Ship of Fools: Lifestyle diets, vegetarian, vegan, other avoidances: rigidity and flexibility

Printer-friendly view

»	Ship of Fools » » Oblivion » Lifestyle diets, vegetarian, vegan, other avoidances: rigidity and flexibility (Page 1)

Email this page to a friend or enemy.

Pages in this thread: 1 2

Source: (consider it)

Thread: Lifestyle diets, vegetarian, vegan, other avoidances: rigidity and flexibility

no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

Posted

I'm finding it hard to accept justification of rigid adherence to these two types of V diet, and perhaps it is unfair to lump them together.

The vegetarians say that eating animals is bad for the planet and add that eating plants is also healthier. The vegans add some additional strict rules about avoiding animal based products in general within diet and lifestyle because of a moral or ethical objection to animals being commodities.

Individuality and freedom of choice seem to be lovely things to emphasize, but I find at times that someone's choices impose on mine, such as when someone invited over for a meal informs us of non-medical food avoidances, or decides to evangelize about it.

Some of the arguments about costs to the environment may fail when someone in northern Canada eats a New Zealand apple or Mexican eggplant (aubergine) instead of a local chicken because transport is left out. A debatable point, about which I've seen variance. It is best to avoid such debates I've found, and to include food preferences with politics and religion as barriers to a pleasant evening, except that food preferences and lifestyle diets are the very thing.

So what are the ethics, morals and behavioural guidelines about this? I have been told that we should completely respect the V diets and go to pains to accommodate.

How much should our food preferences impose on other people? We've yet to de-invite a fussy person, though my wife did suggest to one person that she might bring her own food to a barbeque. I paid no attention whether she drank the beer clarified with isinglass and avoided completely the discussion of sanitizing the grill from possible meat residue.

Is what is asserted for V diets equally valid for other food preferences? For example, I can have milk products without immediate health effects (won't get ill nor vomit), but dislike them, particularly the congealed products like cream cheeses and yogourts, though hard cheeses are okay - might I align this with egg-eating vegetarian? Or should I accept that meals may sometimes violate my diet and eat them out of politeness? (I do this.) I also don't usually discuss my loathing of coriander / cilantro and how it ruins any dish for me. But perhaps I should be more assertive about these things(?)

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010 | IP: Logged

Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I also don't usually discuss my loathing of coriander / cilantro and how it ruins any dish for me. But perhaps I should be more assertive about these things(?)

I have a friend who shares your distaste for cilantro. Apparently, something like 10% of people think that cilantro tastes like soap, and it's probably genetic.

I don't put cilantro in things if he's coming for dinner. Why would I deliberately prepare food that my friends wouldn't like?

Mostly, the awkward squad are my children's friends rather than my own. So most dinner invitations start "would yours eat...?" Because I want them to enjoy dinner, and not sit there pushing some pasta around the plate because I cruelly placed it in contact with some vegetables or something.

Clearly guests should be accommodating and not make a fuss. I've politely choked down food I disliked in the past, as I expect have most other people. But I don't think you'd expect a Jewish guest to join you in a bacon sandwich for the sake of politeness, and I see no reason not to treat someone's adherence to veganism or vegetarianism on a similar level.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013 | IP: Logged

Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

Posted

If you're a guest, you can't in good manners force a host to prepare and serve you what you want. If you're a host, you can't in good manners force a guest to eat anything. So the worst possible polite scenario that can happen is for a guest to come only to realize that there is absolutely nothing appealing to him/her--at which point the choices for the guest are a) to do without, even fasting entirely if necessary, or b) to compromise on issues where compromise is a possibility. (The choices for the host are either a) to allow said guest to fast / eat only macaroni or what have you, or b) to graciously prepare something additional.)

What host and guest work out in such a situation is apt to depend on their joint history together, as well as on the nature of the objections the guest has to the food provided. But nobody's under obligation to do anything. The guest is not required to eat; the host is not required to cook something else. All else is grace and kindness--or should be, anyway.

I confess that if I had a guest who was being a real pain in the rear, and had been so in the past, I would be more likely to let him/her suffer than I would for a guest who had always behaved like a reasonable human being. Similarly I'd be much more inclined to go to extra trouble for a guest with medical or religious issues than I would for one who was merely picky or who insisted on evangelizing for veganism or locavorism at the table.

As a guest, I'd do my darndest to choke it down unless it was cranberries (danger of anaphylaxis) or cannibalism (moral objections). I loathe and despise fish, but I've been known to eat it under the eye of mine hosts. And when a lady chose to honor me specially with a Vietnamese sea food taco prepared with her own hands, and topped with a mini-octopus (still intact and looking at me!) well, I did the deed.

