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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The illegitimacy (or otherwise) of manipulation
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
On the Tony Anthony thread, there has been some discussion of manipulation. Mark Wuntoo posted and then replied to a reply to his previous post, thus: quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Took me right back to the 50's and Billy Graham. Councellors placed strategically so that when the 'appeal' was made they began walking forward, thus encouraging others to follow - thousands responding to Christ, or so it seemed.
You are missing the organ that repeatedly plays 'Just as I am' (accompanying the crying of the repentant to encourage more people to come forward).
Ah, yes, the power of music (and not just the 45 minutes on your feet at the start of a charismatic meeting). I have to hold my hand up - I was a little manipulative this morning from the seat of my keyboard. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Good organists are aware of what they hold in their fingers.
It seems to me that some practices are blatantly, deliberately, and abusively manipulative, as have been alluded to in that thread.
At the same time, it seems to me that there's some element of manipulation in all relationships, all the more so in gatherings. If I'm moved by a film or a concert, have I been "manipulated"?
I'm finding it hard to imagine a religious service which, somewhere along the line, doesn't lend itself to a possible charge of "manipulation".
Is "manipulation" always wrong? What precisely makes it wrong? Could it ever be solely in the eye of the beholder? Can it ever be incontrovertibly more than that?
[ 14. August 2016, 13:39: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm not answering this - but I do recall attending a charismatic Anglican church some years ago in which I felt very manipulated. However I am sure that those leading the service weren't in the slightest bit aware of what they were doing - it was just the way they had learned to do things. (I should have said something afterwards but [a] I didn't know them all that well and [b] I was about to move out of the area anyway).
Having said this, any worship leader is surely manipulative to an extent, especially in Nonconformist circles where they can design the entire liturgy. So am I, when leading, hoping to get the congregation thinking in certain directions? Of course. Am I being abusive? I very much hope not - and this is signified by times in the sermon when I will say, "It seems to me that ..." or "You may disagree, but ...".
[ 14. August 2016, 13:53: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
But isn't even a traditional Anglican service manipulative? The way people face, the positioning, the liturgy and its wording, all reinforce expected roles and beliefs. People high up the candle will rave about bells and smells, and yes Mark Wuntoo, good organ music, but rarely does one hear a charge of manipulation. Why is that?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
For many people, if not most, it is only manipulation if they disagree with the message.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
The sermon this morning was, in part, about encouraging one another towards Christian maturity. It could be put like this, I suppose: 'I know what Christian maturity is and, in order to move towards that maturity, I encourage you to ...... '.
Encouraging and manipulating are closely allied, it seems to me. A difficult path to tread.
When I said that 'Good organists are aware of what they hold in their fingers' I was thinking that they have the power to influence the congregational singing, amongst other things. For example, an organist will follow the words of a hymn and express them in ways he/she thinks appropriate. Surely a good thing. Surely a necessary thing, I think. Up to a point! One of this morning's songs had a verse about the death of Christ. It would have been entirely appropriate (IMO) to change from the major key to the minor for that single verse (and would have been very effective) but the congregational could not be expected to cope so it didn't happen. I had to be content with playing the verse at a much slower speed (although I ran into difficulties when I suddenly returned to much greater speed!). That could have been described as 'manipulation', although I would defend it in terms of an attempt to 'lift' the congregation / to take note of the words / to express the words more effectively. I hope that it was seen as 'encouragement'. Let alone what it meant to me ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
But isn't even a traditional Anglican service manipulative? The way people face, the positioning, the liturgy and its wording, all reinforce expected roles and beliefs. People high up the candle will rave about bells and smells, and yes Mark Wuntoo, good organ music, but rarely does one hear a charge of manipulation. Why is that?
Some good organists probably rely on the fact that congregations don't realise they are being manipulated. And perhaps some members of congregations realise but rather like it.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Years ago one of our children went to a summer camp and came back with fears that she would go to hell. The chaplain frightened the children into "giving their hearts to Jesus" and did the whole thunderbolts and hellfire BS. This sort of thing can be child abuse, and the stuff of cults.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
To an extent, anything written or spoken has 'designs' on the reader or the hearer. We can't avoid that.
The issue to me is whether there is a deliberate attempt to manipulate or to undermine people's critical faculties. So, for instance, I'm sure I wouldn't find any of Baptist Trainfan's sermons manipulative, particularly when he is careful to use caveats such as, 'It seems to me ...' or 'Can we not conclude ...' and so on.
