shop in Inner Sheffield which would have the unusual component.
He and his wife showed every hospitality that evening. Both then got up early to go to work, leaving me breakfast, precise information on bus timetables, and the keys to lock up their own house!
Never saw them again, but still grateful to this day.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm atheist of that God. Except when I'm I a foxhole. He's even answered my prayers. While being mugged and in the matter of the dog that barked in the night and then didn't.
I'm grateful for His provision, whether He's that God or not.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
All unexpected acts of kindness are a good sign in a broken world. This kind of sign.
quote:
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."
Sure, I've had experiences of both giving and receiving such unexpected acts of kindness. When giving, it has sometimes seemed to me that there was an unexpected impulse.
Once when a part of the prayer ministry team at Soul Survivor, I had a a very strong impulse to leave my area of responsibility in a large hall and go to another area. I did that, pushed my way through a large crowd facing the other way, and found a man who had damaged his back in a fall on the approach steps. It was noisy, no one had noticed his cries of pain. Also he was about my age and in pain for other reasons. I got him some first aid, remained with him, arranged to see him the next day and prayed for those deeper needs.
Coincidence, God-incidence? I don't think it matters. It seems to be about a kind of preparedness to go out of your way.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Stroll on, IN a foxhole.
Aye B62, God CERTAINLY inspires kindness. And you gave me a frisson there!
I find following the impulse regardless and relentlessly and without limit when a direction opens up, as has in the past few days, without expectation and support from any others, remarkably energizing.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Because this is Purgatory, I'm going to say that I see a lot of risk in this line of thought. There are more people than we want to think about who didn't have an angel appear in a time of need. What do you say to them?
The point of the Good Samaritan isn't that God sent an angel to the man in need. It is that we are supposed to help those in need when we see them.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
The point of the Good Samaritan isn't that God sent an angel to the man in need. It is that we are supposed to help those in need when we see them.
Yes. Regardless of which people-group they belong to.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Absolutely Og, I've been weaned off that God even though in infantile moments I want Him to be there, to suspend the laws of physics for my personal convenience. I apply the rod of correction with:
“Christ has no body now on earth but yours,
no hands but yours,
no feet but yours,
Yours are the eyes through which to look out
Christ's compassion to the world
Yours are the feet with which he is to go about
doing good;
Yours are the hands with which he is to bless men now.”
― Teresa of Ávila
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Yes, we're brought together with other people at certain times by God's prompting, and yes we always help people and are kind to people we come across by chance who are in need.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Because this is Purgatory, I'm going to say that I see a lot of risk in this line of thought. There are more people than we want to think about who didn't have an angel appear in a time of need. What do you say to them?
Not everyone listens to God's prompting, or acts upon it.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I like the term God-incidence.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I don't! I much prefer the three thousand year orthodoxy of time and chance happen to ... all.
How does God prompt? Beyond life putting need in our faces? Beyond our sensitized consciences, our heightened sense of injustice?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
It's discerned knowing, Martin, confirmed so often as to affirm the discernment.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The events happen. I've seen it too many times to disagree. But of course there are cases where nothing happens, and if I were God, well.... And in a couple of cases I've spoken to people who told me they thought God wanted them to do something about that need, but they just couldn't be arsed. Which makes me wonder how often that happens, too.
It's a mystery.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
If that's transpersonal, supernatural, magic - whether the discernment or 'these events' - I cannot and never will experience it or perceive it in any way.
[ 31. July 2016, 23:10: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If that's transpersonal, supernatural, magic - whether the discernment or 'these events' - I cannot and never will experience it or perceive it in any way.
Never say never. Just look at where you've come to in your faith. Would you have guessed ten years ago that you'd believe what you believe now? Maybe this "magic" stuff happens all the time with you, but since it doesn't fit in with your current theology you don't perceive it. (Or maybe it doesn't happen. Shrug.)
The Spirit blows where it will.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
I can't get over a few things.
Sometimes, random, horrible things happen to people. If you told a person who had suffered one of those traumas that sometimes God sends people to help, they would want to know why God didn't send someone to them. And if you say then that maybe the person couldn't discern the call, they'd still wonder what kind of God this is.
My wife is not a Christian, and this hits on one of her biggest problems with it. She has seen people act in moments of crisis without needing anything other than their own goodness. I think that religion helps us recognize needs that we might not otherwise notice. But plenty of people do good without prompting. Jesus doesn't mention the Samaritan being prompted.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I am one of those people. I am also one who has seen tgese kinds of sendings. That's why I call it a mystery. Why this time and not that time? I'm the same person.