And had a relapse of pneumonia the next day, but hey. [Snigger]

[ 16. August 2016, 03:25: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged

Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

Posted

Ach, hit Post too soon. [Hot and Hormonal]

To be sure, if I knew I was inviting a vegetarian/vegan/whatsit to dinner, I would attempt to take their inclinations into account out of ordinary hospitality. But if I didn't know, I would expect them as decent human beings to refrain from rubbing it in my face. Similarly, if I am invited to dinner at the home of a family known to live almost totally on fish (Bleah!), I will either politely sidestep the invitation or come prepared to choke it down. I know what they're like. There's no excuse for me being precious.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged

SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

Posted

Love the OP! [Smile]

All I would add is that it is lucky no-one knew about vegan diets etc when the human species first evolved or they'd have probably become extinct through malnutrition!

--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007 | IP: Logged

Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

Posted

For some veggiea/vegans it is a conviction as strong as religion and so should be respected as such; I would no more think a vegan should eat meat to be polite than I'd expect a muslim to eat a pork chop.

My non-medical sticking point is fish. I could no more "choke it down" than I could a dogshit.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

Posted

Generally, if I know a vegan is coming for dinner, I'll try to have a vegan casserole that can be the entree for the vegan and a side dish for myself and the rest. Out of politeness I'll try not to have meat that looks, well, too meaty like meat on bones or slabs of red meat. But if the guest starts preaching obnoxiously or acts snooty towards myself or my other guests, that person is struck from future invites.

Luckily, I have no vegan relatives. In fact the relative who lives nearest to myself is pretty much a carnivore.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003 | IP: Logged

Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

Posted

Apposite piece in The Guardian on why vegan is not the salvation of the planet. tl:dr - too many poor people depend on marginal land which will support livestock but not crops.

On a personal level, I always ask guests in advance if there's anything they Don't Eat. With the friends we dine with most frequently, it's apt to be a cooperative menu, with us/them bringing part of the meal (with suitable accompanying wine of course).

Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

Posted

For many vegetarians/vegans, it *is* a religious/spiritual matter. Hindus, for example, and many/most Seventh Day Adventists, but lots of others, too.

You need to invite some breatharians--people who try to live on air alone. As long as they don't ask you to set up an oxygen bar. [Biased]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

Posted

We have several vegetarians in our family, and some who will eat fish but not meat. If we have a family 'do' we tend to make it veggie for simplicy's sake. My brother's a veggie and lives with me three days a week. I enjoy concocting meals for us and I think it does me good too.

There are some brilliant veggie restaurants around.

Vegan I don't understand at all. Humans have lived with animals and their milk/cheese/wool/eggs for so many millennia I can't begin to imagine turning back the clock.

Personally I will eat anything which has had a happy life and a humane death (and doesn't have paws!)

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008 | IP: Logged

Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

Posted

I have met lots and lots of vegetarians and a few vegans, and none of them have been preachy or evangelistic. Am I just fantastically lucky?

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004 | IP: Logged

anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

Posted

quote:
So what are the ethics, morals and behavioural guidelines about this?

This interests me for several reasons. But for now I'll take one of them.

I can be a food bore - I admit it, because it genuinely interests me, and it grieves me to see so many people getting fatter, so I do become an anti-sugar soapboxer. Just like some are anti-smoking soapies - which is more politically correct.

It intrigues me why Churches are so intent on pushing sugary cakes down people throats - more so than doctrine it seems. "We don't do dogma. God loves you. Have a cake!"

Is this wrong, or just likely to lose me friends? Well it depends on how much I go on about it, and it is rather tricky if there are some f** people in earshot. I suppose the nearest equivalent in terms of being viewed as pernickety is total abstinence.

It's not a problem if I am a guest, since whereas I find people don't like you mentioning anything to do with the F word, I have never had anyone be at all fussed if I turn down there pecan and honey cheesecake with chocolate sauce.

It's just more for them.

--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.

Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006 | IP: Logged

Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

Posted

anteater--

IMHO, get down off the soap box, and turn it into soapbox derby car. You'll do less damage, and have more fun. [Biased]

Seriously, you're apt to offend and hurt a lot of people, send them away from bothering with your version of healthy eating--and quite possibly drive them (even those of a "healthy" weight) to go home and self-comfort with several doughnuts.

Maybe just quietly serve healthy food when it's your turn; and if anyone asks, tell them simply what's in the food--without making a big production of it.

FWIW.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

Posted

GoldenKey:
Well I certainly take your point, and for this reason, I do limit my tendency to be a bit of a crusader.

But it is precisely the emotive aspects of this that worry me. It may well be true that I may "offend and hurt a lot of people" but then I wonder why people should react in this way, to a rational discussion of the bad effect of highly sugary foods. Let me assure you I don't approach this in the slightly flip was that my post suggests.

Maybe this is because a lot of people who carry too much fat (and get very offended even by this term) are unhappy about it and don't like to be reminded.

BTW I also am somewhat too fat. (BMI 27.3 compared to recommended max 24.9). And for men, visceral fat is not a joke. I have metabolic syndrome as do a high percentage of men with significant visceral fat.