I have to say that most Baptist preachers I've come across are pretty good that way and don't tend to lay things on too thickly. They'll certainly have a view but the most skillful preachers will make that apparent whilst leaving other options open for their hearers to consider or take away. I know some Baptist ministers who are excellent at doing that.
I've sometimes wondered whether bells and smells and clouds of incense are 'manipulative' in some way - but the conclusion I've reached there is that the effects are more subliminal ... which may be taken to imply a degree of unconscious manipulation.
I think the difference is, though, that in a high-octane bells and smells, clouds of incense and flickering candles atmosphere, the participants know that it's something of a performance. They aren't operating under the illusion that it's all orchestrated in some mysterious way by God the Holy Spirit - however pneumatic they believe the liturgy to be (and yes, they do believe it to be pneumatic) their theology allows room for it to be synergistic ...
I like the phrase you get in some RC and Anglican liturgies which runs along the following lines, 'Lord we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands ...' and it's equivalent phrase for the breaking of the bread.
Why? Because it explicitly acknowledges that there's a natural process going on as well as something deeply spiritually significant.
It's one of these both/and things I keep banging on about ...
I accept Baptist Trainfan's point about it being possible to be unconsciously or subconciously manipulative and I've certainly experienced that myself. These people aren't coldly and cynically calculating that if we do X, Y and Z we will achieve such and such an effect or achieve so and so a result ... but it is learned behaviour nevertheless.
Ultimately, we must all exercise our own nouse (not 'mouse' as I typed on another post! Although that applies too ... )
It's like films, novels and anything else - we know when we're being 'got at' or if the producer/director is laying things on thick in terms of the weepie factor and so on ... and there's a place for that. We aren't robots.
I suspect we'll all draw the line in different places depending on our own experiences, backgrounds and personality types etc etc etc.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
I'm finding it hard to imagine a religious service which, somewhere along the line, doesn't lend itself to a possible charge of "manipulation".
This idea worries me personally - not that I preach, but I have considered it.
I used to be a lecturer (engineering), and to start with I was scrupulous about pointing out all the holes in what I was talking about, as I went along. The students hated it.
Later I developed more confidence and a technique (which I hope was not cynical, though may have sometimes been lazy, and certainly was more effective) whereby I promoted a way of thinking about something which claimed to be complete - and only later (and sometimes!) returned to discuss its shortcomings.
In teaching, I think my main role was to lend the group (literally, 'lend') confidence - that the subject was penetrable, and that there was a good chance of the group 'getting it'. I thought I was succeeding, when that happened.
I can think of preachers who have a similar effect on me - they lend me the confidence that a Faith which I find inspiring, is possible. But I would be very worried of setting this up myself in the kind of way I used to do it in the classroom - because I fear it would be actively manipulative. Yet those were the fears I started with in teaching, and subsequently got over. I dunno. Can experienced preachers here identify with any of that?
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's like films, novels and anything else - we know when we're being 'got at' or if the producer/director is laying things on thick in terms of the weepie factor and so on ... and there's a place for that. We aren't robots.
Except that we kinda are. Films work because they manipulate our genetic and cultural programming.
One can consciously understand the mechanism and still be affected and influenced.
[ 14. August 2016, 16:43: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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guthrum
Shipmate
# 8446
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Posted
Agree with Gamaliel, on the whole I think people mostly know when they are being 'got at' and cynical manipulation is rare. But.... I think it is possible to inadvertently cross the line between what might be described as creating the circumstances in which a particular response is possible and helping things along a little too much. Sadly, in my experience, once that line is crossed worse things start to happen.
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Teekeey Misha
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# 18604
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Posted
"Manipulative" is such a loaded word that it's difficult for anyone to accept.
If we strip it of its negative connotation, then I'm all in favour of manipulation (especially if I'm the subject.) I, like everyone else on the planet, am a human being. We are all subjects (whether we realise it or not) and we are all objects (whether we realise it or not.) It might be nice for us to pretend otherwise, but it's not realistic.
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by guthrum:
Agree with Gamaliel, on the whole I think people mostly know when they are being 'got at' and cynical manipulation is rare.