There are some mysteries I have to live with.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
I can think of a number of times when I felt I was used to help someone.
I once preached a sermon and afterward a women said, " I want you to know that today when you said, XY and Z. you gave me the answer to a question I had held in prayer for many weeks." I am very sure that I never said anything along the lines of XY and Z. She heard not what I said, but what she needed to hear. I feel perhaps this happens more often then we know. At least I hope so.
I once was out driving in my car and for some strange reason I felt compelled to stop at a store I had never seen before. I did not need anything and was just looking around when to make a long story short I saw an older women that I knew needed some money. I spoke to her gave her some cash and then knew it was fine for me to leave. I have never been back to that store although I pass it every month or so.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I understand your wife's arguments, Og. My experience clashed with some aspects of my own understanding as well. It was a most unlikely sequence of events with a beneficial outcome.
In the Samaritan story, which is intended to be illustrative, not documentary, what is unlikely in his preparedness to help? He was simply in the right place at the right time with the right attitude. That's just coincidence. The extra unlikely dimension is him showing compassion and providing practical help despite the cultural barrier.
What still puzzles me about my own experience was the strong, non-rational, impulse to move to another place. Normally I don't do things like that. As it happened it turned out very well for someone else. But maybe there was someone in the area of responsibility I left who was also in need of help?
I don't know the answer to those questions. Subjectively, it felt like a sending. Objectively it remains a mystery. In faith I regard it as one of my sheep-like experiences. I'm glad it happened.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Someone I knew professionally, and for whom I had huge respect, died in her forties. Far too young. On the day of her funeral my daughter woke up vomiting, so I couldn't go to the funeral as I had to stay at home to look after her. There was a collection at the funeral for a third-world charity, and so I decided to post a donation to it.
As I didn't have internet then I looked for the address of the charity amongst leaflets in our church vestibule the following Sunday. Someone asked what I was looking for, and told me that she knew somebody who was planning to go to India with that charity. This person was about to start fundraising. She gave me her address and I posted off a cheque with a covering letter explaining why I wanted to support this charity and saying that I was pleased that her trip gave me the opportunity to do so.
At no point did I feel prompted by God.
However, the woman to whom I had sent my cheque had been having cold feet. She had to fundraise to cover her flights to and from India. At that point only her friends knew, and she was worried that when she started fund raising publicly some people might object to paying for her flights, might think this was some form of holiday. Perhaps a wealthier person who could cover their own costs should go? So she prayed to God for a sign and the next morning, there on her mat was a cheque from a complete stranger and a letter saying that this stranger was pleased to have the opportunity to support the trip.
I really don't know what to make of this. If it was God at work, I'd rather it hadn't involved my small daughter vomiting all over her bedclothes on the morning of the funeral and spending a miserable day with a sore tummy.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I think synchronicities, "miracles" (whatever they are), helpful strangers, etc. sometimes happen. And some people make a point of doing "random acts of kindness", being aware, doing good deeds, and just generally being helpful. Religion doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it.
But there are bad versions of all those things, too. I have no trouble with full-fledged miracles--except that they don't seem to happen nearly often enough. And anti-miracles (like being in exactly the wrong place when something falls) happen, too. And then there's the whole matter of theodicy--why God lets bad things happen.
I've been both receiver and doer, generally in small ways, for the good side of it. But I've also had long stretches of very bad luck. Everything went wrong, no matter what I did, and no one would help. Very wearying and wearing. And, of course, it's possible that I was a random act of unkindness to people. Sometimes, it wasn't so random.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I don't know how it all works, or why. I try to do good in small ways, and also to avoid unkindness. (Note "try".) Hopefully, it makes a little bit of a difference.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's all looking for unnecessary supernatural explanations for grains of wheat in blizzards of chaff. For me. NO claims will ever work for me. Including mine. And I've made them and they're good. But CANNOT be valid.
I'm EXTREMELY grateful for God's provision in my story, that in my utterly, truly random, free LIFE in Him my yearning reflects His, my stretched hand maps on His over an immeasurable gulf.
I LOVE the film Stigmata. God . does . not . behave . that . way. Ever. He NEVER has. He never will. But we want Him to! We want Him to be randomly capricious in a way that that is invisible, that makes no difference, that convinces no one but the credulous and motivates NOTHING in terms of universal social justice. And that's been me.
There is NO evidence for God but Jesus. And the impact of His story. No one is sent. And I can and will say never. Not as a challenge to God. Even though I prayed like a three year old tonight in a minute of desperate weakness to stick around for my wife.