As an aside, would you be against all attempts to advocate a position you believe in, even at the risk of offending? I mentioned smoking. Would you have taken the same attitude, in the days when smoking was much more widespread?

I also may be influenced by the fact that my life was turned around by a friend who didn't just advocate, but harangued me about getting of my arse and into a career. To such an extent that I did sometimes avoid him. But the odd thing is, in the end I was convinced, and did something about it.

--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.

Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006 | IP: Logged

Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

Posted

My soapbox is the BMI calculation. It's a joke - pay it no attention whatsoever. It's a crude calculation that is essentially meaningless.

I've apparently got a BMI of 29 (overweight, one off obese), at a weight of just over 15st (95kg). My target weight is 13st, apparently. I've never been 13st as an adult except when I nearly died from food poisoning, and when I was at my fittest (football, cycling, swimming and a manual job) in my 20s, I was indeed technically obese.

I'm now 50, and anyone who quotes BMI at me can get their running shoes on and come out with me for 10k.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005 | IP: Logged

Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

Posted

Well, the first problem with such "discussions" is that they usually aren't discussions. What I normally see is one person holding forth at length while the rest of the people present desperately wish he/she would shut up. That's not a discussion, that's a lecture or even a scolding. And nobody signed on for that at a dinner party.

The other thing that's a problem is what you mentioned about fat people being put off by your lecture. There is an extremely good reason why that puts them off, and that is the fact that they face public shaming day in and day out. And that's usually at the hands of people like you, who assume that their problem is caused by overeating sugary/fatty foods (and is therefore a moral problem deserving scolding, even by total strangers in public).

But that simply isn't true. Some people gain weight by over-indulging; others have a variety of problems ranging from genetics to drug side effects to [this space left blank for the use of thousands of obesity scientists investigating everything from BPA to viruses]. And even those who over-indulge don't deserve public shaming. Yet by lecturing on the subject of foods-that-ought-to-be-avoided, you have just turned the thoughts of everyone in the room to the unfortunate fat person (or underweight person, or known diabetic) who is doubtless wishing the floor would open up and swallow them.

My BMI is high enough I'm uncomfortable mentioning it here. You can be sure, though, that I put up with fat shaming on a regular basis. And I simply CAN'T announce, every time it happens, that there are clear genetic problems in my family on both sides, going back at least four generations; that I am being treated for thyroid problems (yes, really, diagnosed by a real doctor and all, not some self-diagnosis off the internet); that I have PCOS, which has weight gain as one effect; and that I am on several medications with known side effects of weight gain. I know damn well what my fellow dinner guests are thinking; but you can't defend yourself against people's thoughts. And even against their words (should they be so crass), I have to ask myself: Do I really want to disclose my personal medical history to such people?

It's damned embarrassing to have a problem that is self-evident to anyone with working eyes, AND that half the population believes is due to my own moral failings. It's worse because I live in a world where what I eat, or don't, is still considered acceptable dinner conversation by acquaintances or even strangers. Seriously, I think I'd get more delicacy and consideration if I were a known convicted murderer.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged

Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

Posted

I'm an extremely fussy eater - largely down to autistic sensory issues with food. Many people on the spectrum are fussy eaters and find a large range of foods repulsive.

So yeah I'm the nightmare guest. I won't like the meal you slaved over all afternoon. Combine it with the fact that I don't eat meat, although I do eat fish, and it's almost certain that I won't want to eat the thing you planned to cook.

That's me. I'm fussy. I'm difficult to feed. I generally advise people not to try to invite me over for dinner. When people are doing events like weddings I advise them to please not bother trying to get something on the menu that I'd like. Save the £20 a head and leave me off the hungry list. Same for Mr Liopleurodon - he's actually even more difficult than I am.

What I can't get my head around is the idea that I'm doing this to be difficult. I'm not being fussy about food AT you. I'm happy to not eat at your party. I'd also be delighted to chow down on bread and cheese while other people are having some crazy complicated thing. I won't be offended if you don't make something specifically for me. I'll be relieved. I'm not asking anyone to go to any special effort. You may be offended by my refusal to munch that risotto, but you'd likely be more offended if I vomited in the middle of your living room.

If you enjoy eating everything that anyone considers food, then congratulations. You are lucky. You're not morally better.

--------------------
Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003 | IP: Logged

Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

Posted

Lots of people are allergic to various foods - wheat, shellfish, corn, dairy, strawberries etc. Some are "mentally allergic" - my vegetarian friends hate the brutal way commercial meat animals are treated and don't want to endorse that with their food choices.

I have seen people at a gathering quietly skip the main dish and just eat salad, no big fuss. Vegetarian friends who land at a meat based restaurant because others took them there scan the menu for what veggies the restaurant has on hand and order a plate of veggies. Yes they tell the waitress "I'm vegetarian" - it's information explaining their unusual order, not preaching.