This is silly, though. There is a multi-billion £/$ industry that makes that money in direct contradiction to your statement. Called advertising. And everyone will tell you how they understand how it works whilst clad in all the latest.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Only one more letter change to go G! Mute it baby, mute it!
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Love wins
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guthrum
Shipmate
# 8446
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by guthrum:
Agree with Gamaliel, on the whole I think people mostly know when they are being 'got at' and cynical manipulation is rare.
This is silly, though. There is a multi-billion £/$ industry that makes that money in direct contradiction to your statement. Called advertising. And everyone will tell you how they understand how it works whilst clad in all the latest.
I was speaking about the church context, rather than society in general. Perhaps I should have said relatively rare.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by guthrum:
Agree with Gamaliel, on the whole I think people mostly know when they are being 'got at' and cynical manipulation is rare. But.... I think it is possible to inadvertently cross the line between what might be described as creating the circumstances in which a particular response is possible and helping things along a little too much. Sadly, in my experience, once that line is crossed worse things start to happen.
Maybe motivation is the thing?
If we are being 'manipulated' but the one/s doing it are doing it out of love and with genuine care not to hurt us then that's pretty much OK, I think.
But, in an atmosphere of love and trust a cynical manipulator could wheedle in and cause havoc. I have seen it happen.
"Wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" comes to mind.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Films work because they manipulate our genetic and cultural programming.
One can consciously understand the mechanism and still be affected and influenced.
Yes, and I find that a film can tug at my emotions in a way which real-life events rarely do - even though I know I'm being manipulated and try not to be.
In this respect my wife is a Better Person than I am.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by guthrum:
I was speaking about the church context, rather than society in general. Perhaps I should have said relatively rare.
It is not rare at all, anywhere.
Part of the problem, IMO, is the often negative connotation of the word. Manipulation feels bad when in truth it is neutral in its basic definition.
'to manage or utilize skillfully'
Another problem is that people generally do not care to think they do anything without thought or under influence. we prefer to think we have complete control. The reality is, though we have free will, we utilise it far less than we often think.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
We are influenced all of the time, and some who know how to pull psychological and emotional strings do it often. Is it leadership? Is it harmful or harmless manipulation? I suggest that only vulnerable and/or ignorant people are those being manipulated. Those who are aware of what is happening but allow it are also able to shun it.
<possible tangent> There is another kind of manipulation, which is to set laws which manipulate others. It seems to me that those aware of it rebel, in the end. Nobody likes to think that they are being told by others what they must or must not do, unless they can see a good reason for it <end of tangent>
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I work with words, and so I usually think of this as the difference between cynical manipulation and proper use of rhetoric.
There is a proper use of rhetoric--when you are attempting to move people, for their own good, in a direction you yourself are wholeheartedly committed to and subject yourself to as well. For instance, fire alarms. These are made to sound unnerving (plus lots of flashing strobe lights, etc.) precisely in order to manipulate people out of the burning building ASAP. I'm all in favor of as effective "rhetoric"/manipulation in this circumstance as possible.
A lesser example would be toothbrushing. I know of no parents who do NOT use every trick of rhetoric they can think of to get their kids to adopt this alien practice. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
In the case of the church, if someone is preaching the Gospel who is wholeheartedly committed to it him/herself, and who is willingly and totally subjected to it him/herself--well, pull out all the stops, baby. I'm good with that, even if it's 70 verses of "just as I am". Don't LIE, of course--cook up fake miracles or whatever--but that would be ruled out anyway by "totally subjected to it him/herself," because one cannot be a cynical liar and a sincere believer at the same time. The two are incompatible, and the rot will take over astonishingly quickly.
This is why I just can't cope with a pastor who does not believe what he/she is saying. Nor a teacher, nor a leader of any sort. If you're not there personally with what you're communicating, shut up and sit down. It's what I do when I'm in situations where I can't agree with the message. Either that or oppose it.
(Note: I'm not talking about doubt or confusion. Those things happen to everybody, Christian or atheist or what have you. I'm talking about a settled firm opinion.)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Gamaliel: These people aren't coldly and cynically calculating that if we do X, Y and Z we will achieve such and such an effect or achieve so and so a result ... but it is learned behaviour nevertheless.