When are we going to grow up kiddies? If God is intervening in your life by magic, sending you and others to you, please keep it to yourself, it insults the 99.9999% who are suffering time and chance in faith.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
When are we going to grow up kiddies? If God is intervening in your life by magic, sending you and others to you, please keep it to yourself, it insults the 99.9999% who are suffering time and chance in faith.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Everything you've said about "none of this happens" is pure assertion. So is a lot of what I say, but I'm not exhorting everybody else to shut up on pain of insulting people.
We speak what we know. I speak from my experience, you speak from yours. If they don't match up (as mine assuredly does not with Mr Cheesy), well, we can agree to disagree. But to tell me and those with experiences like mine to shut up because we are insulting people--feh. Who made you spokesman for the human race?
If you personally feel insulted by me, that's another matter, and we can talk that one through. But don't go trying to take the moral high ground by speaking on behalf of "9.9999% who are suffering time and chance in faith" (as if that didn't include me and those like me, too.).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
If God is real, if Christianity is real, than to have a mature faith, we need to reckon with both those experiences, because both are true. We have experiences of what looks like amazing intervention when we seem certain that God is at work... but we also have experiences of aching silence when we cry out again and again and again, and hear nothing.
I've come to lean into Open Theism as the best way to comprehend both those things, but it's clearly not everyone's cup of tea. But any theology that isn't big enough to encompass both those things is nothing more than make-believe, imho.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
LC and Martin--
Two sides of the same problem.
If you credit God's help and rescue (like disaster survivors who say on TV that God saved them, but don't talk about the people God let die), whether publicly or to a suffering individual, you can hurt people who didn't/don't get that kind of help, and their loved ones.
If you say, publicly or to a suffering individual, that God doesn't ever help or intervene, no way, no how, and we should all just grow up, then you may hurt them and take away the only fragile thread of hope they've got.
AND that's not aimed at either of you, just at the ideas and practice. ISTM that a little sensitivity and compassion, before, while, and after speaking up, can help a lot.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Echoing others: I think it is hopeful thinking, but loose thinking, that allows people to interpret their experiences of events as tangible, real world, divine intervention. God may well, through others (again as others have well noted). provide great succour and comfort. But comfort. The real work of the world must be done by people.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
cliffdweller--
Open Theism is the one where God/Universe learns, grows, and makes mistakes?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
It happened again.
This morning.
I am preparing to return to work after a two week absence. However, personnel said they had yet to get the doctor's release (no big surprise, I work for a very big company that has a very complicated bureaucracy)
I actually wore clothing that would say I was a member of the staff of the store where I work.
I was going out to my vehicle. As usual, and as expected at the store, I greeted every one I saw.
I greeted on man who obviously was distraught We spoke for a few minutes. Apparently he had gotten some bad news from his physician. He found out he was terminal. As I listened to his story, I asked him if he needed any support. He declined, but he appreciated me listening to him and offering any assistance.
This man is a regular at our store. I hope to keep in contact with him.
But I went away thinking this was a God moment again.
These situations are open to interpretation, I know. It depends on your belief system.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
A few days ago I met a student who had got mixed up between train station platforms and got on the train leaving 5 minutes after the one he had an advance ticket for. He was going to the right place but didn't have a valid ticket anymore.
He was confronted by a ticket inspector who applied the rules and asked for >£100. The student had not enough and was going to be dumped mid-way on his journey with no real means of getting home.
Someone on the carriage said they had a tenner if that would help and pretty soon more than half the cash had been found and the student paid the rest. He was quite tearful just recounting the episode.
It was collective action but I'm sure it was inspired somehow.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
An incident which sticks with me. A few years ago a lady came up to me in the street, asking for some money etc. Now this happens all the time, and while I do help people as I can, there’s no way anyone could help all of them so one necessarily ends up saying no rather often. Nonetheless on this occasion, I felt very strongly that I should give her a meal ticket (I prefer to give these to cash because they can only be exchanged for food). As soon as I pulled it out I saw a look of palpable relief on her face and she thanked me effusively, telling me I’d saved her life. It was clear that the lady literally had *nothing* to eat.
Was it the prompting of the Holy Spirit? Possibly. If I hadn’t given her anything, I never would have known how much trouble she was in, after all. On the other hand, it’s one of those situations where I couldn’t really have done anything wrong. If the lady hadn’t been starving, it’s not like it would have been a bad thing to do. I don’t think you can really go wrong being kind to people.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
cliffdweller--
Open Theism is the one where God/Universe learns, grows, and makes mistakes?