People talk about vegans and vegetarians as if they are judgmental of meat eaters, maybe some are but I've never met any; I have met meat eaters who resent anyone who doesn't eat meat.

I grieve the sugar addiction of many friends, but when they say "I would rather lose a foot to diabetes than give up desserts" nothing I could say would make any difference, better to just enjoy their company.

The food comments I resent are the "you have to eat this" whether because "it's so good" or "I made it for you." I was raised in a "you must be polite and eat what you are served" culture and people sometimes suffered terribly at home after a meal eaten to please the hostess. Since when is a hostess's pleasure more important than a guest's health?

Worse is when they lie about the ingredients to entice you to eat it. Some people seriously react to fake sugars or MSG or the slightest bit of peanut! Lying about ingredients to get someone to take a bite is evil.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008 | IP: Logged

Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

Clearly guests should be accommodating and not make a fuss. I've politely choked down food I disliked in the past, as I expect have most other people. But I don't think you'd expect a Jewish guest to join you in a bacon sandwich for the sake of politeness, and I see no reason not to treat someone's adherence to veganism or vegetarianism on a similar level.

This.

I'm vegetarian and have been for decades. I don't preach or proselytize, as my husband can attest (he is not vegetarian). I am grateful when people accommodate me, but if someone doesn't, I eat what is put in front of me. I eat around meat if I can, but sometimes it isn't possible.

For example, years ago I went to Mexico, and lovely people prepared a meal for me in their home--this was a very big deal for them, and me too. They made pozole, and usually it is made with pork. They substituted chicken. While they knew I was vegetarian, they didn't know how to make the dish without meat, and since they viewed chicken as "healthier" than pork, they used it, It was absolutely delicious. I was very touched, and accepting their hospitality graciously was more important than sticking to my dietary guns.

That said ... if someone as a host *deliberately* wants to get me to eat meat because they don't agree with vegetarianism or they want to score a point of some sort, fuck 'em. That's a lousy way to treat a guest.

I am very interested in what I view as good nutrition, but I keep my yap shut about it unless I know for a FACT that others are interested--that is, when they ask for my opinion. Shaming people about their weight or what they eat is pointless. Nagging and being self-righteous and waving nutritional studies in people's faces won't do a damn thing except alienate them. Change comes from within, not from a hectoring external voice. As Lamb Chopped pointed out, there are many reasons why people are overweight. I am not privy to those reasons.

--------------------
"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."

Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged

Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by anteater:

As an aside, would you be against all attempts to advocate a position you believe in, even at the risk of offending? I mentioned smoking. Would you have taken the same attitude, in the days when smoking was much more widespread?

I don't smoke. But if I did, and I went outside for a fag after dinner, and you started going on about how smoking was bad for me, you wouldn't be invited a second time.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013 | IP: Logged

lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I'm finding it hard to accept justification of rigid adherence to these two types of V diet, and perhaps it is unfair to lump them together.

The vegetarians say that eating animals is bad for the planet and add that eating plants is also healthier. The vegans add some additional strict rules about avoiding animal based products in general within diet and lifestyle because of a moral or ethical objection to animals being commodities.

People choose to be vegetarian or vegan for a variety of reasons, not just that one.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

Individuality and freedom of choice seem to be lovely things to emphasize, but I find at times that someone's choices impose on mine, such as when someone invited over for a meal informs us of non-medical food avoidances, or decides to evangelize about it.

The invitation has more obligation than the acceptance. If you would invite people to your home, it is polite to enquire as to their requirements and preferences. Why would you wish people to suffer?
As a guest, one should be as appreciative as possible of what one has been offered. And polite in declining to partake of items one does not wish to consume.
Obviously, this becomes more difficult in large groups, such as formal dinners, weddings, etc. Not everyone can be catered to.
As far as evangelising, one shouldn't, IMO. However, whether one is explaining or evangelising is sometimes more a perception than a reality.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008 | IP: Logged

mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

Posted

I have heard tell of people specifying that, for example, they could not have dairy, and their hosts choosing to ignore what they thought was an unreasonable request, and the guest going to the hospital with an anaphylactic reaction. People without sensitivities can get very self-righteous, and if they act on their self-righteousness they could conceivably kill people. (Not breathing is very bad for you.) Thank about that, O ye put-out hosts, before getting snippy about dietary restrictions.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

Posted

Leorning Cnicht:

quote:
I don't smoke. But if I did, and I went outside for a fag after dinner, and you started going on about how smoking was bad for me, you wouldn't be invited a second time.

Of course. And I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing, to someone who had invited me and was not close to me.

But can you not think of any people in your life who, if they smoked, you would at least try to suggest that it's not a good idea.

A friend of mine was horrified to find his son had started smoking, and did the full Dad act on him. In this case it worked. Isn't it sometimes worth the try?