Indeed. There was a tremendous amount of learned behaviour (and manipulation) in the Toronto thing. Just before that 'spontaneously' appeared I was researching a number of 'New Churches' and found that a lot of 'empowerment' was going on (often through manipulative processes IMO) - but that when a member of the congregation began to 'threaten' the leadership because they had become more confident and wanted to exercise spiritual gifts, for example, through their empowerment, a lot of enfeeblement began, often by marginalising the person. In all, I saw that as manipulative.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I work with words, and so I usually think of this as the difference between cynical manipulation and proper use of rhetoric.
There is a proper use of rhetoric--when you are attempting to move people, for their own good, in a direction you yourself are wholeheartedly committed to and subject yourself to as well.
I'm not sure I necessarily think that there is much of a difference in kind - at least in practice. Some of these movements have been genuinely led by people who were completely sold on the delusion they themselves were peddling.
Perhaps in this context Plato's description of rhetoric as 'pharmakon' is apposite.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Oh yes, absolutely Mark Wuntoo. That was certainly my experience on the inside.4
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I was recently in conversation with an acquaintance regarding the mainstream media and their 'approach' to a certain Mr Jeremy Corbyn.
Apparently, out of everyone, my acquaintance alone was able to pick the threads of truth out of the whole cloth of spin: so wise and perspicacious were they, and so utterly inured to the wiles of the media that their propaganda had no affect on him whatsoever.
I didn't at the time suggest this was the Dunning-Kruger effect played out in glorious technicolour, because I actually like the bloke, but to my mind (given we were both writers, and manipulating emotions is our day job), his assertion was purest bollocks.
So yes. Music especially seems to tunnel straight past conscious thought into the emotional seat of our psyche, but all art and human artifice is designed to manipulate our emotions and hence our responses. It's just a question of whether we use that power for good or ill.
It is, I'd argue, a significant and universal part of being human. As such, it has to, in some way, reflect the mind of the Creator.
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Forward the New Republic
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I broadly agree with Teekee Misha and Lilbuddha. If I "talk down" an aggressive inmate, that's manipulation - but hopefully with a view to the best for all parties. I maintain that however your church lays out its chairs, it's designed to elicit a certain behaviour. And so on.
I think a part of it is definitely whether there's a deliberate attempt to deceive. Unconscious manipulation might be less culpable but ultimately more damaging. Self-deception is something else again. Much food for thought...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think a part of it is definitely whether there's a deliberate attempt to deceive. Unconscious manipulation might be less culpable but ultimately more damaging. Self-deception is something else again. Much food for thought...
The problem is that all three can, and often do, exist together. A charismatic leader aware of what they are doing, coupled with a number of self-deluded people who are unconsciously aping behavior that has the same effect.
I would accept what 'Doc Tor' said in his last post, but I wonder if post-fall some of these things have end up having a power over us that is in some way Angelic.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Woah. Care to unpack that idea?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What's this fall that we're post?
[ 14. August 2016, 21:31: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Do do your homework Martin.
[fixed disaster]
[ 14. August 2016, 21:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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guthrum
Shipmate
# 8446
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I broadly agree with Teekee Misha and Lilbuddha. If I "talk down" an aggressive inmate, that's manipulation - but hopefully with a view to the best for all parties. I maintain that however your church lays out its chairs, it's designed to elicit a certain behaviour. And so on.
I think a part of it is definitely whether there's a deliberate attempt to deceive. Unconscious manipulation might be less culpable but ultimately more damaging. Self-deception is something else again. Much food for thought...
Motivation is important but so is transparency of purpose. If you are engaged in talking down an aggressive inmate they can probably see what it is your trying to do, at least afterwards in retrospect. In talking with them afterwards you would likely be open about trying to avoid a physical confrontation. The whole episode has the possibility to build trust that you have their best interests at heart.
Were your interaction with them to be something that at face value had the the appearance of an effort to calm the situation, but in fact was a distraction so that someone else could approach from behind and subdue them with a taser, then that would likely damage the prospects of trust between you in future.
In a church setting, if the person leading worship or designing liturgy is doing so to create a sense of calm at some point or to send people out on a high, that is probably fairly obvious to most people if they think about what is happening and how they feel. If asked why do we do this or that during worship, I would hope that those responsible would explain why.
Where I have seen things go awry it has been when a particular set of behaviours have been labelled as indicating God at work and on the instructions of a leader people have deceptively acted out those behaviours in a pre planned way in order to try to convince others of God's activity. The purpose in the case I witnessed was to try to change people's beliefs and worship style to one that matched that of a small group who believed doing so would bring success in the form of attracting others of a similar mind to the church.