That's Process, but Open Theism is closely related. Both are interested in the problem of theodicy-- the question of suffering that really is behind the OP. It's obviously an old question with a lot of different answers, I happen to like Open Theism's approach better than Process-- and better than classic theism.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I get thinking all Elect and Damned with threads like this.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
God turns everything on its head. The more any one of us is given, the more is required of us, especially humility. And so, it is not about elected or rejected, more about some asses being given greater burdens than others to carry. This applies to all of God's gifts. God's ways are not our ways.
If we are conscious that we are being sent out, prompted to do or say something, we have to set aside our own desires and fears if we are going ahead, and be ready to feel very foolish on the occasions, especially early on, when we are following our own imaginations.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
W Hyatt. So the compassion isn't mine?
Graven Image. I like the first story. We hear what we want to. But not the second : ) Not that I doubt it at all. It's still amenable to rational scrutiny. It's written after the event in hindsight, therefore the beginning is coloured by the end. This a store in your neighbourhood that you share with the poor older woman that you know as such. What kind of store? What time of day? A food store? Before lunch? Once in a whole lifteime? If I walk in to town I'd be VERY surprised if I didn't meet a vulnerable person I know. So, no magic necessary there!
Baranabas62. You too are allowed one random confluence , of events in a lifetime, even with a funny feeling in it. The next time I have a funny feeling, a strong non-rational impulse - and I NEVER have them or rather when I do, which is often, they're NEVER borne out - you'll be among the first to know if by chance it randomly, spookily matches with a need. As this happens to Muslims and atheists and Wiccans too, does the Spirit shine on everybody once in a lifetime?
North East Quine. God hurts a little girl to a encourage a woman to spend a a grand to go to India?
Golden Key 1 +1 + -1 = ...
Lamb Chopped. Of course you don't insult me. It's only rhetoric dear.
cliffdweller. God is hyper-real. Truth is personal, totally subjective. No claims are true for me, including mine. I don't see how that makes my theology any more make-believe than yours.
Golden Key 2 I would NEVER hurt a little one, despite the fact that they are being fed constantly in their dependency on magic that never happens, by second rate and lower 'theology'. I wouldn't hurt a big one either, here. If I am they must say or anyone must on their behalf or if that's perceived. I'm always MOST careful to be inclusive of little ones, to hold them up whilst not just echoing or rubber stamping their infantile beliefs, whilst all around do. That's my calling and gift. Funnily enough those that reinforce the infantilism like it. I have never found it necessary to tear down, to destroy infantile faith whilst being true to mine.
Gramps49. Every moment is.
mdijon. Aye, by comapssion. Human decency. Far more inspiring than magic.
la vie en rouge. PERFECT. Thank God.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
cliffdweller. God is hyper-real. Truth is personal, totally subjective. No claims are true for me, including mine. I don't see how that makes my theology any more make-believe than yours.
um... did I ever accuse you of having make-believe theology????
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
God turns everything on its head. The more any one of us is given, the more is required of us, especially humility. And so, it is not about elected or rejected, more about some asses being given greater burdens than others to carry. This applies to all of God's gifts. God's ways are not our ways.
If we are conscious that we are being sent out, prompted to do or say something, we have to set aside our own desires and fears if we are going ahead, and be ready to feel very foolish on the occasions, especially early on, when we are following our own imaginations.
I am thinking of being on the receiving and non-receiving end of these things. Which can turn things on its head perhaps more than we'd imagine. To the point of deconstructing Christianity....
Omniscience would necessarily involve understanding the consequences of some actions/nonactions, not responding. Thus God must know that random acts of violence or other that cause intense suffering with God,angels etc undetectable in the midst of, might challenge faith to the point of rejection of God entirely. God's plan may be deconstruction of organized church-based religion completely(?)
Though humans as we are, we are resilient and can accommodate to nearly anything; the accommodation I've seen up close is to reject most any form of active intervention in our lives and the world. Except through the actions of other humans - who may reject Christianity as orthodoxly constituted entirely as noted previously in this thread. Such that Jesus is demoted to being a good example and a teacher, as well as willing to die for his ideas. The wisdom of which becomes debatable.
[ 02. August 2016, 22:23: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
Martin 60 wrote quote:
Graven Image. I like the first story. We hear what we want to. But not the second : ) Not that I doubt it at all. It's still amenable to rational scrutiny. It's written after the event in hindsight, therefore the beginning is coloured by the end. This a store in your neighbourhood that you share with the poor older woman that you know as such. What kind of store? What time of day? A food store? Before lunch? Once in a whole lifteime? If I walk in to town I'd be VERY surprised if I didn't meet a vulnerable person I know. So, no magic necessary there!