[ 16. August 2016, 18:56: Message edited by: anteater ]

--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.

Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006 | IP: Logged

Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by anteater:

But can you not think of any people in your life who, if they smoked, you would at least try to suggest that it's not a good idea.

Of course - and equally I've had plenty of conversations with friends about how something I ate, or something they ate, was unhealthy, and perhaps I or they should consider eating less of it.

I've also had a carnivorous friend turn another friend veggie by pointing out what he saw as the hypocrisy of the second friend being squeamish about animal slaughter. Friend carnivore thought that if you ate meat, you shouldn't be squeamish about the idea of killing meat. Friend veggie decided he was right, and gave up meat. Not the outcome friend Carnivore was expecting!

But none of these conversations were in the context of the food anyone was offering to the others at a dinner party.

It would surely be churlish to start a conversation about how sugar is bad for you as your friend brought out the cake he had just made. It's simple enough to say "just a sliver please - I don't eat much sugar."

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013 | IP: Logged

Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have heard tell of people specifying that, for example, they could not have dairy, and their hosts choosing to ignore what they thought was an unreasonable request, and the guest going to the hospital with an anaphylactic reaction. People without sensitivities can get very self-righteous, and if they act on their self-righteousness they could conceivably kill people. (Not breathing is very bad for you.) Thank about that, O ye put-out hosts, before getting snippy about dietary restrictions.

Yup. There's currently a TV public service announcement with young people (late teens or early twenties) at a party. One girl starts to get sick. Friends cluster around, talking about her peanut allergy. They ask the hostess if she'd put peanut butter in anything. Horrified, she realizes she'd forgotten about the allergy. The girl gets very ill, looks undead, and collapses. Then there's a reminder about anaphylactic shock, avoiding allergens, and maybe something about carrying an epi pen.

I didn't find it online, but I did find a good HuffPost article on food allergy bullying. About halfway down the page, there's another PSA: "Food Allergy Bullying: It's Not A Joke". It's put out by the Food Allergy Research Association (FARE) and there's a link to their site.

[ 16. August 2016, 21:31: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

Posted

Allergies, and sensitivities like celiacs disease, are serious and can have serious effects on people.

Beyond allergies, food preferences are important as well. Not in a physical health way, but in our social interactions. Eating together is an important social interaction in most cultures. To ignore the guests' preferences negates their importance to you, at least in part.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008 | IP: Logged

no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

Posted

Not complaining about actual food allergies or conditions like Celiac and diabetes. Rather less interested in preferences with no medical basis. It's why I don't discuss my non-illness responses about food. I appreciate and support the non-fussy responses some have posted about when a host serves something disliked or not on the preference list.

A close relative has Celiac for whom any wheat or related gluten-containing food will create a 2-7 day illness reaction, pain, missed work, lingering fatigue. She has asserted that those with mere preferences or lifestyle choices can weaken the appropriate host (and restaurant) response such that exposure through cross contamination occurs. If it is merely a preference and not medical, then a wee bit of the problematic foodstuff has no medical implications. Of course the correct response in advance is to inform that it is medical and serious. Not a preference.

This story about a server arrested in Québec is rather startling I think. The server mistakenly served salmon tartar instead of beef, endangering the life of a patron.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010 | IP: Logged

Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by anteater:

A friend of mine was horrified to find his son had started smoking, and did the full Dad act on him. In this case it worked. Isn't it sometimes worth the try?

If you're my Dad, I give you permission to go all medical on my eating patterns. Anybody else had better have an MD behind their name.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged

Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
it grieves me to see so many people getting fatter, so I do become an anti-sugar soapboxer. Just like some are anti-smoking soapies - which is more politically correct.

It's never politically correct to lecture people about their personal health habits. People getting fatter really shouldn't grieve anyone. Latest studies show overweight people live longer than thin ones and extra weight doesn't effect the heart as much as we were told. One thing for sure "the obesity epidemic," gets tons of news coverage. It's very unlikely you have any information to impart that everyone hasn't already heard.

Next party, try to do a little preliminary research, find out who has a porn addiction and lecture them about that.

Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This story about a server arrested in Québec is rather startling I think. The server mistakenly served salmon tartar instead of beef, endangering the life of a patron.

I'm guessing this isn't the first order he's fucked up, just the first that had such serious consequences. This is not a good waiter.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Apposite piece in The Guardian on why vegan is not the salvation of the planet. tl:dr - too many poor people depend on marginal land which will support livestock but not crops.

Surely that article is based on a strawman, because no matter how many articles George Monbiot writes, the whole world is not going to become vegan. An increase in the number of vegans, however, would reduce the amount of land used for livestock, and I think it's generally agreed that a reduction, rather than an elimination, of land used for livestock would be Good For The Planet.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004 | IP: Logged

Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

Posted

If we're having guests we don't know very well, we always ask what dietary restrictions we need to follow and plan around that. So far, no-one has said that they are vegetarian or vegan; several gluten-intolerant or coeliac (they are different) as well as the usual seafood problems. But beyond that, no-one has yet volunteered that they won't eat eg terrine because they dislike it.