It was a crude attempt doomed to failure. Those who discovered what was going on lost trust in the leadership and likely gained the impression that a particular spirituality is fake. I'm not sure how those in the group involved in the deception fared. How does it go when you profess belief that God is acting through you in a particular way when you are shown that at least sometimes it is fakery?
Motivation matters, being open about purpose matters and being very careful that actions can be explained in a way that build trust IMHO make a degree of what we might call manipulation OK. This kind of thing (definition from Wikipedia) is harmful; Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the behavior or perception of others through abusive, deceptive, or underhanded tactics Link
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by guthrum:
Motivation is important but so is transparency of purpose.
That's a good point.
In my current church setting I certainly place a high value on explanation, and on giving people the tools to analyse things for themselves.
However I think that in some charismatic circles especially transparency of purpose is not enough. Some people seem to sincerely believe that doing certain things in a certain way will result in a certain supernatural outcome. They might explain what they are trying to achieve, but do so in super-spiritual terms ("God has revealed to us that he loves to release his presence in our midst when we do so-and-so") rather than more straightforwardly.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm sure you right ... and you're obviously aware of the language used (which is virtually incomprehensible to those "outside the loop").
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Yes, it's scary. We have a Bethelised church in our pastors' fraternal here, all the leaders of which I know of old. They are mostly very nice people, but seem to be completely unaware that their language these days is made up almost entirely of this gobbledegook. I do think that self-deception that way lies.
[ 15. August 2016, 08:53: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Woah. Care to unpack that idea?
Not entirely sure I can do so in a coherent manner. It is something that occurred to me a few months back while reading Robert Capon. I would hesitate to make such things Angelic in their own right - but perhaps they end up becoming so due to our attitude to them.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by guthrum:
Motivation is important but so is transparency of purpose.
That's a good point.
I think that's an excellent point - art is transparent: you pick up a book, go to a movie, visit an art gallery, listen to music, and the contract is already in place. The artist has created something for you, and you're ready to appreciate it, and hopefully be moved.
Advertising is less transparent. We know they're trying to sell us something, but they're also trying to engage our emotions in some way. It's permissible, within certain limits.
The media is less transparent again. We suspect they have an agenda, even while we're hoping they actually tell us the truth. We're wary but still lapse into an easy acceptance of their manipulation of us.
Then you have actual criminals - con artists and fraudsters, who attempt to manipulate us with all the skill they can muster for their own private gain. Sometimes, of course, that can be people you trust (family, friends, your own bank) or strangers with a story to tell.
Where the church fits in this scheme is difficult to tell, but also where the church should fit in this scheme is difficult to tell. Is it art, is it advertising, is it media, is it in a category of its own?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
But isn't even a traditional Anglican service manipulative? The way people face, the positioning, the liturgy and its wording, all reinforce expected roles and beliefs. People high up the candle will rave about bells and smells, and yes Mark Wuntoo, good organ music, but rarely does one hear a charge of manipulation. Why is that?
One question for me is 'What comes first?' To me there is a difference between 'This verse is sad so I'll play it slowly and quietly' - where the awareness of the sadness precedes the musical choice - and 'Let's ramp up the praise choruses and the pious ejaculations in order to stir up some tongues and slayings in the Spirit' - where the change in worship style is intended to provoke something that doesn't yet exist.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Where the church fits in this scheme is difficult to tell, but also where the church should fit in this scheme is difficult to tell. Is it art, is it advertising, is it media, is it in a category of its own?
Of course it's in a category of its own. The Church uses art, music, advertising, media etc. But it's not about those things. It's about worship and the spreading of God's Kingdom. Does it use manipulation for this end, I'm sure it does.
But, as I said up thread, motivation really does matter. If the Church loves and cares for those it's in contact with - and works only for their good (as far as that is known). Then we don't need to fear too much.
As I also said up thread, there are dangers. If we have an atmosphere of love and trust we need to beware of folks who may wheedle in to become manipulators.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Eutychus, should those pastors you know of old be compelled to take a 'Bethelyser Test'?
I'll get me coat ...
Meanwhile, on the issue of cues and suggestibility and so on, a 'Damascus Road' thing happened for me when I attended a friend's indigeneous charismatic evangelical church in Spain on a few occasions during the late 1980s, early '90s.