Store was not in my neighborhood, it was about 10 miles away. I had never seen the women before in my life nor did I ever see her again. It was a grocery store, and to be honest I do not remember the time of day, it was a number of years ago. I was on my way home from a medical appointment. I did see the women counting and recounting her money, and she looked distressed. I walked up to her and handed her some money and said, "I believe you must have dropped this." She said, "God bless you," and I walked away. I did not need anything at the store and not my regular neighborhood market. Indeed it could all be explained as chance. We will never know.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
W Hyatt. So the compassion isn't mine?
Sure it is. It's God's gift to us to use however we want. But it's not something we can create by our own effort.
We can make ourselves behave compassionately, but we cannot make ourselves compassionate - only God can do that. Or so I believe.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Magically?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Graven Image. Thank you for the fuller picture and correction of my misunderstanding through failure to attend to detail, I read, 'I saw an older women that I knew' and that had overwhelming impact. How appropriate! For how we perceive and narrate. We'll never know rationally why you stopped, it had flowed on before you did. But it wasn't a miracle for me. It wasn't divine intervention for me. Until it incontrovertibly is, until the laws of physics, of time and chance are overruled for me, in the resurrection, it NEVER will be.
I helplessly await the greatest possible miracle of universal social justice similarly. I'm not interested in anything far, far less.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So experience and stories change us. Change our character. That is magical. The Spirit yearns WITH our spirit. Reality roots for us. It - He - cannot do more. MUST not do more. More diminishes everyone concerned. Didn't He do enough 2000 years ago? Without quenching a smoking reed.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
Long ago, even when I was still a believer and an active priest, I discovered that good people did good things and evil people did bad things, regardless of their religious beliefs. They may try to cloak them in their stated belief, but when it came down to it, they mostly like would have done the same things no matter what their belief or disbelief.
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My cooking blog: http://inthekitchenwithdon.blogspot.com/
Posts: 480 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So, teddybear, the good were good and the bad were bad, the good never did bad and the bad never did good and the balance over life didn't shift?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I am thinking of being on the receiving and non-receiving end of these things. Which can turn things on its head perhaps more than we'd imagine. To the point of deconstructing Christianity....
Omniscience would necessarily involve understanding the consequences of some actions/nonactions, not responding. Thus God must know that random acts of violence or other that cause intense suffering with God,angels etc undetectable in the midst of, might challenge faith to the point of rejection of God entirely. God's plan may be deconstruction of organized church-based religion completely(?)
Though humans as we are, we are resilient and can accommodate to nearly anything; the accommodation I've seen up close is to reject most any form of active intervention in our lives and the world. Except through the actions of other humans - who may reject Christianity as orthodoxly constituted entirely as noted previously in this thread. Such that Jesus is demoted to being a good example and a teacher, as well as willing to die for his ideas. The wisdom of which becomes debatable.
De- constructing any Christianity that is not based on the bullying, mockery, beating and crucifixion of Christ, followed by the resurrection, perhaps. Where was God in that event? I would say at the centre, allowing people their free will choice to reject him, to go another way.
If we close our minds to the possibilities of God's intervention because it is unthinkable that God wouldn't intervene, does this mean that for us only God's direct intervention in the form of the second coming and heaven on earth becoming established is good enough for us?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It is the position opposite that: firm belief that God abandoned them, and if they are to maintain belief at all in God, to understand that God doesn't intervene, thus didn't abandon. Present only to suffer with and support us, at the very most.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Excellent no... non-intervention except in Jesus has nothing to do with abandonment. We were never abandoned in the first place.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
I was riding an old but trustworthy motorcycle a long long way from home when it developed a fault on the motorway, fortunately right by the exit slip road.
I enjoyed Rolyn's story (you broke a rocker arm on...what? ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ), because it reminded me of a few of my own - nothing like shit bikes and no mobile or breakdown cover to get us praying. I spent 3 days this week with my kids at the house of a couple who rescued me in very similar circumstances (MZ clutch taper - no keyway, what a silly design), 20 years ago. I think I'm their token Christian friend who still likes shit bikes.
More powerfully, I was sat in the pub on my own after another big row with the wife. An old fella sat by me, on purpose, and tried to make conversation. I grunted a bit and went back to the paper. He tried again, and after a while we got talking. He was really interesting - Irish-speaking immigrant, worked in mining, lots of interesting stories. As I planned to leave for some reason I asked him what was in his plastic bag; he looked embarrassed, made some excuse about being a bit 'old-school', and pulled out a bible. So we got talking again, and he ended up praying for me in the middle of the pub. It was totally weird, moving, unexpected and not repeated. I never saw him again, and thinking back it all feels to me like something to do with angels.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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