I remember a thread a few years ago when someone had brought a friend to a dinner, with no warning that the friend was vegan; said friend got very vocal when given something like microwaved frozen vegetables as being the only alternative available.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged

anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

Posted

Twilight:

quote:
People getting fatter really shouldn't grieve anyone. Latest studies show overweight people live longer than thin ones and extra weight doesn't effect the heart as much as we were told. One thing for sure "the obesity epidemic," gets tons of news coverage. It's very unlikely you have any information to impart that everyone hasn't already heard.

Well I just plain don't believe that, and would value information about the latest studies. (Unless by "thin" you mean borderline anorexic).

If they do show no health risk for obesity I will change my tune, but I will also be very surprised. You may think I am neurotic in preferring to avoid it, but nobody has even tried to outline the plus-side to obesity, nor do I think they will. Unless you just have by claiming they live longer.

As for imparting new facts, that all depends. Clearly some "facts" are in dispute, most notably the fat vs sugar as the main culprit debate. Also many people are already quite well informed.

But is everyone familiar with the reasons why sucrose is detrimental to the body, with the resulting dangers of sucrose-heavy drinks?

--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.

Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006 | IP: Logged

Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

Posted

Being overweight is not clearly a health danger. The obesity paradox discusses a number of studies showing that being overweight (not grossly obese) tends to increase longevity. Whereas Cancer Research links obesity to a number of cancers. There are also studies showing some advantages of being overweight (Daily Telegraph article from 2015).

According to this metastudy the jury is out on the dangers of sucrose - a longer discussion in Scientific American discussing sugar metabolism.

Returning to the OP and having spent some years dealing with my daughter's food intolerances and allergies*, lack of awareness of food allergies makes life far more difficult than it needs to be.

An attitude that people are being difficult and faddy about food if they won't eat things isn't helpful. My parents have this attitude and it led to both one of my sisters and my daughter sitting in front of the same reheated meal for 24 hours on different occasions when they wouldn't eat a meal. The sister became anorexic. I didn't allow my daughter to go back into the same situation. When she got older and could describe what was happening, she was avoiding foods that itched or tingled. Having been fairly sceptical, we used something which was on her list on her skin and the rash was pretty spectacular.

* dairy, gluten, most nuts, shellfish, pineapple - it's not just food, the list includes lots of medications, latex, nickel

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006 | IP: Logged

Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

Posted

anteater--

You mentioned that you yourself are overweight and have metabolic syndrome. IIRC, that makes it extremely hard to lose weight.

Respectfully, I'd think that would nudge you to being merciful to other people with weight problems...unless you are somehow taking your own weight frustrations out on them, by lecturing?

Please understand: As posters have said, in various ways, your behavior sounds very rude and hurtful. Do you want to drive people away from you?

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Twilight:

quote:
People getting fatter really shouldn't grieve anyone. Latest studies show overweight people live longer than thin ones and extra weight doesn't effect the heart as much as we were told. One thing for sure "the obesity epidemic," gets tons of news coverage. It's very unlikely you have any information to impart that everyone hasn't already heard.
Well I just plain don't believe that, and would value information about the latest studies. (Unless by "thin" you mean borderline anorexic).

I have seen studies that report this. I can't cite one offhand. I can, however, give an example from my own personal experience.

Last January I developed pneumonia and severe sepsis. I spent six days in the hospital and four weeks in a rehab facility. During all this, I lost seventeen pounds. I was overweight to begin with, so I could afford the loss. If I had been at my "ideal" weight, I would have taken much longer to regain my strength.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

Posted

I have done some very quick googling on Google Scholar. The relationship between BMI and Relative Risk(RR) seems to be called U-shaped, although a slanted j-shape might be more accurate. Basically, people at the top range of the normal BMI are as likely to die as those at the bottom but people who are overweight are more likely to die than those at the mid-range of normal weight. It also appears that there is a more simple relationship between a body shape measure and RR. This is not surprising, body shape takes into consideration exercise as well! Sorry if either link is behind a paywall.

I need to do more research because I seem to recall that among the very elderly (75+) this relationship does not hold particularly well.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

Posted

Curiosity Killed:

quote:
According to this metastudy the jury is out on the dangers of sucrose - a longer discussion in Scientific American discussing sugar metabolism.

Well yes, I have to admit that these studies are far more nuanced than the anti-fructose stance of Robert Lustig who I admit to being influenced by (and incidentally he saw no problem with sucrose amongst the highly physically active - but I'm not one of those).

Sadly, these studies are also beyond my ability to comprehend, so as with so many issues we choose our gurus, but I'll be more wary now.

quote:
Please understand: As posters have said, in various ways, your behavior sounds very rude and hurtful. Do you want to drive people away from you?