I found it far more manipulative than my own UK congregation but realised that this was partly because I didn't speak the language - although I could get the gist of sermons strangely enough perhaps - and because I only had a smattering of Spanish phrases remained largely unmoved by the whole thing.
Even allowing for some Latin temperament coming into it, I realised that because I was unfamiliar with the language I could spot the 'joins' and the 'cues' and identify the 'mechanics' of how the whole thing worked in a better way than I could have done had I fully comprehended what was being said. I could spot the 'cues' a mile off and could see how people were being manipulated into crying, repenting or apparently being 'slain in the Spirit' etc.
I found it rather unsettling and it caused me to question and examine my own approach and experience when I got back to my own church.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But, as I said up thread, motivation really does matter. If the Church loves and cares for those it's in contact with - and works only for their good (as far as that is known). Then we don't need to fear too much.
"I only manipulated you because I love you."
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Motivation and clarity, surely? So people actually know what's going on.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Yes, I think that's what guthrum means by "transparency of purpose".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But, as I said up thread, motivation really does matter. If the Church loves and cares for those it's in contact with - and works only for their good (as far as that is known). Then we don't need to fear too much.
"I only manipulated you because I love you."
Of course I didn't mean that. You didn't read the rest of my post.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But, as I said up thread, motivation really does matter. If the Church loves and cares for those it's in contact with - and works only for their good (as far as that is known). Then we don't need to fear too much.
"I only manipulated you because I love you."
Of course I didn't mean that. You didn't read the rest of my post.
Of course I read the rest of your post.
People in church aren't children. Or if they are children, they're in the care of their parents. So to suggest quote:
If the Church loves and cares for those it's in contact with - and works only for their good (as far as that is known). Then we don't need to fear too much.
is still taking away people's agency. The Church Temporal is made of fallible humans. The temptation is to use whatever means we have to increase our number, when that's the Holy Spirit's work: always has been, always will be.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Do do your homework Martin.
[fixed disaster]
Ohhhhhh yeah. You never got back to me there. And thanks for fixing the disaster. Most godlike of you.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Motivation and clarity, surely? So people actually know what's going on.
Not how it works. Motivation is merely your intention, not the validity of your path. Clarity. Many cult leaders have been clear as to their intentions.
With the major world religions, and subdivisions thereof, motivation and clarity are relatively equal. So does Hinduism = Christianity? Would you say Buddhist might as well be Baptist?
Motivation and clarity aren't sufficient to themselves.
TBH, I think a lot of what is being expressed here, consciously or not, is that manipulation isn't so bad if one agrees with the message.
[ 15. August 2016, 16:10: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
While I take your point, perhaps I should explain is that I didn't mean "clarity of purpose for the manipulation" but "clarity in the people knowing that are being manipulated". That may not work though as I can be aware of being manipulated (in a film etc.) yet do little to resist it.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
When I was at college, I went to a Billy Graham meeting with the Christian Union, of which I was not a member. We were issued with clear instructions that none of us were to go forward, as the coach was booked for a certain time to get us all back in time for signing in.
I found myself sitting on a low wall at the front of the crowd.
I didn't agree with all of what Graham preached, and, having become a church member of my Congregational church had already accepted Jesus as Lord, so going forward, with or without that instruction not to, wasn't in my intention.
But I certainly felt the pull. I only needed to stand up and take one step, and I felt strongly drawn to do so. And I couldn't work out why.
It was only that order from the CU that stopped me.
The music? Maybe. The use of the voice, the timbre, the pauses, the rise and fall? Probably.
And, getting away, and realising that I had been manipulated to put my mind out of the circuit, I became rather unhappy with the experience.
[ 15. August 2016, 16:44: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
While I take your point, perhaps I should explain is that I didn't mean "clarity of purpose for the manipulation" but "clarity in the people knowing that are being manipulated". That may not work though as I can be aware of being manipulated (in a film etc.) yet do little to resist it.
The bold bit is exactly my point. How many people would choose to watch a home-invasion horror movie just before sleep, despite knowing it is fake?
Now consider our susceptibility when we believe.
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
But I certainly felt the pull. I only needed to stand up and take one step, and I felt strongly drawn to do so. And I couldn't work out why.
Charisma
[ 15. August 2016, 17:19: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Charisma? Not sure. Charisma can be very off-putting to some. More likely to be group pressure / suggestion I would think.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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