I think I admit it can be hurtful, although I'm never actually rude about this, and have rarely raised the subject, and certainly not with people who have wieght problems. But I know I have at times bored by Nearest and Dearest to Death about this and have learned the hard way that not everybody shares my interest.

But I'll take your point since I may well be insensitive about this.

You say it's hard to lose weight if you have Metabolic Syndrome. Actually SFAIK it's not, since visceral fat is easier to lose and more dangerous to have, and I do it by reducing (not eliminating) carbs. So maybe this is the problem. If something works well for you, it's easy to suppose it works well for others.

Maybe I'll start a thread on advocacy of causes.

--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.

Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006 | IP: Logged

The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398

Posted

My brother is a militant vegetarian with knobs on. He also won’t eat anything with onions or other alliums in it. His family are such a pain to feed that we have all but given up. And we endure a lot of preaching on the subject.

We are often lectured by our nephew about eating meet (we have our own troubles with food allergies including ameins and salicilates which are in a whole host of things) so serving meat to our own children was a pragmatic way of keeping same. He tells us it is “dirty” etc etc. We answer well “we like it” ad leave it at that.

However, we have a fun sport at family gatherings and parties. That same nephew approaches the buffet table and looks around to see if anyone is watching. He then samples the cocktail sausages, the tuna mayo and spicy chicken pizza. We gather round to compare notes and laugh about his illicit haul afterwards. We will try and accommodate but are buggered if we are going to police his strange diet.

Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged

Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

Posted

Anteater: I'm thankful to see others have done my work for me regarding the links. I can also bear witness to the one saying elderly people seem to get no health benefits from dietary changes. I have my Google news tweaked to bring me all this, so maybe you're right about others being less informed.

You'll probably be surprised to know that I'm also a Dr. Lustig fan and haven't had any foods with more than 3 grams added sugar in years. So we agree on that, I just don't believe in telling people about it. There used to be a man who attended the same parties I did and he would sidle up to tell me things like, "You can eat the cake, it's fat free." That was during the phase when fat, rather than sugar was the devil.

When I was a very skinny smoker people would actually follow me outside to the designated smoking area to tell me smoking caused cancer. Three weeks after I quit smoking and had gained about ten pounds, the weight-warnings began. It's just no one else's business. The people who would rather eat donuts than live an extra year have my full respect for their choice.

Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

Posted

I have been, from childhood, a Fine Big Girl. Unsurprising, since my ancestry is Irish peasant as far as the eye can see, and tall, strong women with wide hips and inbuilt famine resistance were a highly desirable outcome.

I am now a Fine and even Bigger Old Woman - and pure waygu. This body is built not out of sucrose and sugary cakes, but fresh ingredients home cooked when at all possible. (I only wish I had access to what my parents took for granted growing up - vegetables from your own fields, milk from your own cattle, eggs and meat from animals you reared and slaughtered).

Food should be a pleasure. Food (and wine) with good company even more so. If it isn't, whatever your rationale, you're simply doing it wrong.

Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
My brother is a militant vegetarian with knobs on. He also won’t eat anything with onions or other alliums in it. His family are such a pain to feed that we have all but given up. And we endure a lot of preaching on the subject.

I've tried to feed your brother or his twin. I asked and was told about the vegetarianism in advance, but not the onions or alliums. Which was a shame because I cooked a range of tapas to give the guests options to meet their differing needs. Most of which majored on garlic and onions. And if I'd been told about the alliums I would have cooked something else.

Much to my irritation he decided he could manage some bread, cheese and chutney (which also contained a significant proportion of onions and garlic. I know because I made it.)

Irritation because I was on a very tight budget at the time and had planned other meals from that bread and cheese and he ate rather a lot of those ingredients.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006 | IP: Logged

no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

Posted

CS Lewis wrote in Screwtape about the "gluttony of delicacy". Link which quotes about it.

Perhaps my mother's fussiness and death via malnutrition (okay not true, but we do say this, within my nasty family) has made me react the opposite way. From the link above:

quote:
She is a positive terror to hostesses and servants. She is always turning from what has been offered her to say with a demure little sigh and a smile ‘Oh please, please ... all I want is a cup of tea, weak but not too weak, and the teeniest weeniest bit of really crisp toast’....she never recognises as gluttony her determination to get what she wants, however troublesome it may be to others.

Lewis identifies this with the deadly sin. I identify it as insufferable.

[ 17. August 2016, 20:57: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010 | IP: Logged

Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
We are often lectured by our nephew about eating meat . . . That same nephew approaches the buffet table and looks around to see if anyone is watching. He then samples the cocktail sausages, the tuna mayo and spicy chicken pizza. We gather round to compare notes and laugh. . . .

Not to sidle up to him and snicker, "Good, weren't they?" [Big Grin]

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged

georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294

Posted

Also on the list of those possibly condemned by Lewis might be some erstwhile guests of mine.

In a former life I gave an annual Twelfth Night party, the invitations to which read plainly 'Please come for eggnog and dessert'. The offerings were homemade eggnog (Colonial Williamsburg recipe with 3 kinds of spirits) & also plain eggnog from the market with NO spirits -- both plainly labelled on the serving table. There were various traditional cakes -- I usually made one each day betw Christmas and 12th Night.

But there was this one couple ---- they RSVP'd promptly and arrived at the appointed hour. AND THEN. she asked for a cup of tea (demanded, really), and he said 'don't you have any beer?' I didn't have any beer and the kitchen was far too crowded/busy to make tea. (There were approx 75 guests.) I just said 'I'm so sorry, it's just not possible.' They were not on the next year's guest list.

Another year by way of contrast, a friend said, 'I just ate a big dinner, but i'll just pour myself a drink.' She knew the kitchen/bar setup, and helped herself. She rated a permanent place on the list.

--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.

Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006 | IP: Logged

cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

Posted

as long as we're sharing anecdotes... my sons get a good laugh at their father: Mr. Cliffdweller has in recent years, decided not to eat mammals out of ethical concerns about the inhumane way livestock are raised/handled here in the US. I wouldn't have drawn the line in quite that same way, but it works for him and is easy to follow-- disallowing most of the more problematic meats, particularly those of more sentient beings, but giving him the flexibility to have chicken or fish. (My brothers dubbed Mr. C's dietary methodology with a take on the old vegetarian credo-- instead of "nothing with a face" it's just "nothing with nipples...").

Mr. C is, as others here, is very easy going about it-- if we're guests at someone's home and they're serving pork or beef, he'll fill up on salad or sides. He also makes an exception for his frequent mission trips for reasons that have been noted above-- it seems awkward and ungracious cross-culturally to refuse food that has graciously, and often sacrificially been offered.

The funny part: I'm often unable to travel with Mr. C due to work responsibilities, but our sons are frequent companions. Recently they revealed that Mr. C now begins the mission exclusion on the plane to their destination-- choosing the beef entre over the chicken or vegetarian one. And now it seems he's extended that even to the airport on either end of the journey...

[ 18. August 2016, 00:17: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008 | IP: Logged

lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

Posted

So, regarding militants and busybodies: How can one tell?
Vegetarians who believe you are ruining the planet, ruining your health, killing beings of equal worth as humans, etc., should never say anything?
People who care about you and wish you would stop smoking should let you kill yourself rather than speak?

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008 | IP: Logged

Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

Posted

lB--

Matter of time, place, manner, and empathy.

--Don't hassle someone about their food while they're eating.

--Don't embarrass them about their perceived problem, especially in front of other people.

--Before you say/do anything, remind yourself of your own problems. (Difficult, and takes practice, IME.)

--Don't automatically assume that you understand the situation.

There *can* be exceptions: e.g., you're responsible for the person, or they're on the edge of doing something very serious. But might be better to try a softer approach, first. If you break their trust, it might not be possible to get it back. And they'll go ahead and do the thing.

FWIW, YMMV, etc.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
He also makes an exception for his frequent mission trips for reasons that have been noted above-- it seems awkward and ungracious cross-culturally to refuse food that has graciously, and often sacrificially been offered.

AIUI, the Dalai Lama takes the same approach. He's a vegetarian; but, sometimes, he's in a situation where it would be very unkind to refuse what he's served.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

Posted

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, regarding militants and busybodies: How can one tell?
Vegetarians who believe you are ruining the planet, ruining your health, killing beings of equal worth as humans, etc., should never say anything?
People who care about you and wish you would stop smoking should let you kill yourself rather than speak?

Let them speak, sure--but let those of us who wish not to listen leave. It is generally Not Done to leave a dinner party one is hosting, no matter how obnoxious a guest may be. That is why guests ought not to make themselves obnoxious. It's not fair to the host.

On the other hand, if someone wants to set up a soapbox in the park or on the internet and yammer on about sugar, fat, carbs, what have you, go for it. I can walk away if I want to.

As for those who sincerely worry about my health, being closely connected to me (e.g. husband, child, parent, very close friend)--well, if one is worried enough, one takes the risk of offending and speaks up. But not at a dinner party, or in a setting which will add needless offense to the situation. I once had to put up with a first-degree relative who shall be unidentified here who decided to lecture me for TWO FREAKING HOURS while we were stuck together on a train and I couldn't escape. Said person informed me that not only was my obesity disgusting and dangerous to my health, but it was clearly going to lead to my husband divorcing me (see: disgust) and "I'm only telling you this for your own good." Would.Not.Shut.Up. Even when I was reduced to tears, Would.Not.Shut.Up.

And didn't know what the fuck s/he was talking about, either.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged

Pages in this thread: 1 2

Printer-friendly view

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0

sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website